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  #101  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:28 PM
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Ok, I'll concede. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either. If the Night King is an existential threat to the entire world, shouldn't all Red Priests/Red Priestesses be in Westeros for the fight against him, not just Melisandre and Thoros? (It's not clear Thoros has any idea what the game is anyway.) If Melisandre knows and cares, why don't the rest?
Her view may not be an orthodox one. Lots of Christians believe in a second coming, but if a priest said it's this one specific guy, I'm not sure he'd have a lot of people following him.
  #102  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:29 PM
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Ok, I'll concede. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either. If the Night King is an existential threat to the entire world, shouldn't all Red Priests/Red Priestesses be in Westeros for the fight against him, not just Melisandre and Thoros? (It's not clear Thoros has any idea what the game is anyway.) If Melisandre knows and cares, why don't the rest?
Melisandre has some ability to see the future. She is also something like 400 years old, so she may be the only red priestess who saw the threat was coming to Westeros in this time.

Thoros was actually sent to KL to try to gain some converts for R'hillor, but I don't think the Red Priests sent him because they thought the threat from the others was coming in his lifetime.

Though Tyrion does come across a red priest in Volantis named Benerro who is preaching that Daenerys is Azor Ahai reborn.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 04-29-2019 at 03:32 PM.
  #103  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:45 PM
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Ok, I'll concede. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either. If the Night King is an existential threat to the entire world, shouldn't all Red Priests/Red Priestesses be in Westeros for the fight against him, not just Melisandre and Thoros? (It's not clear Thoros has any idea what the game is anyway.) If Melisandre knows and cares, why don't the rest?
We have seen red priestresses joining Danaerys in an episode, some season ago. I thought this involvement of the cult of light would be an important element of the story (in fact, I thought it would be one of the elements bringing Danaerys to tyranny and craziness), but it went nowhere.
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  #104  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:12 PM
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The showrunners stated that they have known that Arya would kill the Night King for about 3 years. Since the show premiered 8 years ago, GRRM's 'broad strokes' must have been delivered before that...so "Arya kills the Night King" appears to be a show-only invention.

Also, there is no such character as the "Night King" in the books...at least, not that we've seen so far.
Right. I suspect the "broad strokes" were very broad. The books may end up in the same place, but will take a very different path to get there. Apparently, Hodor's and Shireen's deaths are straight from the mouth of GRRM, and I'd suspect Arya serving the killing blow will be too. But probably everything else will be vastly more complicated and interesting.

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The Night King is referenced in stories, but IIRC it was a Stark that ruled north of the Wall (the wiki didn't help). Took an Other as his bride? Something like that.

If GRRM ever finishes the books it will be a weird experience to read them given a lot of the show is how I view the world now.
The books mention a "Night's King", the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (in comparison, Jon Snow was the 998th LC of the NW) from 8000+ years ago, who is not a White Walker or wight, but married something like it. She and he ruled the Nightfort (a castle at the Wall), made sacrifices to the Others and enslaved the Night's Watch until the King in the North and the King Beyond the Wall teamed up and brought him down. This was comparatively soon after the first Long Night, so we know the WWs weren't eliminated then, just kept behind the wall.

The original Long Night was a generation long. Probably 30 years of darkness at least. Somehow I can't imagine it being like that if all it took was a fast kid stabbing the top Walker to end it. Although they didn't have Valyrian steel back then.

Am I the only one who wonders if they'll rebuild the Wall? Or tear it down? What will be the fate of the Night's Watch? I know Edd died and Jon got a mulligan, but Sam is still a sworn brother, even if nobody else is left. But he is supposed to be Lord of Horn Hill, right?
  #105  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:31 PM
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Right. I suspect the "broad strokes" were very broad. The books may end up in the same place, but will take a very different path to get there. Apparently, Hodor's and Shireen's deaths are straight from the mouth of GRRM, and I'd suspect Arya serving the killing blow will be too. But probably everything else will be vastly more complicated and interesting....
Disagree about the very different path to get there. GRRM has about fifteen or twenty million reasons (or whatever HBO paid him) to not vary too much from how D&D have chosen to write the last few seasons. There probably will be a lot more description of food and clothing than we saw in the show though.

