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  #201  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:55 PM
Dewey Finn is offline
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Something that occurred to me last night is the array of funeral pyres at the opening of the episode must have consumed most of a forest. It's almost a big "fuck you" to the Children of the Forest.
  #202  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:56 PM
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If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He'd be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of.
  #203  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:56 PM
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Trying to figure out what Dany whispered to Ser Friendzone's corpse might become as much of a parlor game as it did for the final scene of Lost in Translation.
Maybe it'll be close to the final four words of Gilmore Girls:
SPOILER:
Quote:
"Mom."
"Yeah?"
"I'm pregnant."
If that's what Dany was saying, she might have added something about naming the baby "Jorah," and left out the "Mom" stuff.
  #204  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:58 PM
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I didn't like this episode all that much, and find a lot of aspects of it puzzling.

1. The distances and times start to make very little sense, in part because so much has to happen so quickly. How long are they saying it's gonna take for Jon and the army to get to King's Landing? That's a LONG way - Wsteros is a continent, not an island. 2500-2800 kilometres, according to most estimates. Realistically, it takes three months to march an army that far, assuming consistent supply and no one trying to stop them.

2. So, uh, why did Cersei not just kill Daenerys, Tyrion, et al. when they were standing there in plain view of ballista and archer fire? We saw the ballistas blow ships apart much further away than that. Seriously, she had the war won right there. The crown was in her hand and she just didn't take it? What the fuck? If your fanwank is that Westeros has some ultra-not-to-be-broken rule about killing an envoy, why've we never heard of the importance of that rule before, especially when Cersei, the most evil person competing for the throne, can win everything by breaking it? That was an ATROCIOUS scene, one that seemed to serve no purpose except to give torture porn fans something to watch when Missandei got killed. Her own father broke a rule that actually has been mentioned before, and shrugged it off by quite reasonably pointing out that war is a bitch and anyway it probably saved lives.

Instead, she murders Missandei - a move that serves no purpose and if anything is to her disadvantage. Missandei is emotionally important to Daenerys and Grey Worm, but her murder serves no strategic benefit to Cersei and if anything just means she is short a useful hostage.

3. So how did they spell Daenerys's name on her double latte?

Donairis
Danneres
Dennis
Debbie
Dorcas

4. Seeing Brienne reduced to a blubbering mess in her housecoat over a man leaving just did not seem like a dignified scene for that character.


The parts of the episode I liked were basically all the obvious tension between the major players. There really is no resolution between the objectives of Daenerys and Sansa; Daenerys insists the North be a part of her kingdom, and Sansa insists it not, and they're only allies as long as someone more dangerous exists. It is, frankly, extremely unlikely that the other kingdoms/regions will be all that enthusiastic about Queen Daenerys I once the loathsome Cersei is gone.

Anything could happen but it seems to me we've got three major possibilities:

1. Jon dies or retreats to Winterfell or the Wall; Daenerys is Queen.
2. Daenerys dies; Jon becomes King Aegon VI.
3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms.
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  #205  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:00 PM
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Bronn is counting on them feeling bound by "A Lannister pays his debts." The Lannisters are pretty dishonorable but they do seem to feel bound by this one.
I think sometimes we forget that medieval era norms (which I know this is fantasy, but it's similar enough) are not the same as ours. Guest right and parley rights are sacrosanct (which is why the Red Wedding would have been a horrible transgression - remember when Tywin visits the Freys afterwards and while he orchestrates it, he's kind of put off by the Freys for actually doing it, and of course Cat is adamant with Robb that if he takes the salt from the Freys he'll be safe). And your word means something far more. So Jon asking for Sansa and Arya to swear and Bronn taking Tyrion at her word is considered something perfectly normal. Whereas now, it's no big deal to give someone your word and then lie.

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Right. So actually nine people know, not eight. But Tyrion has no reason to know that Gilly knows. It's more likely that Jon told Sansa that Danaerys knows than that he told her that Gilly knows too.
Remember Bran told Sansa, not Jon. And Bran is like a living encyclopedia. I wouldn't put it past Bran to tell Sansa and Arya about Gilly stumbling on it. Bran also may not know that Dany didn't want Jon to tell them. Although we don't know if Jon jumped in at all... so who really knows.
  #206  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:01 PM
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And if it's Jon?
Honestly, that would be the best for everyone. His birth precludes any future for him other than ruling or death, and he'd be a shitty ruler.

