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  #101  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:30 PM
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I thought it was fucking hilarious how Jamie and Brienne were talking about the fire and level of heat in their room, it was totally the equivalent of an old married couple arguing about the thermostat.
  #102  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Yeah. I have a group that comes over to watch and that scene had pretty much everyone blurting out that one or the other (or both) are dead.
If both were killed, it would be less poignant. Actually, I expected it would be Grey Worm last episode. But having it be Missandei is more shocking because she's a non-combatant and one of the few nice people on the show.

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I'm just not really getting why Cersei & Co. got Missandei? I mean, Missandei is ultimately just a functionary. A translator. Did Cersei somehow know Missandei is important to Daenerys?
AFAIK, Cersei only ever saw Missandei at the meeting at the Dragon Pit, and Missandei sat in the back row and had no lines. But maybe she knows her importance through spies.
  #103  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:40 PM
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I thought it was the best episode this season -- exciting and unpredictable. It helped that I could see everything that was happening.
  #104  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:45 PM
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AFAIK, Cersei only ever saw Missandei at the meeting at the Dragon Pit, and Missandei sat in the back row and had no lines. But maybe she knows her importance through spies.
Yeah.

My problem with this is if you simply flipped it around.

If Daenerys captured a translator of Cersei's and threatened that person Cersei really would not give a shit. So it is unlikely Cersei would somehow think Missandei is important and worth a moment's notice.

But yeah...maybe spies told her that Missandei was a trusted advisor and confidant of the queen. I can buy that.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 05-05-2019 at 11:46 PM.
  #105  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:46 PM
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Even without night vision, shooting at muzzle flashes is not a bad way to take out people shooting at you. A dragon letting loose will take out one ballista but all the others will fire in that direction. Since Dany usually does stupid things, don't be surprised if she loses her last dragon with exactly this idea.
A dragon isnít someone stationary shooting at you. A dragon will be out into the darkness before any could could be aimed where it used to be. Of course it could just sit there and wait to be shot but why would it?
  #106  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:54 PM
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Of course it could just sit there and wait to be shot but why would it?
So the odds can be evened for dramatic purposes.
  #107  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:09 AM
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I thought it was fucking hilarious how Jamie and Brienne were talking about the fire and level of heat in their room, it was totally the equivalent of an old married couple arguing about the thermostat.
That wasn't my read at all. Jaime's a Nelly fan:
It's gettin' hot in herre (so hot), so take off all your clothes
I am, gettin' so hot, I wanna take my clothes off
  #108  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:18 AM
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Really wanted Tormund to have forgotten something and ridden back to Winterfell just in time to comfort Brienne after Jaime left her.

I was, however, cheering at the next virgin on the show to finally get laid, in a nice way - done right, by a dude she likes.

Not happy about Bronn turning up like he did, suddenly being a huge asshole. He was my favorite side character in the earlier seasons - now all of a sudden he's a charmless dick.
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  #109  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:28 AM
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A dragon isnít someone stationary shooting at you. A dragon will be out into the darkness before any could could be aimed where it used to be. Of course it could just sit there and wait to be shot but why would it?
Because the dragons tend to hover there and cut loose with flame for like 30 seconds rather than fire and flee.
  #110  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:29 AM
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Really wanted Tormund to have forgotten something and ridden back to Winterfell just in time to comfort Brienne after Jaime left her.

I was, however, cheering at the next virgin on the show to finally get laid, in a nice way - done right, by a dude she likes.

Not happy about Bronn turning up like he did, suddenly being a huge asshole. He was my favorite side character in the earlier seasons - now all of a sudden he's a charmless dick.
I didn't like it, but it is consistent with his character's motivations throughout the show. I liked Jamie deciding to rush back to Cersei even less. But it is also who he is. Jamie would be a genuinely good person if not for Cersei's malevolent influence.
  #111  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:36 AM
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Not happy about Bronn turning up like he did, suddenly being a huge asshole. He was my favorite side character in the earlier seasons - now all of a sudden he's a charmless dick.
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I didn't like it, but it is consistent with his character's motivations throughout the show.
Bronn was always a mercenary dick. We just liked him because his interests happened to run in the same direction as other characters whose side we were on, at least for the moment. At least he gave the Lannister boys a chance to buy their lives.
  #112  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:45 AM
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I didn't like it, but it is consistent with his character's motivations throughout the show. I liked Jamie deciding to rush back to Cersei even less. But it is also who he is. Jamie would be a genuinely good person if not for Cersei's malevolent influence.
Yup....and he has a "Lestat Complex" too. "Whoaaaa is mee Im a monster and watch me prove it."
  #113  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:50 AM
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IMHO Arya could definitely get in the Red Keep, and I hope we see her do so.
She does know a 'back entrance'. Way back in Season 1, she go lost in the catacombs after overhearing the conversation between Varys and Iliyrio, only to finally make her way out of what looked to be a sewer outside the city.