Moreover, and this might be a bit more controversial, even without the show, I don't think GRRM now could write the last two books with the same mindset and skill (and maybe editing) with which he wrote the first three. That guy isn't coming back. And probably didn't know how to finish the series from there anyway. So, I agree with you that Shireen's death probably is right from the mouth of GRRM, but it's today's GRRM, not the guy who wrote, e.g., A Clash of Kings.
  #106  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:10 PM
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Disagree about the very different path to get there. GRRM has about fifteen or twenty million reasons (or whatever HBO paid him) to not vary too much from how D&D have chosen to write the last few seasons.
You think HBO bought the rights to the show contingent on them getting to dictate how the story went? That sounds pretty far fetched to me.
  #107  
Old 04-29-2019, 06:24 PM
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Albert Burneko has a magnificently snarky review of 8.03.
  #108  
Old 04-29-2019, 06:37 PM
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I think the Red Witch thought her work was done - and maybe lighting up all the swords and the barricade just exhausted her and used up all her remaining magic.


Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, IIRC from the books.
Orys Baratheon, the founder of the House Baratheon, was a bastard child of a Targaryen, Aegon the Conquerer's uncle. Robert's grandmother was also a Targaryen, one of the daughters or Aegon V (Egg, from Dunk and Egg). Pretty much every major house is related to the others through the years, but the Baratheons and Targaryens are closer than most.
  #109  
Old 04-29-2019, 06:45 PM
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Disagree about the very different path to get there. GRRM has about fifteen or twenty million reasons (or whatever HBO paid him) to not vary too much from how D&D have chosen to write the last few seasons. There probably will be a lot more description of food and clothing than we saw in the show though.
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You think HBO bought the rights to the show contingent on them getting to dictate how the story went? That sounds pretty far fetched to me.
So way they would constrain George on what he can or can't write. Whether he will or not is a different discussion, but he absolutely has the freedom to write what he wants. He owns the IP, full stop, HBO only owns the adaptation rights.

I suspect George will run far afield of the TV shows since half the stuff he wants to do isn't fully formed in his head yet, by his own admission. He famously doesn't do outlines, all he knows is what he thinks he wants to happen, but if you know anything at all about the history of these books he's changed course many times over the decades making the story much longer and broader. Will the NK lose, of course, will Arya kill him, possibly, will there be a battle at Winterfell survived by all the heroes we know and love, I highly doubt it.

Last edited by Omniscient; 04-29-2019 at 06:46 PM.
  #110  
Old 04-29-2019, 07:41 PM
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I'm not surprised TV-Edd died, but Book-Edd is on my very short list of people I think will survive till the very end. Like... he's too awesome to just kill off, too inconsequential to have his death be in-story a big deal. He can't throw him away, can't make him a hero. Plus he has to be so much fun to write. How can the last written scenes of what remains of the NW not have some droll little quip from him? (Sam is also on my list because he's so clearly an author avatar. And that might be my entire list. Those two.)

Arya killing the main Other... it worked fine as far as the show goes and while I don't want anything bad to happen to her and I'd love for her to be The Big Hero, I just don't see that as being where the books are going. And if it *is* what happens, it won't be the same how and why. Maybe FM send her. Maybe no one knows she's there and she pops out surprising the reader. Maybe Bran dies... or Meera, if she's still around by then.

Jorah and Theon are 100% dead by that point in the books. Heroic redemption arcs, but maybe not exactly the same way.

I reflect on S3 through the end of book material and there are many significant changes. Sure, the beats are still there, the overall story, but there are layers missing. So I'm sure some of the things are close to the same, but I read the books for much more than the highlights. I don't take the show as anything close to what will happen in the books in a deep sense, even if some of the characters might do some of the same things.
  #111  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:23 PM
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So way they would constrain George on what he can or can't write. Whether he will or not is a different discussion, but he absolutely has the freedom to write what he wants. He owns the IP, full stop, HBO only owns the adaptation rights.

I suspect George will run far afield of the TV shows since half the stuff he wants to do isn't fully formed in his head yet, by his own admission. He famously doesn't do outlines, all he knows is what he thinks he wants to happen, but if you know anything at all about the history of these books he's changed course many times over the decades making the story much longer and broader. Will the NK lose, of course, will Arya kill him, possibly, will there be a battle at Winterfell survived by all the heroes we know and love, I highly doubt it.
Why? So as not to kill the market for the later seasons of the TV show, or of any derivative works, if Martin goes completely in another direction for the last couple of books. Moreover, given the writer's block we can infer he has with finishing this series, it's got to be awfully tempting to use the show as a template, flesh it out slightly differently, crank the books out and finally put this thing behind him. Or I'm just bitter from how Stephen King finished The Dark Tower series in a similar rushed, different from the first books, manner. No big TV show to guide King though.

