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  #251  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:04 PM
Bijou Drains is online now
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they never talk about any type of formal schooling for the average person do they? I know Sam went to study at the citadel. Also I recall a scene where Bran was learning at home about the various families and areas.
  #252  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:05 PM
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Average person like peasants? hah no, they don't get any schooling.
  #253  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:05 PM
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WTH, 250 posts by the afternoon after the episode? I cannot catch up with that, I'm sorry. (The rumors of this board's demise are clearly exaggerated, at least if we get the right topic.)

I finished watching the episode and felt pretty good about it--a return to form after the previous episode was mostly a misfire (although I did like the opening and the climax of Arya killing the NK). But then my son hit me with a text message outlining just some of his many objections to the writing of it, and I can't say as I can really rebut most of his complaints:

Quote:
1. The whole logistics of taking King's Landing. They wanted the support of the people to turn against Cersei, by starving them? Not to mention that Cersei ALREADY shouldn't have the support of the people after she fucking blew up the High Sparrow and a lot of other popular religious leaders in the Sept.

2. The fact that Dany has the Vale, Dorne, Highgarden, and just about every goddamn house on her side, and Cersei only has Euron and the Golden Company, yet Dany decides to march her depleted forces there right away because "our enemies grow stronger"? How? If anything it's the other way around lol.

3. So let me get this straight. Euron completely was able to sneak attack Dany and her dragons and fleet, despite having aerial scouting, during the daytime, on the water? This makes no sense. Not to mention that Euron was able to accurately shoot Rhaegal high up in the air, reload, shoot him again, reload, and shoot him again...instead of having all the ballistas shoot both dragons as soon as possible? And then they all try to shoot Drogon but miss somehow, despite only one hitting Rhaegal with complete accuracy? Plus according to GRRM, the only way to kill a dragon with a non magic projectile is through the eye, otherwise they would bounce off the scales. This also makes the supposed existential threat to humanity, the Night King, even more pathetic in retrospect as he's about just as threatening or even less threatening than Euron fucking Greyjoy.

4. The Bronn scene was so pointless. So lets pretend that Bronn didn't grow as a character and hes still a cuttthroat, yeah? Even then, how did he get not only past the gates of Winterfell, but into THE ROOM OF THE HAND OF THE KING, with a FUCKING CROSSBOW? There weren't any guards holding him up? Seriously? Plus, he holds up Jaime and Tyrion and demands Highgarden, then waltzes out. So many things wrong with this scene. He shoots a warning crossbow bolt, then instantly reloads it. Crossbows should take long enough to reload that Jaime could have punched his face in in time. Secondly, why the fuck should Dany honor Tyrion's offer? Thirdly, why didn't Jaime and Tyrion call the guards after Bronn left to chase him down and execute or at least imprison him?

5. Jaime. So after that entire redemption arc he's back with Cersei huh. What a waste.

6. Teleportation. This has been a problem since season 7, but characters appearing on one side of the continent in one scene and then on the other the next is maddening.

7. You have Arya, an all powerful assassin, and you don't even think of asking "hey Arya, would you mind sneaking into Kings Landing, killing Cersei, and then wearing her face to surrender and let Dany and her army in? Thanks, with how you got past those thousands of wights and several White Walkers around the Night King we should have this wrapped up by tomorrow morning".

8. See 7 but with Bran. You have the entire knowledge and history of Westeros at your fingertips and someone who can control animals anywhere to spy, yet you do nothing with it. Brilliant.

9. Jon being a fucking moron, again. Why does he have to tell his sisters? Ned didn't tell anybody and he was still.an honorable man right to the end.

10. So in negotiations, the exact wrong thing to do is to walk up to enemy artillery's range and just present yourself. What's even dumber was that Cersei could have ended the war easily and had her artillery fire on Dany and her dumbass Hand of the King, easily.

11. Why is the outside of King's Landing a desert now?

12. Gendry's bastard name was Waters, not Rivers.

13. Who is the "new Prince of Dorne"? All of the Martells are dead.

14. So apparently Jon doesn't give a shit about Ghost since the showrunners completely forgot about him, despite them sharing such a close bond in the first few seasons. How sad

15. Varys being neutered in terms of dialogue, intelligence, and usefulness yet again, pun intended.

There's more, but I'm tired. So many shitty things about the show now...

The only one I really disputed right off the bat was #5. I think that's a misdirect: Jaime is going to kill or thwart Cersei, not join her. But that remains to be seen.
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  #254  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc, Jr. View Post
2. The fact that Dany has the Vale, Dorne, Highgarden, and just about every goddamn house on her side, and Cersei only has Euron and the Golden Company, yet Dany decides to march her depleted forces there right away because "our enemies grow stronger"? How? If anything it's the other way around lol.
I remember thinking that, as well. "No, Dany, from the conversation you just had, your enemies are growing weaker!"
  #255  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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As far as 3 goes, it wasn't Euron reloading and shooting, the whole fleet had ballistas. As for 13 just because the Martells are dead does not mean someone else can't be in charge, they said "new prince" not "new Martell". The rest is pretty dead on though, but honestly we can't really expect two guys who signed up to do book adaptations to write a satisfying conclusion to one of the greatest fantasy series of all time. Nobody but Martin could do that, and at this point even that is in serious doubt.
  #256  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:16 PM
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The only one I disagree with is Bran. As I've said other places, he's become Dr. Manhattan. With the world safe from the Others, would he even be willing to intervene in any way with the affairs of men from here on out? It would be nice to at least have a short conversation where he's asked to help and just flatly says no.
  #257  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:19 PM
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I actually like Daeneris's descent into evil, if that's in fact what happens. It's more realistic than, "If only a good person was on the throne, we'd all be happy!"

