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  #201  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:38 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
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He should have just kept his gun with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction, and certainly had his safety on.
No. You are wrong. Are you one of those gun grabbers who try to tell the REAL gun folks what to do? It was legal for him to do what he did. Are you trying to put government regulations in place for how to transport your guns? Regulation. Next comes registration. Then they grab your guns. You'd like that wouldn't you?

You are pretty thick if you can't see that the solution is more guns.
  #202  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:40 PM
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No. You are wrong. Are you one of those gun grabbers who try to tell the REAL gun folks what to do? It was legal for him to do what he did. Are you trying to put government regulations in place for how to transport your guns? Regulation. Next comes registration. Then they grab your guns. You'd like that wouldn't you?

You are pretty thick if you can't see that the solution is more guns.
You're right, I'm sold.
  #203  
Old 02-04-2013, 12:20 AM
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That's all I'm doing too. Just making a point.
No, you're not. Unless your point is "I'm a pathetically stupid dipshit."
  #204  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:41 AM
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No, you're not. Unless your point is "I'm a pathetically stupid dipshit."
No my point is that law abiding, gun owning citizens defend their lives against criminals with such frequency that it's actually being caught on film now. Another point is that the cops really are not there in time to save you even if you call them. And of course that it's often weaker people who are using their guns to defend against stronger attackers. Like this lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zZ...dd0I_H&index=5
  #205  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:53 AM
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No my point is that law abiding, gun owning citizens defend their lives against criminals with such frequency that it's actually being caught on film now.
The fact that something is caught on film is evidence for its frequency? You really are not very bright at all.
Quote:
Another point is that the cops really are not there in time to save you even if you call them. And of course that it's often weaker people who are using their guns to defend against stronger attackers. Like this lady:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zZ...dd0I_H&index=5
That's another instance of a very positive outcome. A successful defense with a firearm that is not in any risk of being banned.
  #206  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:35 AM
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The fact that something is caught on film is evidence for its frequency? You really are not very bright at all.
Sure it does. The more often something happens the more likely it will be caught on film. There are plenty of statistics indicating that guns are used to thwart crime with a relative high frequency, but it seems gun-grabbers just refuse to believe any of it. So I figure a video of it happening in real life is good for you would be gun-grabbers to see.

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That's another instance of a very positive outcome. A successful defense with a firearm that is not in any risk of being banned.
I'm glad you liked it, but if the gun-grabbers have their way, I think they will ban handguns. Some have already admitted it. They are just going for the low hanging fruit now, and once they get it they will say "see it's legal to ban some guns, so it must be legal to ban some more." I've already seen that argument used.
  #207  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:41 AM
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There are plenty of statistics indicating that guns are used to thwart crime with a relative high frequency...
Relative to what?
  #208  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:46 AM
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Bananas.
  #209  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:49 AM
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Bananas.
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  #210  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:56 AM
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Sure it does. The more often something happens the more likely it will be caught on film.
See now, this type of thinking is the product of a limited intellect. There's a famous America's Funniest Videos video clip of a bike race in which a hat blows off the head of one rider and lands perfectly on the head of a rider behind him. Does the fact that this was on film mean that this event happens frequently?

The increase in filming things is the product of video recording technology becoming simpler, cheaper and more generally available. The more that things in general are filmed, the more that rare events will be filmed. It does not mean anything about the frequency of those events. Imagine for instance that people posted videos in which nothing happened. How much effort would it take you to locate the videos you are showing us?

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There are plenty of statistics indicating that guns are used to thwart crime with a relative high frequency,
As Fear Itself points out, you cannot use the term "relative" in a vacuum. And in fact, people have studied the use of privately owned firearms for thwarting crimes relative to the use of these firearms for shooting family members or shooting oneself, showing that the rate of the former is dwarfed by the rate of the latter.
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but it seems gun-grabbers just refuse to believe any of it. So I figure a video of it happening in real life is good for you would be gun-grabbers to see.
What happens is that you display ignorance about statistics, handwave away stats that you don't like, and find that people are subsequently not convinced by you. Posting a video of such an event happening would be useful for refuting the assertion that successful defensive gun uses never happen. I don't think anyone is making that claim.

