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Old 12-08-2016, 03:22 PM
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Amber gets a piece of tail


Not the first mid-Cretaceous feathers found in amber, but the first to be found associated with bones that prove them to be from a non-avian dinosaur and not an early bird.

NYT link.
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Old 12-08-2016, 04:55 PM
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Thank Og for amber or we might still think the world was flat or something.....

I knew the big lizards had feathers all along. But no one would believe me. ::: pout ::::
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:08 PM
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I know quite a few old fogies who prefer their dinos with the tripod gait for "aesthetical" reasons. As someone who saw JP in theaters as a tot lo those many years ago, I figured it was why I prefer the "bent-over" look. But it didn't take much at all to convince me that feathered dinos are just as majestic, wild and literally awesome as their debunked scaly selves, if not moreso.

It'd be disingenuous to say that Jurassic Worlds' biggest problem was its adherence to that image, especially when the first two films strived for accuracy in spite of the then-popular "tripod" gait and feathers being still only theoretical at the time, but it's up there.
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:26 PM
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We have a small flock of chickens. 6 actually, it was 7 but one was partly eaten a few days ago by an unknown assailant, but I digress.

When they all come running over when I'm throwing them scraps, I sorta kinda imagine them as bigger and dinosaur scary, and it's pretty disturbing actually.
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Old 12-09-2016, 08:46 AM
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Dinosaur tail discovered trapped in amber


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/08/he...rnd/index.html
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(CNN)The tail of a 99-million-year-old dinosaur has been found entombed in amber, an unprecedented discovery that has blown away scientists.
Xing Lida, a Chinese paleontologist found the specimen, the size of a dried apricot, at an amber market in northern Myanmar near the Chinese border.

The remarkable piece was destined to end up as a curiosity or piece of jewelry, with Burmese traders believing a plant fragment was trapped inside.
...
The tail section belongs to a young coelurosaurian -- from the same group of dinosaurs as the predatory velociraptors and the tyrannosaurus.
There is a picture of the fossil showing what are obviously feathers (scroll down to the third picture). Very cool.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:23 AM
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Very cool.
Yes, very.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:49 AM
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Break out the clonamajig!
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:56 AM
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Break out the clonamajig!
I was hoping the same thing, but alas.
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McKellar said that soft tissue and decayed blood from the tail were found in the amber but no genetic material was preserved.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:59 AM
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Agreed that this would be an extemely cromulent use of the clonamajig, but as Crotalus points out it's not possible.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:01 AM
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I wonder how the pigments stood the test of time.

Imagine the exploding heads if we discovered that T-Rex was a disgusting purple with a green belly.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:05 AM
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I wonder how the pigments stood the test of time.

Imagine the exploding heads if we discovered that T-Rex was a disgusting purple with a green belly.
According to the article, the preserved pigments suggest that it was chestnut brown and white (and this isn't T-Rex).
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:19 AM
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According to the article, the preserved pigments suggest that it was chestnut brown and white (and this isn't T-Rex).
The size of a robin. Oops, my cats caused a mass extinction.




(My cats are indoors cats and one was sitting beside me when I read the article. They do have fun watching the dinosaurs outside through the window.)
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:21 AM
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The size of a robin. Oops, my cats caused a mass extinction.




(My cats are indoors cats and one was sitting beside me when I read the article. They do have fun watching the dinosaurs outside through the window.)
It would have to be pretty small to have any substantial fraction of it trapped in amber.

Last edited by davidm; 12-09-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:21 AM
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According to the article, the preserved pigments suggest that it was chestnut brown and white (and this isn't T-Rex).
You may have missed the "Barney" reference.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:25 AM
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We're already talking about this.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:29 AM
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Mod Hat On


Duplicate threads merged.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:45 AM
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I for one would like to welcome our new cloned dinosaur overlords.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:49 AM
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Echoing down the aeons: "Billy, I told you if you sat there you'd get stuck forever!"
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:51 AM
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Amazing! I love this kind of stuff!
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:17 AM
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That is so very, very, very cool. Here's to hoping that other preserved body parts of these tiny buggers will show up eventually! (Guessing that due to their size, there isn't much in the way of a fossil record for them?)
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:31 AM
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Duplicate threads merged.
I wish you'd preserved the original title, though, even though the new one gives a better idea of the subject.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:38 AM
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I wish you'd preserved the original title, though, even though the new one gives a better idea of the subject.
I was doing the merge on my phone while giving a final exam, so those nuances (which thread was merging into the other) go lost. The software always merges the later tread into the earlier, but I think how I set up the merge determines which title is kept.

If it's any consolation, the other title is on the first post, so it's not lost to time.