Power corrupts. If you look at the tyrants in history, many of them thought they were doing good. It's just that when idealism runs up against reality, hard decisions have to made. And those hard decisions can twist a person and make it easier to do more 'hard' decisions, until you are starving an entire region intentionally 'for the Realm' because you think it will ultimately do less harm than if the entire kingdom went hungry. Murdering people? If they are a threat to the realm, it becomes easy to justify. Doing terrible things to stay in power? You can start justifying that by convincing yourself that if you lose, the next ruler will be worse.

Everyone is the hero of their own story.

So I could easily see Daeneris, who is now backed into a corner with only one dragon, a much reduced army, her entire advisory staff either dead or perhaps plotting against her, and an unexpected claimant to HER throne, finally cracking and deciding that the only way out of this is to simply burn Cersei and her entire court, even if it means taking out all the people in King's landing.

If she finds out that Varys is having veiled conversations with Tyrion about killing her, who has she got left? Greyworm isn't a councilor, he's a guard and military commander. Missandei and Ser Jorah are dead. Jon went from being her love to her rival. Sansa is openly hostile to her. The people she recently saved didn't show her any kindness, and acted like Jon and Arya were the big saviors, even though Jon was riding a dragon provided by Daeneris was was basically out of the fight for most of it and had no effect on the outcome at all. Daeneris sacrificed most (other than those who died), and gained the least from that battle. You can't blame her for being bitter, or even for starting to hate the people of Westeros.

So I can foresee Daeneris going mad, getting on Drogon, and just burning everything in sight. Maybe it won't go that way, but it's now a plausible scenario given what she's experienced since coming to Westeros.

Speaking of Greyworm - if I were betting on his fate, it would be that he is going to die in battle avenging Missandei. He has nothing left to live for. Characters that lose their loved ones like that are often prime candidates for the heroic charge that saves the day but gets them killed. As the show gets more TV-tropy as it goes on, this becomes a likely outcome for him.

As for the Parlay scene, I don't think those ballistas would have been very useful against that group. Ballista do not have explosive bolts. They kill what they hit. In the case of a ship, we can fanwank that flying splinters and such would make them much more devastating. Against troops in a field, not so much. Historically, smaller ballista were used in anti-personnel roles, but you'd have to think firing big lumbering things like that from a kilometer away wouldn't be that effective against people who can move and scatter.

But Tyrion should have been pincushioned. I see no way around that. Cersei wanted him dead, he's dangerous because he knows a lot that Daeneris can use against Cersei, and it would have made an even bigger statement than just killing an unknown (to Cersei) advisor to the Queen. He's only alive because of plot armor.

There would have been a good way to make that Ballista stuff more believable - they should have put wildfire explosive on the tips of those bolts. But speaking of wildfire - King's landing is still fully wired up to go boom, right? What happens if a dragon starts strafing the city and hits one of the caches of wildfire? A 'bittersweet' ending would be for Daeneris to go mad and start burning things, only to detonate the wildfire and blow everyone up including herself and her dragon. No more Iron Throne, no more King's landing, and the entire power structure of Westeros changes.

The 'bittersweet' ending could be Sansa ruling the north as Queen, Gendry perhaps ruling his region as Lord of Storm's end, Samwell Tarley ruling his family's region, etc. Westeros becomes a European-like collection of city-states and small countries, and the 'wheel is truly broken. Perhaps someone ruling the region where King's landing was from Dragonstone (maybe Tyrion), and pretty much everyone else dead. Or Jon goes north beyond the wall to be 'where he belongs' which was hammered into us repeatedly in the last episode. Or, they get evidence that there will be a new Night's King, that the dead will begin rebuilding, and Jon goes back to being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and begins rebuilding the wall.
  #258  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:24 PM
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Nitpick: I don't think Samwell Tarly wants to rule his family's land. I think he'd be happy to return to the Citadel and spend the rest of his life as a scholar. Perhaps Dany's reward to him was going to be to put him in charge there? And I imagined a scenario where Bran goes with him and uses his powers to dictate an accurate history of Westeros.

And if Dany does end up burning down King's Landing (or even threatening to) that would be ironic, since that's exactly what her father was planning when Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon overthrew him. So perhaps she starts in that direction and one or more of the Starks work with Gendry to overthrow her? Sort of a repeat of history.
  #259  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
theres a ton of fan pushback on how and "the only black character on got" died ......