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I'm glad you liked it, but if the gun-grabbers have their way, I think they will ban handguns. Some have already admitted it. They are just going for the low hanging fruit now, and once they get it they will say "see it's legal to ban some guns, so it must be legal to ban some more." I've already seen that argument used.
This is because you do not approach the issue logically and intelligently, but from the standpoint of pants-filling paranoid hysteria.
  #211  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:06 AM
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Sure it does. The more often something happens the more likely it will be caught on film. There are plenty of statistics indicating that guns are used to thwart crime with a relative high frequency, but it seems gun-grabbers just refuse to believe any of it. So I figure a video of it happening in real life is good for you would be gun-grabbers to see.
Well, I think this video (and others you've posted) highlights the problem with defensive gun use statistics. In this video, the armed robber had ample time to shoot anybody he wanted, especially since they were actively resisting his efforts to rob the place. Furthermore, even after the shot was fired, the armed robber didn't use his weapon; he simply ran away. That, to me, says that he wasn't interested in killing anyone that day, since at that point he still had the upper hand.

Statistics say that if the store owners had simply opened the door, complied with the robber's demands and given him the money, he would have left without harming anyone. So was this a case of DGU to protect life and limb? Or property? I would vote property, but we'll never know. It could be that the armed robber planned on clearing out the register and then executing everyone in the store. I suppose shit like that does happen, although it's exceedingly rare.

Now, armed robbery is a violent crime, and even though nobody was physically harmed, I don't want to discount the mental effects. I also don't want to begrudge the way these employees reacted. However, there's a reason that banks don't train employees to barricade the door and then pull a small handgun out of their pockets if faced with deadly force -- because statistically, it's the wrong thing to do.

Last edited by steronz; 02-04-2013 at 09:07 AM.
  #212  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:17 AM
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See now, this type of thinking is the product of a limited intellect. There's a famous America's Funniest Videos video clip of a bike race in which a hat blows off the head of one rider and lands perfectly on the head of a rider behind him. Does the fact that this was on film mean that this event happens frequently?
No, but if it was caught on film a number of times, it would would mean it was more frequent then you might think. Wouldn't it?

Quote:
As Fear Itself points out, you cannot use the term "relative" in a vacuum. And in fact, people have studied the use of privately owned firearms for thwarting crimes relative to the use of these firearms for shooting family members or shooting oneself, showing that the rate of the former is dwarfed by the rate of the latter. What happens is that you display ignorance about statistics, handwave away stats that you don't like, and find that people are subsequently not convinced by you. Posting a video of such an event happening would be useful for refuting the assertion that successful defensive gun uses never happen. I don't think anyone is making that claim.
The low ball estimate of crimes being thwarted with guns is I think 100,000 times a year. That's a lot more than the number of deaths per year attributed to gun violence.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/02/03/ne...fensive-gun-us

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This is because you do not approach the issue logically and intelligently, but from the standpoint of pants-filling paranoid hysteria.
I know you are, but what am I.
  #213  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:21 AM
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Statistics say that if the store owners had simply opened the door, complied with the robber's demands and given him the money, he would have left without harming anyone. So was this a case of DGU to protect life and limb?
Maybe you are right, maybe should have just been a victim. Maybe let the guy rape her too while he was at it. Then he could do it again the next week.
  #214  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:35 AM
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Hey Kable

i guess you're not a gun grabber after all. My apologies.

Nice focus on the fear there. Yes, they are raping our women. We must fight back with everything we have. They are everywhere - rapists, robbers, muggers, home invasions. I watch TV, so I know this.

I suggest the solution is more guns. When you're afraid every moment of the waking day.... not just a little afraid, but freakin' terrified - gut-wrenching, pants-filling, knee trembling afraid....
Then having a gun (or better, guns) on your person is a great way to eliminate that fear.