I'm surprised HBO didn't get all of the IP rights from him, or at least as an exclusive licensee.
  #112  
Old 04-29-2019, 10:43 PM
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Orys Baratheon, the founder of the House Baratheon, was a bastard child of a Targaryen, Aegon the Conquerer's uncle. Robert's grandmother was also a Targaryen, one of the daughters or Aegon V (Egg, from Dunk and Egg). Pretty much every major house is related to the others through the years, but the Baratheons and Targaryens are closer than most.
Ah, thanks. I'd forgotten that. Love the connection to Egg!
  #113  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:22 PM
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Martin is going all in on the GoT prequel. He is the show runner there.
I am guessing a lot of the ”Others” storyline, which was supposed to be in Winds of Winter has been transferred to that show.
  #114  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:33 PM
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Why? So as not to kill the market for the later seasons of the TV show, or of any derivative works, if Martin goes completely in another direction for the last couple of books. Moreover, given the writer's block we can infer he has with finishing this series, it's got to be awfully tempting to use the show as a template, flesh it out slightly differently, crank the books out and finally put this thing behind him. Or I'm just bitter from how Stephen King finished The Dark Tower series in a similar rushed, different from the first books, manner. No big TV show to guide King though.



I'm surprised HBO didn't get all of the IP rights from him, or at least as an exclusive licensee.
That definitely doesn't track with who GRRM is. I mean this is the guy who said what a year or two ago that he realized a main character death was 'obvious' even though he hadn't thought of it before, implying the character was still alive in the show.

The dude doesn't seem like the guy who gives a shit about what the show does.

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  #115  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:19 AM
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We're talking here as if GRRM will ever write these books. It seems clear to me that they're fictional, in the sense that they will never be written on this literary plane.
  #116  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:56 AM
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Why? So as not to kill the market for the later seasons of the TV show, or of any derivative works, if Martin goes completely in another direction for the last couple of books. Moreover, given the writer's block we can infer he has with finishing this series, it's got to be awfully tempting to use the show as a template, flesh it out slightly differently, crank the books out and finally put this thing behind him. Or I'm just bitter from how Stephen King finished The Dark Tower series in a similar rushed, different from the first books, manner. No big TV show to guide King though.

I'm surprised HBO didn't get all of the IP rights from him, or at least as an exclusive licensee.

OTOH, suppose Martin does in fact finish the series, and it has a TON of differences, important ones.

So two years after the last book is published HBO starts filming "Game of Thrones -- The True Version." Hey, ten more years of a property that made them millions, why not? How many times have people started over again with Superman or Sherlock Holmes or Robin Hood or whatever?
  #117  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:08 AM
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And, of course, it would result in increased sales for the books. If the books and show track exactly many would say well I already know the story. If there are significant differences, but it ends in roughly the same place, then people may be more intrigued to read Winds of Winder and Dream of Summer.
  #118  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:12 AM
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It's pretty hard for the fight for the iron throne to matter now. I mean, you can't have "the personification of death comes to exterminate all life" be the main threat of the series, handle that, and then expect who sits on the Iron Throne to be all that significant in comparison. You literally just saved all life from a magical army of death that would've snuffed out your entire race. Now we're going to go back to bickering over who gets to sit on a throne?

I mean, I still will be, but it just seems like kind of a Writing 101 sort of error there.
I actually kind of like this.

1) It's a death which subverts our narrative expectations, about which GoT watchers cannot really complain.

2) The NK/LoL fight is incredibly Manichean and actually what's made GoT interesting for so long was the fact that all our heroes and villains had shades of grey. Dispensing with the forces of pure evil opens up the scope for some proper morally ambiguous scenarios to take place.

3) It's subverting fantasy tropes, another strong point of the series. "After the Evil Wizard was defeated, the Good King reigned for a 100 peaceful years, the People of the Dale put aside their long rivalry with the Hillfolk, the Citadel opened its gates to outsiders and all was well in the land. And the wedding of Princess Doris to the young dung farmer Herbert, who had proven his worth to all, marked the beginning of a new era of peace and plumpness." How about, no? Let's look at the immediate aftermath of WWII. How long after the forces of literal evil were defeated before the US and allies on side and the Russians on the other were subtly maneuvering against one another? Trick question, it was already happening before V.J. day. Hell, how long before the allies started, if not in-fighting, then jostling for position and advantage? History doesn't stop, and in a land with Westeros's history of constant political and military turmoil, it's a big ask to assume that hatchet-burying is even an option.

The foreshadowing of this was done clumsily, in that it was largely done by making Sansa not only say it, which is fine, but say it to Daenerys, which was dumb. But unsubtlety aside, we're now in a really interesting place.

Do the North/South alliance really have the resources to take on Cersei?
Can they stay together long enough to give it a go?
Pick a character at random. How divided are their loyalties? Which bonds will break and which hold?
Who turns on whom first?