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ga...ath/ar-AAAYCgs
In fact, I didn't expect her or Grey Worm to die, precisely for this reason.
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  #260  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:30 PM
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Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she's on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion.
Cersei, in her own right, has no dynastic claim to the throne. She's a usurper, who seized the throne because she could. She was never a Baratheon, merely married to one. That would make her Baratheon children heirs, if she had any, but not her. The Lannisters have no claim to the throne at all. Even if they did, both Jaime and Tyrion as males would inherit before Cersei, even though Tyrion is younger.

Robert was a usurper, but if all the surviving Targaryens die, that is, Jon and Danaerys, then a legitimized Gendry is the only available heir to a recognized king.

But this is all moot. Basically Westeros is such a complete shambles at this point that the throne is for the taking by anybody with sufficient military and political power.
  #261  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:38 PM
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I may have missed it, the way this thread keeps sprouting, but I want to shoot down all the speculation of Jon and Dany sitting together on the throne.

"Shoot down" is a pun. In any standard fantasy, the ending would always have been the king and queen on their twin dragons flying around their kingdom to the loving cheers of their subjects. When Rhaegal got shot down that fantasy got shot down with it. One dragon, one ruler. And that's only if the dragon survives. That's not going to happen. Leaving Dany alive with a dragon turns her into a power too great for Westeros. They're both going down somehow. Especially if she keeps riding the dragon straight into the ballistas because she's too dim to think of attacking from the rear.

Forget who sits on the Iron Throne. Who sits on her throne with her gone? Most of the world will be in the same position. House Tarly has Sam, who foresworn it. With the Wall down, do all the pledges get cancelled? House Baratheon has Gendry, who knows nothing about kinging. Riverrun and Hightower are apparently up for grabs if Bronn can be put so easily in them. The Freys are dead. The Martells are dead. Arryn seems dead. The Mormonts have a preteen. Most of Essos's males are dead and their system of slavery has been destroyed. The Lannisters are about to go kaput.

A prediction that would be startling: all the houses fall and a one world government succeeds them.
  #262  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:53 PM
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OK, so I keep seeing that Jaime went back with Cercei, but is that what happened? I asked my wife if she thought he was leaving to rejoin her or to maybe kill her.

My wife said it was ambiguous.

Was the dialogue clear that he is legit leaving to freaking rejoin the woman he just ran away from?

What a crappy development if so. They wanted him in that big battle so bad, they had him leave. Now have him rejoin her? No way.

I hope he was returning to kill her, or at least attack her in his own way.
  #263  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Leaving Dany alive with a dragon turns her into a power too great for Westeros.
Prior to this episode, maybe. The only dragon was felled by a magic big-bad death incarnate.

Now we know they're weak to an array of not-even-that-big ballistas, and King's Landing has enough of them to line the walls.

How effective is the dragon going to be?
  #264  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:17 PM
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I think the linked article's headline is designed to provoke back-and-forth outrage. The linked article had a few tweets as sources, and that's it.
[...]

Let's not sensationalize.
...its only "sensationalizing" if you pretend that black people don't exist, that black fans of Game of Thrones don't exist, and that the death of one of only two black characters to forward the arc of both the white character and the male character didn't piss off significant chunk of that fanbase. It was a near-classic fridging.


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Race in Game of Thrones is an interesting and fraught topic, and it's worth keeping in mind how this is a show starring white actors, pretty much -- but is there "a ton of fan pushback?"
The decision to cast mainly white actors wasn't an accident. The decision to have only 1 woman director on the series (who last directed in season 4) and only 2 credited female writers (the last one written in 2013) was not an accident. There is a reason why many people don't trust David Benioff and D.B. Weiss with the planned TV series Confederate.
  #265  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:20 PM
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The 'bittersweet' ending could be Sansa ruling the north as Queen, Gendry perhaps ruling his region as Lord of Storm's end, Samwell Tarley ruling his family's region, etc. Westeros becomes a European-like collection of city-states and small countries, and the 'wheel is truly broken. Perhaps someone ruling the region where King's landing was from Dragonstone (maybe Tyrion), and pretty much everyone else dead. Or Jon goes north beyond the wall to be 'where he belongs' which was hammered into us repeatedly in the last episode. Or, they get evidence that there will be a new Night's King, that the dead will begin rebuilding, and Jon goes back to being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and begins rebuilding the wall.
I really see something like this as the ending, but with (I hope!) both Jon and Dany dead. Neither one of them is a fit ruler of a small village, much less a kingdom. Hell, give Bronn Highgarden to boot. All great houses begin somewhere. Except let someone else rule from Dragonstone - Tyrion belongs with Sansa.
  #266  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:25 PM
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Prior to this episode, maybe. The only dragon was felled by a magic big-bad death incarnate.

Now we know they're weak to an array of not-even-that-big ballistas, and King's Landing has enough of them to line the walls.

How effective is the dragon going to be?
If the dragon survives, then it's a world-class weapon. That's why it won't survive.
  #267  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:30 PM
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I think its safe to say that in the end there will only be Dany or Jon sitting on the throne! Theres no way that they would end the show with them living happily ever after in GOT universe.