What do you think of a federal law that requires every person to be armed at all times? Except for criminals, because they do all the crimes.
  #215  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:35 AM
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Dude, stop. It was only mildly amusing at first and now it's lame.
  #216  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:46 AM
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Dude, stop. It was only mildly amusing at first and now it's lame.
It's still a little funny.
  #217  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:54 AM
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Maybe you are right, maybe should have just been a victim. Maybe let the guy rape her too while he was at it. Then he could do it again the next week.
Oh, we're talking about your case now? I thought we were talking about all the videos you were posting.

I'll say two things even though I probably shouldn't. One, it's great that you were able to protect yourself and your wife, but that doesn't mean that every idiot who hears a bump in the night and runs downstairs with a sidearm can claim that he used his gun to prevent his wife from getting raped.

Two, if you had to relive that scenario again, would you rather stick with your sidearm, or would you want to upgrade to the home fortress that I described in another thread?
  #218  
Old 02-04-2013, 11:22 AM
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What about pointed sticks?
(John Cleese voice) SHUT UP!
  #219  
Old 02-04-2013, 12:37 PM
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Two, if you had to relive that scenario again, would you rather stick with your sidearm, or would you want to upgrade to the home fortress that I described in another thread?
Can you link to your post?
  #220  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:03 PM
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Can you link to your post?
Yeesh, it was in direct response to your question.
  #221  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:20 PM
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For the sake of argument by anecdote-

"A Florida man armed with an weapon that had once been banned under federal law forced his wife to watch as he strangled one of his sons and then shot a second before turning a gun on himself.

Victoria Flores Zavala told Boynton Beach police that 45-year-old Isidro Zavala went to her home on Saturday with a plan to kill her and their two boys because she had filed for divorce last year, according to WTVJ. But Isidro Zavala decide to spare his wife at the last minute so she could suffer while watching him murder 12-year-old Eduardo Zavala and 11-year-old Mario Zavala."
  #222  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
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Kind of anecdote that doesn't enlighten. This sort of behavior is way beyond anything we can discuss, or regulate, or even effect. Dark and twisted madness is not subject to rational control.
  #223  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:06 PM
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This sort of behavior is way beyond anything we can discuss, or regulate, or even effect. Dark and twisted madness is not subject to rational control.
Now, now; everything can be made better with More Guns.
  #224  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:09 PM
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Dark and twisted madness is not subject to rational control.
Its ability to destroy other lives is, however.
  #225  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:41 PM
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Now, now; everything can be made better with More Guns.
Well we are trying, we really are. The Congressional Research Service last estimated in 2009 that there were 310 million guns in the US.

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...n-america?lite

This last December there were 2.8 million NICS background checks. Now the background checks are done only at the point of sale, so they provide a pretty good idea of the number of guns bought. This isn't a perfect method because some people buy more than one gun per background check, concealed carry holders don't usually have to go through another check, and some small number of people fail the check. Most people who would fail a background check do not attempt to legally purchase, hence the small number of rejections.

That 2.8 million in December is high, it was only a little over 2 million in November. But if we do the math using a more conservative number of 1.5 million per month since 2009 we arrive at a number north of 400 million, the real answer is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of half a billion guns in the US.

There are currently only 315 million people in the US.

We are trying to keep up with demand, just give us some time to catch up, Ok?
  #226  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:42 PM
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Yeesh, it was in direct response to your question.
Yeesh there have been a lot of replies on a lot of different threads. I can't keep up with all of them.

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It depends. I've said in other threads that if I were legitimately concerned about a home invasion, I would fortify my house. I'd install a heavy metal door at the top of the stairs, which I would deadbolt every night, and have a hard line with which to call 911. If someone broke into the house, I would hunker down in my fortress and wait for the cavalry.
I have a single floor home. Double doors to my bedroom and two windows to the outside. I suppose it could be made into a fortress but I don't think it economically feasible and probably not so good for resale value. I did install motion sensor lights outside the house. A problem with my home invasion was visibility in the dark so my bedside gun is now a Remington 870 with a Surefire forearm light attached in addition to my handguns. I don't have any kids and my SO and I have a good relationship. I don't plan to shoot her and I don't expect her to shoot me.

I think a couple loud dogs would be a great deterrent but unfortunately I don't have the time to take care of them.
  #227  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:50 PM
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Oh, we're talking about your case now? I thought we were talking about all the videos you were posting.