Jon's an idiot if he thinks 6 people can keep a secret, if he didn't want anyone to know he always could have kept his mouth shut. Sansa's just getting out ahead of it and trying to use that information to advance her interest rather than Jon's "golly gee, it'll work out just fine if I stick my head in the sand" plan of action.
  #207  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:02 PM
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If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He'd be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of.
Gendry, probably, now that he's been "legitimized" as Robert Baratheon's son. But that's only in the eyes of people who follow Dany and Jon.
  #208  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He'd be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of.
Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she's on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion.
  #209  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:05 PM
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Anything could happen but it seems to me we've got three major possibilities:

1. Jon dies or retreats to Winterfell or the Wall; Daenerys is Queen.
2. Daenerys dies; Jon becomes King Aegon VI.
3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms.
Daenerys uses dragonfire to melt down the Throne of Swords, institutes a republic council of peers and rules as regent instead of He Who Should Have Been King.
  #210  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:05 PM
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theres a ton of fan pushback on how and "the only black character on got" died ......

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ga...ath/ar-AAAYCgs
  #211  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:09 PM
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Jon has several problems, but none of them are unsurmountable, as long as he has good advisors.

Dany is perilously approaching Mad King levels of unsuitability.
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Jon ignores good advice all the time because he thinks honor demands it. He's completely intellectually unsound for the job and lacks the flexibility needed.

Just this episode he gets wonderful advice that would allow him to accomplish his goals and the goals of his self-professed queen. He undermines it at the first opportunity.

Jon would get played in the capital worse than Ned ever did.

*eta* But yeah, if you think the choice is Jon or Dany and you assume Dany will torture to death anyone she thinks opposes her, then go with Jon. I'm just saying those are both shitty options.
I think the question "Choose Your Ruler: Jon or Dany?" is interesting.

Me, I go with Dany. I think she's sincerely a political revolutionary (within her sociopolitical context!), and think her effectiveness at "breaking the wheel" -- at likely great cost -- is a gamble worth taking. Yeah, her desire to defeat Cersei and seize the throne is emotionally driven, but she's no mad king: Cersei not only deserves to be defeated, but needs to be defeated.

Jon is a great role model -- and totally feckless. More importantly, he's really bad at considering utilitarian ethical considerations.

Like real-world politics, this stuff is complicated, and i'm being a bit more didactic than I would be if this stuff was real.
  #212  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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Honestly, that would be the best for everyone. His birth precludes any future for him other than ruling or death, and he'd be a shitty ruler.

Jon's an idiot if he thinks 6 people can keep a secret, if he didn't want anyone to know he always could have kept his mouth shut. Sansa's just getting out ahead of it and trying to use that information to advance her interest rather than Jon's "golly gee, it'll work out just fine if I stick my head in the sand" plan of action.
At this point in the show they're ALL to stupid to rule and none of the major players have my endorsement. The seriously sad and fucked up fact is, over the course of this story, Cersei has brought more stability and peace to Westeros than all the other contenders combined.
  #213  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:12 PM
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Gendry, probably, now that he's been "legitimized" as Robert Baratheon's son. But that's only in the eyes of people who follow Dany and Jon.
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she's on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion.
Gendry doesn't have the political juice to be king, but he is a fan favorite who's on good terms with (almost) all the major players in Westeros. So they may go with a bastard blacksmith helps save the world and becomes king of the Seven Kingdoms story, and that's a nice fairy tale.

Didn't Jaime renounce any claims at some point? Jon did, for sure, but I guess that dying and coming back to life gives him a blank slate again.
  #214  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:16 PM
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Here's a question I would like someone to ask Dany (Tyrion should have done so seasons ago). What does "breaking the wheel" mean?

Ruling because your father was king is breaking the wheel? The North choose their own ruler and independence. Telling them to bend the knee or you'll murder them all is breaking the wheel?

It seems to me that breaking the wheel would be to break down the monarchy itself. Impose a different for of government that gave the peasantry a larger role in how they're ruled. However, Dany's actions do no support anything so radical, it's just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that's less magnanimous than she lets on.
  #215  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:17 PM
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theres a ton of fan pushback on how and "the only black character on got" died ......

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ga...ath/ar-AAAYCgs
I think the linked article's headline is designed to provoke back-and-forth outrage. The linked article had a few tweets as sources, and that's it.

