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  #51  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:55 PM
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Edited in episode title: "The Last of the Starks"

That doesn't exactly bode well considering how "The Last of the Mohicans" turned out for the Mohicans.
  #52  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:55 PM
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You sure as hell can tell him that, Dany was 100% right in that conversation. The only way for it not to become an issue was if he kept his mouth shut. There was absolutely no reason anyone needed to know.
Bit tough to demand someone else live a lie, IMO. Dude just learns a massive secret about his lineage and demanding he doesn't tell anyone else is asking for trouble. Seems completely unrealistic to indicate someone just keep their mouth shut about something that big.

Now if Dany and Jon come out with it to their trusted advisers and Jon swears his loyalty to Dany, then you may have scheming, but a lot of it would be nipped in the bud - as a lot of this convo between Tyrion and Varys seems to be them thinking Dany doesn't know this information.
  #53  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:56 PM
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If they needed to kill a dragon, they should have done it last episode. If they needed to make Euron and Cersei a real threat, and to defeat Dany's fleet, then they could have wounded, but not killed, the remaining dragon, taking them out of the fight. And if they really wanted to do it this way, they should have earned it - have Rhaegal go out fighting... crashing into the fleet, burning and sinking several of them before he succumbs. But they probably didn't have the budget for that.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:57 PM
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Edited in episode title: "The Last of the Starks"

That doesn't exactly bode well considering how "The Last of the Mohicans" turned out for the Mohicans.
Interesting. Well, Jon's not a Stark and Bran is abdicating which is basically the end of the line.

They should have Bran get someone pregnant while Sansa rules until his child comes of age.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:59 PM
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If they needed to kill a dragon, they should have done it last episode. If they needed to make Euron and Cersei a real threat, and to defeat Dany's fleet, then they could have wounded, but not killed, the remaining dragon, taking them out of the fight. And if they really wanted to do it this way, they should have earned it - have Rhaegal go out fighting... crashing into the fleet, burning and sinking several of them before he succumbs. But they probably didn't have the budget for that.
Shocked the fuck out of me. Only saw it coming about five seconds before it happened. ....thank you Hollywood for training me to see stuff like that.

"Oh loook how majestic the dragons are...wait..why is this shot STILL lingering on the dragons??"
  #56  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:59 PM
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I was really hoping Sam (I think he would be most appropriate), should have said "Now his watch has ended" for Edd (and any other Night's Watch folk)
Speaking of, guess there isn't a lot of need for that anymore with the Night King gone and Wildlings allied (or at least a lot less of a threat)
IMHO Arya could definitely get in the Red Keep, and I hope we see her do so.

Jon is in D&D terms "Lawful Stupid", though I do think he would have kept quiet had he not been confronted by Sansa and Arya.

Brian
  #57  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:00 PM
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Those are scorpions/ballista, not trebuchets.
Sorry. I thought I remembered ballista but I pasted in what I saw earlier.
  #58  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:00 PM
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If they needed to kill a dragon, they should have done it last episode. If they needed to make Euron and Cersei a real threat, and to defeat Dany's fleet, then they could have wounded, but not killed, the remaining dragon, taking them out of the fight. And if they really wanted to do it this way, they should have earned it - have Rhaegal go out fighting... crashing into the fleet, burning and sinking several of them before he succumbs. But they probably didn't have the budget for that.
Heh. Last episode, everyone was complaining that the deaths were telegraphed and staged for maximum drama, that nobody had the shocking-death-from-nowhere that characterizes GoT.

I didn't like how the ships weren't shown before the shots came, but I absolutely liked that the death was shocking and sudden. Euron is a threat because he's a poisonous backstabber, and a sneak attack on the dragon is the closest he can come to backstabbing it.