And another problem with this season is how they suddenly out of the blue are changing Danny attitude. Up until this episode there was no signs that she was building up resentment and suddenly in this episode she ready to explode!!! And just seems so out of her character too.
Im really disapointed with how this season is unfolding and I think the plot armor will continue forward to get an unlikely outcome like for example Sansa becoming the Queen of the seven kingdoms.

Right now it seems highly unlikely but the writers can make it happen with some twisted plot line that nobody can imagine...

Anyway I am for anything now... heck lets Dany get more dragons somehow and instead of having one she gets another three and obliterate the city...
  #268  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:33 PM
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When he said "Be the Lady of Storm's End", I was half-expecting her to reply "I'd rather be the LORD of Storm's End. GIMME YOUR FACE! [stab!]"

And I was hoping when Dany was angrily walking away at the end, she'd mutter "Burn them all...."
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  #269  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:41 PM
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heck lets Dany get more dragons somehow and instead of having one she gets another three and obliterate the city...
That's puzzled me from the start. The dragon eggs Dany got were rare, but they weren't unheard of. Surely, there are more where those three came from.
  #270  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:07 PM
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Did anyone notice the Starbucks cup in front of Dany during the victory feast?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/game-...b04e275d4ca2da
They're opening up locations everywhere, aren't they?

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So next ep we hear a dragon roar and Euron looks shocked

Wild ass theory #455: The Lord of Light resurrects Rhaegal. Remember all that talk about the Lord of Light pissing off after The Great War has ended? There's your boon Dany. Talk about your literal Deux Ex Machina.
I kinda wondered if Rhaegal was going to wash up onshore still alive like Tyrion did. Doesn't seem likely though.

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...The show is having us believe that a battery of medieval ballista, fired from rolling and pitching ships decks, can fire bolts capable of scoring multiple hits at a moving target several thousand feet in the air. All this while remaining undetected by two dragons, because the fleet happens to be out of the camera's field of view.
The more you think about it the more absurd it gets.

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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Dragons were believed to be obsolete, so probably no one thought about dragon defense systems in centuries. The ballista design might have been found in the archives, or one of the mechanical engineering maesters was clever enough to design it from scratch...
I got the impression that Qyburn just found the plans somewhere for something that was never actually built. The Targaryen Conquest took place over years, not decades and was 300 years ago; by the time anyone figured out a defense system against dragons they extinct and the only families with the resources to fund development were House Targaryen and it's allies.

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Varys has always claimed to be motivated by a desire to make things better for ordinary people ("the Realm" as he refers to it). Now that he sees Dany is becoming less and less stable, and may be on the verge of killing thousands of people, he is naturally reconsidering his support for her.
Varys seems to be the only person in show with any conception of Westeros as a nation-state and not just a hierarchy of fiefdoms.

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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
...Robert was shit, and Joffrey appeared to be an even worse option. But if they were seeking for an upgrade among known quantities then Renly would have been the best option. (Admittedly the "too gay to produce an heir" might have been a drawback.)...
To be fair they never actually tried Loras fluffing him up and/or Margaery dressing up like her brother.

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...To the extent that Game of Thrones is about answering Varys's riddle about who holds power, Gendry is not reasonably in the running. Gendry now has the Baratheon name, but nothing else. He has no loyal underlings, no army. The Baratheons already fought a 3-sided war against themselves before any of the other wars got going. There can't possibly be any left. He has no guile. No ambition. No understanding of how the Game of Thrones is played. If he holds Storm's End, it will be entirely as the dependent vassal of Dany, which is just what she wants...I actually really liked Bronn in this episode, after some consideration. He's moving up the ladder in terms of the riddle. He's realized that you don't become a noble by being a really good sellsword. You become a noble by convincing other people to do your work for you, under threat of violence. Much better to just threaten the powerful directly than to do their bidding...
Best case scenario for Gendry is that he either ends up a vassal; the Baratheon Dynasty wasn't even well established enough for him to serve as a convenient figurehead for somebody else.

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...
3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms.
I'm thinking this is how the story ends; in the end there's no Iron Throne left for anyone to sit on.

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Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she's on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion.
IIRC in theory Cersei's claim to the throne is that the Lannisters are related to the Baratheons and now that House Baratheon it's claims devolve onto House Lannister (of which Cersei is the heir since Jaimie & Tyrion are disqualified), but it's just window dressing for her holding the throne by right of conquest.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
…However, Dany's actions do no support anything so radical, it's just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that's less magnanimous than she lets on.
I've always taken her plans to break the wheel as plans to replace Westeros's feudal monarchy with an absolute one; instead of local nobility more or less ruling as they please as long as they payed homage to the Iron Throne there's be a network of non hereditary provincial governors answers only to her.

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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
...That is the whole core of her character. She wants to think that she’s doing everything for noble reasons but in reality it’s all for selfish reasons. She wants to be queen because it’s her destiny. Because her father was king. Because no one else deserves it in her eyes. If she really cared what happened to the people she would turn it over to Jon because he can easily unite the north and the south. But she won’t because her main motivation is power just as much as Cersei.
I think this neatly sums up Daenerys. And at least Cersei has moments of self-awareness about herself.