Race in Game of Thrones is an interesting and fraught topic, and it's worth keeping in mind how this is a show starring white actors, pretty much -- but is there "a ton of fan pushback?" Let's not sensationalize.
  #216  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:19 PM
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Here's a question I would like someone to ask Dany (Tyrion should have done so seasons ago). What does "breaking the wheel" mean?

Ruling because your father was king is breaking the wheel? The North choose their own ruler and independence. Telling them to bend the knee or you'll murder them all is breaking the wheel?

It seems to me that breaking the wheel would be to break down the monarchy itself. Impose a different for of government that gave the peasantry a larger role in how they're ruled. However, Dany's actions do no support anything so radical, it's just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that's less magnanimous than she lets on.
They haven't invented Marxism* in Westeros yet. They're still thinking about "good leaders" as being "leaders who aren't sadistic rapists/slavers/sociopaths."

ETA: *or classical liberalism, or the social contract, or separation of powers, or proportional representation, or...

Last edited by snoe; 05-06-2019 at 02:20 PM.
  #217  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:19 PM
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Gendry doesn't have the political juice to be king, but he is a fan favorite who's on good terms with (almost) all the major players in Westeros. So they may go with a bastard blacksmith helps save the world and becomes king of the Seven Kingdoms story, and that's a nice fairy tale.

Didn't Jaime renounce any claims at some point? Jon did, for sure, but I guess that dying and coming back to life gives him a blank slate again.
Jaime gave up any titles as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard before being removed by the Faith of the Seven, but does being removed from your sworn position eliminate the sworn oath - unless a King or Queen allows it? I wouldn't think so.

I think Gendry probably has a better claim than Tyrion.
  #218  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:21 PM
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The actor who plays Jaime tells us what the character might be thinking... and teaches us some Danish slang!: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...olaj-interview
  #219  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:27 PM
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They haven't invented Marxism in Westeros yet. They're still thinking about "good leaders" as being "leaders who aren't sadistic rapists/slavers/sociopaths."
Then Robert was a good leader, but Dany still wanted to kill him.

So breaking the wheel just means being a better ruler than Cersei? Do you think that's what Tyrion thought Dany meant? Seems clear she thinks of herself as more than just a conqueror, but there's no indication of what her ruling philosophy is other than "bend the knee or my barbarian horde will murder you."
  #220  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:29 PM
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Remember Bran told Sansa, not Jon. And Bran is like a living encyclopedia. I wouldn't put it past Bran to tell Sansa and Arya about Gilly stumbling on it. Bran also may not know that Dany didn't want Jon to tell them. Although we don't know if Jon jumped in at all... so who really knows.
The real issue is not how many people actually know, but who Tyrion was thinking of when he said eight people know, and what that means. Sansa would have told him that she, Jon, Bran, and Arya knew, and when he asked how they knew would have also mentioned Sam as well as Bran. Tyrion told Varys, so that's seven. Whether or not Danaerys knows is extremely significant, while whether or not Gilly knows is totally irrelevant. If Tyrion was counting Gilly among the eight, then he thinks Danaerys doesn't know, and that would surely have come into play in his conversation with Varys.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-06-2019 at 02:31 PM.
  #221  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:33 PM
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Didn't Jaime renounce any claims at some point?
I'm pretty sure he did; he was the chief of the King's Guard, and I think that carried with it a renouncement of any birthright.

I gotta say, the ridiculous tactical errors that continue to be made are really pulling me out of this story. I can ignore minor things, but huge glaring mistakes made time and time again by folks who ought to know better Ö it's really bothering me. The misuse of siege engines, the lack of scouting, the way an army's most valuable assets are frittered away due to negligence or stupidity, the inability to learn and adapt Ö all these are frustratingly evident. Someone else said it's approaching Walking Dead-levels of dumb tactics, and I agree. That kind of stuff is what made me stop watching that show.

And Tyrion has gone from a schemer and strategist of the highest level, to a caricature of himself, almost Jon-like in his inability to predict what his adversaries will do.

