Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #651  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:17 PM
Mijin's Avatar
Mijin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 8,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I only wish that were sarcastic. Your analysis of the writers of the show borders on the ludicrous, both because who cares about your beliefs of their work habits, and also because your beliefs are almost certainly incorrect.

Discussion of the show itself is interesting. Your snide insults about the show's creators are dumb and irrelevant.
Firstly, wow, overreact much? My sentence is not particularly rude about anyone, all writers necessarily overlook lots of things, you can't think of everything.

Secondly the people I have argued against have speculated on what the writers were doing and thinking. Only one side of this particular issue is allowed to do that?
  #652  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:51 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellestal View Post
I haven't re-watched that but my impression from reading stuffs was that he was completely open and unabashed about what he had done. He had "plead guilty", so to speak.
I've rewatched the scene recently, and yes, he didn't hide nor deny what he had done. He rather flaunted it, in fact.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 05-16-2019 at 12:52 PM.
  #653  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:05 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Firstly, wow, overreact much? My sentence is not particularly rude about anyone, all writers necessarily overlook lots of things, you can't think of everything.

Secondly the people I have argued against have speculated on what the writers were doing and thinking. Only one side of this particular issue is allowed to do that?
Maybe it's an overreaction. I don't think it is; I think it's worth calling out silly, meanspirited, and dumb arguments that aren't about the show. YMMV. If I, or anyone, is trying to justify the artistic decisions within the show by talking about how hardworking and goodhearted the show creators are, feel free to call that out as well.
  #654  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:31 PM
drachillix is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: 192.168.0.1
Posts: 9,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Looks like they're calling it The Bells.
The first thing I thought when they started ringing was WAAAAY back varyis mad a comment about hating the bells.

The bells ring for horror

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwB-FkyWZU
__________________
Rumor has it, I fix computers. Sometimes it even works after I fix it...
  #655  
Old 05-16-2019, 02:11 PM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Your analysis of the writers of the show borders on the ludicrous, both because who cares about your beliefs of their work habits, and also because your beliefs are almost certainly incorrect.

Discussion of the show itself is interesting. Your snide insults about the show's creators are dumb and irrelevant.
Is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's criticism / insult regarding the writers relevant?
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com
  #656  
Old 05-16-2019, 02:45 PM
Exapno Mapcase is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY but not NYC
Posts: 31,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Discussion of the show itself is interesting. Your snide insults about the show's creators are dumb and irrelevant.
Who are we allowed to insult while being smart and relevant?

Please answer in list form.
  #657  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:06 PM
2nd Law is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Slug's back yard
Posts: 992
What I've been wondering is -- what happened to winter? Was the coming "Long Night" just a function of the Night King, or is there still going to be a twenty year winter that starves virtually everyone?
  #658  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:11 PM
DrCube is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Caseyville, IL
Posts: 7,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Law View Post
What I've been wondering is -- what happened to winter? Was the coming "Long Night" just a function of the Night King, or is there still going to be a twenty year winter that starves virtually everyone?
Night King died a couple of episodes ago and it's still winter. It may not be a twenty year winter, but one of my early hypotheses -- that this multi-year season stuff was magical/caused by the White Walkers, and would go back to normal four-per-year seasons after they were defeated -- doesn't seem to have panned out.
  #659  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:28 PM
Ellis Dee is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's criticism / insult regarding the writers relevant?
He's not insulting them. He's saying that after pestering them about his character, they finally had to explain to him that they weren't looking to workshop the script with the actors. More specifically, not with him.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-16-2019 at 03:28 PM.
  #660  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:28 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's criticism / insult regarding the writers relevant?
Not watching a video, not sure who that dude is, and anyway you mispronounced his first name. [edit: googled, it's the actor who played Jaime, still not especially interested in watching a Reddit video, nor do I especially give a wet fart about anyone's insults of the show's creators.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Who are we allowed to insult while being smart and relevant?