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Originally Posted by asterion View Post
The problem Westeros has is that not only has its technology apparently stagnated for hundreds or thousands of years but so has its government and political philosophy. If we set it as approximately equivalent to between the fall of Rome and the start of the Italian Renaissance, maybe further narrowing it down to the High Middle Ages, a lot was going on that never had an equivalent in Westeros. There's apparently no older known political philosophy like Plato and Aristotle. There's no equivalent of Anselm or Aquinas. There is one "university" with the Citadel in Oldtown, but it seems like any learning from the maesters doesn't really spread. There's definitely nothing like the technology development of the 12th and 13th centuries.
I think the maesters deliberately try to keep as much as their knowledge a secret as they can to preserve their own position.

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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
they never talk about any type of formal schooling for the average person do they? I know Sam went to study at the citadel. Also I recall a scene where Bran was learning at home about the various families and areas.
Highborn children are tutored at home by septas, maesters (at least for the boys), and the occasional specialist (like now Ned Start hired a "dancing master" for Ayra).

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Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
Average person like peasants? hah no, they don't get any schooling.
I'd like to think that some septs might have some kind of schools attached to them where promising (and/or obliging) lowborn children can learn the basics of arithmetic & literacy while local septon/septa scouts for the next generation of lower clergy.

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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
...Westeros becomes a European-like collection of city-states and small countries, and the 'wheel is truly broken...
Which is basically what Westeros was like before the Targaryens.

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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
...But this is all moot. Basically Westeros is such a complete shambles at this point that the throne is for the taking by anybody with sufficient military and political power.
Agreed; it's actually been that way for awhile.
  #271  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:11 PM
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As far as 3 goes, it wasn't Euron reloading and shooting, the whole fleet had ballistas. As for 13 just because the Martells are dead does not mean someone else can't be in charge, they said "new prince" not "new Martell". The rest is pretty dead on though, but honestly we can't really expect two guys who signed up to do book adaptations to write a satisfying conclusion to one of the greatest fantasy series of all time. Nobody but Martin could do that, and at this point even that is in serious doubt.
You're right. No one possibly could. So many fans have already decided exactly what should have and shouldn't have been gone and there is no possible way that any one story could satisfy all of these disparate stories at once. Can't be done.

I get wanting stories to play out a certain way but reading the messages and watching fan videos I get people predicting what is going to happen based on story constructs they're used to and it made me wonder if we've gotten too good at recognizing story elements to actually enjoy stories any more.

I mean, even people saying they are expecting trope shattering writing are making expectations on what to expect only based on what it should not be rather than on what it actually is.

I'm not talking about the folks complaining about characters making stupid decisions here. i'm talking more about people disappointed about who did or didn't die and when they did or didn't die and the like. Those who expect the writing to follow a formula that it didn't follow.

So, like I said, I don't think any creator ever who shared his creation to 2 or more people could expect to have created something that satisfies everyone who experienced his creation. People don't work that way. Everyone has an opinion.

I don't remember who posted this above but they said that the current writing has been slanted to appeal to the less critical fans rather than write for the hard core fans.

What's wrong with that though? Even Shakespeare did that. It's doing that and still creating the masterpiece that is the trick.

Gotta say on the bad tactics front I've gotta agree the decision for a frontal assault is made due to only having 2 more episodes not for story reasons. Cercei has laid out a fair amount of coin and they're not going to stick around forever. When the gold runs out, they are gone or worse, they turn on her. I'd let her keep running up that bill as long as possible if I was her enemy.

Of course, Dany may not feel she has the time due to Jon's growing popularity. Every day people aren't doing something is another day for them to prefer him over her.
  #272  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:11 PM
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I trust you wrote all that while puffing on a pipe
This can, just barely, be construed as an attack on the post, rather than on the poster, and so won't earn a Warning for personal insults. But it's still way too personalized for CS. Dial it back, Dale Sams.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:20 PM
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Poor Ghost but at least is in his natural environment, I think this was Jon letting go of his Stark baggage.

Jon will be King but will never be a Stark ever again.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:33 PM
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Good episode, I enjoyed it despite its flaws. I agree that those were howitzers, not ballistas.

The thing that pisses me off is Bronn just walking into Winterfell like that. And why wouldn't Tyrion and Jaime promise whatever and later just have him quartered? The whole scene is just stupid IMO.
  #275  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:35 PM
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That's what they crap out.
The crap out fully intact rib cages? So it's like whole kernels of corn, but for dragons?
  #276  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:36 PM
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Prior to this episode, maybe. The only dragon was felled by a magic big-bad death incarnate.

Now we know they're weak to an array of not-even-that-big ballistas, and King's Landing has enough of them to line the walls.

How effective is the dragon going to be?
It's easy. The wait until night time, get up to a very fast speed and then just strafe the tops of the walls with dragon fire. One pass per side. No time to line up a shot, or anything.