We just saw a decent-ish zombie movie. Which is fine for a change of pace. But that's not why I watch GoT.
  #119  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:19 AM
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Yeah, I'm not that broken up about the NK getting dealt with first. However, I would like to see some scheming going on now as they are on the way to KL, but I'm not sure the showrunners can really plot that well. I mean they turned Tyrion into a dolt.
  #120  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:03 PM
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My hunch on the Night King’s demise and the “choice” in the show to have Arya be the executioner has less to do with the show going its own way, and more to do with the ongoing adaptation decision to leave out Lady Stoneheart from the books.

I suspect that in the books, it will be Stoneheart who takes down the Night King, in a last act of humanity and motherhood. She does it to save Bran and she does it with the same dagger that was once meant for Bran’s assassination.

Since Stoneheart isn’t in the show, the writers have adapted her main story beats as part of the Sansa and Arya plot lines, with Sansa asserting her own agency to deal justice to the Boltons and with Arya doing in the Freys. Beric continues to lead the Brotherhood, and he shows up in Winterfell to pay off the Red God’s investment in seeing the Night King destroyed.

So the show “choice” to have Arya do the deed wasn’t the show just making up some surprising twist to thwart everyone’s favorite fan theory; it was just in keeping with their adaptational decisions about how to represent the Stoneheart material in the show.

And no, this isn’t my own beloved Promised Prince theory. I only came to it after watching the episode and pondering Beric’s role in it and how that might intersect with the different elements in play in the books.

As for the various prophecies - they can’t all be right and maybe none of them are. Ancient mystical mumbo-jumbo is a poor basis for planning one’s life and maybe just as poor for developing fan theories.
  #121  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:51 PM
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My hunch on the Night King’s demise and the “choice” in the show to have Arya be the executioner has less to do with the show going its own way, and more to do with the ongoing adaptation decision to leave out Lady Stoneheart from the books.

I suspect that in the books, it will be Stoneheart who takes down the Night King, in a last act of humanity and motherhood. She does it to save Bran and she does it with the same dagger that was once meant for Bran’s assassination.
It's an interesting idea, but there's almost nothing in the books that suggests it. Lady Stoneheart is basically pure, undiluted vengeance. There is no Night King in the book either, if the Others have a leader we haven't seen him yet. For this to be true to Stoneheart's character to date, we'd need an awfully lot of totally new build up, a bunch of character movement and she'd somehow have to come to blame the leader of the Others for what happened to her family, which at this point in the books is entirely on the Lannisters' and Boltons' shoulders.
  #122  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:22 PM
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It's an interesting idea, but there's almost nothing in the books that suggests it. Lady Stoneheart is basically pure, undiluted vengeance. There is no Night King in the book either, if the Others have a leader we haven't seen him yet. For this to be true to Stoneheart's character to date, we'd need an awfully lot of totally new build up, a bunch of character movement and she'd somehow have to come to blame the leader of the Others for what happened to her family, which at this point in the books is entirely on the Lannisters' and Boltons' shoulders.
OTOH, she was raised by the Lord of Light. And the last we see of her, she's stringing up Brienne, until Brienne shouts "a word". It's possible that she goes North when she learns her daughters are alive and need help?

I think that the culling of the (f)Aegon plot has neutered Varys. Varys had a very big role to play in helping Aegon come over - killing Kevan and Pycelle, probably helping getting the Golden Company on their side. Trying to graft that onto Dany hasn't worked that well.
  #123  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:59 PM
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OTOH, she was raised by the Lord of Light. And the last we see of her, she's stringing up Brienne, until Brienne shouts "a word". It's possible that she goes North when she learns her daughters are alive and need help?
Maybe. I dislike the idea of death conquering death, Lord of Light notwithstanding.
  #124  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:25 PM
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Albert Burneko has a magnificently snarky review of 8.03.
While I am more sympathetic and charitable regarding most things, it is inescapably true that Cersei made the right move. She gambled that everyone else would defeat the undead and be beaten up in the process, and that is exactly what happened.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:35 PM
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While I am more sympathetic and charitable regarding most things, it is inescapably true that Cersei made the right move. She gambled that everyone else would defeat the undead and be beaten up in the process, and that is exactly what happened.
Yeah, I'm not buying that. The fact that the living's hail mary pass paid off, does not make it the wise choice. 999 out of a 1000 times the dead win and Cersei gets steamrolled. Winning the lottery doesn't make it a "good bet".
  #126  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:35 PM
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Maybe. I dislike the idea of death conquering death, Lord of Light notwithstanding.
Would you have a similar reaction if Jon was the one who gave the killing blow in the book telling?
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:40 PM
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We'll see what the undead Jon is like in the books. Show Jon is still Jon after the thing. Beric is still Beric. Lady Stoneheart is decidedly not Catelyn.
  #128  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:42 PM
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We'll see what the undead Jon is like in the books. Show Jon is still Jon after the thing. Beric is still Beric. Lady Stoneheart is decidedly not Catelyn.
That is very optimistic of you. I don't think we are getting any more books.
  #129  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:44 PM
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I think it's a bit unclear if Lady Stoneheart is much different than Catelyn would have been if she had survived the Red Wedding and had to live with a bunch of outlaws. That is, how much of her personality change is from being resurrected and how much is from the extremely traumatic shit she just went through?
  #130  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:52 PM
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There's a whole lot of "show writing sucks, they can't do it without source material, GRRM will make a better ending" sentiment out there.