I'll say two things even though I probably shouldn't. One, it's great that you were able to protect yourself and your wife, but that doesn't mean that every idiot who hears a bump in the night and runs downstairs with a sidearm can claim that he used his gun to prevent his wife from getting raped.

Two, if you had to relive that scenario again, would you rather stick with your sidearm, or would you want to upgrade to the home fortress that I described in another thread?
FWIW, I was talking about the video. The other nice thing about my sidearm is I can carry it with me almost wherever I go, unlike the fortress, so given the choice I'll take the gun.
  #228  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:15 PM
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I have a single floor home. Double doors to my bedroom and two windows to the outside. I suppose it could be made into a fortress but I don't think it economically feasible and probably not so good for resale value. I did install motion sensor lights outside the house. A problem with my home invasion was visibility in the dark so my bedside gun is now a Remington 870 with a Surefire forearm light attached in addition to my handguns. I don't have any kids and my SO and I have a good relationship. I don't plan to shoot her and I don't expect her to shoot me.
I sure John Tabutt thought much the same way you do before that night in October 2009.

Statistically speaking, you and/or your SO are more likely to be shot with your gun than any home invader. Not to worry tho; we'll keep repeating this until you understand it.
  #229  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:25 PM
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I sure John Tabutt thought much the same way you do before that night in October 2009.

Statistically speaking, you and/or your SO are more likely to be shot with your gun than any home invader. Not to worry tho; we'll keep repeating this until you understand it.
Well my home invader wasn't going to shoot me but rather beat me to death with a 2x4 so I'm not sure what that would do to your statistics. Also I'm a USPSA Master level shooter, so I'm pretty sure I'm considerably better trained in gun handling and safety than John Tabutt. And in case you missed it, I have a light on the end of my gun.

This should make you feel better. This guy shot 2 intruders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTuBsB_Q6oY
  #230  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:35 PM
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Is this thread STILL The Kable Show? Yeesh!
  #231  
Old 02-04-2013, 07:49 PM
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Is this thread STILL The Kable Show? Yeesh!
Is it a gun thread? Then... yes!
  #232  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:11 PM
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So, Kable, are ya bothered at all by posting videos of people shooting intruders in a thread titles "Stupid Gun news of the day"? You post them, we think it's stupid news. Is that what you actually had in mind?

You maybe might want to actually start another thread, "Good gun news of the day," if that's what you were shooting for.
  #233  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:22 PM
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So, Kable, are ya bothered at all by posting videos of people shooting intruders in a thread titles "Stupid Gun news of the day"? You post them, we think it's stupid news. Is that what you actually had in mind?
I like when people watch the link and think "but that's not stupid."

