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  #51  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:06 PM
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I think show Dany is resistant to fire, but has the capability under rare circumstances to use fire/death magic, and exchange death by fire (of others) for temporary special powers -- hatching dragon eggs, surviving flames, etc. We've only seen her survive flames at times in which she deliberately "sacrificed" others to the fire.
  #52  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
I also thought it was interesting that Jon was said to be named Aegon (I don't recall if that was mentioned last season.. it may have been). I guess it's somewhat a not to the Aegon (or fAegon depending on your view on the matter) in the books - I can't imagine Rheagar would call two of his sons the same name.
It's not uncommon in European history for a noble family to have multiple children with the same name, especially if one was already dead when the second one was born.
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  #53  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:27 PM
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Well there is also no reason for Dany to know about the "only Targaryens can ride dragons" rule either.
Maybe, but Benioff says that this should have tipped Jon off. If a Stark should have known about the rule, certainly a Targaryan should have.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:42 PM
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It's not uncommon in European history for a noble family to have multiple children with the same name, especially if one was already dead when the second one was born.
Rhaegar would have had to have selected the name before the first Aegon was killed. Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and his wife and children, including the first Aegon, were murdered during the subsequent sack of Kings Landing. Jon was born and Lyanna died sometime after the sack, since Ned was present there and went to find them afterward.

Lyanna actually named Jon after Rhaegar and his wife and children were dead. However, there would seemingly be no reason for her to name him Aegon on her own, especially if a child by another woman had been named Aegon.

(I'm only familiar with the show. Is the timeline different in the books?)

Last edited by Colibri; 04-17-2019 at 12:44 PM.
  #55  
Old 04-17-2019, 01:38 PM
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(I'm only familiar with the show. Is the timeline different in the books?)
The timeline is the same in the books. Rhaegar dies at the Trident and then following that was when Rhaenys and Aegon (along with their mother, Elia) were killed when King's Landing was sacked.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:41 PM
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  #57  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:50 PM
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I think show Dany is resistant to fire, but has the capability under rare circumstances to use fire/death magic, and exchange death by fire (of others) for temporary special powers -- hatching dragon eggs, surviving flames, etc. We've only seen her survive flames at times in which she deliberately "sacrificed" others to the fire.
But we don't have any examples of her being burned or even bothered by flames or heat elsewhere. And the first time we saw her in the series she climbed into a scalding hot tub, without seeming to even notice the heat, against the warning of her servant.

I think it's fair to say that the mother of dragons has a natural, and very strong resistance to fire.
  #58  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:59 PM
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But we don't have any examples of her being burned or even bothered by flames or heat elsewhere. And the first time we saw her in the series she climbed into a scalding hot tub, without seeming to even notice the heat, against the warning of her servant.



I think it's fair to say that the mother of dragons has a natural, and very strong resistance to fire.
Yes, I agree! Read my post again.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:49 PM
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There's only one scene in the books that shows she's immune to fire, and the author explicitly said it's a one time thing. Dunno why people don't take his word.
You make a compelling case in terms of the books. By contrast, the show has shown her having complete immunity to heat and fire in a half a dozen scenes, and one of her names is the "Unburnt."

In the show, she's clearly immune to fire. If ever they represent her as being in danger from fire, they will need to provide some kind of on-screen explanation before or after it.

