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  #601  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
I had the impression her lack of appetite was real, but coincidentally thwarted Varys. If she was worried about that, she could have had someone of unquestioned loyalty like one of the Unsullied prepare her food, or use some other strategy. And the first person she accused of betraying her to Tyrion was Jon, and poison would never have been Jon's way.
No, she had the whole story. Notice she wasn't surprised when Tyrion named Varys. Instead, she immediately recounted to Tyrion that Jon told Sansa, who told you and then you told Varys. So she knew Varys knew but Jon betrayed her.
  #602  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:45 PM
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The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed. The little girl Arya tries to save is carrying a white toy horse. Arya is repeatedly shown being trampled by the stampeding crowd. ...
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I can't think of another case in which this show has done that kind of a fake-out. In fact, I don't think they've shown anyone appearing as a spirit or ghost after death. I don't think they'll start now. I also can't see it serving any kind of plot point now.
Yes (my emphasis). It would be very jarring to have a character appear as a ghost in this show in which in yea-many hours of episodes, that's never happened.

Also, the "pale horse" being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a "pale horse" as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn't mean it carries any specific meaning in the Game of Thrones world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven't established any such thing.)
  #603  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:04 PM
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So everyone in the company has to learn everyone else's names afresh each day?
If you want a proper answer to this question, you'll have to ask it in the open discussion thread.
  #604  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
Yes (my emphasis). It would be very jarring to have a character appear as a ghost in this show in which in yea-many hours of episodes, that's never happened.
We've had typical cliff-hanger episode endings where a character appeared to be a goner (e.g. Jaime's near-drowning after the Battle of the Goldroad) but later appeared alive. But we haven't seen to my recall a character who appeared to be alive at the end of an episode turn out to really be dead.
  #605  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:21 PM
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Also, the "pale horse" being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a "pale horse" as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn't mean it carries any specific meaning in the Game of Thrones world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven't established any such thing.)
I would tend to agree. While "death" riding a pale horse has a religious significance, in this case, I think it's more about creating "haunting imagery" of a lone pale horse that just happened to survive the cataclysm (presumably it's original owner wasn't so lucky). In fact, I kind of feel like this image is frequently used in film and tv.
  #606  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:24 PM
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Too many people disagreed with me about the Danys thing to quote them all, so let me just explain what I am saying.

With Anakin, there was setup, it was just pathetic: occasional comments about dictatorships and allusions to him being a hothead, being steered by Palpatine, culminating in executing some sith dude instead of taking him prisoner.
Transitioning to the dark side was a stretch, let alone that same day massacring children.

And I felt the same way about Dany, even though there has been far more setup. I felt there was still a big gap between what has been set up and Dany going full on "Burn them all!"
  #607  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:29 PM
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Stick around and watch The Wire, Deadwood Rome, and The Sopranos if you haven't already. Though I think they're all on Amazon Prime, too, unlike GoT.


Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO.
  #608  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:33 PM
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And I felt the same way about Dany, even though there has been far more setup. I felt there was still a big gap between what has been set up and Dany going full on "Burn them all!"
Yeah, that's about how I feel too. Jesse Cox articulated it better than I could here.
  #609  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:34 PM
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Y'know when she tells Tyrion "you did not disappoint Sansa" meaning she knew Sansa fully expected him to go ahead and set things in motion... don't fail me one more time etc.

She then tells him they have captured his brother. In this context it would seem like Danaerys should fully expected Tyrion to indeed go to his brother and try to hatch a harebrained scheme...

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From Daeneris' point of view, it was totally logical for her to do what she did. There was no path to the throne for her left other than to rule through power and fear. None.
...
And if you're going to do that, you had better instill that fear right out of the gate, or you're just going to have to do it later.

This isn't insanity - it's the logic of tyrants. And many tyrants have been heroes - until the going gets really tough and 'hard' decisions have to be made. Then they show their true colors.
Indeed. Her "mercy" line reflects it: you can paraphrase it as "we're going to go through this terrible ordeal so future generations don't have to", a common propaganda line in many a war or many a crisis.

