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  #651  
Old 05-11-2019, 01:53 PM
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I agree that Dinklage’s accent is rough. Really rough.
  #652  
Old 05-11-2019, 06:53 PM
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If Dinklage hadn't existed, would they have tried to film this series?
  #653  
Old 05-11-2019, 06:55 PM
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If Dinklage hadn't existed, would they have tried to film this series?
I thought Jordan Prentice was going to get the role.
  #654  
Old 05-11-2019, 07:24 PM
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They would have shoved Warwick Davis in there if they had to.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:37 PM
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Interesting suggestions....but just wrong. My image of Tyrion is set forever, I guess.
  #656  
Old 05-11-2019, 08:00 PM
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I have to admit; I like Peter Dinklage, I like Tyrion, but I've never been entirely sold on Peter Dinklage as Tyrion, maybe because while he's a good actor, his attempts at a pseudoBritish accent are distracting, surrounded as he is by actors who are actually British or can at least fake it more easily.
Personally, I was OK with Peter Dinklage's performance, British accent or not. After all, he's not playing a British person, so who cares whether the accent is authentic? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the only cast member to win an Emmy Award for his performance? (Googling, he was nominated seven times and won three.)
  #657  
Old 05-11-2019, 08:10 PM
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I really have no problems with the accents. Westeros isn't precisely Europe. I think having ambiguous accents that don't quite line up with any real world Earth accents is a nice flavor to make them seem not quite human and from their own world, just as different styles of architecture or dress would. If anything, I would prefer that more of the accents be less British and sound not quite like any accent on Earth.
  #658  
Old 05-11-2019, 08:59 PM
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So...14 pages of thread. Sorry if I repeat what someone else has said, I can't wade through more than the start.

Anyone remember the flak D&D kicked up with the Theon and Sansa stuff back in season 5 ? How it was said they got so focused on Theon story and journey that they totally steamrollered Sansa? I don't think they learned much from that.

Brienne reduced to crying in her shirt about her man leaving her. Way to undercut the great moment of her knighting.

Jon brought up, not just as a rival claimant to Daenrerys but as someone who would be a better ruler. Seems highly contrary to Daenerys history, and to Jons abysmal performance.

Also, it would have been much more reasonable if Tyrion and Varys had admitted that Jon would be better for them because he his incredibly dim, and easy to manipulate. I can see Varys salivating over a well-intentioned ruler with such obvious handles and no brain.

Kind of feels like D&D think they are writing book Jon who is actually quite bright and an out-of-the-box thinker. The character they have presented through the show though, is very much an intellectual minus-variant.

And he is supposed to be a maxed-charisma person that people are drawn to? But all he does is sit in corners and mope, mixed with the occasional depressed sounding few words. (actually, he could have been suffering from depression since being murdered.)

Then the stealth fleet with the +5 repeating giant siege crossbows. Well, that came from nowhere, managed to avoid detection by both the fliers and the fortress, as well as staying out of reach of any coastal defenses of the fortress.

Bron came from nowhere too. So he managed to sneak into a highly defended enemy castle with a not-very-concealable ranged murder weapon? Its that easy to get into the chambers of enemy leaders with crossbows? What were all the battles about then?

Scene on the walls... you know, your entire leadership and fighterjet/Dragon is within range of the AA or Anti-Dragon artillery?

Missandrei couldn't have thrown that chain around Cerseis neck and jumped?