EDIT: I would not go so far as to say that she's immune to dragon fire, though. I could see the undead dragon cooking her, but I could also see her surviving such a thing.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 04-17-2019 at 05:53 PM.
  #60  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:15 PM
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Is the undead dragon shooting fire? It seems to me to be some sort of magical undead opposite to fire. I could easily fanwank that Daeneris's immunity to fire might actually make her extra susceptible to whatever it is the undead dragon is spewing,
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:37 PM
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I think show Dany is resistant to fire, but has the capability under rare circumstances to use fire/death magic, and exchange death by fire (of others) for temporary special powers -- hatching dragon eggs, surviving flames, etc. We've only seen her survive flames at times in which she deliberately "sacrificed" others to the fire.
In the first season, she picks up a dragon egg that has been sitting in the fire and isn't burned, in contrast to the servant who grabs the egg from her and gets blistered hands. Not quite "surviving flames" but more than a hot bath. I like your idea overall, though. Really significant flame-related magic requires human sacrifice.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:25 PM
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Is the undead dragon shooting fire? It seems to me to be some sort of magical undead opposite to fire. I could easily fanwank that Daeneris's immunity to fire might actually make her extra susceptible to whatever it is the undead dragon is spewing,
I figured the same at first, but if it had cold/ice breath like a white dragon, it wouldn't have brought down the wall.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 04-17-2019 at 08:29 PM.
  #63  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:00 PM
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I don't know that magical dragon breath has to follow those rules. What does it take to bring down the wall? It was warded by magic, maybe it takes magic breath to bring it down. If they just wanted to show it being bog-standard dragon fire, they could have just used the same color.

Okay, actually I looked up 'dragon fire' in the GoT Wiki, and it turns out that every dragon has its own color, with some dragons actually having black 'dragon fire', or red tinged with green, or whatever. So I guess an undead dragon can have blue fire and still be normal dragon fire.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:50 PM
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You make a compelling case in terms of the books. By contrast, the show has shown her having complete immunity to heat and fire in a half a dozen scenes, and one of her names is the "Unburnt."

In the show, she's clearly immune to fire. If ever they represent her as being in danger from fire, they will need to provide some kind of on-screen explanation before or after it.

EDIT: I would not go so far as to say that she's immune to dragon fire, though. I could see the undead dragon cooking her, but I could also see her surviving such a thing.
Yeah, I never said she wasn't fireproof in the show because she is obviously fireproof in the show.

She has the same nickname in the books, btw. I think surviving a pyre once is enough for that to stick, don't need the repeat performance in Vaes Dothrak.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:46 AM
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She has the same nickname in the books, btw. I think surviving a pyre once is enough for that to stick, don't need the repeat performance in Vaes Dothrak.
Ha! I have to give you that one.

Jesus walked on water!
Yeah, but only once...

EDIT: Reading back over our posts on this tangent, is the only time Dani has been burnt in the books when she gets hit in the face with dragon fire? If so, I wouldn't say that's clear evidence that she isn't fireproof. GRRM saying so is proof, of course. But if he hadn't said anything, if that was the only time it happened, I could see dragon fire being supernatural and thus hurting someone who is immune to normal human fire.

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  #66  
Old 04-18-2019, 06:31 AM
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EDIT: Reading back over our posts on this tangent, is the only time Dani has been burnt in the books when she gets hit in the face with dragon fire? If so, I wouldn't say that's clear evidence that she isn't fireproof. GRRM saying so is proof, of course. But if he hadn't said anything, if that was the only time it happened, I could see dragon fire being supernatural and thus hurting someone who is immune to normal human fire.
She wasn't hit in the face though. She was in the arena with Drogon while he was roasting people, and she was close enough for her hair to be burned. If she was engulfed in dragon fire and survived I'd probably have a different opinion on the matter.
  #67  
Old 04-21-2019, 06:15 PM
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:33 PM
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So in the show thread, we're running up against a few facts people remember, that whoops, actually come from the books, not the show. Specifically, the term "greenseer" was used, and the fact that Baratheons are vaguely related to the Targaryens somehow. Now I'm almost certain the latter fact was mentioned back in the beginning, as part of the reason Ned didn't become king after the rebellion and Robert did. And I thought Jojen mentioned he was a greenseer way back when. But having read the books, I could be getting them confused with the show.

I tried to check on the GoT wiki (as opposed to the ASoIaF wiki), and unfortunately there was a lot of book-only info on there, and many of the non-book sources were things like special features from the DVDs, and I'm not sure if they're strictly cannon for the purposes of the show-only thread.