They probably won't do that, though.
  #277  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:44 PM
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That's puzzled me from the start. The dragon eggs Dany got were rare, but they weren't unheard of. Surely, there are more where those three came from.
There are more dragon eggs floating about, but they are 'inert'; they are seen as items of beauty and value, but have no practical purpose. The same was true of Dany's eggs when they were given to her...they were nothing more than pieces of 'historical art'. Nobody dreamed that they would ever hatch.

The fact that they did hatch is what gives credence to the idea that Daenerys is destined to take the throne - she apparently has powers that literally no one else in the world has.
  #278  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:45 PM
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If anyone wants to know what the director thinks of Jaime’s motivation to leave and about Ghost and other stuff here is an interview.

https://www.insider.com/game-of-thro...terview-2019-5
  #279  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:47 PM
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The fact that they did hatch is what gives credence to the idea that Daenerys is destined to take the throne - she apparently has powers that literally no one else in the world has.
She explains in one episode that she had a dream that told her to put the eggs into fire. Not sure if it's any more magical than that.
  #280  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:49 PM
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Wait, the Starbucks cup wasn't Photoshopped? How could they fuck up that bad?

I really hope that wasn't Winterfell that Bronn strolled into carrying a crossbow. I heard a podcaster say it might have been a local inn, and hopefully that's so because otherwise...yeah. (Even then, it's still not a great scene.)


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The Mormonts have a preteen.

If you mean Lyanna, she dead. She died in the previous episode, fighting the undead giant. That was pretty dark and hard to follow, admittedly, but they also showed her corpse at the beginning of this episode.
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  #281  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:54 PM
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That's puzzled me from the start. The dragon eggs Dany got were rare, but they weren't unheard of. Surely, there are more where those three came from.
There are more dragon eggs floating about, but they are 'inert'; they are seen as items of beauty and value, but have no practical purpose. The same was true of Dany's eggs when they were given to her...they were nothing more than pieces of 'historical art'. Nobody dreamed that they would ever hatch.

The fact that they did hatch is what gives credence to the idea that Daenerys is destined to take the throne - she apparently has powers that literally no one else in the world has.
There was a human sacrifice of a priestess in the fire when the dragon eggs hatched. And this was also Khal Drogo's funeral pyre. Perhaps one or both of those were necessary for the eggs to hatch? How often has anyone tried to hatch dragon eggs? Did they establish the proper conditions? Who knows, as no one knows the proper conditions.
  #282  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:55 PM
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I remember thinking that, as well. "No, Dany, from the conversation you just had, your enemies are growing weaker!"
Yeah they gave her some awful dialog in this episode. I chalk it up to the writers not knowing what to do with this intense character who suddenly has every advantage and a boyfriend, but still has to be intense and anxious for the next 3 episodes.

If she accelerates from brooding bitch to full-on, rabid, gotta-put-her-down Mad Queen in the space of 1-2 episodes, I will seriously throw a shoe at the TV.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 05-06-2019 at 07:55 PM.
  #283  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:56 PM
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Wait, the Starbucks cup wasn't Photoshopped? How could they fuck up that bad?

I really hope that wasn't Winterfell that Bronn strolled into carrying a crossbow. I heard a podcaster say it might have been a local inn, and hopefully that's so because otherwise...yeah. (Even then, it's still not a great scene.)
No, that was Winterfell.
  #284  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:32 PM
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But then my son hit me with a text message outlining just some of his many objections to the writing of it, and I can't say as I can really rebut most of his complaints
Your son wins the thread.
  #285  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:49 PM
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If you mean Lyanna, she dead. She died in the previous episode, fighting the undead giant. That was pretty dark and hard to follow, admittedly, but they also showed her corpse at the beginning of this episode.
Right. So they were at a preteen and now... ?

BTW, I was amazed to find out that the actress who portrays her is 16. And Maisie Williams thinks she has problems looking young.

I also bet that a huge majority of the people who were appalled at Maisie Williams' thoroughly adult character having sex were also screaming in approval when the preteen stabbed somebody in the eye. Seriously, people, get help.
  #286  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:50 PM
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Nitpick: I don't think Samwell Tarly wants to rule his family's land. I think he'd be happy to return to the Citadel and spend the rest of his life as a scholar. Perhaps Dany's reward to him was going to be to put him in charge there? And I imagined a scenario where Bran goes with him and uses his powers to dictate an accurate history of Westeros.
I agree that's a possibility, but with the other male Tarlys all dead, Sam may feel it's his duty to go back to his family. But I can also see him as head Maester of the Citadel.

I could also see the last episode containing a time jump say, 10 years into the future and have the survivors of these events gather so we learn what ultimately happened to all of them. That could be the 'bittersweet' ending - the survivors gathering to commemorate the dead and talk about old times, while letting the audience learn what the real long-term outcome of it all turned out to be.