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I didn't like it, but it is consistent with his character's motivations throughout the show. I liked Jamie deciding to rush back to Cersei even less. But it is also who he is. Jamie would be a genuinely good person if not for Cersei's malevolent influence.
I don't think he's running back to her. He makes the decision to leave after finding out that Cersei has killed one of the dragons and captured Missandei; he's afraid she might win, and wants to prevent that.. He's finally come to grips with the fact that both he and her sister are 'bad people', and he's going to try to see that they both pay for their sins.
  #114  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:55 AM
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Bronn was always a mercenary dick. We just liked him because his interests happened to run in the same direction as other characters whose side we were on, at least for the moment. At least he gave the Lannister boys a chance to buy their lives.
Also...when he showed up, he seemed to be in a reasonable mood and Jaime and Tyrion QUICKLY proved his point about why he was so pissed. Lack of respect and not believing him. "One more word from you..." "Tyrion: "Blah blah blah" Jaime: "You wouldn't..." KATHANG.

If Jaime had just shut up, and Tyrion more concilatory the convo could have gone differently. Riverrun?? The point that should have been made is that Cersei will never give Bronn Riverrun.

Episode 6, Scene 34, INT Red Keep, Throne Room. Dany sits on the throne, downcast. Ash falls from a hole in the ceiling. A sullen crowd watches her coronation while Dothraki and Unsullied keep the peace...

BRONN enters with crossbow: "OI. Dragon queen!! I was told I could have Highgarden!. You know. Big castle! 400 miles west of here! I need the keys."
  #115  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:06 AM
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I didn't like it, but it is consistent with his character's motivations throughout the show. I liked Jamie deciding to rush back to Cersei even less. But it is also who he is. Jamie would be a genuinely good person if not for Cersei's malevolent influence.
I think that Jaime needed to get out of there before he changed his mind, and said those things to Brienne to make her hate him and therefore easier for him to go. I don't think he wants to save Cersei. He didn't make the decision to go until Bronn told him Cersei wanted him dead and then heard that Cersei was winning. He thought she would die in the war but then realized that might not happen. So he has to make sure it does. He can't be the good person Brienne believes he is until he settles that score.

Suburban Plankton beat me to it.

Last edited by aurora maire; 05-06-2019 at 01:09 AM. Reason: I type too slow
  #116  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:15 AM
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I finally figured out where I've felt this feeling of "I'm numb. And I've cried my last tear. And from here on out every frame is just a march of inevitability. No one left has any choice in what they do." before.

The Dark Tower books.

DnD cleverly sent away or killed off every single character that would have really upset me to see them die. And the few still around that would have upset me? Set them on a one-way mission. (Hound and Arya). So now I'm left with an ever-shrinking crew who are just seeing out the motions. Tyrion has a tiny bit of agency left, but I at this point don't care much about him. Varys, Dany, Grey Worm, Jaime (Though we don't quite know what his suicide mission is) Jon are all locked into revenge and duty. We miggght see Brienne and Pod on their own doomed mission.

Doubt we see Sansa or Bran actually affect the outcome of the show again.

But yeah. I'm numb and felt the same way in the Dark Tower books when the **-*** was broken and ******** left.
  #117  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:43 AM
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Overall, I liked this episode after a being disappointed in last episode. I wondered if they were going to have Dany go the Mad Queen route - they had obviously (and generally skillfully) been setting it up for a while now, but it seemed like they were going so risk-averse and boring in their storytelling I thought they might go in a different direction. They still may. Maybe Dany will die in her attack on King's Landing, keeping characters from having to make difficult decisions about it. But the way she threatened Jon was a good turn and a justified character moment. In general, having the northmen who all love Jon doting on him and ignoring her, on the day she should've been the great big savior, was a good way to set up that conflict. Well done.

Tyrion making it out of this episode alive is implausible. Cersei left Tyrion alive the last time they met because she thought she could manipulate him, which she did. Additionally, a full strength Dothraki/Unsullied/Dragon army was at her doors, and antagonizing them by killing Tyrion is a losing move. So she didn't.

But this time those constraints aren't in place. Cersei is not trying to avoid conflict - she is deliberately egging on Dany by killing Missandei. They're in the end stages of their war, so the reputation lost for potentially killing an unarmed man approaching your gates is probably not a big deal to her. And Dany's armies are depleted, and it's not at all clear that Cersei can't beat them conventionally. Cersei simply should've ordered Tyrion filled up like a pincushion. Possibly right after she kills Missandei and he's just standing there shocked. So that she could double her provocative move.

The only reason for her not to do this is that Tyrion is a fan favorite character.