Please answer in list form.
No thanks.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-16-2019 at 03:31 PM.
  #661  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:52 PM
TroutMan's Avatar
TroutMan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,670
On a lighter note: despite defending the last episode in some ways, I will freely admit that it would have been much better with just a little tweak to the soundtrack.
  #662  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:02 PM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
He's not insulting them. He's saying that after pestering them about his character, they finally had to explain to him that they weren't looking to workshop the script with the actors. More specifically, not with him.
Um … I think one of the main actors on a show saying the writers "don't care" about an actor's insights into the character he plays is a significant red flag. As someone in that reddit thread mentioned, actors can have tremendous insight into a character's thoughts and motivations. The actor has been portraying that character for years. He / she often has a better feel for how the character would react in given situations than writers do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
… nor do I especially give a wet fart about anyone's insults of the show's creators.
The insult in the video (which is less than two minutes long, by the way) is implied; it's more of a behind-the-scenes look at how the writers handled their task. They told Coster-Waldau essentially "You're an actor; just say the words."

This is in contrast to another massively popular (and arguably much better done) series, the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Kevin Feige made it a point several times to consider the opinions of the actors who play the characters, as well as where they think the character arc might be leading.

Look, I get it; you guys don't want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners. I think many people feel the show's quality in terms of plotting and writing has declined significantly in the last couple of seasons, even as the visual effects have become more impressive.
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com
  #663  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:19 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Um … I think one of the main actors on a show saying the writers "don't care" about an actor's insights into the character he plays is a significant red flag. As someone in that reddit thread mentioned, actors can have tremendous insight into a character's thoughts and motivations. The actor has been portraying that character for years. He / she often has a better feel for how the character would react in given situations than writers do.
His criticism might be a workplace criticism, but I'm not especially interested in it. I'm interested in discussing the work itself.
Quote:
Look, I get it; you guys don't want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners.
In my experience, sentences that begin "I get it" end by disproving the beginning.

Be as critical of the writers and showrunners as you want. Criticize their dress sense, their choice in life partners, their work habits, whatever. But don't expect me to care about it. I don't even know their names, much less care about them. I care about the show itself.

Criticisms of the show are interesting. Criticisms of the people involved are not.
  #664  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:21 PM
Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 28,031
It's a different way of creating a show (or a movie or a play). Some writers want a collaborative effort with the actors. Christopher Guest, for instance, gives the actors an outline of the plot and then lets them improvise. Others want more control. Neither approach is more correct.
  #665  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:29 PM
Biffster's Avatar
Biffster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
It's a different way of creating a show (or a movie or a play). Some writers want a collaborative effort with the actors. Christopher Guest, for instance, gives the actors an outline of the plot and then lets them improvise. Others want more control. Neither approach is more correct.

Larry David also favours the improvisational approach.
  #666  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:38 PM
Bruce Wayne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's criticism / insult regarding the writers relevant?
He wasn’t the only one.
  #667  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:39 PM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
His criticism might be a workplace criticism, but I'm not especially interested in it. I'm interested in discussing the work itself.
...

I care about the show itself.
Oh, well, you got me beat, then! I've just been watching this show for several years because I like dragons! Golly, I'll just hush my mouth!

Quote:
Criticisms of the show are interesting. Criticisms of the people involved are not.
Sheesh.

I (and others) have been criticizing the show, and the way the writers and showrunners have been creating the show, for some time now. We appreciated the nuanced and layered approach to the characters, and the world, and we feel that deft touch has been notably absent the last couple of seasons. Newsflash: That's the fault of the writers and the showrunners.

But if you want to just gush about how fantastic Drogon looked while he was blowing up King's Landing … hey, have at it. I'll even gush along with you.

You know, since I like dragons and all.
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com
  #668  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:48 PM
Ellis Dee is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Look, I get it; you guys don't want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners. I think many people feel the show's quality in terms of plotting and writing has declined significantly in the last couple of seasons, even as the visual effects have become more impressive.
No, you clearly don't get it. Criticism of the show is fine. I've criticized it myself many times in these threads, including this one.