The more they leave Martins plots behind, the more the characters and plotting seems to skewer towards cliche. I feel they are trying to hammer home the whole "Secret heir is the rightful king who will rule" no matter what previous characterization may think.
  #659  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:21 PM
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Bron came from nowhere too. So he managed to sneak into a highly defended enemy castle with a not-very-concealable ranged murder weapon? Its that easy to get into the chambers of enemy leaders with crossbows? What were all the battles about then?
You made a lot of good points. But I've seen people make this same comment and that is not what happened. The scene opens on an inn. You can see Winterfell off in the distance. Of course, there is really no reason why Tyrion and Jaime would be drinking at an inn. Except to have that scene with Bronn.
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Old 05-11-2019, 09:38 PM
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You made a lot of good points. But I've seen people make this same comment and that is not what happened. The scene opens on an inn. You can see Winterfell off in the distance. Of course, there is really no reason why Tyrion and Jaime would be drinking at an inn. Except to have that scene with Bronn.
Ah, didn't notice that. A lapse of security in the celebrations after the victory is a bit more believable. Tyrion should have known better, but he is no Tywin.
  #661  
Old 05-11-2019, 10:17 PM
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Ah, didn't notice that. A lapse of security in the celebrations after the victory is a bit more believable. Tyrion should have known better, but he is no Tywin.
Tywin Lannister, who hired Arya Stark as a serving girl? That Tywin?
  #662  
Old 05-11-2019, 10:34 PM
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The more they leave Martins plots behind, the more the characters and plotting seems to skewer towards cliche. I feel they are trying to hammer home the whole "Secret heir is the rightful king who will rule" no matter what previous characterization may think.
It's hubris. And arrogance. Benioff and Weiss saved the final four episodes for themselves. But who are they? Weiss has one writing credit before G of T. Benioff has several, but they are mostly adaptations. After years of getting kudos working off Martin's source material, they acted as if it was easy. Anybody can do it. Intricate plotting, entertaining dialogue, compelling story lines...no problem, piece of cake, I guess not.
  #663  
Old 05-11-2019, 11:51 PM
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Alright, I wasn't going to post anything about this in this thread, but can we please stop the fucking GRRM worship? You know what his ending is? Nothing. He's just not going to do it. Creating an interesting beginning and middle of a story is easier than sticking a complex ending. That's why he's not even going to bother. And apparently this is his best move, because his fans are just going to assume that his ending would've been awesome with him not even bothering to do it.

The showrunners don't have the option of just deciding not to finish it, so they're stuck trying to land the complex ending. They're largely failing at it. But I'm so tired of hearing about how dumb the show writers are how much better the great GRRM would do it. Well, he's not going to, probably because he can't.

He had 9 years during the show's run to give a good ending that they could adapt. He didn't. So a lot of the criticism here should go to him, but instead people worship him even though he has completely failed here. The idea that he should be praised because of some imaginary ending he never wrote and will never write instead of being criticized is maddening.

I'm fine with criticizing the decline in the quality of writing of the show - I'm doing that as much as anyone. But I'm tired of all of the "oh the show runners are just morons who never knew how to write and only tricked audiences into thinking the first few seasons are good because of the infallible GRRM" bullshit.
  #664  
Old 05-11-2019, 11:57 PM
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Also, I disagree with everyone here that Jon would be a terrible king. Yes, he wouldn't be the best king. He wouldn't be a savvy or a clever king. But he would be a good and decent king. Some of you cast doubt on his ability to inspire people - but that's clearly shown to be false. There are a lot of ways of inspiring people. He's not getting there through great speeches or clever plots or great propaganda. He inspires people because he's willing to do what's right, and what's hard, and what needs to be done. He's willing to sacrifice himself for others, and for the good of the world. He's proven that over and over again.

Yes, he's not flawless. He feels too bound by his strong sense of honor, which would occasionally lead him to make bad or impractical decisions. But people would respect a king that always tried to do the right thing, who always acted honorably, and who always walked the walk.

Jon is not a tyrant. He doesn't want to rule. He does everything out of a sense of obligation. A duty to serve. He had to save the world because someone had to do it. He gave everything, repeatedly, to do what he felt was right and what was best for all of humanity. He brought disparate factions together. He proved his willingness to sacrifice, literally giving his life in service of humanity. He's not greedy, he's not mad for power, and he's essentially not corruptible. You could have a far, far worse king.

Given all the options, I would be 100% behind Jon as king if I were in this world.

