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  #1401  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:17 AM
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I like it, but they should have put that in her opening speech to Ed and the others. A Cassandra scenario.

Which opens up an interesting question to put to the floor: in Kelly's shoes, what's the best way to prove she's telling the truth?
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  #1402  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:26 AM
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D'oh. Sorry about that.

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Finally got around to seeing it.

I admit, from reading here I thought it would be stupid, but it was pretty good. I thought it would be a useless episode, a giant reset button of stupidity, but it wasn't. It was as good as Yesterday's Enterprise, if not even All Good Things. If this be the last episode, they made the most of it.

Still a glaring plot hole. Isaac's time travel experiments were after the events of the war. John's accessing memories that didn't exist.
Isaac's final time travel experiments were after the war, but he had acquired Aranov's device well before the war (episode 1 of the first season), so it's possible that John got enough information out of pre-war material to use the device successfully (he did have the advantage of knowing what he was looking for - because Kelly could tell him what the device could actually do).
  #1403  
Old 04-27-2019, 09:19 AM
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Isaac's final time travel experiments were after the war, but he had acquired Aranov's device well before the war (episode 1 of the first season), so it's possible that John got enough information out of pre-war material to use the device successfully (he did have the advantage of knowing what he was looking for - because Kelly could tell him what the device could actually do).
Ah! Missed that. Shows the show runners are paying attention.

On a lighter note, you'd think Gordon and Ed could have landed a bit closer to the listening station.
  #1404  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:06 AM
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These two episodes lined up thematically with the previous episode, in terms of changing things about the past (people) in ways that fuck things up. The time capsule one was just a simulation, but the general idea is similar.

Now the question is whether the repaired-timeline Kelly was actually wiped successfully or if she still had the foreknowledge but decided to take one for the team, as it were.
  #1405  
Old 04-27-2019, 03:08 PM
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These two episodes lined up thematically with the previous episode, in terms of changing things about the past (people) in ways that fuck things up. The time capsule one was just a simulation, but the general idea is similar.

Now the question is whether the repaired-timeline Kelly was actually wiped successfully or if she still had the foreknowledge but decided to take one for the team, as it were.
This time - she doesn't sleep with the blue guy and her/Ed find a way to keep the balance going.

I agree however, that the overarching theme of the last several episodes (Issac/fen "you mean your better with me than without me", etc) has pretty much hammered the butterfly affect home.

Last edited by simster; 04-27-2019 at 03:09 PM.
  #1406  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:33 PM
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...

Good finale, although yeah I had problems with a robot army that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. And I think my wife got tired of me figuring out plot points before she did. ("The dead Kaylon!" "Bortus!")
They did, they shot down lots of the Lts guys.
  #1407  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:49 PM
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Did everyone forget about area weapons in the future?
  #1408  
Old 04-27-2019, 08:03 PM
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Did everyone forget about area weapons in the future?
Yes, and small unit tactics.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:47 PM
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Can you guys elaborate on area weapons and small unit tactics? Sounds interesting.
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  #1410  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:20 PM
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Can you guys elaborate on area weapons and small unit tactics? Sounds interesting.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_unit_tactics
Assault
The two major techniques of squad assault are bounded fire and advancing under the cover of suppressive fire of supporting units. Bounded fire entails having one element of the squad provide covering fire and field obscuration while the second element maneuvers forward to provide covering fire that allows the first element to leapfrog forward. This process is repeated until the maneuver element is in grenade range of the enemy positions. Advancing under the cover of supporting units requires the squad to stealthily advance towards the enemy position from a weakly held sector after the enemy has been suppressed by overwhelming fire. Once the squad has closed with the enemy it uses grenades and squad automatic fire to engage the enemy. This allows sufficient disruption of the enemy's control of their defensive front to allow other squads to advance unopposed. United States Marines squads are arranged into "Buddy Pairs" and will assault in "Buddy Rushes", ensuring that one Marine is firing at the enemy while the other is maneuvering.


Squad served heavy weapons include the grenade launcher, the RPG, the motar and the heavy machine gun.
  #1411  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:48 PM
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Area weapons are area-of-effect weapons, like grenades. At least I assume that what was meant. I've never seen the term without the "oE" part of "AoE" attacks/weapons. But then I only see the term in the context of videogame attacks: AoE vs single target, damage over time ("DOT"s), etc...