It's the pathetic and desperate fanboy whining that's annoying.
  #669  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:52 PM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
It's the pathetic and desperate fanboy whining that's annoying.
Just to be clear: Is it your sense that's what I and others in this thread are doing?
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com
  #670  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:46 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
But if you want to just gush about how fantastic Drogon looked while he was blowing up King's Landing … hey, have at it. I'll even gush along with you.
If I may quote you further:

Sheesh. Just to be clear: Is it your sense that's what I and others in this thread are doing?
  #671  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:53 PM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
If I may quote you further:

Sheesh. Just to be clear: Is it your sense that's what I and others in this thread are doing?
To a large degree, yes.

But I've said my piece. Enjoy the show.
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com
  #672  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:10 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post


I don't think people are saying that Arya took the pale horse as a sign of death, but that we, as the audience, could.

Or are you saying that a show can't use symbolism with their audience unless the in-show universe has the same symbolism?
I'd say it's sloppy (or lazy) to rely on one particular cultural/religious belief that is not part of your story world, in order to get some desired emotional effect.



If we were meant to take that very extended scene of Arya seeing a horse and being amazed at seeing a horse (why? there were standing buildings all around--what kept any of them from being stables that had sheltered a horse?) as having particular symbolic import, then, yes: that symbol's meaning should have been established in-story.

But that's my opinion. I'd be interested if anyone has a counter-example of a highly-regarded story that depends on a symbol from 'the real world' for its impact. I mean, if you look at any fantasy story you can always simply declare that this element or that is intended to reflect some aspect of Christianity or Shinto or whatever. But with the exception of stories explicitly written as allegories (such as the Narnia books of C.S. Lewis), the finding of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols is usually just guesswork.

In other words, was there a scene in, for example, any of the first three Star Wars movies that depended on the audience's knowledge of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols for its emotional power?

I'm thinking the answer is 'no'---the power of those scenes came from what was established in-story, in accordance with the basic story archetypes employed. There was no 'ah, a pale horse means X!' or 'ah, a reference to the seven plagues, which means Y!' or 'ah, that looks like an ema plaque, so that means Z!' or any such specific call-backs to real-world symbols.

It's an interesting topic and I don't claim to be an expert about it. But I do think that if people think through successful fantasy stories, they won't see a reliance on real-world symbols as engines for connecting with the audience.
  #673  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:01 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
To a large degree, yes.

But I've said my piece. Enjoy the show.
Huh. I've not said a single thing about Drogon's appearance, and hardly anything about the appearance of any aspect of the show. If that's what you're taking away from my multiple posts about the multifaceted motives of Dany and about how it's reflected in dialogue, it clues me in as to how you analyze other things as well, so I guess it's helpful to know that. Cool beans.
  #674  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:54 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,811
LHOD, why so touchy? Are you close personal friends with someone who works on the show or something? I don’t see anything out of bounds about the posts that seemed to set you off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
Oh, in that case, in earlier seasons, at various points characters had to travel to and from King's Landing. Typically this was handled by showing them traveling and having adventures for like 4 or 5 straight episodes, and these travelogue stories are probably most people's fondest memories of the show. It's certainly what led to the audience falling in love with Arya, I think, and Jaime as well. (I think Brienne was beloved the moment she appeared on-screen and has been ever since.)

Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances in between scenes of a single episode.

Worse, Cersei was pregnant last season, then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) -- several by the guy who got her pregnant -- and after all that her belly was still flat as a board.

Yes, all of this.
  #675  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:10 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 17,241
I wonder how this series of threads will end?

Not sure about this new LHoD v Sauron bloodfued subplot. I figure it'll get resolved quickly.