Quote:
You maybe might want to actually start another thread, "Good gun news of the day," if that's what you were shooting for.
Good idea. I'll consider that when this thread dies. However, that might just be preaching to the choir.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:24 PM
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I like when people watch the link and think "but that's not stupid."
So, reading for comprehension is not your strong suit. I see.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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So, reading for comprehension is not your strong suit. I see.
Last time I checked, it tested above average. What did I miss?
  #236  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:30 PM
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Last time I checked, it tested above average. What did I miss?
"You post them, we think it's stupid news."
  #237  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:40 PM
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"You post them, we think it's stupid news."
No they don't. See posts 111, 112, 113. You can tell too!
  #238  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:45 PM
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No my point is that law abiding, gun owning citizens defend their lives against criminals with such frequency that it's actually being caught on film now.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:49 PM
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No they don't. See posts 111, 112, 113. You can tell too!
Huh. Well, I don't watch videos when I'm at work, so I've just been assuming they're all stupid gun news. Are you saying you've been deliberately posting good gun news in this thread, in spite of what it's called?
  #240  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:53 PM
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Both sides make me ashamed to be a gun owner and a Democrat.
How about some more "dog shoots hunter" links?
  #241  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:55 PM
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The plural of anecdote is not data.
I agree, that's the same thing I tell people when the bring up Newton AND Aurora.
  #242  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:57 PM
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Huh. Well, I don't watch videos when I'm at work, so I've just been assuming they're all stupid gun news. Are you saying you've been deliberately posting good gun news in this thread, in spite of what it's called?
When you get home watch a few and tell me what you think.
  #243  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:17 PM
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Last time I checked, it tested above average. What did I miss?
Ah, so you've had trouble comprehending other things you've read too. Next time, have someone else check things for you; you clearly don't understand much that you read, even when they are your own test scores.
  #244  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:32 PM
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Ah, so you've had trouble comprehending other things you've read too. Next time, have someone else check things for you; you clearly don't understand much that you read, even when they are your own test scores.
Ran out of argument did ya?
  #245  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:44 PM
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When you get home watch a few and tell me what you think.
Sadly, I don't have internet access at home. Most of your posts I end up lumping into the category of "Hey, guys, check this out! <youtube link>". If it were email, it'd be getting caught by my spam filter. It might help in the future if, in addition to the youtube link, you provided a summary, or a link to an actual news story like, I dunno, the thread title suggests?
  #246  
Old 02-04-2013, 10:07 PM
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Sadly, I don't have internet access at home. Most of your posts I end up lumping into the category of "Hey, guys, check this out! <youtube link>". If it were email, it'd be getting caught by my spam filter. It might help in the future if, in addition to the youtube link, you provided a summary, or a link to an actual news story like, I dunno, the thread title suggests?
What and spoil the surprise? I don't know what else to tell you except to maybe get an ipad.
  #247  
Old 02-04-2013, 11:56 PM
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Ran out of argument did ya?
No.

The thing is, you never had an argument to begin with. And you're apparently unable to understand that, so you keep posting inanities.
  #248  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:45 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/op...yths.html?_r=0

"In the 1990s, a team headed by Arthur Kellermann of Emory University looked at all injuries involving guns kept in the home in Memphis, Seattle and Galveston, Tex. They found that these weapons were fired far more often in accidents, criminal assaults, homicides or suicide attempts than in self-defense. For every instance in which a gun in the home was shot in self-defense, there were seven criminal assaults or homicides, four accidental shootings, and 11 attempted or successful suicides. "

1:22. Ouch.
There are all sorts of studies out there on defensive gun use and at one end of the spectrum is Kleck and Gertz who many consider to be industry shills because their methodology stretches to define almost anything as a defensive gun use. On the other end of the spectrum is Kellerman who many people consider a political activist with no objectivity. he basically doesn't count anything that doesn't result in a criminal actually getting shot as a defensive gun use. I tend to believe the Department of justice numbers. are only slightly on the high side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobohan View Post
Most gun enthusiasts don't count suicides. Even though having a gun increases the chance you'll commit suicide. Everyone has been at low emotional points and people who have a gun handy when that happens are more likely to impulsively turn the switch.
The lethality of suicide attempts with guns is orders of magnitude higher than lethality of other forms of attempted suicide.
  #249  
Old 02-05-2013, 06:22 AM
Gyrate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kable View Post
I like when people watch the link and think "but that's not stupid."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
So, reading for comprehension is not your strong suit. I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kable View Post
Last time I checked, it tested above average. What did I miss?
You missed the title of the thread.

See, we have this other, rather lengthy thread called "Stupid Republican idea of the day". In it, people post stupid things that Republicans and other conservatives have said or done. What they don't do is post sensible things that Republicans/conservatives have said or done, because that's not what the thread is about.

You seem to think that this is a GD thread where all instances of stupid gun news must be somehow cancelled out by news of someone using a gun properly, and that by posting links to these videos you're proving some sort of point. All you're proving, however, is that you're fucking clueless about how this messageboard works.

If you want to start a thread about people using guns in a sensible way, by all means do so. I welcome it. But if you do, don't just post coy links to YouTube videos with no description of what they're about and why you're posting them, because that too would prove that you're fucking clueless about how this messageboard works.
  #250  
Old 02-05-2013, 06:36 AM
Kable is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
No.

The thing is, you never had an argument to begin with. And you're apparently unable to understand that, so you keep posting inanities.
Is this cute 89 year old lady who defended herself against a home invader inane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jURuXjjJ8
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