Also, I realize that this is just the way that they wanted to shoot it cinematographically, and it's a cool shot, but Dany and her advisors, and her small personal guard of unsullied, were way too close to the walls. It seemed like they were in borderline arrow range, but even if they weren't, they were certainly in balllista range. If Cersei is trying to provoke a fight anyway, it makes sense just to take a crack at ending the dragon queen right then and there. So I'm going to have to assume that the distances Dany would've waited outside the walls was further, but it looked cooler to shoot it as if it were closer. Also, the 20,000 Golden Company should've simply rode her and her small force of unsullied down. I realize that too was probably a budget limitation - they didn't want to portray her whole army standing there with her. But all together, it rubbed me the wrong way, since it made it seem as though the war was Cersei's to win right there, she just had to take it.

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I was, however, cheering at the next virgin on the show to finally get laid, in a nice way - done right, by a dude she likes.
At first I thought that this doesn't feel right. The climax of Jamie and Brienne's relationship was the knighting seen. There hasn't been an undercurrent of sexual tension between them... there was... morality and honor tension. Her vouching for him, and him knighting her was the perfect completion of their arc. Having them have sex seemed unnecessary and a little off, tone wise.

On the other hand, Jamie betrayed his sister to honor his word to fight up North. He can't go back to her, and he's not a lord or an important man up North, so it may make sense that he might let go and try being with her to start a new life up there. Still, it didn't quite ring true to me. I sincerely wished Tormund had grown on Brienne. I'd rather have seen that relationship, with Brienne and Jaime's arc completing perfectly in the previous episodes. I guess they didn't have time to make it work.

They've undone Jaime's redemption before. We saw him become a better person and start to realize the evil that is Cersei and how she influenced him to be the opposite of what he wants to be, and he seemed to start to grow. But then when she sends him away - to handle the siege of Riverrun - he's right back to "I'll kill everyone here to be with Cersei again" - it didn't ring true then, and it doesn't ring true now. But I suspect now he's not going back to attempt to be with her, he's going back to attempt to kill her or otherwise resolve the war, and what he told Brienne was bs.

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Not happy about Bronn turning up like he did, suddenly being a huge asshole. He was my favorite side character in the earlier seasons - now all of a sudden he's a charmless dick.
That was my initial reaction too. Bronn was too unfriendly to them. But I'm not sure the scene is actually wrong. Bronn has always been a heartless mercenary. We like the guy, because he's worked for "our guys" - but do you remember when Tyrion once asked him if he would murder an infant - rip it right from its mothers arms without question and murder it right then - he answered "without question? No. I'd ask how much"

Bronn was promised a castle - he almost married the dimwitted girl and murdered her older sister - when Jamie pulled him out of that, with the promise of a bigger reward. Later, Jaime gave him a bag of gold - which was a great reward, but not the castle he was promised - and in any case the gold was lost during the battle of the loot train. So Bronn has been working for years and risking his life for the Lannisters and has very little to show about it. And now that he's been recruited once again by a Lannister to do evil - "this fuckin family", it's plausible that he just wants to be done with them and fucking finally cash out.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-06-2019 at 01:45 AM.
  #118  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:05 AM
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I know no one cares, but I was looking over on reddit and noticed this thread. Essentially, this guy was pissed that the cute little dragon was shot and killed, and now the guy wants Dany to kill everyone. And pretty much everyone else agrees with him.

This is a good example of my claims that the GoT audience has swelled up to be filled with unsophisticated viewers.

Dany's dragons are not cute puppies. To a degree, we sympathize with them because they're the "children" of one our heroes in the story. But these are wild beasts that murder people. That burn people alive in horrific ways. They are weapons of war. They've been used to inflict forceful rule and tyranny on the world. They burn cities to the ground. They are the closest thing that world has to weapons of mass destruction.

So for the audience reaction to be "awww, they killed the cute little lovable puppy dragon!! I hope their mom LITERALLY BURNS EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD ALIVE" is not only a completely bizarre moral statement but a sure sign of unsophisticated viewers who can't even understand the difference between a protagonist and a hero, or that having us watch the dragons grow up doesn't mean they're not a tool of inflicting great pain and destruction. This is the audience the show has been catering more and more to in the last years as the show reached greater popularity, and this is the audience that isn't even sophisticated enough to understand that the quality of writing has dropped in recent seasons.
  #119  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:50 AM
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Maybe because of the light issue last week, I was stricken by how excellent the lighting was during the first part of the episode (scenes shot with candle light).

I was a bit hit by the opening scene. I found the scene were the main characters are saying their good byes to their fallen companions uncomfortably realistic, both the corpses and the attitude of the mourners. Reminded me too much of actual funerals.

I had difficulties buying the idea of Jaime falling in love with Brienne. And even more buying the idea that then he would then have a change of heart and abandon her to side with Cersei (I loved him mentioning he strangled his cousin. I felt I was the only one still remembering this scene, that I found at the time even worst than throwing Bran out of the window, and that played a good part in my refusal to see Jaime as redeemed).

I noted with interest that Arya stated that she didn't intend to come back from King's Landing. There's still a hope that the resolution of her story will be interesting.