Amber was preserved, as it were.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:57 AM
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(Guessing that due to their size, there isn't much in the way of a fossil record for them?)
Small isn't a problem for fossils. The vast majority of fossils range from small to tiny. Note, for example, the sizes of the known Archaeopteryx specimens.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:00 PM
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I was doing the merge on my phone while giving a final exam, so those nuances (which thread was merging into the other) go lost. The software always merges the later tread into the earlier, but I think how I set up the merge determines which title is kept.

If it's any consolation, the other title is on the first post, so it's not lost to time.

Amber was preserved, as it were.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:09 PM
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Small isn't a problem for fossils. The vast majority of fossils range from small to tiny. Note, for example, the sizes of the known Archaeopteryx specimens.
Hah, ignorance-fought! For some reason, I had a mental image of those critters being more turkey-, than pigeon- sized.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:42 PM
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Hah, ignorance-fought! For some reason, I had a mental image of those critters being more turkey-, than pigeon- sized.
On a similar note, if you have any interest at all in the subject, you really should try to get your hands on a copy of Unearthing the Dragon, a beautifully illustrated book about Chinese feathered dinosaur and bird fossils (and the scientists who study them.)
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:28 PM
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BTW, I meant to mention that you can download the PDF of the full paper here.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:50 PM
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So, is it likely that all dinosaurs were feathered, or is it possible that some had feathers and others had scales?
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:35 PM
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We have a small flock of chickens. 6 actually, it was 7 but one was partly eaten a few days ago by an unknown assailant, but I digress.

When they all come running over when I'm throwing them scraps, I sorta kinda imagine them as bigger and dinosaur scary, and it's pretty disturbing actually.
T-Rex...tastes like Chicken?
Helluva drumstick....
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:10 PM
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So, is it likely that all dinosaurs were feathered, or is it possible that some had feathers and others had scales?
Well, this relates to the idea of phylogenetic bracketing. Basically, this says that any specific identical trait is more likely to have evolved once than it is more than one time. So if you find fossils of two species of dinosaur preserving feathers, you have the choice between assuming that both species evolved the specific and complex trait of feathers independently, or you can assume that the two species shared a common ancestor that also had feathers. This would also mean that any other species descended from the parent species also had feathers, whether the fossils preserve signs of feathers or not.

More than 40 species of dinosaurs so far have been identified with signs of feathers, across both of the big groups of dinosaurs--the "lizard-hipped" and the "bird-hipped." So this means that the common ancestor of all dinosaurs probably had some sort of primitive feathers, and therefore all dinosaurs had them in their lineage (though some species may have later lost them completely.)

And, there is evidence that at least some pterosaurs had a kind of fuzzy covering. This may have evolved independently, or it may mean that the common ancestor of dinosaurs and pterosaurs shared an extra-primitive proto-feather
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:12 PM
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McKellar said that soft tissue and decayed blood from the tail were found in the amber but no genetic material was preserved.
No problem, they can fill in the gaps by using the DNA of frogs.

(Actually, that's a terrible idea...)
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Old 12-09-2016, 07:57 PM
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And, there is evidence that at least some pterosaurs had a kind of fuzzy covering.
Oh come on, if they flew, surely they had feathers.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:46 PM
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Oh come on, if they flew, surely they had feathers.
Bats don't have feathers.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:15 AM
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Bats don't have feathers.
Sniff.
Maybe they are, like, really, really small feathers and no one notices them?
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:12 AM
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I am reliably informed that eyes have evolved three times. Mammals, birds, and in the Octopus. This is to say that there are three basic structures. Of these, the design of mammalian eyes is not the best - not even close.

I bring this up only to say that to the lay person, it is reasonable to believe that structures like feathers, hair, or claws could arise many times. How true that actually is, I'll leave to those better informed.
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:30 AM
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Break out the clonamajig!
Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they should, they didn't stop to think if they can.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:42 AM
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I am reliably informed that eyes have evolved three times. Mammals, birds, and in the Octopus.
That's...not even close to true.

The eyes of all animals that have them seem to have developed from the same source. But the development of the eye has taken different turns in different lineages, including certain structures, such as the lens, developing independently, which is presumably what you're misremembering.

And even there, the three groups listed are putting the divergences much more recently than they really are. The eyes of vertebrates don't generally vary in structure that much, suggesting nothing is particularly novel in them. (IIRC, the only structure existing in some, but not in others, is the sclerotic ring, which, based on its ubiquity, would be ancestral to all tetrapods, but lost in some lineages, such as mammals, rather than independently evolving in the lineages that have it.)
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:51 PM
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I wonder that eyes are usually in twos, but triops have three
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:37 PM
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As I understand it, there are four lineages of imaging eye: Lensed eyes in the vertebrates, cephalopods, and (of all things) box jellyfish (who wouldn't seem to have enough of a nervous system to make any use of images, but who knows), plus the compound eyes of arthropods. While these might have had some sort of common ancestry from a primitive light-sensitive organ, that organ would not have been imaging.