But now that it's been brought up, why the hell don't they have stun grenades based on phasar stun tech?
  #1412  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:35 PM
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I kept wondering why there were no crew-served (i.e. machine gun type) weapons in the Union base. They're the whole reason that walking in the open like the Kaylon were quit being viable on the battlefield (see early WWI for plenty of examples).
  #1413  
Old 04-27-2019, 11:46 PM
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Yeah, interesting points. I occasionally see this kind of stuff on TV and it looks cool, but this show is definitely more in the norm of ignoring all that.
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  #1414  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:39 AM
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For "area weapons" I was including large "caliber" (however that applies for energy weapons) squad weapons as well as the old standbys - mines (including claymore equivalents), grenades, mortars, artillery, napalm-equivalents, automatic sentry guns ala Aliens, and of course, nukes. Anything you can either expect to take out large numbers of combatants, or deny, well, area. You usher the Kaylon foot soldiers into a kill zone and take them all out at once. When you're fighting for the survival of your entire species, nukes are not something you can leave on the table. Let them land, hunker down, and detonate a hundred megatoner or so. Yes, they'll just switch to planetary bombardment, then you adjust.

You don't go hand-to-hand combat with the Borg, either. You make a miles-long ship that's nothing but warp engines and gun, and cut the cubes into little pieces. Or you give up.

Against the might of the Kaylons, with the sheer number of ships and foot soldiers, I don't expect you'll win. But you don't stick with small arms. Heck, ancient Romans would overwhelm you if you stuck to those tactics. The only way you can win is to out think them, not out muscle them.

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 04-28-2019 at 12:44 AM.
  #1415  
Old 04-28-2019, 04:16 PM
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I recall Deep Space Nine authors discussing how they had to "dumb down" phasers to have realistic battles.
  #1416  
Old 04-28-2019, 04:26 PM
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The star trek phasers always seemed really ridiculous since no one would ever use the continuous beam to sweep their targets. They'd always fire their beam in one place the whole time, they may as well have been shooting a bolt action rifle. If you're going to do that style of energy balls replacing bullets, you should at least have short little projectile bursts, not long beams. Every other sci-fi show seems to have figured that out.

The Kaylon head drone thing was kinda cool. Surprising but logical. Of course there's absolutely no reason given for the ridiculously bad accuracy. I guess you can say it's an homage to star wars/trek but some sort of in-universe explanation like some sort of defensive jamming/scattering/whatever system would've been nice.
  #1417  
Old 04-28-2019, 05:09 PM
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The Kaylon head drone thing was kinda cool. Surprising but logical. Of course there's absolutely no reason given for the ridiculously bad accuracy. I guess you can say it's an homage to star wars/trek but some sort of in-universe explanation like some sort of defensive jamming/scattering/whatever system would've been nice.
Or put ten guys with Gordon and Mercer, have them killed stealing a replicator.
  #1418  
Old 04-28-2019, 06:13 PM
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Isaak disabled all of the Kaylons that had commandeered the Orville by EMPing them (yet, somehow the Orville's systems were preserved, which, in terms of actual EMP, would be highly unlikely). One might imagine the EMP-like weapons would have become a standard feature of battle-ready starships, since a hostile could be fully disabled without being destroyed.

This seems like a significant thin spot in the overall writing. Was there some sort of treaty-like thing that proscribed these kind of weapons? Perhaps it might have to do with a pulse causing serious damage to stored data on a vessel, which is kind of critical for battle intelligence and the raison d'Ítre of an exploratory vessel.
  #1419  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:27 AM
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EMP isn't the magic bullet Hollywood thinks it is (Leverage, I'm looking at YOU). If it fries something, it fries everything, and it stays fried. But you can shield against it. Or you can use Voyager's biogel computers, which shouldn't be affected. (them you give a literal "computer virus".)
  #1420  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:37 AM
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Why did they bother to leave the bottom of the ocean before solving the time travel problem? Maybe I missed something, but there seemed to be nowhere to go; the challenge was breaking into the Kaylon neural network, which appeared to span the entire galaxy.

As to battle scenes, futuristic battle scenes became so stupid to me so long ago I've stopped caring about the inexplicable lack of automatic weapons, grenades, and beyond-visual-range weapons and the fact that futuristic combatants like the Kaylon would be wiped out by a few sections of today's reservists. It's just how Hollywood has done it for all my life.
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  #1421  
Old 04-29-2019, 09:46 AM
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I just have to say, tonight's show was one HELL of an episode.

And without spoiling anything, was that one musical riff an exact take from The Wrath of Khan?
Agreed on both points. There were some echoes of the Alien soundtrack when they were creeping around in dark starships, too.

Ed said he'd commanded the Union base at Epsilon Eridani - not the first time that system's been mentioned in sf (in Star Trek, it might be Vulcan's star system): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilo...ani_in_fiction

Cool to see the bombed-out, lifeless Earth.