All the fans obviously want SenorBeef to buy it somehow. I predict an Orient Express deal, killed seven different ways in his sleeper car/castle.
  #676  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:07 AM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
I'd say it's sloppy (or lazy) to rely on one particular cultural/religious belief that is not part of your story world, in order to get some desired emotional effect.
I agree. Although of course readers and viewers are expected to assume that most of what applies to the real world they're familiar with applies to the fictional world (unless stated otherwise, seasons don't last for years, for instance). Which includes cultural elements. Wearing a golden band on your head means that you're the king, for instance. The religion of the seven is pretty much a copy/paste of Christianism and its depiction assumes that the viewer will be familiar with this religion and that his expectations about the beliefs, religious behavior, ect...will be based on Christianism. The writers didn't feel the need to explain the concept of sin to the audience, even though it's of upmost importance during the High Sparrow subplot and it's not an universal concept, for instance.

So, the border between real world symbolism that the viewers can be expected to understand readily and real world symbolism whose inclusion can be considered as sloppy writing is fuzzy.


For the record, I was unaware of the "pale horse" symbolism myself (presumably, it's a concept much more familiar to a culturally Anglo-saxon audience), and even if I had been, it wouldn't have crossed my mind that a white horse should be assumed to be a "pale horse" and that I should assume that the scene had something to do with death. It seems a far-fetched idea to me, even for a viewership familiar with the concept. I would assume a white horse to be just a white horse.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #677  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:33 AM
Ellis Dee is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Just to be clear: Is it your sense that's what I and others in this thread are doing?
No, that snark of mine was unfair and I'd like to apologize to you for that.

I was more thinking of things like the petition.
  #678  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:24 AM
Sauron is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
No, that snark of mine was unfair and I'd like to apologize to you for that.

I was more thinking of things like the petition.
Thanks very much. I've been a bit more contentious in this thread than I intended, and for that I apologize as well.
__________________
Take a look at my book, The Man Rules! smashwords.com/books/view/336678. Dopers get a 40% discount with this coupon code: UQ25Y
Check out my blog! followthemanrules.blogspot.com

Last edited by Sauron; 05-17-2019 at 08:24 AM.
  #679  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:51 AM
jsc1953 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 10,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
I
For the record, I was unaware of the "pale horse" symbolism myself (presumably, it's a concept much more familiar to a culturally Anglo-saxon audience), and even if I had been, it wouldn't have crossed my mind that a white horse should be assumed to be a "pale horse" and that I should assume that the scene had something to do with death. It seems a far-fetched idea to me, even for a viewership familiar with the concept. I would assume a white horse to be just a white horse.
"Pale horse" is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon. But I'm both culturally Anglo-Saxon and culturally Christian, and the symbolism never occurred to me, either. I thought it was just a white horse.
  #680  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:38 AM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is online now
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,218
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
"Pale horse" is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon.
Actually, among the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Conquest rides a white horse, War rides a red horse, Famine rides a black horse, and Death rides a pale horse (the word in Greek means green, greenish-yellow, or ashen). The horse Arya rides is clearly white, so strictly going by Revelations it means Conquest.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-17-2019 at 09:39 AM.
  #681  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:04 AM
HammerJoe is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 94
Something that is not sitting all with me is the of the episode with Arya.

We are to believe that somehow she managed to survive that carnage when all around her are burned corpses and she is the only one standing and then a white horse just happens to be there waiting for her and she rides down the street with no other survivors that we can see?????

What if she actually died and it's just a ghost?

I am hoping it wasn't just another case of plot armor... This one would be worse than episode 3.
The only thing is that i don't see the purpose for the storyline. Her arc should be over now that Cersei is gone.

Last edited by HammerJoe; 05-17-2019 at 10:06 AM.
  #682  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:11 AM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,983
It's plot armor, come on.
  #683  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:16 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,641
Arya's arc has more than a little of The Count of Monte Cristo in it. SPOILERS FOR A BOOK MORE THAN A CENTURY OLD!!!!!

What makes The Count such a phenomenal book isn't just its slow burn or its dastardly plotting. The ultimate scene--in which The Count forgives the primary villain, in order to cut himself loose from his life of vengeance--is among the most satisfying plot twists in literature, IMO.