The dragon killing scene was surprising, hence good but the setting absurd, as everybody already pointed out. And as many pointed out too, I failed to see why Missandei would be considered a valuable hostage. I also failed to see why they executed this hostage, in fact.

The Jon/Danaerys thing is interesting, even though it seems very telegraphed, and the whole Stark family, including those who really shouldn't give a shit like Arya and Bran united in their opposition to Danaerys didn't seem to fit. Similarly, they kept explaining how much Sansa has grown and changed but this evolution frankly hasn't been shown properly during the previous seasons, and as a result it feels extremely artificial.

I hope for the best wrt how they'll resolve this (although I don't trust the show writers anymore to do something surprising and original). At this point, we're told that Dany is unfit to rule and Jon unwilling to. So, an option would be that both would perish (and Gendry, now legitimized, become king?). And if one, or both, do perish, how it happens and in particular who will kill them could be interesting.

A last thing that seemed absurd to me was the parley scene, where they seemed to all be within range of the ballistas (including the dragon) and possibly the archers and on top of it had very little soldiers with them. In all logic, Cersei should have tried to kill them all right there and then.



Finally, I had read about the leak of this week's episode, and specifically that it showed a main character's death. This had the fortunate effect of keeping me on the edge of my seat. My first thought, weirdly, was that Jon could suddenly die (having been resurrected and fulfilled his purpose, like Thoros and Melisandre). Then that Dany would have him killed. Then I half expected her to be killed along with her dragon, then to be assassinated by Varys, then to see Tyrion being killed during the parley (this even before the scene where he approached the gates and the archers aimed at him. In fact, once this happened, weirdly, it convinced me that he wouldn't die. Maybe too much of a trope.). I must say that his expectation of seeing someone important die during this episode made it vastly more enjoyable.
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Last edited by clairobscur; 05-06-2019 at 02:53 AM.
  #120  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:56 AM
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I know no one cares, but I was looking over on reddit and noticed this thread. Essentially, this guy was pissed that the cute little dragon was shot and killed, and now the guy wants Dany to kill everyone. And pretty much everyone else agrees with him.
I wouldn't be surprised by this reaction if it had been Ghost being killed, but the dragons are neither cute nor lovable. I'm not convinced, however, that a really significant part of the watchers really care that much about it.

I found some of reactions in the thread you linked to quite sick, however. How can you hate a movie character so much that you devise horrific ways in which he should die?
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  #121  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:00 AM
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Let's get this out of the way first:

The ballista would never, ever be that effective against a moving target. Try hitting an airplane with one. Good luck. Those might as well be magical machine-ballistas with wildfire exploding tips by the level of destruction they wreaked on a largish ship. So that's kind of a deux ex machina as far as I'm concerned. Euron's ships might as well have a magical invisibility cloak as well. A fleet that size would be obviously visible from dragon cruising altitude, long before the dragons were anywhere near in range.

Anyway, I liked the episode. Lots of great character moments at Winterfell, a believable way in which the Aegon Targaryan thing is being handled, etc. And I especially like how they've been slow-walking the downfall of Daeneris. Losing Ser Jorah was a huge blow, because he helped act as her conscience, and she trusted him more than she now trusts Tyrion, which is pretty much not at all.

So she has had all her support taken away from her, including the gentle influence of Missendei. She's also lost two of her three dragons, and may be feeling that desperate measures are needed. She's feeling everything she believed in and fought for slipping away from her, and she has been cut off from her entire support system. That makes her very dangerous. The murder of Missandei in front of her may have just pushed her over into mad queen territory.

I don't see how she and Jon Snow can live happily ever after. There's only one way they both live, and that's if she gives Jon the north and he becomes king in the north, which now extends a lot further north, and she rules the rest of Westeros. Short of that, one of them has got to go. My money is on Daeneris, or perhaps both.

I thought it was very interesting that Gendry was announced to the world as a Baratheon and made a Lord. I think this really opens the door to a situation where there is a bloodbath at the end, and ultimately Gendry Baratheon takes the throne. Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. But the stage is certainly set, with a new Baratheon on the scene and out of the way while everyone else goes to war.

I liked the Arya/Gendry scene. It was very believable. He's treating her like a lady, and she just wanted to get laid before going off to do some very dark shit. Which is what she's doing again. It's always good to see the Arya/Hound show. My money is on an upcoming scene where they go into the Red Keep together with Arya showing him the way through the sewers. They team up to go after Cersei and the Mountain, because after all they will be together.

The twist could be that they run into someone on the way and kill him, and Arya uses that face to get close to Cersei. And I do think Jamie is going back to Cersei. In this story he is Achilles and she is his heel. It's his fatal flaw that will get him killed.

