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Old 05-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 [Show discussion]


This is for show discussion with the show as its own entity. No book talk. Using book knowledge to guess about the ending of the show is the perfect thing to discuss in this show/book thread, not this one.

Open spoilers about the show once it begins airing on the east coast/streaming in a few hours. If you have an actual spoiler (taken from leaks from cast interviews or gossip magazines or whatever) that would be an appropriate use for a spoiler box. A few of us would prefer that if you want to talk about plot points revealed in "next week on..." promos you warn people that you'll be discussing that first. Thank you.

Previous thread (with links to previous seasons found in the first OP of the season):

8.01 "Winterfell"
8.02 "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms"
8.03 "The Long Night"
8.04 "The Last of the Starks"

Show/book open spoilers discussion thread
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:11 PM
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It occurs to me that HBO may have made a minor strategy mistake with their timing and 6 episode schedule. Or I guess you could call it consumer friendly.

I subscribed to HBO Now on April 14th, the day of episode 1. You get a week of free trial, and then a month of the subscription... so my sub ends on May 21, 2 days after the last episode of the season. I suspect there's a sizable amount of people who did this, so by not squeezing out 7 episodes, everyone can get the whole final season in one HBO Now month, rather than two.

Although I may not cancel anyway, HBO Now is actually pretty nice.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:42 PM
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It occurs to me that HBO may have made a minor strategy mistake with their timing and 6 episode schedule. Or I guess you could call it consumer friendly.

I subscribed to HBO Now on April 14th, the day of episode 1. You get a week of free trial, and then a month of the subscription... so my sub ends on May 21, 2 days after the last episode of the season. I suspect there's a sizable amount of people who did this, so by not squeezing out 7 episodes, everyone can get the whole final season in one HBO Now month, rather than two.

Although I may not cancel anyway, HBO Now is actually pretty nice.
We like it, too. But we'll probably cancel it after the Deadwood movie (May 31, I believe), since we'll have seen everything we're most interested in two or three times.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:49 PM
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It occurs to me that HBO may have made a minor strategy mistake with their timing and 6 episode schedule. Or I guess you could call it consumer friendly.

I subscribed to HBO Now on April 14th, the day of episode 1. You get a week of free trial, and then a month of the subscription... so my sub ends on May 21, 2 days after the last episode of the season. I suspect there's a sizable amount of people who did this, so by not squeezing out 7 episodes, everyone can get the whole final season in one HBO Now month, rather than two.

Although I may not cancel anyway, HBO Now is actually pretty nice.
I subscribed the day before the first episode of the season aired in order to check that it works. I have already researched and learned how to cancel it properly. I'm cancelling tomorrow night after my wife and I see the finale.

We'll do a full-show re-watch around December or January once we've had some time to take a break from it. We'll either get them from the library(what we did this last time) or subscribe for another month or two then so we can stream them.

Our library has all of seasons 1-7 on Blu-ray and multiple copies of each season, so that was actually a really easy way to see the whole thing free.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:17 PM
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Although I may not cancel anyway, HBO Now is actually pretty nice.
Stick around and watch The Wire, Deadwood Rome, and The Sopranos if you haven't already. Though I think they're all on Amazon Prime, too, unlike GoT.
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:18 PM
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I am so torn with this show now.
I have been thinking of the different outcomes and I came to the conclusion that none of them would make me happy.

Would I happy if Cersei ends in the throne? No.
Would I be happy if John ends in the throne, meaning that Danny was killed along the way? No.
Would I be happy if Danny ends in the throne? No, because John is the real heir and the have the feeling that the Starks would have a word about it but we wouldnt get to see that.
Would I be happy if someone else ends in the throne? No, because it wouldnt make any sense for that to happen...

Im so conflicted...
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:33 PM
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I am so torn with this show now.
I have been thinking of the different outcomes and I came to the conclusion that none of them would make me happy.

Would I happy if Cersei ends in the throne? No.
Would I be happy if John ends in the throne, meaning that Danny was killed along the way? No.
Would I be happy if Danny ends in the throne? No, because John is the real heir and the have the feeling that the Starks would have a word about it but we wouldnt get to see that.
Would I be happy if someone else ends in the throne? No, because it wouldnt make any sense for that to happen...

Im so conflicted...
Other options are that Jon and Dany share the throne, that Jon ends on the throne but Dany is not killed, and that the wheel is actually broken, leaving no throne for anybody.
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Old 05-12-2019, 07:16 PM
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Other options are that Jon and Dany share the throne, that Jon ends on the throne but Dany is not killed, and that the wheel is actually broken, leaving no throne for anybody.
Cersei dies. We probably see that area Jon and Dany visited again. Euron dies. Varys dies.