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  #59  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:02 PM
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Jon is in D&D terms "Lawful Stupid", though I do think he would have kept quiet had he not been confronted by Sansa and Arya.
That's part and parcel of her demanding his silence though. He had to seem like he was completely on her side because she was thinking he was thinking of taking her claim. It made her happy, but then Sansa and Arya were WTF, why are you selling out the North. If he backed Sansa and Arya there, Dany would have gotten pissed and thought he was trying to take the Iron Throne even though he said he didn't want it.
  #60  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:04 PM
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Varys and Illyrio meet under the Red Keep and plotted bringing Targaryens back to power from the beginning.

https://youtu.be/YUjPBtlhBls?t=50
At that point, however, Viserys, who is a total idiot and would make an even worse king than Robert, is still the Targaryen heir. It's even more obscure why Varys would be plotting a Targaryen restoration.
  #61  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:04 PM
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If they needed to kill a dragon, they should have done it last episode. If they needed to make Euron and Cersei a real threat, and to defeat Dany's fleet, then they could have wounded, but not killed, the remaining dragon, taking them out of the fight. And if they really wanted to do it this way, they should have earned it - have Rhaegal go out fighting... crashing into the fleet, burning and sinking several of them before he succumbs. But they probably didn't have the budget for that.
My issue is how the hell Euron can sneak up on a fleet that has air cover in daytime on a clear day while sailing with great big, black sails.

They should never have been able to surprise the dragons.

Not to mention Euron has a real knack for finding people in the ocean. I mean, even if you know where your enemy is starting and ending and, roughly, the course they will take finding people at sea is hard. Ask the U-Boat captains in WWII.

Not to mention all Daenerys had to do was fly Drogon behind Euron's ships and nuke them. Their forward firing crossbows could not fire backwards.

I get it is TV and does not need to be hyper-accurate but freaking Euron is Johnny-on-the-spot over and over and over. It strains credulity even for TV.
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  #62  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:09 PM
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Is Danny going to put some armor on that last dragon now? Its the only way I can think of for her to light up the city after seeing all those ballistas surrounding the city.
  #63  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:10 PM
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How did the dragons not see the Iron Fleet? And I don't buy that massive honkin' ballistas could be aimed or reloaded that quickly or that they're that accurate or that each missile would take out a good chunk of a ship.

I know that they need to even up the odds, but that ain't the way.

Loved Missandei's final word. I had her pegged as a double-agent in the early seasons. Thought for sure Tyrion was gonna get pincushioned for a minute there.

Ghost survived the battle of Winterfell, minus most of an ear, and Jon's dragon survived. And poof, they're both out again. Shit happens, I guess.

Liked seeing Brienne drunk and happy. Didn't much like seeing her heartbroken, especially over Jaime. But hopefully, Jaime's going to butcher his sister to balance out some of the shit he's done for her.

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  #64  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:10 PM
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My issue is how the hell Euron can sneak up on a fleet that has air cover in daytime on a clear day while sailing with great big, black sails.

They should never have been able to surprise the dragons.

Not to mention Euron has a real knack for finding people in the ocean. I mean, even if you know where your enemy is starting and ending and, roughly, the course they will take finding people at sea is hard. Ask the U-Boat captains in WWII.

Not to mention all Daenerys had to do was fly Drogon behind Euron's ships and nuke them. Their forward firing crossbows could not fire backwards.

I get it is TV and does not need to be hyper-accurate but freaking Euron is Johnny-on-the-spot over and over and over. It strains credulity even for TV.
Yeah....but at least KL is real close to Dragonstone. when he appeared behind Cersei...I was like WTF, but then I remembered how close it is.

...and there is no armor that can stop a ballista like that. Im gonna guess Tyrion tries to lead a sneak attack through his secret entrances to take out the ballista....either Jaime or Varys will betray him. Assuming Tyrion doesnt betray Dany.

Like Tyrion said, at some point you have to pick a side and stick with it. Whats Varys' great plan??? How's that worked out so far Varys??


Looks like our bittersweet ending is either Jon sitting on a lonely throne he doesn't want or Dany sitting on a throne surrounded by people who don't trust her, and the only way she can keep them in line is through fear.