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  #665  
Old 05-12-2019, 12:43 AM
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I'm so tired of hearing about how dumb the show writers are how much better the great GRRM would do it. Well, he's not going to, probably because he can't.
I wish I could disagree with you, but... I did think that A Dance with Dragons was a huge drop in quality.

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Jon is not a tyrant. He doesn't want to rule. He does everything out of a sense of obligation.
Yes, but he's so dumb and guileless, it would be weeks before Westeros was invaded by practically any neighboring country with a modicum of military knowledge.

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  #666  
Old 05-12-2019, 12:48 AM
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There aren't really "neighboring countries" - there are city states on the only other inhabited content, and they've shown no inclination or ability to launch a cross-sea invasion of Westeros.

And I disagree. He's an experienced field commander, and while not the best, he's not a military weakling. He'd also likely be competent enough to be able to pick decent generals. If you want to make the argument that "sure, we're told he's a competent military man, since we're shown him winning battles, but you can easily pick apart his strategies..." that really applies to everyone in Westeros, since the battle tactics in most of the battles we've seen are lacking in terms of actual military competence.
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Old 05-12-2019, 01:18 AM
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Yeah, of all the weaknesses Jon would have as king,"getting invaded" isn't one of them. The one (and possibly only) real qualification he has is as a military commander. And yeah, all his military command decisions are ridiculously bad, but I'm pretty sure every single military command decision in the entire show, by any character, is also ridiculously bad, so his military bona fides stack up quite nicely among his peers.

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  #668  
Old 05-12-2019, 07:45 AM
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but I'm pretty sure every single military command decision in the entire show, by any character, is also ridiculously bad, so his military bona fides stack up quite nicely among his peers.
I dunno, the White Walkers battle plan was actually pretty decent.
  #669  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:01 AM
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Alright, I wasn't going to post anything about this in this thread, but can we please stop the fucking GRRM worship? You know what his ending is? Nothing. He's just not going to do it. Creating an interesting beginning and middle of a story is easier than sticking a complex ending. That's why he's not even going to bother. And apparently this is his best move, because his fans are just going to assume that his ending would've been awesome with him not even bothering to do it.

The showrunners don't have the option of just deciding not to finish it, so they're stuck trying to land the complex ending. They're largely failing at it. But I'm so tired of hearing about how dumb the show writers are how much better the great GRRM would do it. Well, he's not going to, probably because he can't.

He had 9 years during the show's run to give a good ending that they could adapt. He didn't. So a lot of the criticism here should go to him, but instead people worship him even though he has completely failed here. The idea that he should be praised because of some imaginary ending he never wrote and will never write instead of being criticized is maddening.

I'm fine with criticizing the decline in the quality of writing of the show - I'm doing that as much as anyone. But I'm tired of all of the "oh the show runners are just morons who never knew how to write and only tricked audiences into thinking the first few seasons are good because of the infallible GRRM" bullshit.
Nice strawman you invented. Nobody is "worshipping" Martin, but he's clearly a better storyteller than the showrunners.

You're the one whose been babbling about the writing and plots being dumbed down for the unsophisticated masses. Make up your mind.
  #670  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:45 AM
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Nice strawman you invented. Nobody is "worshipping" Martin, but he's clearly a better storyteller than the showrunners.

You're the one whose been babbling about the writing and plots being dumbed down for the unsophisticated masses. Make up your mind.

Martin was very good at getting all his toys out as long as he was expanding the scope of his narrative. From the point where he needs to put his toys away and start contracting and tying off loose ends it's been clear Martin doesn't have a clue what to do with ~95% of his dangling plot points. D&D have clearly been given an outline of an ending and not much more, because Martin has no clue how to do much more.