These are the only things im counting on.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:02 PM
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Other options are that Jon and Dany share the throne, that Jon ends on the throne but Dany is not killed, and that the wheel is actually broken, leaving no throne for anybody.
I think my point is that no matter what the outcome is I will probably wont be happy with it.
I dont know why or how I got this state of mind with this show.
It seems because the show is ending and that bothers me. Silly I know.
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Old 05-12-2019, 07:15 PM
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The sturm und drang over this season is nuts.

General opinions

Ep 1: Pretty good
Ep 2: One of the best eps of the entire series
ep 3: Couldnt see it, but a lot of spectacle. (Personally i loved it)

Ep 4: THE WHOLE SHOW HAS GONE OFF THE RAILS THIS SHOW SUCKS WHATS GOING ON???????

Jeez...it was just one bad ep people. (And again i loved it too)
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:13 PM
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Watching it now. Dude, that is how Varys dies? Man, frustrating.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:47 PM
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Everyone seems to be trying to get themselves killed, either in battle or by execution. So that remains consistent.

And yes, exactly Dany -- you attack from the direction of the sun so they are blinded until you're on top of them. Eurion obviously expected that she would not be smart enough to do that.

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Old 05-12-2019, 08:48 PM
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Mad "Queen" Dany.

Uh, so everyone's faith in her was not correct.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:51 PM
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No, it's fine, Cercei. Just stand there and look out the window.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:54 PM
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Jon: "Danaey... are we the baddies?"
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:55 PM
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Jon: "Danaey... are we the baddies?"
I literally just said this to my wife.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:17 PM
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Ugh, lots to take in.

Did Jamie and Cercei die?
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:22 PM
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Ugh, lots to take in.

Did Jamie and Cercei die?
They could be alive. People survive entire castles falling on top of them every day.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:23 PM
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My death list for this episode is:

Varys
Qyburn
Gregor Clegane
Sandor Clegane
Euron

Cercei?
Jamie?



Accurate?
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:32 PM
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Accurate?
+750k KL residents.

While watching, my recurring thought was, "would it kill them to write some dialog?" It's entirely visuals. Seriously, it's all grunts and "over here! Keep moving!" and stuff. GOT used to have amazing dialog. They storyboarded this whole ep as camera shots and forgot to let the actors speak to each other.

Last edited by squeegee; 05-12-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:35 PM
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+750k KL residents.

While watching, my recurring thought was, "would it kill them to write some dialog?" It's entirely visuals. Seriously, it's all grunts and "over here! Keep moving!" and stuff. GOT used to have amazing dialog.
We had closed captioning on. Lots of background dialogue appeared that was completely inaudible to us. But it was rather derivative. Stuff like "where's my wife! Help me find my wife!" and "Run Away . . ." Etc.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:27 PM
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Ugh, lots to take in.

Did Jamie and Cercei die?
Yes, and if we’re taking bets on this episode’s title I’m going with “Last of the Lannisters.”

Which would make the final episode may be L—- — —- T————-.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:25 PM
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Well that was about what I expected.

The pale horse was a bit on the nose.

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Old 05-12-2019, 09:41 PM
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The pale horse was a bit on the nose.
I practically said that out loud. "And on a pale horse, Death."

When I saw that little girl with the wooden horse before the start of the battle, I said "Shireen. Oh God." And I was not wrong.

The Red God does like his burned offerings.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:27 PM
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On first thought, great episode! Jon's definitely going to kill Dany next episode. Who died? Varys, Cersei and Jaime, Qyburn, the Clegane family, the entire Golden Company and Lannister army, and every Dany fan's hopes and dreams. I lost track of Tyrion after the carnival of horrors started. And Grey Worm went pretty "Mad General" himself. Man, King's Landing is toast. "Queen of the Ashes" isn't metaphorical in the slightest.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:28 PM
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Oh yeah, and Urine Greyjoy.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:28 PM
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Those Targaryen rulers! You never know what you're gonna get. Another Aegon I or another Maegor. Another Aegon V "the good" or another Aerys "the mad".
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:30 PM
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Sweet Jesus

I mean seriously that was fucking over the top insane, but I loved it.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:30 PM
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So there was wildfire buried around King's Landing, but it seemed completely pointless and inconsequential compared to what Dany was doing. Also apparently dragon fire doesn't melt stone anymore, now it just explodes.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:39 PM
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Well Daernerys is her father's daughter after all.