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  #65  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:11 PM
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At that point, however, Viserys, who is a total idiot and would make an even worse king than Robert, is still the Targaryen heir. It's even more obscure why Varys would be plotting a Targaryen restoration.
Not a big reach to think Varys would end up getting himself killed. Plus they could have asked Jorah to do it. Basically Littlefinger's proposition to Ned re: Joffrey. Lets see how it goes, and if he turns out to be a shit we kill him and advise the younger sibling.
  #66  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:14 PM
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Jon is in D&D terms "Lawful Stupid", though I do think he would have kept quiet had he not been confronted by Sansa and Arya.
I am not sure where I picked this up...here or somewhere else...but there seems to be a thing called "Stark Stupid".

Jon and Sansa and what not are not stupid people but their Stark upbringing means they do stupid, avoidable shit in the name of being righteous.

Like Sansa antagonizing Daenerys right before the battle with the Night King. Maybe that could have waited 24 hours. Turns out it did not matter but it might have.

Or Jon telling Daenerys he really has a better claim to the throne right before the big battle (not in those words but that is what she heard). Again, wait 24 hours. You still have your honor intact but picked a better moment. If either or both died it is a moot point. If they both live the conversation is likely to go better when you are both on the high from winning a tough battle.

So, so many times with Robb and even back to Ned in season one.

Tyrion even chastises Jon for it at the end of season seven telling him he really needs to learn when to lie and Jon pushes back.

Stark Stupid.
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  #67  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:22 PM
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I was half-expecting Bronn and his crossbow to be hiding nearby to sniper Cersei while she stood all regal and exposed atop the wall.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:23 PM
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God, that was excruciating. The pacing obviously. But so many moments when I stomped away, e.g. "a flying dragon wouldn't notice a blue water navy!?"

But really the first half: endless endless dialog in Winterfell. Four episodes stuck there, can we please move this along?
  #69  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:23 PM
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Bit tough to demand someone else live a lie, IMO. Dude just learns a massive secret about his lineage and demanding he doesn't tell anyone else is asking for trouble. Seems completely unrealistic to indicate someone just keep their mouth shut about something that big.

Now if Dany and Jon come out with it to their trusted advisers and Jon swears his loyalty to Dany, then you may have scheming, but a lot of it would be nipped in the bud - as a lot of this convo between Tyrion and Varys seems to be them thinking Dany doesn't know this information.
Tyrion says that 8 people know.

Sam, Bran, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, and Varys are only seven. They know that Dany knows.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:25 PM
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Bah. There will be no big battle. They already set that up burning King's Landing is a bad idea. And while I appreciate the tension, it's too late for Dany to be fighting the Starks. That won't happen.

Jamie dies killing Cirsei, KL surrenders, both Jon and Dany forsake the iron throne, "breaking the wheel" and start up some type of democracy. A Snowflake falls in KL, timejump after winter, and everybody is living happy ever after, with Brienne looking after her son little Jamie.

Any idea of anything but happy endings and fan service went out the window last episode and was further cemented this one.

These guys are auditioning for Star Wars, no way this ends up with an effed up dark ending that most of the audience doesn't want to see.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-05-2019 at 10:30 PM.
  #71  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:28 PM
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Not a big reach to think Varys would end up getting himself killed. Plus they could have asked Jorah to do it.
I agree in retrospect we're supposed to understand that Varys meant the assassination plot to fail. But its failure was a pretty dicey proposition. How did Varys know that Jorah had become so smitten by Danaerys that he would decide to protect her rather than just be on his merry way once he received his pardon? How did he know that Jorah would arrive just in time to prevent Danaerys from being poisoned? If Jorah had decided to go off to take a leak at an inopportune time, she would have been dead. The whole thing depended on Varys being able to predict everyone's actions and locations perfectly from a thousand miles away.
  #72  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:32 PM
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My issue is how the hell Euron can sneak up on a fleet that has air cover in daytime on a clear day while sailing with great big, black sails.
Its not really hard to imagine, Dany's fleet did not have a whole lot of choice in where they were going to approach KL

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They should never have been able to surprise the dragons.
Famous last words, we really dont know if the dragons actually seen the ships and said ,meh. It was up to Dany to see them and target prioritize.