This show ought to be sprinting toward a massive crescendo, an ending that would be a cultural touchpoint and resonate within the fantasy and non-fantasy genres alike. Instead it seems to be slouching toward King's Landing, a television sports car that's running out of gas and sputtering even as the finish line comes in sight.
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  #222  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:33 PM
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The real issue is not how many people actually know, but who Tyrion was thinking of when he said eight people know, and what that means. Sansa would have told him that she, Jon, Bran, and Arya knew, and when he asked how they knew would have also mentioned Sam as well as Bran. Tyrion told Varys, so that's seven. Whether or not Danaerys knows is extremely significant, while whether or not Gilly knows is totally irrelevant. If Tyrion was counting Gilly among the eight, then he thinks Danaerys doesn't know, and that would surely have come into play in his conversation with Varys.
Well the reason I wasn't sure that they knew that Dany knew is because they never discussed what Dany may do to Jon, and I'd think they may have thought about that.
  #223  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:39 PM
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Something that occurred to me last night is the array of funeral pyres at the opening of the episode must have consumed most of a forest. It's almost a big "fuck you" to the Children of the Forest.
And see, I was thinking "Look at them waste all that perfectly good dragon food".
  #224  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:44 PM
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Winterfell may be a cold and brutal place, but at least it has a Starbucks.
Speaking of continuity, the Tarth people heal remarkably well after being mauled by bears.
  #225  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:03 PM
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Is it actually possible that they will...


have Dany go "mad Queen" and become a crazy vengeance-fueled maniac? She insists they attack the city, killing all the innocents along the way, like a total wipeout type thing. Jon Snow realizes this is insane and agrees to take her out, something Tyrion and Varys are clearly thinking might be necessary.

Cue dramatic scene: Jon tells Dany she must stop and turn back. "You're tearing me apart, Dany!" or something like that. She doesn't care. John has to kill Dany in order to stop her from wiping out a bunch of innocents.

Someone else kills Cercei and her hand(and Euron or whatever his name is). John is clearly the one to become king.

But....he turns it down! "I never wanted it! I won't take it." He heads to the far North, leaving Westeros.

Tyrion or Sansa becomes king/queen, though I think Tyrion is more likely since Sansa has betrayed John.


OK, so I made all that up, but it requires them to totally ruin Dany, a character they spent the entire show building up to be good(and sane!).
  #226  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:06 PM
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Winterfell may be a cold and brutal place, but at least it has a Starbucks.
Do we have a time stamp for when that appeared? I want to see it.
  #227  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:12 PM
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Is it actually possible that they will...
have Dany go "mad Queen" and become a crazy vengeance-fueled maniac? She insists they attack the city, killing all the innocents along the way, like a total wipeout type thing. Jon Snow realizes this is insane and agrees to take her out, something Tyrion and Varys are clearly thinking might be necessary.
I don't think so. I think that she'll be sorely tempted to do the wrong thing but will refuse. "I'm not my father!"

In fact, I think that their next attack will surprising and will show great planning.

Last edited by GreysonCarlisle; 05-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.
  #228  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:14 PM
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As soon as they did to set up shot of the dragons flying I immediately saw him getting hit with bolts. It played out exactly the way my mind thought it would. The only difference is I thought Dragonstone would be occupied and the shots would come from land and not ships.


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Because the dragons tend to hover there and cut loose with flame for like 30 seconds rather than fire and flee.
We have seen them hover and shoot and do running fire. There is no need to speculate the show has shown that both are possible.

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So the odds can be evened for dramatic purposes.
Except for this of course.

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Gilly knows. She was the first one to find out.

Rhaegon was hit by two or three. The whole bloody fleet was shooting at him, from multiple angles. Which is basically how AAA worked. Mass of shot. Dozens or even hundreds were expended.


Dany needs to see and identify the enemy fleet as hostile. Not so simple. In WW2, it was not unusual for patrol a/c to miss ship formations, despite flying real close. And these are people who were activley looking and were trained and or experienced. See Battle of Capa Matapan, (when Italian A/C lost sight of the RN battle fleet, which then ripped apart Regia Marina cruisers) or the April 1942 Indian Ocean battles (when bith the RN and RAF off Sri Lanka and the Japanese Combined fleet were unable to find each other for long).
As for the anti ship operation, meh. Its a transport vessel, in a world without gunpowder. Ships of the line were oak castles, with thick hulls, no reason these ship would be.



I have money on him being Cercei's dead son with Robert.


Euronís ships have those giant Kraken sails. Not hard to spot at that height.


I would spend all my money betting against you. Gendry is what he is. His story wonít change any further. Still an outside chance heíll get on the throne. Zero chance heís Cerseiís son.