Arya's redemption isn't nearly so satisfying, but c'mon, Dumas is a high freakin bar to clear. Still, her arc parallels the Count's, I think.
  #684  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:16 AM
TroutMan's Avatar
TroutMan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
It's plot armor, come on.
I'm sure if Arya had been randomly burned up by the dragon, there would have been no complaints about a stupid death. The fans would have appreciated the realism and complimented the writers.
  #685  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:22 AM
Cheesesteak's Avatar
Cheesesteak is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lovely Montclair, NJ
Posts: 13,278
I think one of the takeaways from the battle of Winterfell episode is that the carnage shown on the screen is just the worst bits of what happened. Daenerys did not kill everyone in King's Landing (it just looked that way), so it should not be ridiculous to believe Arya survived by being more lucky than average.

The real question is, does she take the Hound's advice to heart and stop trying to be a vengeful killing machine, or does she make an attempt on Daenerys to protect the realm?
  #686  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:38 AM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak View Post
I think one of the takeaways from the battle of Winterfell episode is that the carnage shown on the screen is just the worst bits of what happened. Daenerys did not kill everyone in King's Landing (it just looked that way), so it should not be ridiculous to believe Arya survived by being more lucky than average.
I'm sure thats what they will show next episode, but she was clearly zig zagging back and forth over the entire city making sure she covered the whole thing in fire.
  #687  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:02 AM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
But that's my opinion. I'd be interested if anyone has a counter-example of a highly-regarded story that depends on a symbol from 'the real world' for its impact. I mean, if you look at any fantasy story you can always simply declare that this element or that is intended to reflect some aspect of Christianity or Shinto or whatever. But with the exception of stories explicitly written as allegories (such as the Narnia books of C.S. Lewis), the finding of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols is usually just guesswork.
I guess it depends on how highly regarded you consider Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. The King's Cross chapter was explicitly a Jesus allegory (Rowling even confirms it).

I'd say that there are plenty of references from out side of stories, we just don't realize them (whether Christian, or Shakespearian, or what-have-you) because they are so ingrained in our culture so they seem normal.

As clairobscur pointed out that a lot of the Faith of the Seven and the High Septon's actions require some basic understanding of medieval Catholicism.
  #688  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:07 AM
Blank Slate's Avatar
Blank Slate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerJoe View Post
Something that is not sitting all with me is the of the episode with Arya.

We are to believe that somehow she managed to survive that carnage when all around her are burned corpses and she is the only one standing and then a white horse just happens to be there waiting for her and she rides down the street with no other survivors that we can see?????

What if she actually died and it's just a ghost?

I am hoping it wasn't just another case of plot armor... This one would be worse than episode 3.
The only thing is that i don't see the purpose for the storyline. Her arc should be over now that Cersei is gone.
In the beginning of the final episode we'll see her arriving in Winterfell, having ridden all night.
  #689  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:19 AM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,075
I've been too busy to keep up with the thread this week, so I haven't been participating much. But I'd like to say that the quality of the discussion has been unusually high.

The pro-flip side, I think, made a pretty convincing case and I feel better that this big (apparent) twist is pretty justified.

I normally hate handholding in TV shows. Where the writers put in some sort of explanation of what the viewers should've picked up upon anyway just in case they're not very observant. But I do think that in this case, it's such a long, slow buildup to such an important change that it would've actually benefited from some handholding at the moment of the flip. A series of flashbacks showing Danerys at her worst, ending with the moment Missandei said "Dracarys" would've perhaps been a bit cheesy, but it could've been effective. Or having her hear voices - not to indicate insanity, but to give voice to her inner monologue at the moment. Or having an in-world reminder of a significant component as to why she's making that flip - for example, if she landed near Jon, and heard the Northman chanting to install Jon as king. Something along those lines to justify her flip in the moment would've made the narrative smoother and more satisfying.

But I don't think at all that this was an unjustified turn at all. In fact, of all the bad shit the writers have done over the past 2 seasons, slowly removing Danerys' support system and the moderating influence of her advisors, and making her feeling increasingly more isolated and threatened, is one thing they did really well.