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Not to mention Euron has a real knack for finding people in the ocean. I mean, even if you know where your enemy is starting and ending and, roughly, the course they will take finding people at sea is hard. Ask the U-Boat captains in WWII.
Again, Euron is an asshole but he is a professional asshole. Dude did his job

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Not to mention all Daenerys had to do was fly Drogon behind Euron's ships and nuke them. Their forward firing crossbows could not fire backwards.
She has to understand they are a threat, at best she is playing General and now she runs into professionals that are not going to be afraid of a bunch of lizards. She lost one Dragon, she is not going to lose both. That at least she did correctly.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:33 PM
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Bah. There will be no big battle. They already set that up burning King's Landing is a bad idea. And while I appreciate the tension, it's too late for Dany to be fighting the Starks. That won't happen.

Jamie dies killing Cirsei, KL surrenders, both Jon and Dany forsake the iron throne, "breaking the wheel" and start up some type of democracy. A Snowflake falls in KL, timejump after winter, and everybody is living happy ever after, with Brienne looking after her son little Jamie.

Any idea of anything but happy endings and fan service went out the window last episode and was further cemented this one.

These guys are auditioning for Star Wars, no way this ends up with an effed up dark ending that most of the audience doesn't want to see.
We'll see. I don't think it'll be happy. Dany either dies or rules as a tyrant. If the latter, then Jon is dead too.
  #74  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:36 PM
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Bah. There will be no big battle. They already set that up burning King's Landing is a bad idea.
I dunno...Dany had been counseled to not nuke King's Landing and she seemed to only be just barely convinced of that till Cersei beheaded Missandei and we see Dany strutting off seemingly filled with resolve and really pissed off (not to mention another dragon, which she considers her children, died due to Cersei).

Dany does not seem keen on being "nice" anymore and she has been less and less willing to be swayed by her advisors.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-05-2019 at 10:39 PM.
  #75  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:37 PM
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Arya’s best shot at Cersei would be to go after Qyburn first and use his face to sneak past the Mountain and get close to her.
And I still think dragonglass-shrapnel/wildfire molotov cocktails should have been a thing.
  #76  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:37 PM
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Loved the episode except for one thing. The Iron Fleet is deus ex leveling the playing field. Has nobody ever heard of scouting or anything?

So do we think Dany will burn the city and then Jon will kill her, saving the realm from the Mad Queen? Jon as a ruler wouldn't be any better. He'd be a far weaker king that Robert was. More interested in governing well, but even dumber and easier to manipulate.
It's as simple as Euron is the only guy in the world who knows how to fight a naval war, or at least is head and shoulders above everyone else. With Theon's sister away, all ships are to Dany is transportation.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:38 PM
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Tyrion says that 8 people know.

Sam, Bran, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, and Varys are only seven. They know that Dany knows.
Tyrion knows about it from Sansa, and he told Varys. So Jon (or possibly Bran) must have told Sansa that Dany knows, and she told that to Tryion.

Sansa was being Stark Stupid when she confronted Dany before the battle, but in telling Tyrion she was not. Instead of standing by her promise to Jon regardless of her self interest, which is what a Stark would do, she was being devious in order to undermine Danaerys to her advisors. It remains to be seen whether this is stupid or not, but for a change it was not Stark Stupid.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:38 PM
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We'll see. I don't think it'll be happy. Dany either dies or rules as a tyrant. If the latter, then Jon is dead too.
Really? Then why are only the secondary characters dying and the main ones are all miraculously surviving?
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:38 PM
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To be fair, "hit with the Stupid Stick" is a common cause of death in many a story, it is not unique to this one.