I'm absolutely critical of the way the show writers have had a lot of things. But I'm tired of this all this lavish praise for GRRM.

Yes, the show was better when we had source material. But the lack of source material is not the showrunners' fault, it's GRRM's. It's not as though they arrogantly decided to end the series on their own against his wishes - he had 9 years to come up with new material for them to adapt into an ending and he just punted the idea.

Here's the reality: you're not going to get this great, thoughtful GRRM ending, because he's never going to write an ending. Creating an interesting beginning and middle of a complex story is hard.... but not as hard as creating an ending to a complex story that ties it all together. He knows that, and he knows he can't write an ending that lives up to the rest of the story, so he's not even going to try. He's going to lie to his audience about his willingness to do it, and simply never do it.

So while I'm all about criticizing the show writers for what they've done, I hate when people say "oh the show writers are so dumb! they can't write without source material! GRRM's ending will be amazing!" - at least the show writers are fucking trying to end it, which makes their ending better than GRRM's non-existent ending.

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  #131  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:02 PM
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Yeah, I'm not buying that. The fact that the living's hail mary pass paid off, does not make it the wise choice. 999 out of a 1000 times the dead win and Cersei gets steamrolled. Winning the lottery doesn't make it a "good bet".
Given the monstrous Achilles heel the Night King had, maybe it wasn't a lottery win. Maybe it was the odds on bet.
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  #132  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:11 PM
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… I'm tired of this all this lavish praise for GRRM.

Yes, the show was better when we had source material. But the lack of source material is not the showrunners' fault, it's GRRM's. It's not as though they arrogantly decided to end the series on their own against his wishes - he had 9 years to come up with new material for them to adapt into an ending and he just punted the idea.
I'll go one further: A fair portion of what GRRM wrote wasn't the end-all be-all either.

He would go on for pages describing the wardrobe and food at some shindig or another. His cuts from story to story showing what was happening to various characters required readers to go back and forth multiple times within the overall story timeline.

And -- my personal biggest peeve -- he introduced a new character roughly halfway through the series, spent half a book detailing his journey and exploits, and then just killed the guy off. Way to waste my time, George.

The man built an entire world, and I give him props for being very detail-oriented in how he did it. The thing is, a lot of those details weren't necessary -- or even helpful -- in advancing the story.
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  #133  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:22 PM
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I think it's a bit unclear if Lady Stoneheart is much different than Catelyn would have been if she had survived the Red Wedding and had to live with a bunch of outlaws. That is, how much of her personality change is from being resurrected and how much is from the extremely traumatic shit she just went through?
This is close to my thinking. Stoneheart is motivated by vengeance, but that vengeance itself is also motivated. The Boltons and Freys hurt her baby and they are going to pay for it.

It’s not as layered as Cat, but it’s not alien to her character either. It’s as if, in her newly revived state, she is first and foremost defined by her last living thoughts.

I think the interesting thing to ponder is - what happens to Stoneheart if she succeeds in taking down the traitor houses but the Lord of Light won’t give her the rest of death any more than he did with Beric? And if her only book purpose is to be an avatar of vengeance and then wither or die, then I can’t blame the show writers for ditching her in favor of living characters we care about, nor can I side with Martin in advocating to keep her on the show.

Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, I have to think that Stoneheart has some very compelling story in her future but the show writers still felt they could capture the same essence of the story using the Stark daughters, with the added practical benefit of not having to keep Fairley on contract in a demoted role for five seasons. That does imply that the more relevant beats of the Stoneheart story are still in the show, they are just layered into other characters - principally Cat’s daughters.

The show spent significant calories pointing out all the ways the Lord of Light was influencing events at Winterfell. It occurs to me that if this is a critical element of the story’s architecture, we’ll see the book doing something similar with its tableau of characters (chiefly, one less Beric and one more Stoneheart).
  #134  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:34 PM
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And -- my personal biggest peeve -- he introduced a new character roughly halfway through the series, spent half a book detailing his journey and exploits, and then just killed the guy off. Way to waste my time, George.