I think some people have a hard time with it because they like Danerys and root for her and are uncomfortable with the idea that they supported someone with tyrannical tendencies all along, so they decided the writers are terrible and just made her a villain at the end randomly for shock value. I'm not saying every one who was upset with this is like that - some people in this thread justified their feelings very well - but in terms of a lot of average viewers crying bullshit on twitter, this would describe them.

In retrospect, it's actually a clever way to tell a story. Essentially, Danerys is always pursuing a tyranical agenda. The growth of her own power is the most important thing for her. But conveniently, she came to power in a bad place full of bad people, so most of the people she was harming with her tyranny were bad guys, and so we saw her as a liberator and generally good guy. But that was essentially a happy coincidence - all the people in her way in her rise to power were worse than she was. But if they weren't, she would've still pursued power at any cost, because she felt like she was rising to her destiny. We see hints of this all along, but never have to really confront it, because she's dunking on slavers and other assholes and her advisors are good people who are moderating the worst of her impulses. But it's pretty clear that she was essentially lucky that her path to coming to power had her beating worse people than her. Her primary goal was always her own power, with freeing slaves and all that stuff being a nice bow to wrap it with.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-17-2019 at 11:20 AM.
  #690  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:38 AM
nofloyd is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 261
"it's such a long, slow buildup to such an important change that it would've actually benefited from some handholding at the moment of the flip"

I think they were nearly there!
We see her support system (people, dragons, troops) cut away in pieces in season 7 and 8.

Then Varys worked against her. She warns Tyrion not to betray her again, no more chances ...
So he promptly releases Jaime.

One small scene of someone telling her Jaime is gone before she gets on the dragon and I would well believe it:

Tyrion keeps harping on stopping the assault when Bells ring for surrender ...
But Tyrion has released Jaime ...
What if it's a trap/double cross ...
Tyrion has been plotting with his siblings all along ...

Dracarys.

Last edited by nofloyd; 05-17-2019 at 11:39 AM. Reason: spelling
  #691  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:44 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
Clearly there's a knob on the dragon's back with settings for "Execute by frying/Melt Stone/Blow Up Stone" settings. "Dracarys" is just the start button.
Huh. I'd've thought there'd be an app for that.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #692  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:55 AM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
"Pale horse" is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon. But I'm both culturally Anglo-Saxon and culturally Christian, and the symbolism never occurred to me, either. I thought it was just a white horse.
I understand that it's a Christian concept. What I meant is that it might be more frequently refered to in the anglo-saxon world than in France, for whatever reason, since pretty much everybody here seem to be familiar with it and someone has expressed surprise that I had never encountered it before.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 05-17-2019 at 11:56 AM.
  #693  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:59 AM
eunoia's Avatar
eunoia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Outside Poker Flat
Posts: 1,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Well, they'll have to be extremely creative now to make Danaerys into a good person. Unless we learn that she's been warged by Bran, or replaced by a faceless man, it's difficult to come back from burning children alive out of spite.
I won't go as far as saying "good person". Is a "good" monarch even possible? Wouldn't a good monarch immediately abolish the monarchy forever and fight to destroy other monarchies? Daenerys is on the record about her overarching goal of freeing the most oppressed and enslaved, she's on the record about relying on fear if she can't have love and on the record about knowing about all the disloyalty around her as news of Jon's parentage is spread throughout Westeros. Perhaps we don't have the whole story.

CarnalK's post explaining how Daenerys already knew about Jon and Tyrion's treacherous part in weakening her claim to the Iron Throne set me to wondering why viewers are focusing on her seeming 180-degree shift in character during the battle while giving Jon a pass on straight disobeying his queen and the three Lannisters a pass on their extremely strange behaviour before the battle. How does all of King's Landing know what ringing the bell was supposed to signal? Is it the same as what we thought it meant? Something very fishy is going on and we may not have all the facts, just like we never have all the facts about real monarchies that still inexplicably exist on planet earth in 2019.