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  #671  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:52 AM
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Yeah, Gendry isn't really a threat...
Agreed. Assuming a coming bloodbath, which is fair to assume, Gendry's only experience with the Iron Throne, the Iron Bank, and the Iron Islanders is, as a blacksmith, metaphorical. One way out would be for some kick-ass would-be queen to realize this about the same time she realizes she's carrying his child.
  #672  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:15 AM
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Martin was very good at getting all his toys out as long as he was expanding the scope of his narrative. From the point where he needs to put his toys away and start contracting and tying off loose ends it's been clear Martin doesn't have a clue what to do with ~95% of his dangling plot points. D&D have clearly been given an outline of an ending and not much more, because Martin has no clue how to do much more.
You may be right. I'm not sure anyone will really care what Martin comes up with going forward. On the other hand, if Martin wrote the battle of Winterfell, Jaime, Brienne, Grey Worm, The Hound and many others would have died then and there. Dead people don't have unresolved plot issues. And I also doubt he would have had the Iron Islanders hiding behind a rock...boo, lol, surprise your all dead from our magic spear throwing machines.

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Old 05-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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And yeah, all his military command decisions are ridiculously bad, but I'm pretty sure every single military command decision in the entire show, by any character, is also ridiculously bad, so his military bona fides stack up quite nicely among his peers.
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He'd also likely be competent enough to be able to pick decent generals.
Actually, I think the best military commander we've seen has been Ramsay Bolton. He was only finally defeated by the unexpected arrival of the Seventh Cavalry Knights of the Vale, so that was perhaps a scouting failure. But of course, he benefited by the stupid decisions of his opponents.

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  #674  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:38 AM
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Nice strawman you invented. Nobody is "worshipping" Martin, but he's clearly a better storyteller than the showrunners.

You're the one whose been babbling about the writing and plots being dumbed down for the unsophisticated masses. Make up your mind.
He is right that the fault lies entirely with Martin though.
  #675  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:43 AM
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Alright, I wasn't going to post anything about this in this thread, but can we please stop the fucking GRRM worship?
I'm not a GRRM worshipper. In fact, I thought the show was better than the books because they trimmed the story, and it needed trimming.

However, during the last seasons, the show has seriously lacked consistency and originality. GRRM might not write an ending as good as some hope for, but he will do (or would have done) better than that.
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  #676  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:45 AM
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They would have shoved Warwick Davis in there if they had to.
Having watched about 3 episodes of this...
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1641247/

Pretty sure it would have been a disaster.
  #677  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:55 AM
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Agreed. Assuming a coming bloodbath, which is fair to assume, Gendry's only experience with the Iron Throne, the Iron Bank, and the Iron Islanders is, as a blacksmith, metaphorical. One way out would be for some kick-ass would-be queen to realize this about the same time she realizes she's carrying his child.
Gendry would make a fine figurehead. Gendry may not know how to rule, but Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, and a few others do. When all your Kings and Queens are dead, you find someone with a claim to the throne and prop them up and run the kingdom from behind the scenes. All you need is a nice looking, pedigreed King who can be trained to not say stupid things while rubber-stamping the plans of the actual rulers.

But I suspect the scene giving Gendry a Lordship and clarifying his birth was just closure and fan service. Gendry is now one loose end we don't have to think about after the show ends. If they didn't have that scene, a lot of fans will be saying, "Jeez, we've been talking about Gendry for 8 years, and they just drop him? What happened to him? What about his royal blood?"

Last edited by Sam Stone; 05-12-2019 at 11:56 AM.
  #678  
Old 05-12-2019, 12:34 PM
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Nice strawman you invented. Nobody is "worshipping" Martin, but he's clearly a better storyteller than the showrunners.

You're the one whose been babbling about the writing and plots being dumbed down for the unsophisticated masses. Make up your mind.
The book/show spoiler thread is a better place for this discussion, so I replied there. If you (and this goes for everyone) want to continue debating the merits of the show writers vs GRRM, it'd be better to take it to that thread.
  #679  
Old 05-12-2019, 12:57 PM
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Ha, the internet has totally turned against GoT now. Here's a reddit thread for an example.

A bunch of out of context interview clips in which the cast was basically resisting interviewers attempts to get spoilers = proof of the worst show ever. People are just competing to go overboard to say just how bad everything is, competing to see who can bash it the most.

Many of these same people were just singing the praises of how amazing 8.03 was just a couple of weeks ago.