One defect I have observed on Dany's part is that she feels entitled to be loved the way she wants it to be. By Jon, by the people. And she considers herself grievously wronged when it does not happen. Part of her problem is that though Jon does not want to rule, and she may even believe him when he says he does not want to rule, she just knows that there is a whole nation who would acclaim him and, under the right circumstances, heave her off the throne and forcibly shove him into it whether he wants it or not. So one other thing that she's doing by obliterating the capital city and all that population is not just providing an example of what all others must fear, it is also denying her opposition a "base" in any condition to do anything.


(A more real problem whoever ends up alive next week has is that she has just plunged the kingdom into economic depression by annihilating a major center of trade and crafts and a huge chunk of its tax base and fixed assets, and charbroiling a significant part of the labor force... but since when has high fantasy taken that into account)



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I don't get the leap from "she wanted to rule by fear" to burning down the whole city. She could have easily ruled by fear without doing so. She could have easily destroyed the Red Keep without destroying the rest of the city (in fact, when she took off after the bells rung, I believe we were supposed to think she was heading for the Keep) if she wanted to ensure victory and death of Cersei's crew. This isn't supposed to be some long-held plan of hers, the show was trying to convey she snapped and went crazy, not like evil tyrant crazy, but absolutely unhinged freakout, need to be in a padded room, mad-king type of crazy.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next episode she's back to the personality she had before the battle. Not because it makes any sense, but because the writing in the show has been a disaster for the past two seasons.
I have been thinking, that if this is madness it is episodic madness. At a critical point, the Blood Lust just took over and she went berserker: could think, see, feel nothing but Dracarys, because after all she has done she is just not getting the satisfaction of victory. She is normally just a would-be enlightened despot, as others have said looking more noble and righteous because her enemies were so vile. But lately everyone who was sincerely close to her is getting whacked, her heretofore sage advisors have gotten into snorting the Incense Of Bad Decisions, her would-be prince consort now wants nothing to do with THAT and turns out to outrank her... the closer she's to the top the more things turn shitty.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-15-2019 at 09:38 PM.
  #610  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:36 PM
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Yeah, I was going to respond "sez who"? Dragons are fantasy creatures. Dragon's breath is a fantasy substance. Who says that if you show dragon's breath doing X at one time then it mustn't be able to do Y at another time. No one in the context of the fiction made such a rule.

We know that at least once dragon's breath melted part of a castle, and that at least once it blew up much of a fortified city. And once the breath of a zombie dragon tore down a magic wall of ice.

That's not enough of a sample to draw any conclusions about the limits of dragon's breath or to label that an inconsistency.
African or European dragon?
  #611  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:36 PM
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Dragons are fantasy creatures. Dragon's breath is a fantasy substance. Who says that if you show dragon's breath doing X at one time then it mustn't be able to do Y at another time. No one in the context of the fiction made such a rule.

We know that at least once dragon's breath melted part of a castle, and that at least once it blew up much of a fortified city. And once the breath of a zombie dragon tore down a magic wall of ice.

That's not enough of a sample to draw any conclusions about the limits of dragon's breath or to label that an inconsistency.
In that case no story has ever had an inconsistency.
You can explain anything if you are allowed to add extra ad hoc information or propositions.
  #612  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:25 PM
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The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed.
*It is* the same horse. Whether or not the writers intended us to notice it was the same, I don't know (although I assume yes), but it is.

However, it's not clearly seen as being dead. It's just seen lying on the ground. In fact I remember wondering if the horse was dead or not when I first saw the golden company's commander death scene.

My take is that it's just there to give a glimmer of hope. Like for instance showing a small flower growing in a devastated landscape. Somehow, it managed to survive despite all odds, and so did Arya.
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  #613  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:29 PM
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You're mistaken. "Torgo Nudho" is Grey Worm in Valyrian; he only ever had that name as far as we know.
Now I wonder if Torgo means "grey" or "worm"? I'll bet SDMB user Torgo would know but their last post was January 2006. Where has the time gone?

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No, she had the whole story. Notice she wasn't surprised when Tyrion named Varys. Instead, she immediately recounted to Tyrion that Jon told Sansa, who told you and then you told Varys. So she knew Varys knew but Jon betrayed her.
We may still not be giving Daenerys or the writers enough credit for playing the Game of Thrones. Don't go to the courthouse to change your daughter's birth certificate just yet is all I'm saying. There's still room for a really powerful ending that muses both about the nature of loyalty as the true seat of power, as well as showing, very directly in a way that is very easy for viewers to understand, how easily it is shaken.