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I have a heard a theory that the creators kind of forgot Ghost existed and have added his stuff after the fact. This episode mad me think that might be true. The "goodbye" to Ghost was very lame from an emotional standpoint.
Not much of a spoiler but Iíll box it because it comes from an interview.
SPOILER:
I saw an interview with the producers who basically said that itís no problem to CGI the Dragon because no one has ever seen a real dragon. They can fully your brain into making it look realistic. When you CGI a giant dog it looks like a cartoon dog. They didnít forget about any of them. They made the conscious choice to minimize their roles as much as possible. Iím sure the little bit that they put ghost in was fan service to all of the complaints but they certainly donít want to use him anymore.



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I didn't like this episode all that much, and find a lot of aspects of it puzzling.

1. The distances and times start to make very little sense, in part because so much has to happen so quickly. How long are they saying it's gonna take for Jon and the army to get to King's Landing? That's a LONG way - Wsteros is a continent, not an island. 2500-2800 kilometres, according to most estimates. Realistically, it takes three months to march an army that far, assuming consistent supply and no one trying to stop them.

2. So, uh, why did Cersei not just kill Daenerys, Tyrion, et al. when they were standing there in plain view of ballista and archer fire? We saw the ballistas blow ships apart much further away than that. Seriously, she had the war won right there. The crown was in her hand and she just didn't take it? What the fuck? If your fanwank is that Westeros has some ultra-not-to-be-broken rule about killing an envoy, why've we never heard of the importance of that rule before, especially when Cersei, the most evil person competing for the throne, can win everything by breaking it? That was an ATROCIOUS scene, one that seemed to serve no purpose except to give torture porn fans something to watch when Missandei got killed. Her own father broke a rule that actually has been mentioned before, and shrugged it off by quite reasonably pointing out that war is a bitch and anyway it probably saved lives.

Instead, she murders Missandei - a move that serves no purpose and if anything is to her disadvantage. Missandei is emotionally important to Daenerys and Grey Worm, but her murder serves no strategic benefit to Cersei and if anything just means she is short a useful hostage.

3. So how did they spell Daenerys's name on her double latte?

Donairis
Danneres
Dennis
Debbie
Dorcas

4. Seeing Brienne reduced to a blubbering mess in her housecoat over a man leaving just did not seem like a dignified scene for that character.


The parts of the episode I liked were basically all the obvious tension between the major players. There really is no resolution between the objectives of Daenerys and Sansa; Daenerys insists the North be a part of her kingdom, and Sansa insists it not, and they're only allies as long as someone more dangerous exists. It is, frankly, extremely unlikely that the other kingdoms/regions will be all that enthusiastic about Queen Daenerys I once the loathsome Cersei is gone.

Anything could happen but it seems to me we've got three major possibilities:

1. Jon dies or retreats to Winterfell or the Wall; Daenerys is Queen.
2. Daenerys dies; Jon becomes King Aegon VI.
3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms.
I donít think the time compression means that much. No one was riding into rescue at the last minute so it doesnít really matter if they cut out the boring bits.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Here's a question I would like someone to ask Dany (Tyrion should have done so seasons ago). What does "breaking the wheel" mean?

Ruling because your father was king is breaking the wheel? The North choose their own ruler and independence. Telling them to bend the knee or you'll murder them all is breaking the wheel?

It seems to me that breaking the wheel would be to break down the monarchy itself. Impose a different for of government that gave the peasantry a larger role in how they're ruled. However, Dany's actions do no support anything so radical, it's just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that's less magnanimous than she lets on.
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Then Robert was a good leader, but Dany still wanted to kill him.

So breaking the wheel just means being a better ruler than Cersei? Do you think that's what Tyrion thought Dany meant? Seems clear she thinks of herself as more than just a conqueror, but there's no indication of what her ruling philosophy is other than "bend the knee or my barbarian horde will murder you."
That is the whole core of her character. She wants to think that sheís doing everything for noble reasons but in reality itís all for selfish reasons. She wants to be queen because itís her destiny. Because her father was king. Because no one else deserves it in her eyes. If she really cared what happened to the people she would turn it over to Jon because he can easily unite the north and the south. But she wonít because her main motivation is power just as much as Cersei.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:19 PM
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Is it actually possible that they will...


have Dany go "mad Queen" and become a crazy vengeance-fueled maniac? She insists they attack the city, killing all the innocents along the way, like a total wipeout type thing. Jon Snow realizes this is insane and agrees to take her out, something Tyrion and Varys are clearly thinking might be necessary.