The man built an entire world, and I give him props for being very detail-oriented in how he did it. The thing is, a lot of those details weren't necessary -- or even helpful -- in advancing the story.
Eh, Quentyn had literally 4 chapters. And the chapters were interesting to the lengths that Doran Martell had been going to bring the Targaryens to the Iron Throne (a companion to the Arianne chapters in A Feast for Crows). I thought it was interesting how he was playing the long game.

I think that the details add texture to the world and make it far more interesting. The story is about all of these machinations and not merely about a handful of main characters. At least it isn't to me (Heck, Doran Martell is one of my favorite characters).

One can make the same objection, btw, to Oberyn in the show. In the books, Oberyn doesn't get any POV chapters, but in the show is treated far more like a new major character. And then gets killed. For nothing much (because Dorne in the show is basically a non-entity).
  #135  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:36 PM
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I'm with Snarky, Catelyn's last act as a living being was to murder an innocent for revenge.
  #136  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:39 PM
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The show spent significant calories pointing out all the ways the Lord of Light was influencing events at Winterfell. It occurs to me that if this is a critical element of the story’s architecture, we’ll see the book doing something similar with its tableau of characters (chiefly, one less Beric and one more Stoneheart).
I am remembering Beric's sacrifice so that the Hound and Arya could get away from the Army of the Dead. I could see Cat sacrificing herself in the same way for her daughter (which, truth be told would be a far more powerful of a scene).
  #137  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:58 PM
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I think it's a bit unclear if Lady Stoneheart is much different than Catelyn would have been if she had survived the Red Wedding and had to live with a bunch of outlaws. That is, how much of her personality change is from being resurrected and how much is from the extremely traumatic shit she just went through?
Catelyn Stark was not a good person. She was hateful towards Jon. She shirked her duty to Winterfell when Bran was injured. She released Jamie against orders. She arrested Tyrion without much evidence and allowed him to be tried by an insane person, even after he saved her life. And she murdered an innocent girl out of rage.

I always thought Lady Stoneheart was the essence of Catelyn Stark, including her rage and unwillingness to see reason.
  #138  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:02 PM
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Catelyn Stark was not a good person. She was hateful towards Jon. She shirked her duty to Winterfell when Bran was injured. She released Jamie against orders. She arrested Tyrion without much evidence and allowed him to be tried by an insane person, even after he saved her life. And she murdered an innocent girl out of rage.

I always thought Lady Stoneheart was the essence of Catelyn Stark, including her rage and unwillingness to see reason.
Agree with you and the others who don't see Catelyn as a good person.
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  #139  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:38 PM
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So while I'm all about criticizing the show writers for what they've done, I hate when people say "oh the show writers are so dumb! they can't write without source material! GRRM's ending will be amazing!" - at least the show writers are fucking trying to end it, which makes their ending better than GRRM's non-existent ending.
Yeah. He's getting close to a decade to figure a way through the story and isn't anywhere close. Maybe hasn't even started. The show doesn't have that luxury. I'm willing to cut them a lot of slack. If GRRM does manage to finish the story, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't much better than the show.
  #140  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:53 AM
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At this point, Martin is in a position where he's either going to be writing a "novelization" of the show, which will inevitably be just as mediocre and forgettable as those things always are, or he'll be writing a different story and it'll just be a thing for people to be pissed off about.
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  #141  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:21 AM
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In "Pride and Prejudice" there's a character called Lady de Bourgh(?) who has a sickly/weak/passive(?) daughter named Anne. Now Anne has basically never done anything, but her mother is constantly comparing other people's accomplishments unfavorably with what her daughter WOULD do, except for the fact that she doesn't do them because she's too fragile/delicate/sensitive whatever.

For sometime now I've been seeing a relationship between Lady de Bourgh and some of the more fanatical fans of GRRM.
  #142  
Old 05-08-2019, 11:06 AM
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Eh, Quentyn had literally 4 chapters. And the chapters were interesting to the lengths that Doran Martell had been going to bring the Targaryens to the Iron Throne (a companion to the Arianne chapters in A Feast for Crows). I thought it was interesting how he was playing the long game.
I was thinking some more about this and wanted to add, the Quentyn storyline also may be important because Doran may take this as a sign to back (f)Aegon over Dany. After all, he still has a daughter to marry to a (supposed) Targaryen, but his son was burned to a crisp trying to marry a Targaryen (who wouldn't have done so anyways).