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How could she not see the boats while flying that high anyway??
She was not really looking carefully, like LHOD mentioned, or "Ardennes forest" type failure of imagination where they did not expect such a force to come from that direction. But really, dragons or no dragons, Euron-the-Always-There or no Euron, ballistae or pelted with fish, the apparent expectation that they'd just sail in and land unopposed is just daft to begin with.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-05-2019 at 10:40 PM.
  #80  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:40 PM
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If dragons were that easy to take down the Targaryens would have ruled jack and shit, and jack is out of town.
The world has had hundreds of years to think about dragons and Dany is a rookie at actually commanding them. I'm sure her ancestors would have done exactly as some have advised, circle around and take their rear. But she's not a thinker. She's passionate and she behaved exactly as someone pissed off would, and she would have died along with her dragon on that frontal attack if she hadn't come to her senses.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:41 PM
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Bah. There will be no big battle. They already set that up burning King's Landing is a bad idea. And while I appreciate the tension, it's too late for Dany to be fighting the Starks. That won't happen.

Jamie dies killing Cirsei, KL surrenders, both Jon and Dany forsake the iron throne, "breaking the wheel" and start up some type of democracy. A Snowflake falls in KL, timejump after winter, and everybody is living happy ever after, with Brienne looking after her son little Jamie.

Any idea of anything but happy endings and fan service went out the window last episode and was further cemented this one.

These guys are auditioning for Star Wars, no way this ends up with an effed up dark ending that most of the audience doesn't want to see.
"If you think this has a happy ending....you haven't been paying attention."
  #82  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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Tyrion says that 8 people know.

Sam, Bran, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, and Varys are only seven. They know that Dany knows.
Which makes it even sillier not to explore the marriage idea further by Varys. I mean he just jumps to knock her off. These are supposed to be best schemers in the show, right?
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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Once Grey Worm and Missandei started planning to buy a beach condo in Narth in episode two, I knew one of them (but not both) was a goner. It just took one more episode than I expected.
  #84  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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Its not really hard to imagine, Dany's fleet did not have a whole lot of choice in where they were going to approach KL
Ocean is still a big place. WWII German U-boats knew where shipping originated and where it was to arrive and still had a hard time finding that shipping (they did, of course, but it was a lot harder than you might think). But TV so they get a pass on reality to some extent.

Thing is, Euron is near mystical in his ability to intercept ships and they never seem able to see him coming. I mean, if he can intercept so well then presumably he can see them and if he can see them then they can see him. And in this case, since they had air cover, the idea Euron could sneak up on them, in daylight, under clear skies, is beyond ridiculous.

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Famous last words, we really dont know if the dragons actually seen the ships and said ,meh. It was up to Dany to see them and target prioritize.
Dany was flying on Drogon. Also, we are told dragons are very intelligent. They are not mindless drones circling the fleet.
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  #85  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:46 PM
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Really? Then why are only the secondary characters dying and the main ones are all miraculously surviving?
You do realize this isn't the last episode?
  #86  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:46 PM
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Really? Then why are only the secondary characters dying and the main ones are all miraculously surviving?
Beeeecaussse this is drama and not a random RPG encounter?