Quote:
And if Dany does end up burning down King's Landing (or even threatening to) that would be ironic, since that's exactly what her father was planning when Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon overthrew him. So perhaps she starts in that direction and one or more of the Starks work with Gendry to overthrow her? Sort of a repeat of history.
I think the callback to her father could very much be intentional. I'm half expecting either her or Cersei at some point saying, "Burn them all!". It would probably be a little too on the nose to have Jamie be there when she says it and kill her just like he did the mad king, but that wildfire is still sitting there under King's landing, and I suspect we're going to see it used before this is all over.
  #287  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:57 PM
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I also bet that a huge majority of the people who were appalled at Maisie Williams' thoroughly adult character having sex were also screaming in approval when the preteen stabbed somebody in the eye. Seriously, people, get help.
Could it be because stabbing an undead giant in the eye with a knife is fake, but the nudity was all so real?
  #288  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:58 PM
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Wait, the Starbucks cup wasn't Photoshopped? How could they fuck up that bad?
It's about 16 minutes in, just as Tormund is saying of Jon "Most people who are murdered stay murdered." It's only on screen for a couple seconds.
  #289  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:59 PM
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Wait, the Starbucks cup wasn't Photoshopped? How could they fuck up that bad?
Aptly symbolic. Even the production crew is distracted at this point (really, it should have been trivial to disguise it in post-prod).

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-06-2019 at 09:01 PM.
  #290  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:59 PM
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I really see something like this as the ending, but with (I hope!) both Jon and Dany dead. Neither one of them is a fit ruler of a small village, much less a kingdom. Hell, give Bronn Highgarden to boot. All great houses begin somewhere. Except let someone else rule from Dragonstone - Tyrion belongs with Sansa.
If Tyrion winds up with Sansa at the end, I think it would more likely be as her Hand to the Queen. But yeah, I think there is room there for them to stay married and have a life together. I just don't think it's very likely.

Also, one way the ending could be 'bittersweet' is to discover that after the 'wheel' is broken and all the new people in place, they turn out to be just as bad as the old ones. Sansa spent her later formative years being in the company of one scheming asshole after another - don't be surprised if she becomes a little too much like Littlefinger. Did you notice that she actually commanded young girls to seduce and have sex with some pretty unsavory characters? That's not sweet innocent Sansa, or even good-but-world-weary Sansa. That's a cold, calculating Sansa ordering people to do unpleasant things. Granted, she showed warmth to the Hound after that, and she looked kind at that moment. But those moments seem to be getting more rare.

Bronn at Highgarden would not be an improvement over the Tyrells. Daeneris, if she survives, could be a harsh ruler. Half the Dothraki are apparently still alive, and all they do for fun is rape and pillage. The 'bittersweet' ending could be that our heroes win and proceed to muck things up just as bad or worse than the last bunch.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
  #291  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:04 PM
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If Tyrion winds up with Sansa at the end, I think it would more likely be as her Hand to the Queen. But yeah, I think there is room there for them to stay married and have a life together. I just don't think it's very likely.

Also, one way the ending could be 'bittersweet' is to discover that after the 'wheel' is broken and all the new people in place, they turn out to be just as bad as the old ones. Sansa spent her later formative years being in the company of one scheming asshole after another - don't be surprised if she becomes a little too much like Littlefinger. Did you notice that she actually commanded young girls to seduce and have sex with some pretty unsavory characters? That's not sweet innocent Sansa, or even good-but-world-weary Sansa. That's a cold, calculating Sansa ordering people to do unpleasant things. Granted, she showed warmth to the Hound after that, and she looked kind at that moment. But those moments seem to be getting more rare.

Bronn at Highgarden would not be an improvement over the Tyrells. Daeneris, if she survives, could be a harsh ruler. Half the Dothraki are apparently still alive, and all they do for fun is rape and pillage. The 'bittersweet' ending could be that our heroes win and proceed to muck things up just as bad or worse than the last bunch.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
I'd actually really like that as an ending.
  #292  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:07 PM
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Do we have a time stamp for when that appeared? I want to see it.
It was right around the 18:50 mark on my DVR but I don't know if that is in any way universal. They're still at the celebration banquet and Tormund and the boyos are bragging up Jon when he looks over at Dany still in her seat.
  #293  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:10 PM
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A prediction that would be startling: all the houses fall and a one world government succeeds them.
Even better from the viewpoint of "defying conventions": The Faith Militant makes a reappearance after all the nobles have killed each other off and picks up the pieces. They establish an oppressive theocracy that rules for one thousand years.*

*Nothing like medieval Europe, of course.
  #294  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:19 PM
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And another problem with this season is how they suddenly out of the blue are changing Danny attitude. Up until this episode there was no signs that she was building up resentment and suddenly in this episode she ready to explode!!! And just seems so out of her character too
I totally disagree with this. They have been foreshadowing Daeneris' move to the dark side for some time.

Consider - back in Essos she had the world by the tail. She lived in fabulous places, surrounded by people who loved her. She could be absolutely brutal (putting heads on pikes, having dragons eat innocent people, etc), but we could overlook it because the people she was brutalizing were slavers, so that's okay. During this period her dragons have just gotten bigger and stronger, as has her army.