Really it seems the removal of the Aegon storyline, while at the time understandable, really left a massive storytelling hole for the show (as it seems to be essential for what's going on at Storm's End and Dorne which are kind of nonentities in the show at the moment - because c'mon Cersei would have definitely have named some Wardens for Storm's End and the Reach by now).
  #143  
Old 05-12-2019, 12:32 PM
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The episodic threads feature people a lot of people talking about what a genius GRRM is and how the show writers are awful retards who are totally lost without him, and those threads aren't a good point for this comparisons, so I'm going to respond here to see if I can move the discussion over.

This was something I posted over there that I probably shouldn't, on account of the no book talk rules, but it was driving me nuts:

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Alright, I wasn't going to post anything about this in this thread, but can we please stop the fucking GRRM worship? You know what his ending is? Nothing. He's just not going to do it. Creating an interesting beginning and middle of a story is easier than sticking a complex ending. That's why he's not even going to bother. And apparently this is his best move, because his fans are just going to assume that his ending would've been awesome with him not even bothering to do it.

The showrunners don't have the option of just deciding not to finish it, so they're stuck trying to land the complex ending. They're largely failing at it. But I'm so tired of hearing about how dumb the show writers are how much better the great GRRM would do it. Well, he's not going to, probably because he can't.

He had 9 years during the show's run to give a good ending that they could adapt. He didn't. So a lot of the criticism here should go to him, but instead people worship him even though he has completely failed here. The idea that he should be praised because of some imaginary ending he never wrote and will never write instead of being criticized is maddening.

I'm fine with criticizing the decline in the quality of writing of the show - I'm doing that as much as anyone. But I'm tired of all of the "oh the show runners are just morons who never knew how to write and only tricked audiences into thinking the first few seasons are good because of the infallible GRRM" bullshit.
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Nice strawman you invented. Nobody is "worshipping" Martin, but he's clearly a better storyteller than the showrunners.

You're the one whose been babbling about the writing and plots being dumbed down for the unsophisticated masses. Make up your mind.

So yes, the show is dumber now. The writing quality in season 7 and 8 is definitely a disappointment. It's clearly worse than 1-4, and generally worse than 5-6. It's disappointing that the showrunners don't have a better ending up their sleeves. And they're worse (and seemingly less interested) at writing a good story in general as they were before.

But "but GRRM would've done it better and the show writers are lost without him!" is bullshit.

GRRM didn't do it better. He's not going to do it better. It's way easier to write an interesting beginning and middle than landing an ending. He gets to run out the clock, pretend he's going to write an ending, pretend it's amazing, and then die. Then all his fans will say "OMG, GRRM's ending to the series would've been the most amazing thing ever! Too bad he only had 15 years to write it before he died! He never had a chance to finish it!"

Here's the thing: At every stage, the show writers are creating a better story than GRRM did. Seasons 1-4 are better than books 1-3. They're an excellent adaptation, but a lot of the best material in those seasons is original to the show. Various scenes, like the Cersei-Robert scene in season 1 talking about their marriage, the Arya-Tywin plotline, and various others are original creations of the show and just as good as anything else. The idea that they can only adapt the material directly is bullshit. They used to be able to engage in great writing.

Now - it's easier to adapt a story, generally, than to create one. So they had an advantage. They got to pick the good stuff, trim out the bad stuff, and add their own good stuff to an existing framework. So I'm not saying the show writers are better than GRRM. But I am saying seasons 1-4 are a better version of the story than books 1-3.

Now, season 5-6 of the show suffered a clear decline in quality, but still very good. Similarly, books 4-5 suffered a clear decline in quality too. If D&D had adapted books 4-5 as closely as they did 1-3, it would've been a boring mess. We would've had literally 4 hours of Brienne walking around asking every fucking person in Westeros if they'd seen a girl of 3 and 10 with red hair. We'd have Penny the Dwarf and even more time spent on the boring part of Mereen's politics. Books 4-5 are meandering to a ridiculous degree. A direct adaptation would've been pretty boring. So even though seasons 5-6 are clearly worse than 1-4, I'd say they're still better than books 4-5.

So seasons 7-8 are a clear decline from even 5-6. Things are just falling apart in writing here. Previous strengths of the series, like great dialogue and powerful character scenes, are just mostly gone. Plots become less logical. A lot more stupid stuff. So clearly the show here is worse than the books, because...... wait. There are no books. Huh, that's weird. Didn't GRRM have a decade to make something happen here to finish the story? Oh, he's been writing other series and more worldbuilding books for ASOIAF instead? Huh.

The show writers are faced with a necessity to wrap up and bring together a complex story and they're doing a mostly bad job of it. Surely GRRM did better! Wait, no, he didn't, because when he had to wrap up this story in a satisfying way, he just didn't. He decided fuck it, too hard, not going to bother.