"Roll to see who dies guys."...oops sorry Dany.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:47 PM
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Thing is, Euron is near mystical in his ability to intercept ships and they never seem able to see him coming.
To be fair, Theon was able to sneak onto one of his ships in the middle of his fleet and rescue Yara, his most valuable captive, so he's not infallible.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:49 PM
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I agree in retrospect we're supposed to understand that Varys meant the assassination plot to fail. But its failure was a pretty dicey proposition. How did Varys know that Jorah had become so smitten by Danaerys that he would decide to protect her rather than just be on his merry way once he received his pardon? How did he know that Jorah would arrive just in time to prevent Danaerys from being poisoned? If Jorah had decided to go off to take a leak at an inopportune time, she would have been dead. The whole thing depended on Varys being able to predict everyone's actions and locations perfectly from a thousand miles away.
Sorry, but this kind of thing, and Euron's ability to be wherever he needs to be, has to be forgiven. Screenwriters are creative people, but they have to write about people who are not them and whose experience they cannot possibly fully understand. They cannot write geniuses, except for geniuses to have brilliant plans that always work. Varys is portrayed as the best schemer in Westeros. Euron is the greatest naval mind in Westeros. It's really difficult to get their shit to work without just making it work because they are geniuses at what they do best.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:49 PM
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The ballistas did more damage to those ships than actual cannons would have. Holy moly those are some magic arrows.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:50 PM
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To be fair, Theon was able to sneak onto one of his ships in the middle of his fleet and rescue Yara, his most valuable captive, so he's not infallible.
Yes, the only people who really understand war on the seas are the Greyjoys, so it would make sense that they would totally dominate everyone else tactically and only be a threat to each other.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:51 PM
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To be fair, Theon was able to sneak onto one of his ships in the middle of his fleet and rescue Yara, his most valuable captive, so he's not infallible.
Thats because he activated the plot invisibility spell.

BTW where is the Theon Sister? Why wasnt she and her army going with them to the island??
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:52 PM
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Once Grey Worm and Missandei started planning to buy a beach condo in Narth in episode two, I knew one of them (but not both) was a goner. It just took one more episode than I expected.
Yeah. I have a group that comes over to watch and that scene had pretty much everyone blurting out that one or the other (or both) are dead.

I'm just not really getting why Cersei & Co. got Missandei? I mean, Missandei is ultimately just a functionary. A translator. Did Cersei somehow know Missandei is important to Daenerys?
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:52 PM
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"If you think this has a happy ending....you haven't been paying attention."
All that got shot to hell when they ran out of source material. IMO.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:57 PM
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Yes, the only people who really understand war on the seas are the Greyjoys, so it would make sense that they would totally dominate everyone else tactically and only be a threat to each other.
Stannis destroyed the Greyjoy fleet when they rebelled against Robert. The Reach, the Stormlands, and the Crownlands all have a ton of prime harbors. THere's no reason the Greyjoys, in canon or in meta analysis, would dominate everyone so easily. It's just for storytelling purposes.

Which is why last season was so disappointing and this season isn't anything great.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:58 PM
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Yes, the only people who really understand war on the seas are the Greyjoys, so it would make sense that they would totally dominate everyone else tactically and only be a threat to each other.
A) They may be the best at fighting in the open sea but that doesn't mean ships cannot see them before they are in the range of ballistas (maybe 500 yards on a good day).

B) Dany & co. have air support. Something no one else has. A HUGE advantage.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:00 PM
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All that got shot to hell when they ran out of source material. IMO.


Edit: ooops forgot books dont exist.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 05-05-2019 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:04 PM
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You do realize this isn't the last episode?
I do. There are two left, and the preview for the next episode doesn't look any more eventful than this one.

That leaves one episode for a main character bloodbath? I don't think so. Even Tyrion didn't die and he should have looked like this.

https://giphy.com/gifs/americangods-...cIb6MUmPXS0QCY

IMO if your last name isn't Lannister and you're a main character, you're probably pretty safe.

King's Landing is not gonna burn, but I bet Euron and his boats do.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-05-2019 at 11:06 PM.
  #98  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:16 PM
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As far as I can tell those ballistas don’t have night vision sights on them. What she should do is wait until nightfall then hit random towers with sneak dragon attacks out of the darkness. But that won’t happen
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:22 PM
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Forgot to mention the "Mouth of Sauron scene homage"....at least the initial shot.
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:23 PM
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Even without night vision, shooting at muzzle flashes is not a bad way to take out people shooting at you. A dragon letting loose will take out one ballista but all the others will fire in that direction. Since Dany usually does stupid things, don't be surprised if she loses her last dragon with exactly this idea.
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