That said, there are other vaguely eye-like things in some creatures. Pit vipers have infrared-sensitive pits for detecting prey by body heat, and tuataras have a light-sensitive eye-like organ in the center of their foreheads.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:50 PM
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Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they should, they didn't stop to think if they can.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:15 AM
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As I understand it, there are four lineages of imaging eye: Lensed eyes in the vertebrates, cephalopods, and (of all things) box jellyfish (who wouldn't seem to have enough of a nervous system to make any use of images, but who knows), plus the compound eyes of arthropods. While these might have had some sort of common ancestry from a primitive light-sensitive organ, that organ would not have been imaging.
As typical, there's a wiki for that.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:11 AM
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Darren Garrison:

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and not an early bird.
So we know it didn't get the worm, then.
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:22 AM
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What I want to know is how the amber bit off a piece of dinosaur tail. Or how something else managed to bite off and discard a piece of dinosaur tail in such a way that it just ever so conveinetly fell into a convenient blob of pine resin.

I mean, dinosaur tails are usually attached to dinosaurs. What happened to the rest of it? It's not like losing your boots in quicksand. Blobs of pine resin are sticky but you can usually continue forward motion with pine resin stuck to you, you don't have to chew off your tail in order to make your escape, right?
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:23 AM
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There are any number of possibilities. Maybe something ate the rest of if and dropped the tail where it happened to land in resin.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:18 AM
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I am reliably informed that eyes have evolved three times. Mammals, birds, and in the Octopus. This is to say that there are three basic structures. Of these, the design of mammalian eyes is not the best - not even close.

I bring this up only to say that to the lay person, it is reasonable to believe that structures like feathers, hair, or claws could arise many times. How true that actually is, I'll leave to those better informed.
Actually, one of the genes triggering eye development is so highly conserved that the mouse gene can substitute for a defective gene in the fruit fly (eyeless/small eyes/aniridia). This point to a common ancestral organ to both insect and vertebrate eyes.

"The finding that ey of Drosophila, Small eye of the mouse, and human Aniridia are encoded by homologous genes suggests that eye morphogenesis is under similar genetic control in both vertebrates and insects, in spite of the large differences in eye morphology and mode of development"
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:15 AM
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To answer the question of how many times that eyes have evolved, you have to first answer "what is an eye?" (And I feel kinda like I need to shave my head and put on a saffron robe before writing that sentence.) The evidence today suggests that photoreceptors evolved once, and ways to squeeze more useful information out of those photoreceptors (such as putting them in an indentation, mostly covering that indentation, sticking a lens over the open part of the cover) happened multiple times and is is an "evolutionary easy" form of convergence. So if you call a patch of photorecptors an eye, you can say that eyes evolved once. If your definition needs eyes to have more elaborate structures, you can say that eyes evolved multiple times. (In honor of the two levels of complexity, a succinct link and a more elaborate one.)
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:10 PM
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What I want to know is how the amber bit off a piece of dinosaur tail. Or how something else managed to bite off and discard a piece of dinosaur tail in such a way that it just ever so conveinetly fell into a convenient blob of pine resin.

I mean, dinosaur tails are usually attached to dinosaurs. What happened to the rest of it? It's not like losing your boots in quicksand. Blobs of pine resin are sticky but you can usually continue forward motion with pine resin stuck to you, you don't have to chew off your tail in order to make your escape, right?
Gecko tails drop off, to let Mr Gecko escape.
Maybe some dinos could do the trick.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:44 PM
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Crocodilians and testudines are more closely related to dinosaurs than lizards; can any of them regrow tails? If not, then it's unlikely.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:03 PM
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Yeah, that's why I specifically said that imaging eyes had evolved multiple times. I'm not going to get into the question of just what an "eye" is, but I feel pretty comfortable on the question of what an "imaging eye" is.

Back to the amberized tail, it's also possible that the entire dinosaur died (of whatever), and its corpse fell onto the edge of a patch of resin, such that its tail was in and the rest of it was out. With time, the tail got fully encased, and the portion that was outside the amber rotted away or got mangled by some scavenger or something.
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Old 12-16-2016, 07:50 PM
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Back to the amberized tail, it's also possible that the entire dinosaur died (of whatever), and its corpse fell onto the edge of a patch of resin, such that its tail was in and the rest of it was out. With time, the tail got fully encased, and the portion that was outside the amber rotted away or got mangled by some scavenger or something.
Time travelers.
It was time travelers.
I'm waiting for a water bottle cap to be found in amber.
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