Cue dramatic scene: Jon tells Dany she must stop and turn back. "You're tearing me apart, Dany!" or something like that. She doesn't care. John has to kill Dany in order to stop her from wiping out a bunch of innocents.

Someone else kills Cercei and her hand(and Euron or whatever his name is). John is clearly the one to become king.

But....he turns it down! "I never wanted it! I won't take it." He heads to the far North, leaving Westeros.

Tyrion or Sansa becomes king/queen, though I think Tyrion is more likely since Sansa has betrayed John.


OK, so I made all that up, but it requires them to totally ruin Dany, a character they spent the entire show building up to be good(and sane!).
I really am starting to believe this is going to end happily and neither Jon nor Dany will die. However, I think if she does die, I think it will be in battle, taking out the boats or something or maybe, boom, right when she first attacks the city. Some way that doesn't force Jon to kill her. They're telegraphing her "going mad" quite obviously, to the point the only way to subvert expectations is to NOT have her go mad. Also, really, what's so "mad" about her lately? She makes some upset faces, which honestly, are totally reasonable given the circumstances?

Do you notice that in these later episodes the subverting expectations has been NOT to do what GRRM would have done, and instead do what the fans want? Like, I'm sure most people would be sad if tons of main characters died at the battle of winterfell, but everybody expected it, and, NOPE, to the point of WTF? How the hell did they survive piles of zombies coming at them for a half hour straight?? Oh yeah, cause the fans want it, not cause they expect it.

I feel the same about the Jamie/Brienne hookup. Satisfy the shippers.
  #230  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:26 PM
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And see, I was thinking "Look at them waste all that perfectly good dragon food".
Speaking of dragon food, why do they always show rib cages and such from the animals the dragons eat? Are they really going to be picking meat from between bones? Seems like they would be eating the whole goat or sheep or whatever in one bite.
  #231  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:31 PM
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Prediction--Dany is knocked off her dragon and both are killed while attempting some bit of derring-do. They win, Cersei dies, and Jon refuses the throne. He stalks away to the north, not often to be seen again.

Dany, not actually dead, but broken in body and spirit, finds him at their spot, and they retire together from a world now made safe. Safer, anyway.

Tyrion takes the Iron Throne, either through his claim to have been uncle to two kings or through whatever "breaking the wheel" means. Turns out that he was the stealth main character all along, and his own Hero's Journey was all to make him a good and decent ruler.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:41 PM
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Speaking of dragon food, why do they always show rib cages and such from the animals the dragons eat? Are they really going to be picking meat from between bones? Seems like they would be eating the whole goat or sheep or whatever in one bite.
Probably just for the visuals, but yeah, that makes no sense. They already established early on they are not shy about eating people whole.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:42 PM
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IAlso, really, what's so "mad" about her lately?
I mean not giving a shit about massacring a bunch of innocent folks by dragon fire in order to win the upcoming Battle of King's Landing seems to be a bit mad. Perhaps cruel is a better way to describe it.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:47 PM
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OK, so I made all that up, but it requires them to totally ruin Dany, a character they spent the entire show building up to be good(and sane!).
If you think that Dany has always been depicted as always being good and sane you haven't been paying attention. From the very first season, she's been shown being utterly cruel and ruthless to those who stood in her way, or who she thought wronged her. And those flashes of her character are becoming more frequent and significant. Her flipping out and deciding to "Burn them all" is consistent with her character as it's been established over eight seasons.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:48 PM
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Speaking of dragon food, why do they always show rib cages and such from the animals the dragons eat? Are they really going to be picking meat from between bones? Seems like they would be eating the whole goat or sheep or whatever in one bite.
That's what they crap out.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:50 PM
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That's what they crap out.
Imagine the buttholes on those things!
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:57 PM
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Speaking of dragon food, why do they always show rib cages and such from the animals the dragons eat? Are they really going to be picking meat from between bones? Seems like they would be eating the whole goat or sheep or whatever in one bite.
I envision a world of wagon-sized owl pellets crashing from the sky. Dragon-pellet scavenging could end up becoming its own economy, alleviating the need to even keep sheep as livestock, as the pellet-mongers guild provides the wool and fur to the clothiers, rugmakers, etc.
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  #238  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:00 PM
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What about, instead of an Iron Throne, millions of socially-conscious and unified citizens of Westeros, all just stepping up and doing their part?