Does anybody know of a way to verify if a piece of info is from the show or the books or elsewhere? A quick google didn't turn up any searchable databases of GoT scripts or anything. It sure would be nice to type "greenseer" in and either come up with a hit -- "It was used back in season 3 episode 6 by whomever" -- or not come up with a hit and know the info wasn't from the show.
  #69  
Old 04-24-2019, 03:42 PM
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I tried to check on the GoT wiki (as opposed to the ASoIaF wiki), and unfortunately there was a lot of book-only info on there, and many of the non-book sources were things like special features from the DVDs, and I'm not sure if they're strictly cannon for the purposes of the show-only thread.
I have the same problem with that Wiki. While they have a separate section on "In the books," there's info in the main accounts that's not from the show, especially background information. I've never read the books, but I know from the Wiki that Robert has a claim to the throne through Targaryen ancestry. I can't remember that ever being mentioned in the show, although it might have been.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:44 PM
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Not sure about a book vs show database, but I'm pretty sure that Baratheons and Targaryens having a marriage back in the day was not in the show. Less sure about Jojen mentioning greenseers.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:51 PM
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It's VERY hard to keep shit straight at this point. Haven't read the books since before the last book came out and the show is going on ten years now.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:12 PM
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Less sure about Jojen mentioning greenseers.
I found a clip where Jojen is explaining to Bran about having "the Sight." But he didn't call it greensight or mention greenseers.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:26 PM
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Robert Baratheon having a claim due to Targaryen ancestry is never mentioned in the show. Jaime even points out that Ned could've had the Iron Throne off he wanted it. Succession isn't mentioned as a factor.

I'm about 70% sure the word greenseer is never used in the show. Jojen refers to "the sight" a few times.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:44 PM
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Old 04-28-2019, 10:29 PM
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Well, I don't think that "nobody dies and they win just by stabbing the Night King" was much of a popular fan theory. Hm.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:58 PM
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Well, I don't think that "nobody dies and they win just by stabbing the Night King" was much of a popular fan theory. Hm.
LOL

Yeah, seems very un-Martinesque.

So who was the Prince that was Promised? I guess it can be either Arya for killing the Night King, or Jon or Dany under the theory that Arya would never have been in the position to do so if Jon and Dany hadn't led or fought as they did.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:22 AM
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Colibri, from our discussion in the show thread, here is Melissandre speaking to Stannis in Storm of Swords, Ch. 63, Davos 6:

Quote:
You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.
I think it indicates that Melissandre came over to Westeros not because she had this notion of Stannis on the Iron Throne, but because she felt Stannis would be the one to defeat the darkness and the "the Other". The Prince That Was Promised is to push back the darkness and defend the world of light. Therefore, when the Other was defeated, her purpose in still living was over and, hence, decided to die - well I guess she prophecied she would before the dawn.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:38 AM
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Colibri, from our discussion in the show thread, here is Melissandre speaking to Stannis in Storm of Swords, Ch. 63, Davos 6:



I think it indicates that Melissandre came over to Westeros not because she had this notion of Stannis on the Iron Throne, but because she felt Stannis would be the one to defeat the darkness and the "the Other". The Prince That Was Promised is to push back the darkness and defend the world of light. Therefore, when the Other was defeated, her purpose in still living was over and, hence, decided to die - well I guess she prophecied she would before the dawn.
"The Great Other" is a god, the antithesis to the Lord of Light. The Night King is very powerful, but he's by no means a god. I'm not at all convinced.
  #79  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:41 AM
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So... Was Melisandre the Lightbringer?
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:49 AM
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Well, I don't think that "nobody dies and they win just by stabbing the Night King" was much of a popular fan theory. Hm.
We'll probably never get the book but I 100% refuse to believe that's how it (would) go down. Talk about anti-climatic.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:51 AM
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The show runners did say they have the major plot points and the overall outline, just needing to fill it in themselves. That's why I won't say "the show has gotten worse since it got past the books" or "GRRM would do something better" - the reality is that it's easier to set up a complex story than to resolve it and GRRM is never going to do it, so it's kinda shitty to crap on the people who are forced to do what he himself refuses to do.