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I don't think so. I think the nod simply meant : "OK, do as he says".
Or: "Told you he'd try to spare his siblings and King's Landing."

Last edited by eunoia; 05-15-2019 at 11:33 PM.
  #614  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:30 PM
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Tell you what: Show me another instance anywhere in the history of the show in which Dany goes out of her way to slaughter innocents or noncombatants and I'll agree with you. Or, for that matter, another instance in which she's shown as not caring at all whether her army lives or dies.
Why? If a kid shoots up a school, do we not believe it if they never killed anybody else? No, we look to see if there were any red flags.

Dany had red flags coming out the wazoo.

You can't even use the "but she was such a good kid" defense. She wasn't.
  #615  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:51 PM
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Dany had red flags coming out the wazoo.
Of course she had. She used to be a complex, layered character.
  #616  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:53 AM
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I really hope we aren't going to start next episode with Jon and/or Tyrion fretting around Dragonstone, whining to Dany all "Hey, what were you doing? Didn't you hear the bells?" It's got to be that both of them are on the run, beginning the resistance, straightaway at the beginning of the episode. Right?


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Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO.

First season is a tough hang. I recommend skipping all but the pilot and "Guest", maybe the season finale, then go from there. Starting with S2, it's one of the best shows of all time.


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I have been thinking, that if this is madness it is episodic madness. At a critical point, the Blood Lust just took over and she went berserker: could think, see, feel nothing but Dracarys,

Right, kind of like Dark Phoenix. What made that story so tragic is how much her adopted "family" loved Jean Grey.
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  #617  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:30 AM
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I would tend to agree. While "death" riding a pale horse has a religious significance, in this case, I think it's more about creating "haunting imagery" of a lone pale horse that just happened to survive the cataclysm (presumably it's original owner wasn't so lucky). In fact, I kind of feel like this image is frequently used in film and tv.
When it was happening I assumed they were pulling a Pale Rider sort of thing. I was expecting, in fact, the camera to pan down after Arya left to show us Arya's dead body. And it would have been very...

Cheesy. Really cheesy.

But, hey, it's not like the books don't indulge in the occasional serving of cheese. So it's fine. Really dramatic. Viewers aghast. The futility of life and how all, noble and peasant, fall in front of god-like power. Good stuff.

But they didn't.

Now, ambiguity would make sense if it was the last scene. With a whole episode to go, that ambiguity makes little sense, and means a missed opportunity to cap the Bells episode with a big, dramatic moment.

However, I guess that something like Jon Snow finding his sister's dead body, the viewers being all "so that horse was actually Death, huh?" and that triggering the final confrontation could work too.
  #618  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:57 AM
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In that case no story has ever had an inconsistency.
You can explain anything if you are allowed to add extra ad hoc information or propositions.
You’re the one adding extra information by concluding that “because dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall, that means that dragon’s breath is limited to melting stone in all cases.”

The story does not say that, not in any way at all. That’s not how fantasy fiction works. It’s the atory’s prerogative to set a limit like that and it doesn’t, neither explicitly nor implicitly.
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  #619  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:16 AM
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You’re the one adding extra information by concluding that “because dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall, that means that dragon’s breath is limited to melting stone in all cases.”
You are quoting somebody else, I have never said any such thing.
If you want to know my opinion about the dragon's breath, I don't actually care: it's an inconsistency, but not a critical one, or one which spoils my enjoyment of the show.
Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me.

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The story does not say that, not in any way at all. That’s not how fantasy fiction works. It’s the atory’s prerogative to set a limit like that and it doesn’t, neither explicitly nor implicitly.
If something is inconsistent, it's inconsistent. If you find that OK because fantasy, then fine.

What I'm disagreeing with, is the notion that if you can fanwank an explanation, then it's not an inconsistency at all.
You can explain away any apparent contradiction in any fiction if you're cool with adding on ad hoc suppositions specifically for that purpose.
  #620  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:28 AM
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You are quoting somebody else, I have never said any such thing.
If you want to know my opinion about the dragon's breath, I don't actually care: it's an inconsistency, but not a critical one, or one which spoils my enjoyment of the show.
Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me.


If something is inconsistent, it's inconsistent. If you find that OK because fantasy, then fine.