So now we're saying the show runners are so terrible, they clearly don't know how to write, they only rode the coat tails of the great GRRM, who clearly would write an amazing ending! Except, of course, he didn't. Because when he lost interest in writing the ending, he just stopped. The show runners couldn't do that and had to give us something.

Who's to say that GRRM's version of the ending would be better? "But he wrote a good beginning and middle, so he'd write a good ending too!" - well the show runners wrote a good beginning and middle too, and yet the ending is unsatisfying. You can't assume GRRM has some amazing fantastic ending just ready to go, because all we know is that he hasn't written an ending and very likely will not write an ending.

So - seasons 1-4, better than books 1-3. Seasons 5-6, better than books 4-5. Seasons 7-8, better than non-existent books that the writer gave up on because it's too had to wrap up his story in a satisfying way.

No matter how you read it, GRRM is not a hero here. He had 10 years to give the writers of the show something to adapt as an ending, and he just stopped. He stopped being involved in the show at all, and gave them a vague outline at best. This is his dereliction of duty more than theirs.

So I'm really fucking sick of seeing "D&D had to finish a story GRRM has decided was too hard to finish, his non-existent version is way way better! D&D are terrible and worthless!" - lavishing praise on an ending they're sure will be amazing even though it will never exist, and using that as a way to attack the guys who actually did have to write an ending to the story.
  #144  
Old 05-12-2019, 01:18 PM
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I am trying to figure out why some fans are still ticked off by a cameo scene with Ed Sheeran. It's not like he's the first singer to have a cameo in a movie or TV show.
  #145  
Old 05-12-2019, 02:03 PM
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Yeah. He's getting close to a decade to figure a way through the story and isn't anywhere close. Maybe hasn't even started. The show doesn't have that luxury. I'm willing to cut them a lot of slack. If GRRM does manage to finish the story, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't much better than the show.
I have a suspicion ASOIAF is headed for a finish put together posthumously from author's notes, unless he leaves instructions to not do that, and then maybe even if he does. At least then there will be someone else to blame.

He may have either consciosuly or subconsciously figured that he doesn't really have to finish the whole megillah, at least not on a deadline. Maybe it's that he does really need two whole doorstoppers taking a decade to write to achieve that. Or it could be that he has assembled so much of a world and a history that it has taken a life of its own and turned on its creator, and he has lost control of it, so there cannot come an "End of History" with everyone's arc getting resolved without creating more loose ends.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-12-2019 at 02:06 PM.
  #146  
Old 05-12-2019, 07:29 PM
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I read someplace (which I can't now find) that the details of the whole story have grown so complex that he relies on a couple of uber-fans to verify facts and background information that he's forgotten. So yes, in a way, it's gotten away from him.
  #147  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:03 AM
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I personally think the books, if they ever do actually get written will have the same basic bullet points of what the TV series has, but do it with a lot more credibility. Danys lighting up KL was not justified character wise in the show, but maybe in the books.
  #148  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:37 AM
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I read someplace (which I can't now find) that the details of the whole story have grown so complex that he relies on a couple of uber-fans to verify facts and background information that he's forgotten. So yes, in a way, it's gotten away from him.
Is this uncommon? I know that Stephen King employ(s/ed) an uber fan as a researcher of his own books, as well.
  #149  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:43 AM
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I personally think the books, if they ever do actually get written will have the same basic bullet points of what the TV series has, but do it with a lot more credibility. Danys lighting up KL was not justified character wise in the show, but maybe in the books.
This is what I think (and hope). Plus it would avoid all the little but still infuriating lousy writing bits -- like GRRM's Qyburn would have hightailed his ass on a pre-arranged escape route, on a ship to Pentos or something, as soon as the battle appeared to be lost. No way he'd stick around out of loyalty to Cersei. He'd have been embezzling for months to make sure he had enough just in case things went south.
  #150  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:20 AM
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Interestingly there's actually a lot of evidence in the books that the Mad King wasn't mad initially, and was actually driven mad by Tywin Lannister.

They were friends, Tywin was his hand, but it was possible that the King was either having an affair, or indeed just raping Joanna, Tywin's wife. Possibly justification (with hair colours, and mutations), than none of Jamie, Cersei or Tyrion were actually Lannisters. Paranoia grew and Cersei was denied a marriage to Rhaegar and Jamie, Tywin's in effect heir, got taken into the kingsguard.

I'm unsure of the timeline of it, but in effect Aerys got kidnapped at the Defiance of Duskendale, probably set up by Tywin, and it was expected he was going to die with that. Barristan the bold rescued him after a six month siege, he got rid of Tywin, and in effect became the Mad King after that... His paranoia may well have justified...
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