Then she arrives in Westeros, and expects the people to hail her as a conquering hero. But Westerosi are different. There is no slavery. There are just people trying to survive. She attacks the Lannisters and wins, but a dragon gets injured. She burns two well-known, honorable captives alive. People start to fear her instead of admire her. Word spreads north about another Targaryan who likes to burn people. The people she meets do not cheer her.

Then she finds out that Westeros is fighting another kind of war - one she must help them to win, or there will be no Westeros to conquer. She loses her first dragon in that war. Remember, she's bound to her dragons as her children. So she loses a child in that war, but she fights and saves Westeros. But then after the battle she is once again ignored and Jon is hailed as the hero. Sansa won't give Daeneris the time of day. She feels truly isolated.

Of course, around this time she also learns that the man who came to her, got her to fall in love with him, and then dragged her into his war suddenly announces that he's Aegon Targaryan and she has zero claim to the throne. Her world has to be spinning around her right now. Essos was nothing like this.

Even so, she holds up her end and heads back to Dragonstone to prepare for the next battle. She's ambushed, she loses ANOTHER dragon and her beloved Missandei, killed in front of her in brutal fashion.

In the meantime, her Hand Tyrion keeps making mistake after mistake, and those mistakes seem to be benefiting the Lannisters. And Tyrion is still a Lannister. And now he's telling her that even those she's close to losing everything, she must not retaliate with her dragon, which is currently the only thing that gives her any real power at all.

So now Daeneris is a Queen without a kingdom, with two out of three dead 'children' and no support structure around her at all. She's unmoored.

I can see how someone like that could just snap and decide that she's surrounded by enemies and fools, and that the Westerosi are a hateful people who won't recognize what she's done for them. So... Burn them all, and rule by fear if you can't win them over.

At this point, I think that's a likely possibility. Or, if they get really TV-Tropy, she'll run off on Drogon and everyone will think she's about to do something horrible, but they'll misjudge her and she will have been trying to do something smart and not evil - but die trying it.

Either way, I'm betting on a tragic end for Daeneris Stormborn.
  #295  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:32 PM
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Thank you Sam for summing that up. Its not paranoia if its true.
  #296  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:34 PM
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It's about 16 minutes in, just as Tormund is saying of Jon "Most people who are murdered stay murdered." It's only on screen for a couple seconds.

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Originally Posted by Red Wiggler View Post
It was right around the 18:50 mark on my DVR but I don't know if that is in any way universal. They're still at the celebration banquet and Tormund and the boyos are bragging up Jon when he looks over at Dany still in her seat.
I'm looking at it right now on HBO GO. It's at the 17:39 mark from the start of the show, which of course includes the previous highlights and the introductions. And, yes, it's only for about 2 seconds. I certainly missed it last night.
  #297  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:35 PM
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Wait, the Starbucks cup wasn't Photoshopped? How could they fuck up that bad?

I really hope that wasn't Winterfell that Bronn strolled into carrying a crossbow. I heard a podcaster say it might have been a local inn, and hopefully that's so because otherwise...yeah. (Even then, it's still not a great scene.)




Bronns a huge fucking badass and Winterfell has to be massively understaffed. IF anyone challenged him theyre probably dead or unconscious.
  #298  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:37 PM
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It's easy. The wait until night time, get up to a very fast speed and then just strafe the tops of the walls with dragon fire. One pass per side. No time to line up a shot, or anything.

They probably won't do that, though.
Could also go to 5000 feet above the Red Keep and come down straight at it. IF any of those ballistas can be turned inwards theyd have no time to do anything

They MIGHT do that. Then have Drogan actually on top of the damn thing, spewing fire everywhere...that "Danys Dragons theme song" blaring.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 05-06-2019 at 09:38 PM.
  #299  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:41 PM
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The more you think about it the more absurd it gets.
I thought about it some more. While ominously lining up the dragon in the cross hairs may add to the tension, it seems to me a sure-fire way to not hit anything. You kind of want to aim where the dragon is going, not where it is.




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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=
Gendry now has the Baratheon name, but nothing else. He has no loyal underlings, no army. The Baratheons already fought a 3-sided war against themselves before any of the other wars got going. There can't possibly be any left. He has no guile. No ambition. No understanding of how the Game of Thrones is played. If he holds Storm's End, it will be entirely as the dependent vassal of Dany, which is just what she wants...I actually really liked Bronn in this episode, after some consideration. He's moving up the ladder in terms of the riddle. He's realized that you don't become a noble by being a really good sellsword. You become a noble by convincing other people to do your work for you, under threat of violence. Much better to just threaten the powerful directly than to do their bidding...
I think Gendry would just live like any other lord or bannerman. Presumably he would collect rent from his lands and some maester would handle the day to day administration of Storms End. There are a ton of lords, most of whom are not involved in the "Game of Thrones", aside from when they are called to fight.

Although, technically, wouldn't Gendry, now named as the last Baratheon, now have claim to the Iron Throne?
  #300  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:44 PM
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Could also go to 5000 feet above the Red Keep and come down straight at it. IF any of those ballistas can be turned inwards theyd have no time to do anything.
I didn't know Dany was related to Adama.
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