I didn't buy that the Orville would be in such great shape for having been knocked out of orbit and then spent months at the bottom of the ocean (and why would Bortus waste power for lights on decks he wasn't even on?).

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...going to such an extreme with the trope of the bad guys not being able to shoot straight....
I know, my God, both the drones and the Kaylon ships! Yeesh. Clearly they'd all gone to the Imperial Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship.

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...I did like that new time line Ed would also go to "open up this jar of pickles" though.
Yes - good to see Alara again, too, as a brave rebel leader.

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...On a lighter note, you'd think Gordon and Ed could have landed a bit closer to the listening station.
Heh. I thought, too. Maybe they needed a little exercise after being cooped up in the shuttle for weeks? Given their diet and exercise regime, they knew they'd have to earn that Twinkie.

No reason they would have to have such alien-looking masks, though, other than to make the reveal of who it was more surprising (which it wasn't).

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For "area weapons" I was including large "caliber" (however that applies for energy weapons) squad weapons as well as the old standbys - mines (including claymore equivalents), grenades, mortars, artillery, napalm-equivalents, automatic sentry guns ala Aliens, and of course, nukes....
Now, now - don't forget independently targeting particle-beam phalanx, tactical smart missiles, sonic electronic ball-breakers, knives and sharp sticks.

For all its many nits to pick, I enjoy the show and really hope it's renewed.

Last edited by Elendil's Heir; 04-29-2019 at 09:48 AM.
  #1422  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:00 PM
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EMP isn't the magic bullet Hollywood thinks it is (Leverage, I'm looking at YOU). If it fries something, it fries everything, and it stays fried. But you can shield against it. Or you can use Voyager's biogel computers, which shouldn't be affected. (them you give a literal "computer virus".)
"Get the cheese to sickbay" Sounds Orville-esque, but Voyager was playing it straight.
  #1423  
Old 05-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Fuck yeah! Orville renewed!
  #1424  
Old 05-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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Yes!!
  #1425  
Old 05-11-2019, 05:54 PM
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Woooot! Thanks for letting us know.
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  #1426  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:00 PM
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And maybe season 4 will be on Disney streaming if Fox doesn't renew.
  #1427  
Old 05-11-2019, 10:20 PM
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That would make sense.
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  #1428  
Old 05-11-2019, 10:30 PM
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Woooohooo! I've had a rough year and this helps so much.
  #1429  
Old 05-12-2019, 01:08 AM
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Yay!
  #1430  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:02 AM
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More bortus!
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:19 AM
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More bortus!

And next year's urination ceremony will be bigger than ever!
  #1432  
Old 05-12-2019, 05:12 PM
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And next year's urination ceremony will be bigger than ever!


More Ja’loja!
  #1433  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:53 PM
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I'm going to smoke a cigarette now!
  #1434  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:28 PM
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Now the question is whether the repaired-timeline Kelly was actually wiped successfully or if she still had the foreknowledge but decided to take one for the team, as it were.
I'd considered that, but she'd only have foreknowledge of the original timeline. IF the 2nd mindwipe didn't work, from her perspective, the only difference between the "middle" timeline and the "final" timeline is Claire showing up, looking ragged in standard-issue post-apocalypse-wear, not telling her much, and giving her an injection. She might make the leap that Something Bad happened because she changed the timeline, so she should ignore her gut feeling and force herself to start a relationship with Ed, but the mindwipe taking is the simpler way for the story to go. (Also, if it didn't work, it would make the part of the journey to retrieve the substance from Alara moot in retrospect. Only the time machine and a glimpse of Alt-timeline Claire would have really been needed). Dramatically speaking, it makes more sense to let the plan work. Takes some agency away from Past Kelly, but gives meaning to the alt-future crew's work (including alt-future Kelly, most of all).

Oh, and Huzzah! for the renewal. I may grow a mustache to celebrate.

Last edited by gonzoron; 05-13-2019 at 03:29 PM.
  #1435  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:02 AM
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I'm going to smoke a cigarette now!
Slacker. I'm going to smoke eighty!
  #1436  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:42 AM
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For those who need a silly sf fix until The Orville returns, Archer, which is going into outer space for S10, premieres May 29: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWVpkp6Nqlw
  #1437  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:46 AM
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For those who need a silly sf fix until The Orville returns, Archer, which is going into outer space for S10, premieres May 29: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWVpkp6Nqlw

Again?
  #1438  
Old 05-24-2019, 11:06 AM
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Well, yeah, but that was in the present day. The next season (despite its title, Archer: 1999) is set in the fuuuuuuture!
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