I could imagine a scene like this: Arya sneaks around a corner and runs into Jamie. Jamie looks at her and starts to draw his sword... Cut to Cersei somewhere, and Jamie walks in and says, "You'll never believe who I just ran into." He walks up to Cersei and she says "Who?" And Jamie pulls off his face and says, "Arya Stark." And then Arya proceeds to kill Cersei in a very slow, painful way as King's Landing burns around them.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 05-06-2019 at 03:02 AM.
  #122  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:06 AM
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Gendry taking the throne seems like it'd be weird and fanservicey to me. I wouldn't like it at all. Nor do I think the Lords of Westeros will give a shit about some legitimized Baratheon bastard - it's not like any of them even give a shit about Robert at this point. It would be too random and unearned for Gendry to end up on top. I'm rooting for Ser Pounce.
  #123  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:07 AM
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Overall, I liked this episode after a being disappointed in last episode. I wondered if they were going to have Dany go the Mad Queen route - they had obviously (and generally skillfully) been setting it up for a while now,.
I don't think it was skillful. There has been many scenes along the years hinting at Dany being potentially a murderous tyran, but then they were erased by depicting her as such a good person. I don't really know what was wrong with their approach, because showing that she could be both an arrogant heartless and potentially dangerous tyran, and a ruler very concerned with a well being of the people should be the proper way of handling this, but it didn't work for me.


By the way, the opening scene was the first time in a long while where we've seen either Dany or Arya being emotional.
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  #124  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:15 AM
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Gendry taking the throne seems like it'd be weird and fanservicey to me.
Fan service, not really, because even though Gendry is liked, Jon and Dany have a much larger fan following. This outcome really wouldn't be very popular.

However, I wouldn't really like it either. It's just that if both Danaerys and Jon die, who else could take the throne, on what basis, and even with the support of whom?
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  #125  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:25 AM
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I know no one cares, but I was looking over on reddit and noticed this thread. Essentially, this guy was pissed that the cute little dragon was shot and killed, and now the guy wants Dany to kill everyone. And pretty much everyone else agrees with him.

This is a good example of my claims that the GoT audience has swelled up to be filled with unsophisticated viewers.

Dany's dragons are not cute puppies. To a degree, we sympathize with them because they're the "children" of one our heroes in the story. But these are wild beasts that murder people. That burn people alive in horrific ways. They are weapons of war. They've been used to inflict forceful rule and tyranny on the world. They burn cities to the ground. They are the closest thing that world has to weapons of mass destruction.

So for the audience reaction to be "awww, they killed the cute little lovable puppy dragon!! I hope their mom LITERALLY BURNS EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD ALIVE" is not only a completely bizarre moral statement but a sure sign of unsophisticated viewers who can't even understand the difference between a protagonist and a hero, or that having us watch the dragons grow up doesn't mean they're not a tool of inflicting great pain and destruction. This is the audience the show has been catering more and more to in the last years as the show reached greater popularity, and this is the audience that isn't even sophisticated enough to understand that the quality of writing has dropped in recent seasons.
I trust you wrote all that while puffing on a pipe

You're partially right in that we as an audience like Rhaegal more than Drogan cause at this point Drogan is an extention of Dany. Hence your 'weapon of war' comment.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 05-06-2019 at 03:29 AM.
  #126  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:27 AM
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So next ep we hear a dragon roar and Euron looks shocked

Wild ass theory #455: The Lord of Light resurrects Rhaegal. Remember all that talk about the Lord of Light pissing off after The Great War has ended? There's your boon Dany. Talk about your literal Deux Ex Machina.
  #127  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:31 AM
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That was my initial reaction too. Bronn was too unfriendly to them. But I'm not sure the scene is actually wrong.
It's not just that he was too unfriendly for a supposedly "nice" character (which he definitely isn't, as you point out). It's that I fail to see how this approach would get him a castle if any logic was followed.

Threatening to kill someone isn't generally going to be well received. And as soon as he leaves the room, he can be arrested and put in a dungeon, or simply murdered or executed. His attitude really doesn't make any sense to me.
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  #128  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:35 AM
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Tyrion says that 8 people know.

Sam, Bran, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, and Varys are only seven. They know that Dany knows.
Gilly knows. She was the first one to find out.
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Let's get this out of the way first:

The ballista would never, ever be that effective against a moving target. Try hitting an airplane with one. Good luck.
Rhaegon was hit by two or three. The whole bloody fleet was shooting at him, from multiple angles. Which is basically how AAA worked. Mass of shot. Dozens or even hundreds were expended.

Quote:
Those might as well be magical machine-ballistas with wildfire exploding tips by the level of destruction they wreaked on a largish ship. So that's kind of a deux ex machina as far as I'm concerned. Euron's ships might as well have a magical invisibility cloak as well. A fleet that size would be obviously visible from dragon cruising altitude, long before the dragons were anywhere near in range.
Dany needs to see and identify the enemy fleet as hostile. Not so simple. In WW2, it was not unusual for patrol a/c to miss ship formations, despite flying real close. And these are people who were activley looking and were trained and or experienced. See Battle of Capa Matapan, (when Italian A/C lost sight of the RN battle fleet, which then ripped apart Regia Marina cruisers) or the April 1942 Indian Ocean battles (when bith the RN and RAF off Sri Lanka and the Japanese Combined fleet were unable to find each other for long).
As for the anti ship operation, meh. Its a transport vessel, in a world without gunpowder. Ships of the line were oak castles, with thick hulls, no reason these ship would be.