So I don't know if Arya stabbing the NK was from GRRM or what. They did say that was the plan for 3 years.
  #82  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:03 AM
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"The Great Other" is a god, the antithesis to the Lord of Light. The Night King is very powerful, but he's by no means a god. I'm not at all convinced.
There is no reason Melisandre is in Westeros otherwise. She chooses Stannis because she believes him to be the one who will destroy the Others. She constantly speaks about that being her goal. Not because she cares who sits on the Iron Throne.

Storm of Swords, Ch 36:

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It means that the battle is begun. The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hillor.
Storm of Swords, Ch 78:
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Melisandre: Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.

Aemon: It is the war for the dawnyou speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?

Melisandre: He stands before you, though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...t_was_promised

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  #83  
Old 04-29-2019, 06:30 AM
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Just throwing my support for ISiddqui. Melisandre's entire purpose was to help the living defeat the dead. Azor Ahai is merely the vehicle to help in that purpose.
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Old 04-29-2019, 07:14 AM
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If GRRM had Cercei winning it all, I offically hope that his entrails burst out.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:03 AM
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If GRRM had Cercei winning it all, I offically hope that his entrails burst out.
I'd prefer that to Dany and/or Jon winning the throne. At least Cersei goes against standard tropes.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:59 AM
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I think the Red Witch thought her work was done - and maybe lighting up all the swords and the barricade just exhausted her and used up all her remaining magic.

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Robert Baratheon having a claim due to Targaryen ancestry is never mentioned in the show....
Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, IIRC from the books.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:04 AM
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I'd prefer that to Dany and/or Jon winning the throne. At least Cersei goes against standard tropes.
Yes, I'd be fine with that as well, for those reasons.

I do think they've teased the dragon killing crossbows enough that it'll come into play and maybe kill of Dany and leave Jon to sit the Iron Throne. I guess that'd be ok. But at this point it just seems the mystery for the rest of the show is which character gets to kill Cersei.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:11 AM
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"The Great Other" is a god, the antithesis to the Lord of Light. The Night King is very powerful, but he's by no means a god. I'm not at all convinced.
Azor Ahai/PTWP/Jon Snow isn't the Lord of Light, either. The battle of the long night is fought by proxies of the LoL and Great Other. I doubt the White Walkers are gone for good. They'll be back in another 10,000 years or so. Just seems to be how things work on Planetos. I do wonder if the seasons will ever be normal. I kind of figured that was caused by WW-based magic.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:13 AM
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GRRM has said that his ending would be bittersweet. Right now, the show looks like a a fairytale ending. I don't think you can really call an ending where the Others are defeated and Jon and/or Dany rule the Seven Kingdoms "bittersweet."

If the show does the ending GRRM planned, I have to think at least one dies. Potentially one kills the other.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:45 AM
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Hell of an episode with a great finish, but not enough key characters died. Several were literally about to be killed for a full ten or fifteen minutes.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:51 AM
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GRRM has said that his ending would be bittersweet. Right now, the show looks like a a fairytale ending. I don't think you can really call an ending where the Others are defeated and Jon and/or Dany rule the Seven Kingdoms "bittersweet."

If the show does the ending GRRM planned, I have to think at least one dies. Potentially one kills the other.
I predicted "Jon kills Dany" a while ago, but I thought it would have prophetic/magical significance for the defeat of the Night King. The books mention how the original Azor Ahai had to temper his sword by plunging it into the chest of his wife, and the sacrifice created Lightbringer.