IMHO, they've really dumbed down the show over the past couple of seasons. The best part of GoT was always the political intrigue and unexpected plot twists. They didn't even have massive set-piece battles until the end of Season 2. It was like the show Rome where a couple of riders show up and exclaim "Hooray!! We won the battle of whatevershire!" And the battles they did have seemed like it took at least a season to maneuver the players in place.
  #239  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:04 PM
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I would spend all my money betting against you. Gendry is what he is. His story wonít change any further. Still an outside chance heíll get on the throne. Zero chance heís Cerseiís son.
I was one who thought Gendry could be Robert's and Cercei's son. But I watched Jaime's reaction when he heard the news that Gendry was Robert's bastard and thought I might see shock. But he only showed mild curiosity. Since he is the only person in the show who could possibly know if that was true, I say that idea is dead.
  #240  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:05 PM
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What about, instead of an Iron Throne, millions of socially-conscious and unified citizens of Westeros, all just stepping up and doing their part?
I think that's Letterkenny.
  #241  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:05 PM
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The problem Westeros has is that not only has its technology apparently stagnated for hundreds or thousands of years but so has its government and political philosophy. If we set it as approximately equivalent to between the fall of Rome and the start of the Italian Renaissance, maybe further narrowing it down to the High Middle Ages, a lot was going on that never had an equivalent in Westeros. There's apparently no older known political philosophy like Plato and Aristotle. There's no equivalent of Anselm or Aquinas. There is one "university" with the Citadel in Oldtown, but it seems like any learning from the maesters doesn't really spread. There's definitely nothing like the technology development of the 12th and 13th centuries.
  #242  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:22 PM
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Speaking of dragon food, why do they always show rib cages and such from the animals the dragons eat? Are they really going to be picking meat from between bones? Seems like they would be eating the whole goat or sheep or whatever in one bite.
They probably shit out the bones.
  #243  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:24 PM
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Just imagine if most of the families who were in charge 8000 years ago were still in charge today?

And why would dragons shit? Would you, if you had a powerful incinerator inside your body somewhere? I imagine that dragons' only waste product is smoke/exhaust burps.
  #244  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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Just imagine if most of the families who were in charge 8000 years ago were still in charge today?

And why would dragons shit? Would you, if you had a powerful incinerator inside your body somewhere? I imagine that dragons' only waste product is smoke/exhaust burps.
Just try doing a conservation of energy calculation on how much they need to eat to spew out all those flames......
  #245  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:31 PM
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And why would dragons shit? Would you, if you had a powerful incinerator inside your body somewhere? I imagine that dragons' only waste product is smoke/exhaust burps.
To be biologically pedantic , just burning food wouldn't produce the kind of energy needed to run muscles. It might work for a steam-powered robot, but not an animal.
  #246  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:47 PM
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Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she's on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion.
Originally, maybe. But now I think Cersei is on the throne as Cersei. She decided that when she told Jaime she would tell the world he was the father of her child.

Last edited by iamthewalrus(:3=; 05-06-2019 at 04:48 PM.
  #247  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:47 PM
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Dany and Jon are both around 30 right? Did either of them ever have any military tactics training? I don't think so. So they are not exactly Patton and are bound to make mistakes in tactics.
  #248  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:51 PM
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Dany and Jon are both around 30 right? Did either of them ever have any military tactics training? I don't think so. So they are not exactly Patton and are bound to make mistakes in tactics.
Dany, probably not. But Jon was raised by the King in the North, so I'm sure he got some training studying old battles or whatever.
  #249  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:54 PM
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Dany and Jon are both around 30 right? Did either of them ever have any military tactics training? I don't think so. So they are not exactly Patton and are bound to make mistakes in tactics.
Early 20s for both.
  #250  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:55 PM
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Dany, probably not. But Jon was raised by the King in the North, so I'm sure he got some training studying old battles or whatever.
*Warden of the North

And maybe not? I mean history lessons sure, but Jon was considered the bastard of Winterfell. Robb if anyone would have gotten that sort of training as the Heir to Winterfell. Robb was also pretty good at tactics - of course his battles happened before the show left the source material.
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