Quote:
Anyway, I liked the episode. Lots of great character moments at Winterfell, a believable way in which the Aegon Targaryan thing is being handled, etc. And I especially like how they've been slow-walking the downfall of Daeneris. Losing Ser Jorah was a huge blow, because he helped act as her conscience, and she trusted him more than she now trusts Tyrion, which is pretty much not at all.

So she has had all her support taken away from her, including the gentle influence of Missendei. She's also lost two of her three dragons, and may be feeling that desperate measures are needed. She's feeling everything she believed in and fought for slipping away from her, and she has been cut off from her entire support system. That makes her very dangerous. The murder of Missandei in front of her may have just pushed her over into mad queen territory.
She has alwasy had the Targy sadistic streak in her. The way she killed that witch season 1 or locked that ladyservant and the fat black guy in the locker in season 2. Or fed the good masters to the dragons.
She usually attacks unsymphatetic people, but its blinded us to her traits. Niow that she is under pressure, coming out. Expect Kings Lanidng to burn.
Quote:
I don't see how she and Jon Snow can live happily ever after. There's only one way they both live, and that's if she gives Jon the north and he becomes king in the north, which now extends a lot further north, and she rules the rest of Westeros. Short of that, one of them has got to go. My money is on Daeneris, or perhaps both.
Oh, that alliance is over.

Quote:
I thought it was very interesting that Gendry was announced to the world as a Baratheon and made a Lord. I think this really opens the door to a situation where there is a bloodbath at the end, and ultimately Gendry Baratheon takes the throne. Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. But the stage is certainly set, with a new Baratheon on the scene and out of the way while everyone else goes to war.
I have money on him being Cercei's dead son with Robert.

Quote:
I liked the Arya/Gendry scene. It was very believable. He's treating her like a lady, and she just wanted to get laid before going off to do some very dark shit. Which is what she's doing again. It's always good to see the Arya/Hound show. My money is on an upcoming scene where they go into the Red Keep together with Arya showing him the way through the sewers. They team up to go after Cersei and the Mountain, because after all they will be together.
Arya is getting annoying now.

Quote:
The twist could be that they run into someone on the way and kill him, and Arya uses that face to get close to Cersei. And I do think Jamie is going back to Cersei. In this story he is Achilles and she is his heel. It's his fatal flaw that will get him killed.

I could imagine a scene like this: Arya sneaks around a corner and runs into Jamie. Jamie looks at her and starts to draw his sword... Cut to Cersei somewhere, and Jamie walks in and says, "You'll never believe who I just ran into." He walks up to Cersei and she says "Who?" And Jamie pulls off his face and says, "Arya Stark." And then Arya proceeds to kill Cersei in a very slow, painful way as King's Landing burns around them.
That would be a great end.
  #129  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:36 AM
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I think that Jaime needed to get out of there before he changed his mind, and said those things to Brienne to make her hate him and therefore easier for him to go. I don't think he wants to save Cersei. He didn't make the decision to go until Bronn told him Cersei wanted him dead and then heard that Cersei was winning. He thought she would die in the war but then realized that might not happen. So he has to make sure it does. He can't be the good person Brienne believes he is until he settles that score.

Suburban Plankton beat me to it.
I considered this possibility, and your guess might be correct, but if it is the case, he should have told Brienne. the only reason why he wouldn't would be to surprise the viewers later, and it's too artificial for my tastes.
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  #130  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:41 AM
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Gilly knows. She was the first one to find out.

Rhaegon was hit by two or three. The whole bloody fleet was shooting at him, from multiple angles. Which is basically how AAA worked. Mass of shot. Dozens or even hundreds were expended.


Dany needs to see and identify the enemy fleet as hostile. Not so simple. In WW2, it was not unusual for patrol a/c to miss ship formations, despite flying real close. And these are people who were activley looking and were trained and or experienced. See Battle of Capa Matapan, (when Italian A/C lost sight of the RN battle fleet, which then ripped apart Regia Marina cruisers) or the April 1942 Indian Ocean battles (when bith the RN and RAF off Sri Lanka and the Japanese Combined fleet were unable to find each other for long).
As for the anti ship operation, meh. Its a transport vessel, in a world without gunpowder. Ships of the line were oak castles, with thick hulls, no reason these ship would be.



She has alwasy had the Targy sadistic streak in her. The way she killed that witch season 1 or locked that ladyservant and the fat black guy in the locker in season 2. Or fed the good masters to the dragons.
She usually attacks unsymphatetic people, but its blinded us to her traits. Niow that she is under pressure, coming out. Expect Kings Lanidng to burn.

Oh, that alliance is over.