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They could be alive. People survive entire castles falling on top of them every day.
It's frustrating that we don't actually see them die, and I imagine Daernerys will be obsessed with finding Cersei's body.

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So there was wildfire buried around King's Landing, but it seemed completely pointless and inconsequential compared to what Dany was doing. Also apparently dragon fire doesn't melt stone anymore, now it just explodes.
Yeah, with the wildfire catches I was expecting a Medieval Hiroshima; instead we got a Medieval Dresden.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:08 AM
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Loved the last bit from Previously, on Game of Thrones where Mad Dany had all those voices in her head. Recaps aren't usually that creative.
Agreed. That was an excellent moment.

In my previous post I talked about my complaints stemming from them applying tv show standards to the story, but in most cases I love their "make it a tv show" decisions. This was one example.

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And what of Tyrion? His track record for good decision-making this season is just about zero.
Absolutely. Tyrion has become an intellectual Warf. (Warf, the super strong battle master klingon, got his ass kicked by every enemy who ever set foot on the bridge just to establish how badass the enemy was.) Tyrion is now outsmarted by everyone just to establish how smart they are, which is a terrible thing to do to the character of Tyrion.

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if you want the plot to go there, you just need a scene where Bran at the end says, "It is not over. Even now, the forces of the dead begin to grow in the North. One day, they will come back."
That wouldn't work at all. We saw the Night King being made by the children of the forest, and we saw every single undead thing (except the Mountain!) die when the NK died.

The only way they come back is if the children make another NK, and there's no in-story way that can happen since the children have fought against them for millenia.

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It's frustrating that we don't actually see them die, and I imagine Daernerys will be obsessed with finding Cersei's body.
Oh lord, not another week of the equivalent of "Brienne didn't kill Stannis because they didn't show it!" type speculation. Please, anything but that.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:59 AM
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Tyrion is now outsmarted by everyone just to establish how smart they are,
Tyrion has certainly failed, but I don't think anyone who "outsmarted" him is better off than they would have been by following his advice.


I didn't see it noted by anyone else, but the backstory for the Hound and the Mountain is that the Hound's face was half burned off because his big brother, the Mountain, shoved his head in a fire when they were kids.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:21 AM
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This episode was brutal but I enjoyed it and feel it was very much in character for everyone. Some thoughts.

Varys died as he lived: jumping from side to side. You only can do that so many times.

Tyrion and Jaime's hug was wonderful.

The image of the Dragon's shadow over King's Landing goes all the way back to a vision Bran had like four seasons ago.

The theme of this episode was vengeance. The Hound literally died for his but not before he was able to teach Arya how empty it is to live your life that way. And Dany finally said, "Fuck this entire place for what you did to me and my family. A Targearyan built it and one will now tear it to the ground!". She aways wanted to give into her worst impulses but usually had Jorah or Tyrion to hold her back. No longer. Maybe Jon will reel her back. Maybe not.

It's interesting that Cersei (and Jaime) died in such a way that people within the show will never be fully sure they died. Even though she is awful, if Dany is worse I could see her become some sort of folk hero to the Smallfolk, "Maybe Cersei will come back some day to save us. I hears she's in Pentos gathering an army".

It is also right in line with this show that Cersei never had a reckoning for the terrible things she did and she got to be in her lover's arms when she died.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:34 PM
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Ok, I admit, I was totally 100% wrong. I didn't think they'd have the balls to do that. Wow.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:35 PM
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So my one confusion was how did that many Dothraki survive?
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:35 PM
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Looks like Bran is gonna be warging a dragon after all.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:36 PM
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Ok last week when I said "Burn them all.".....I didn't mean ALLLLLL Dany. Jesus, learn the definition of hyperbole.

And yes, like someone else said....seeing the wildfire go up was kinda funny.

Also...as I've said before..."Fuck prophecy."...unless Cersei is still alive somehow.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:37 PM
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I liked this episode, I'm glad they had the balls to go there. Also there was nothing that immediately jumped out as completely stupid like the last couple.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:37 PM
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I dunno man, I was bored the entire episode.

I wish Jaime had been going to kill Cersei. What's his arc now? Clegane bowl was lame, especially with the music at the death. Scorpions sure have different effectiveness from episode to episode, eh?

Dany going Mad Queen was pretty obvious, but it seems like her destruction of the city was a bit over the top, no?
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:39 PM
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I dunno man, I was bored the entire episode.

I wish Jaime had been going to kill Cersei. What's his arc now? Clegane bowl was lame, especially with the music at the death. Scorpions sure have different effectiveness from episode to episode, eh?