It's not that it's wrong to be critical of season 8 - I've done a lot of that here - it's just that I find it pathetic that people can't form their own opinions. There's a thread in cafe society now that involves beer and wine snobbery and how people basically will tell you if a beer or wine is good based on how they're supposed to think, or how they think other people think, rather than coming up with their own opinions. It's sort of the same thing here. When they thought we were all supposed to love Game of Thrones, they throw lavish praise onto season 8, and then when the internet hive mind starts to turn, and it becomes fashionable to be critical of season 8, suddenly everyone is jumping in with "OMG it's the worst season ever! no one involved in the show can possibly create anything good!"

I think the SDMB is largely immune to this, and that's why I come here to discuss these things. I think most of you have very much formed your own opinions. But the larger internet is just trying to fit in and ride the wave of praise or disappointment, whatever they perceive to be happening in the hive mind.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-12-2019 at 12:58 PM.
  #680  
Old 05-12-2019, 01:01 PM
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Gendry would make a fine figurehead. Gendry may not know how to rule, but Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, and a few others do. When all your Kings and Queens are dead, you find someone with a claim to the throne and prop them up and run the kingdom from behind the scenes. All you need is a nice looking, pedigreed King who can be trained to not say stupid things while rubber-stamping the plans of the actual rulers.
Honestly, it's hard to tell what the King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms even does aside from managing relationships with major nobles. Even the military is largely regional. That's what a "Warden" is - it's the regional commander-in-chief of the military.

In ASOIAF/GOT canon this is not an unimportant thing. The story we're watching has characters who were veterans of the last invasion of Westeros, the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Invasions of Westeros are still very much a part of recent history and concern to these folks. I mean, the fact the continent is a single state is because of an invasion, one not much less recent to them than the American Revolution is to us.

The only reason the disparate regions even have to rebel is if the monarch is a particularly egregious ass-hat. You have to be an actual sociopath to have a rebellion against you.
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  #681  
Old 05-12-2019, 01:32 PM
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Honestly, it's hard to tell what the King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms even does aside from managing relationships with major nobles. Even the military is largely regional.
At the start of the show, the military was only regional.

There was a scene where Cersei asked Joffrey what he planned to do as king and he talked about creating a royal army. He complained it was ridiculous that the crown didn't have its own army.
  #682  
Old 05-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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Isn't it true that the episode where Tyrion killed Tywin aired on Father's Day? Well, today is Mother's Day....
  #683  
Old 05-12-2019, 02:13 PM
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The book/show spoiler thread is a better place for this discussion, so I replied there. If you (and this goes for everyone) want to continue debating the merits of the show writers vs GRRM, it'd be better to take it to that thread.
Thanks. I was going to say something, but even imaginary books should be discussed in the book thread.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:08 PM
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8.05 thread
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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I wasn't talking about the technical ability to replace it in post, which I know is trivial, but to change it on their HBO GO stream while still leaving it paused at the same place when I returned to it.
This is also interesting enough to me that I asked someone with some professional expertise who has allowed me to quote:

"well i don't think there's any doubt that it's possible... here's technically what you have to do:
1) Invalidate the remote resource (the GOT stream -- now version 2 instead of version 1)
(2) Have some way for the player (you, local) to know that the resource's remote version has changed, and therefore invalidate your own local cache (the next seconds/minutes that you pre-downloaded to guard against buffer underflows).
(3) The local service then refills its "next few seconds" cache with new downloaded material

as to the specific question about if Schrdinger's Frame (the newly displayed frame sans coffee cup) is the same frame number as the one you paused or is say, that frame number plus 1, :

"could work either way."

I think what makes it seem non-trivial is that we think in terms of previous technology. Like grandma saying, "When I pause the VHS why is the film not melting the frame?"
  #686  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:22 PM
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At the start of the show, the military was only regional.

There was a scene where Cersei asked Joffrey what he planned to do as king and he talked about creating a royal army. He complained it was ridiculous that the crown didn't have its own army.
Of course, one can see his frustration. Even in the last show Cersei's army was largely Lannister-raised troops and mercenaries.