I have money on him being Cercei's dead son with Robert.


Arya is getting annoying now.


That would be a great end.
There is 0 chance that Deux Ex Machinarya gets Cersei AND the NK. More likely Qyburn or The Mountain kills her at the last second and Qyburn pulls off her mask so he can give that Qyburn "Hmmmmmm" look.
  #131  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:47 AM
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Bit tough to demand someone else live a lie, IMO. Dude just learns a massive secret about his lineage and demanding he doesn't tell anyone else is asking for trouble. Seems completely unrealistic to indicate someone just keep their mouth shut about something that big.
We're talking about a Stark, at least by upbringing. With Ned as role-model. "You need to say you're the Targaryen heir, or the night king will win and everybody will die" "I wish I could but I promised I wouldn't. I'm sorry for the ten millions dead, but obviously I can't break my oath."
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  #132  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:16 AM
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...

At first I thought that this doesn't feel right. The climax of Jamie and Brienne's relationship was the knighting seen. There hasn't been an undercurrent of sexual tension between them... there was... morality and honor tension. Her vouching for him, and him knighting her was the perfect completion of their arc. Having them have sex seemed unnecessary and a little off, tone wise.

...
Brienne developed a crush on Jaime, after she got over her even bigger crush on Renly. She's always been the quintessential Ugly Duckling (her nickname Brienne The Beauty is a cruel mockery) so having a handsome knight so much as notice her, let alone bed her, is sorta like Brad Pitt or George Clooney calling me up for a shag.
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  #133  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:04 AM
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Ive only recently caught up and so haven't been following these threads. What does everyone think of Jaime and Brienne hooking up? I would have preferred the relationship remain platonic. I would have said brother/sister relationship but, well.....
  #134  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:59 AM
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Did anyone notice the Starbucks cup in front of Dany during the victory feast?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-...b04e275d4ca2da
  #135  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:05 AM
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I could imagine a scene like this: Arya sneaks around a corner and runs into Jamie. Jamie looks at her and starts to draw his sword... Cut to Cersei somewhere, and Jamie walks in and says, "You'll never believe who I just ran into." He walks up to Cersei and she says "Who?" And Jamie pulls off his face and says, "Arya Stark."
Almost perfect--but when the mask comes off, the line should be, "Jamie Lannister."
  #136  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:17 AM
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Did anyone notice the Starbucks cup in front of Dany during the victory feast?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-...b04e275d4ca2da
Starkbucks.
  #137  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:45 AM
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Did anyone notice the Starbucks cup in front of Dany during the victory feast?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-...b04e275d4ca2da
I'm convinced this is creative advertising. I find it hard to believe everyone missed that in filming and post production. Notice the link described the cup as a Starbucks cup not a generic coffee cup. Even the link headline is written as classic clickbait. Everyone is a winner here - Starbucks, HBO' s bank balance and numerous online sites such as HuffPo.
  #138  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:03 AM
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Rhaegon was hit by two or three. The whole bloody fleet was shooting at him, from multiple angles. Which is basically how AAA worked. Mass of shot. Dozens or even hundreds were expended.
AAA worked by shooting a bunch of exploding shells in the path of bomber formations using radar to determine range and bearing. And bombers could easily avoid flak by changing direction every minute or so because it took several minutes for the shells to reach their cruising altitude.


The show is having us believe that a battery of medieval ballista, fired from rolling and pitching ships decks, can fire bolts capable of scoring multiple hits at a moving target several thousand feet in the air. All this while remaining undetected by two dragons, because the fleet happens to be out of the camera's field of view.
  #139  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:04 AM
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The show is having us believe that a battery of medieval ballista, fired from rolling and pitching ships decks, can fire bolts capable of scoring multiple hits at a moving target several thousand feet in the air. All this while remaining undetected by two dragons, because the fleet happens to be out of the camera's field of view.
The writers are definitely moving into Walking Dead levels of stupidity.
  #140  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:25 AM
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The correct title for this episode should of course be “3 hands, no rules” https://www.vox.com/2019/5/5/1853002...rones-avengers.
Bronn was here to remind us that those who get to be in charge are those really, really good at killing lotsa people. Not the good guys. Not the best rulers. And by no means necessarily those with the “right” to rule.
  #141  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:35 AM
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A few thoughts:

I am pretty sure Jaime is going to kill Cersei and as others said he said what he said to Brienne to spare her feeling (like Tyrion with what's her face a few seasons ago).

I think the main reason Euron was able to kill Dragon R was mostly because it was already hurt and healing. Probably flying low and already weak. Drogon took shot like that first one before.

So where is Sam going? Is he going north with the Freefolk, staying at Winterfell? Their goodbye implied he was going somewhere.

I have a heard a theory that the creators kind of forgot Ghost existed and have added his stuff after the fact. This episode mad me think that might be true. The "goodbye" to Ghost was very lame from an emotional standpoint.