Now, I'm not sure if there is a point besides shock value. I can't see Jon get worked up about who is on the Iron Throne, unless Dany threatens Sansa or the North somehow. And she kinda redeemed her "mad queen" tendencies by fighting the battle and not running away on her dragon when things got bleak. She even swung a sword herself and killed wights on foot. I'm impressed with Dany's fighting spirit. I expected her to fight on dragonback or else be completely helpless.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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Daenerys seems fairly sane now, which is a shame, because back in the first half of the show, she was kind of nuts. That would have made her a better character.

It would be hard to square their characters with fighting over the Iron Throne. Jon doesn't want it and Daenerys wants nothing more than it. Jon's logical move is to sacrifice his claim to allow Daenerys to take the throne in return for some North independence. The question is whether or not he has to sacrifice his life to do that.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:39 PM
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It's pretty hard for the fight for the iron throne to matter now. I mean, you can't have "the personification of death comes to exterminate all life" be the main threat of the series, handle that, and then expect who sits on the Iron Throne to be all that significant in comparison. You literally just saved all life from a magical army of death that would've snuffed out your entire race. Now we're going to go back to bickering over who gets to sit on a throne?

I mean, I still will be, but it just seems like kind of a Writing 101 sort of error there.
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:14 PM
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It does seem odd that the penultimate battle was the more important one, but I guess we'll see if they have some crazy shit up their sleeves. Maybe Cersei has a White Walker penned up or an army of Mountain-like Frankenwarriors.
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:38 PM
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It does seem odd that the penultimate battle was the more important one, but I guess we'll see if they have some crazy shit up their sleeves. Maybe Cersei has a White Walker penned up or an army of Mountain-like Frankenwarriors.
We've all heard that when the show started, they producers got the broad strokes of the ending from GRRM.

Did those broad strokes include Arya killing the Night King? Maybe, maybe not. I could see that being a "detail" more than a broad stroke.

But the war with the Night King being resolved before the game of thrones is resolved seems like a broad stroke to me, something they got from George.
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:47 PM
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Well it's quite possible that it was George's answer to the Scouring of the Shire. An afterlude as opposed to getting the same amount of play as the big battle against the dark (in the show each will get it's own episode it seems, while in the books, the Battle of KL may be far less in pages than the Battle of Winterfell).
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
We've all heard that when the show started, they producers got the broad strokes of the ending from GRRM.

Did those broad strokes include Arya killing the Night King? Maybe, maybe not. I could see that being a "detail" more than a broad stroke.

But the war with the Night King being resolved before the game of thrones is resolved seems like a broad stroke to me, something they got from George.
The showrunners stated that they have known that Arya would kill the Night King for about 3 years. Since the show premiered 8 years ago, GRRM's 'broad strokes' must have been delivered before that...so "Arya kills the Night King" appears to be a show-only invention.

Also, there is no such character as the "Night King" in the books...at least, not that we've seen so far.
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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There is no reason Melisandre is in Westeros otherwise. She chooses Stannis because she believes him to be the one who will destroy the Others. She constantly speaks about that being her goal. Not because she cares who sits on the Iron Throne.
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Just throwing my support for ISiddqui. Melisandre's entire purpose was to help the living defeat the dead. Azor Ahai is merely the vehicle to help in that purpose.
Ok, I'll concede. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either. If the Night King is an existential threat to the entire world, shouldn't all Red Priests/Red Priestesses be in Westeros for the fight against him, not just Melisandre and Thoros? (It's not clear Thoros has any idea what the game is anyway.) If Melisandre knows and cares, why don't the rest?
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:20 PM
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Is the undead dragon shooting fire? It seems to me to be some sort of magical undead opposite to fire. I could easily fanwank that Daeneris's immunity to fire might actually make her extra susceptible to whatever it is the undead dragon is spewing,
Blue is normally evocative of cold, and of course the undead come along with winter. I assumed it was breathing cold.
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:25 PM
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The Night King is referenced in stories, but IIRC it was a Stark that ruled north of the Wall (the wiki didn't help). Took an Other as his bride? Something like that.

If GRRM ever finishes the books it will be a weird experience to read them given a lot of the show is how I view the world now.
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