In a feudal system, creating a national army runs into the obvious problem that EVERYTHING is decentralized. It's a cool idea to raise a royal army, but for that you need lots of royal money and subjects to hire from and food to feed to your soldiers. In a feudal society, the problem the King faces is that the lands under his sovereingty are controlled by some other noble, who taxes the peasants and mines the iron and raises the soldiers. Almost everything is outsourced. I mean, that's what feudalism is.

The Iron Throne controls a small area around King's Landing, the Crownlands or whatever they're called, so it has some economy. But it doesn't control most of the country, so if you want soldiers from the Reach or the North or wherever, you have to ask the bosses of those places - and they in turn are dependent to varying extents on THEIR "Bannermen," as they're called in this universe, which again is pretty consistent with the feudal systems that have really existed. And we know that the Iron throne is already in a shitload of debt to start the story.
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  #687  
Old 05-14-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Honestly, it's hard to tell what the King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms even does aside from managing relationships with major nobles....
Well, you could go with the "Be crazy and burn people" leadership model of Aerys, or the "Drink, whore and eat" model of Robert.
  #688  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:41 PM
Dale Sams is online now
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Personally, I was OK with Peter Dinklage's performance, British accent or not. After all, he's not playing a British person, so who cares whether the accent is authentic? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the only cast member to win an Emmy Award for his performance? (Googling, he was nominated seven times and won three.)
Exactly. He does a great Tyrion accent. Some people are after doing there role for so long just doing a voice....what the heck accent is Hemsworths Thor?? I can imitate it but it's not English or Australian.
  #689  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Of course, one can see his frustration. Even in the last show Cersei's army was largely Lannister-raised troops and mercenaries.

In a feudal system, creating a national army runs into the obvious problem that EVERYTHING is decentralized. It's a cool idea to raise a royal army, but for that you need lots of royal money and subjects to hire from and food to feed to your soldiers. In a feudal society, the problem the King faces is that the lands under his sovereingty are controlled by some other noble, who taxes the peasants and mines the iron and raises the soldiers. Almost everything is outsourced. I mean, that's what feudalism is.

The Iron Throne controls a small area around King's Landing, the Crownlands or whatever they're called, so it has some economy. But it doesn't control most of the country, so if you want soldiers from the Reach or the North or wherever, you have to ask the bosses of those places - and they in turn are dependent to varying extents on THEIR "Bannermen," as they're called in this universe, which again is pretty consistent with the feudal systems that have really existed. And we know that the Iron throne is already in a shitload of debt to start the story.
Historically, the Targaryens powerbase has been dragons, not armies. As the dragons faded, so did their power. Aegon V became obsessed with the idea that he needed dragons to get enough power over the nobles to force his reforms through. (Actual rights for peasants). That led to the Summerhall tragedy, where many of the Targaryens perished. Leading to the Aerys the Mad inheriting the throne, and the small Targaryen line in the days of Robert and Ned.
  #690  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:05 AM
Acsenray is offline
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Wrong thread
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*I'm experimenting with ē, ēm, and ēs as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender. (I am also contemplating the spellings /m/s, /m/s, e/em/es, Ē/Ēm/Ēs, /m/s, /m/s, E/Em/Es.)

Last edited by Acsenray; 05-15-2019 at 06:09 AM.
  #691  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:18 AM
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Colibri is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
*More than anything, the lid just looks wrong for Starbucks--unless they use a different shape of lid for talls, which my wife and I never order.
The actual source of the coffee cup has been identified. It was from the Paper Cup coffee shop in Belfast. The round logo looks vaguely like Starbucks in bad light.
  #692  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:11 AM
Dewey Finn is offline
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I'm amused that article says, "Its clearly not even from Starbucks! The nearest Starbucks is miles away." Not, "There's not even a Starbucks in this country or this continent." But instead, it's there but it's not that close. Just goes to show just how ubiquitous these global brands are.
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