Dany going Mad Queen was pretty obvious, but it seems like her destruction of the city was a bit over the top, no?
"Bring me to the Iron Throne!!...well dig it up!! What? Make a new one then!"
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:42 PM
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I dunno man, I was bored the entire episode.

I wish Jaime had been going to kill Cersei. What's his arc now? Clegane bowl was lame, especially with the music at the death. Scorpions sure have different effectiveness from episode to episode, eh?

Dany going Mad Queen was pretty obvious, but it seems like her destruction of the city was a bit over the top, no?
Jaime and (probably) Cersei are dead. I was mad that Jaime went back, but I think that last scene completed his arc nicely. He didn't go bad on us, but he did go back to Cersei and had what I thought was the most touching moment you can get in an incest storyline.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:44 PM
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I wish Jaime had been going to kill Cersei. What's his arc now?
That he tried his best to be a good person, but couldn't shake his love for Cersei. Feels more real than some 'arc' idea where he kills that love.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:46 PM
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That he tried his best to be a good person, but couldn't shake his love for Cersei. Feels more real than some 'arc' idea where he kills that love.
Knowing what Cersei's done, killing that love is the obvious sensical thing.
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:02 PM
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Knowing what Cersei's done, killing that love is the obvious sensical thing.
Nah. People love terrible people all the time, even when they know they shouldn't. TBH, I actually preferred it this way than some pat redemption character arc.

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Old 05-12-2019, 09:37 PM
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Also....uhm...Team Dany for the win? I guess that was a win? Feels good to back the winner.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:39 PM
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Also....uhm...Team Dany for the win? I guess that was a win? Feels good to back the winner.
Cept for Bronn, he backed the winner for no reason now that Jamie is dead and Tyrion probably in serious trouble.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:38 PM
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So there was wildfire buried around King's Landing, but it seemed completely pointless and inconsequential compared to what Dany was doing. Also apparently dragon fire doesn't melt stone anymore, now it just explodes.
Yeah, for a minute I expected Cersei to set off a wildfire doomsday device, but apparently the boon of the Blackwater and doom of the Sept of Baelor is puny compared to a rampaging dragon.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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I don't normally attack storytelling choices, but Dany's actions were out of character. I know they were building to this, but it doesn't make sense to wait for the surrender, hear the surrender and then just decide, "You know I think I'll just kill so indiscriminately that even my own army retreats from me."

Varys was out of character as well. Very unlike him to leave himself vulnerable to getting snitched on. Old Varys would never have confided in Tyrion unless he knew it was where Tyrion already wanted to go.

Cleganebowl delivered though. And I'd bet that actor has the role of Jason in the next Friday the 13th movie sewn up if he wants it.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:50 PM
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I don't normally attack storytelling choices, but Dany's actions were out of character. I know they were building to this, but it doesn't make sense to wait for the surrender, hear the surrender and then just decide, "You know I think I'll just kill so indiscriminately that even my own army retreats from me."
I think she just told them what they wanted to hear, Grey Worm did not look like he gave a fuck when Tyrion told him to cancel the attack if they heard the bells.

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Varys was out of character as well. Very unlike him to leave himself vulnerable to getting snitched on. Old Varys would never have confided in Tyrion unless he knew it was where Tyrion already wanted to go.
I think he just sacrificed himself to push Tyrion over the edge, dude like him had to know the way things worked and now Sansa has eliminated both Tyrion and Varys. Varys dead and Tyrion pretty much on her hit list for releasing Jaime. I would say that Littlefinger did his job well.
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:42 PM
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I'm going to repeat my horrific "prediction" from last week....part of it kind of came true...

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have Dany go "mad Queen" and become a crazy vengeance-fueled maniac? She insists they attack the city, killing all the innocents along the way, like a total wipeout type thing. Jon Snow realizes this is insane and agrees to take her out, something Tyrion and Varys are clearly thinking might be necessary.

Cue dramatic scene: Jon tells Dany she must stop and turn back. "You're tearing me apart, Dany!" or something like that. She doesn't care. John has to kill Dany in order to stop her from wiping out a bunch of innocents.

Someone else kills Cercei and her hand(and Euron or whatever his name is). John is clearly the one to become king.

But....he turns it down! "I never wanted it! I won't take it." He heads to the far North, leaving Westeros.

Tyrion or Sansa becomes king/queen, though I think Tyrion is more likely since Sansa has betrayed John.


OK, so I made all that up, but it requires them to totally ruin Dany, a character they spent the entire show building up to be good(and sane!).
So yeah, they are going to ruin Dany.
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