There are some powerful outs still possible.

Last edited by eunoia; 05-17-2019 at 12:02 PM.
  #694  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:18 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by eunoia View Post

CarnalK's post explaining how Daenerys already knew about Jon and Tyrion's treacherous part in weakening her claim to the Iron Throne set me to wondering why viewers are focusing on her seeming 180-degree shift in character during the battle while giving Jon a pass on straight disobeying his queen and the three Lannisters a pass on their extremely strange behaviour before the battle. How does all of King's Landing know what ringing the bell was supposed to signal? Is it the same as what we thought it meant? Something very fishy is going on and we may not have all the facts, just like we never have all the facts about real monarchies that still inexplicably exist on planet earth in 2019.

There are some powerful outs still possible.
Dany didn't give Jon an order, she asked him not to tell, begged actually.
  #695  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:25 PM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,075
It was an order she didn't expect him to follow, hence begging. It was still clearly an order, and she would view it as violating an order of his queen.
  #696  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:36 PM
nate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 877
Man, there is a complete disconnect between me and those here who think Dany burning the entire city made any sense based on past episodes. Again, there is some major gap between A) saying she was always a restrained tyrant and B) deciding to indiscriminately kill thousands of innocent civilians AFTER they have surrendered. This huge gap is being glossed over completely. I've read many ways this could be explained in the next episode, but going from past events, pretending there was a slow build to her going mad is just doesn't make sense.
  #697  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:40 PM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,075
She didn't go mad. She made a deliberate choice, after realizing that

1) She would rule Westeros no matter the cost, because she is completely invested it in as her destiny
2) She could not rule by love, by gaining the adoration or support of the Westerosi, nor marry Jon to rule jointly to gain that support
and 3) a relatively peaceful conquest of King's Landing makes it likely that, through some means, Jon would be thrust into taking the role of King - and while he isn't interested in it, he still betrayed her by letting the word about his claim get out at all, and that it would likely, become popularly known, giving great public pressure to install Jon as king

that she would then have to rule by fear. She explicitly states this. Murdering half of King's Landing is a deliberate attempt to ensure that she rules by demonstrating absolute brutality to any opposition to her rule.

Edit: She decided before the battle that this was what she would do. The moment of what appears to be a decision is actually just her basically steeling herself to actually go through with her plan.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-17-2019 at 12:44 PM.
  #698  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:54 PM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,600
Yes, so the argument goes that Dany decided to a Rains of Castamere on King's Landing. And no one thought Tywin Lannister was a madman.
  #699  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:06 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
She didn't go mad. She made a deliberate choice, after realizing that

1) She would rule Westeros no matter the cost, because she is completely invested it in as her destiny
2) She could not rule by love, by gaining the adoration or support of the Westerosi, nor marry Jon to rule jointly to gain that support
and 3) a relatively peaceful conquest of King's Landing makes it likely that, through some means, Jon would be thrust into taking the role of King - and while he isn't interested in it, he still betrayed her by letting the word about his claim get out at all, and that it would likely, become popularly known, giving great public pressure to install Jon as king

that she would then have to rule by fear. She explicitly states this. Murdering half of King's Landing is a deliberate attempt to ensure that she rules by demonstrating absolute brutality to any opposition to her rule.

Edit: She decided before the battle that this was what she would do. The moment of what appears to be a decision is actually just her basically steeling herself to actually go through with her plan.
Isn't deciding to kill a million people instead of one pretty crazy?
  #700  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:16 PM
Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate View Post
Man, there is a complete disconnect between me and those here who think Dany burning the entire city made any sense based on past episodes. Again, there is some major gap between A) saying she was always a restrained tyrant and B) deciding to indiscriminately kill thousands of innocent civilians AFTER they have surrendered. This huge gap is being glossed over completely. I've read many ways this could be explained in the next episode, but going from past events, pretending there was a slow build to her going mad is just doesn't make sense.
Stannis: "Hundreds of thousands."
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017