I feel like this is all leading to a tragic fall for Dany which is a shame because she truly, at one time, seemed the best person to rule.
  #142  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:53 AM
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We're talking about a Stark, at least by upbringing. With Ned as role-model. "You need to say you're the Targaryen heir, or the night king will win and everybody will die" "I wish I could but I promised I wouldn't. I'm sorry for the ten millions dead, but obviously I can't break my oath."
Heh. I find it ironic that Jon (who, despite being raised as a bastard in Winterfell, and disliked by Lady Catelyn) follows Ned's rigid code, while Sansa (who presumedly had nearly the same upbringing) lasts less than 24 hours to break an oath she gave by blabbing Jon's pedigree to Tyrion.
  #143  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:00 AM
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I have a heard a theory that the creators kind of forgot Ghost existed and have added his stuff after the fact. This episode mad me think that might be true. The "goodbye" to Ghost was very lame from an emotional standpoint.
I wonder why Jon didn't even give the wolf a scritch behind the ear as a goodbye.

Do wolves raised from pup-hood dislike being petted?
  #144  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:02 AM
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I may have missed something, but shouldn't Euron be suspicious that Tyrion knows Cersei is pregnant?

I was under the impression that the child is Jamie's and Cersei has been pregnant long enough for Tyrion to figure out at their previous meeting. Euron could have only knocked her up a few weeks prior, right?

And, why the hell wouldn't the dragons fly at an altitude higher than the top of the ballista projectiles' parabolic arc?
  #145  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:12 AM
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I have little doubt that Jamie is going to have something to do with Cersei's death.

I do think it's a bit much for Arya to get the kill shot on the Night King AND Cersei, even if she's "on the list". Plus I think it's, um, arguable, that Arya is the "more beautiful" woman that casts her down.

It's tricky because the case that the prophecies are true are pretty convincing, they seem conflicting because first there's a younger, more beautiful woman that casts her down (Dany? Sansa's no where near there), then her little brother strangles her (who, I think is blatantly telegraphed as Jamie).
  #146  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:15 AM
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AAA worked by shooting a bunch of exploding shells in the path of bomber formations using radar to determine range and bearing. And bombers could easily avoid flak by changing direction every minute or so because it took several minutes for the shells to reach their cruising altitude.
Pedantic Nitpick: Several minutes?? No. The German 88mm flak had a muzzle velocity of 2600 ft/sec, with an effective altitude of 25000 feet.

The American 5"/38 had a similar muzzle velocity, but a higher effective altitude.

While the shells definately slow down as they travel up-range, I don't think "minutes" of flight time is accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537
The show is having us believe that a battery of medieval ballista, fired from rolling and pitching ships decks, can fire bolts capable of scoring multiple hits at a moving target several thousand feet in the air. All this while remaining undetected by two dragons, because the fleet happens to be out of the camera's field of view.
I agree with this sentiment, though.
  #147  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:21 AM
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AAA worked by shooting a bunch of exploding shells in the path of bomber formations using radar to determine range and bearing. And bombers could easily avoid flak by changing direction every minute or so because it took several minutes for the shells to reach their cruising altitude.


The show is having us believe that a battery of medieval ballista, fired from rolling and pitching ships decks, can fire bolts capable of scoring multiple hits at a moving target several thousand feet in the air. All this while remaining undetected by two dragons, because the fleet happens to be out of the camera's field of view.
1) Errr, RADAR for guns came rather late in the day in WW2. For most of the way, RADAR gave them not much more than ďenemy coming, this height and directionĒ. Which in our case, the ships lookouts could do.

2) Drogon, **did** dodge several bolts, once he knew he was under attack. He did so by maneuvering.
Rhaegon was hit before he even knew the enemy was there. Like Viserion last season (where Drogon again dodged).

Thatís not news. Most AA and air to air kills are those who never saw it coming. People who know they are being attacked have much better odds. Which is why so much effort is placed in developing stealth, low probability of intercept RADARs, missile warning systems.

The anti-air engagement was probably the only realistic military operation in the episode.
  #148  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:30 AM
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Rhaegon was hit before he even knew the enemy was there. Like Viserion last season (where Drogon again dodged).
And this is why it was unrealistic and stupid. They would have seen the ships LONG before they were in range of the ballistas.

Last edited by manson1972; 05-06-2019 at 09:30 AM.
  #149  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:38 AM
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I'm a little miffed that Jaime cockblocked Tormound only to break Brienne's heart. What prompted him to go to KL? Hearing she had a victory? Doesn't make sense.
  #150  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:44 AM
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Yeah, Jaime's stated reason to Brienne is basically that he and Cersei deserve each other and he was going to be with her. However, he knew that Dany and the North were going down there to overthrow her. If that's his reason, he should have left immediately after the battle.

If it turns out that he's going down there to kill her, it makes sense that the news of Cersei's victory would compel him, but it doesn't mesh with what he told Brienne.

Not a great scene.
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