What I'm disagreeing with, is the notion that if you can fanwank an explanation, then it's not an inconsistency at all.
You can explain away any apparent contradiction in any fiction if you're cool with adding on ad hoc suppositions specifically for that purpose.
I'm using "you" in a general sense.

There's no inconsistency in the story on this point and I'm not fanwanking. I'm simply taking the information that the story itself gives us, which is:

1. One dragon's breath melted Harrenhall
2. A zombie dragon's breath broke the Wall
3. Another dragon's breath exploded the Red Keep

That's all the story tells us about the capabilities of dragon's breath when it is used on large structures. There is nothing inherent in those depictions that is either inconsistent or contradictory. There is nothing in those depictions that says that any one of them represents a limitation on dragon's breath. There is nothing in those depictions that says that this is what will happen every time dragon's breath is used.

You have to fanwank to create any inconsistency or contradiction. Specifically, you must draw the conclusion that —

— One dragon's breath melted Harrenhall; thus, any time dragon's breath is used on a stone structure, the structure will melt and will not explode or crumble or be affected in any other way.

That's the fanwank. That limitation is not in the story.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 05-16-2019 at 06:30 AM.
  #621  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:31 AM
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We may still not be giving Daenerys or the writers enough credit for playing the Game of Thrones. Don't go to the courthouse to change your daughter's birth certificate just yet is all I'm saying.
Well, they'll have to be extremely creative now to make Danaerys into a good person. Unless we learn that she's been warged by Bran, or replaced by a faceless man, it's difficult to come back from burning children alive out of spite.
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  #622  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:42 AM
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Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO.
Reading a synopsis :


SPOILER:
After travelling to Australia on the advice of the voices in his head, Kevin Sr. learns from a prophetic chicken [a prophetic...chicken??] that a flood will come on the seventh anniversary of the Departure, leading him to believe it is his destiny to stop the flood.



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  #623  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:43 AM
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Also, the "pale horse" being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a "pale horse" as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn't mean it carries any specific meaning in the Game of Thrones world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven't established any such thing.)


I don't think people are saying that Arya took the pale horse as a sign of death, but that we, as the audience, could.

Or are you saying that a show can't use symbolism with their audience unless the in-show universe has the same symbolism?
  #624  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:02 AM
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Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me.
This is the kind of thing I couldn't possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it's fantasy, but because it's not a travel documentary. The stuff I want to see during the limited screen time isn't discussions of how long it takes a certain amount of soldiers to march a certain distance; nor do I want the show to compromise on awesome or affecting or otherwise interesting scenes in order to ensure that the logistical stuff is internally consistent.

Character consistency is far more important to me, so I care more about whether Dany etc. is acting in a way consistent with her character. I think she is, but I understand folks disagree.

However, I don't think the disagreement is a problem. The show creators--writers, directors, actors, and more--are artists creating art. If they create something that plausibly works, and I disagree with some of their artistic decisions, that's still an interesting work. It's only if they did something completely out of character (Dany watches the surrender of soldiers, leaps off her dragon, and sings a Broadway Musical song about winning against the odds) that I'd be worried.

Yeah, there's some ambiguity in her motives: is she in barbarian fury? Is she spiteful as hell? Is she following through on a calculated plan to shore up her support? There's evidence for each possibility, and it's worth discussing. I appreciate this sort of ambiguity in stories.

Others don't, that's fine, but it's a matter of taste, not a matter of artistic failure.
  #625  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:03 AM
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I like the "Arya is dead" fan theory as a fan theory. It's fun, and I totally see the evidence people are pointing to.

I wouldn't like it if the show actually did that, though, mainly because they went out of their way to imply that there is no afterlife and there are no ghosts. On two separate occasions they had Melisandre directly ask people who were raised from the dead about the afterlife, and both guy said there was nothing, only blackness.

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This is the kind of thing I couldn't possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it's fantasy, but because it's not a travel documentary.
Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That's the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-16-2019 at 07:06 AM.
  #626  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:22 AM
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I don’t necessarily want to watch characters crossing the country, but the story would have benefited from some sense that there is a passage of time, and things aren’t happening right after each other.
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  #627  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:37 AM
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Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That's the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring.
Interesting. I watched Season 1, watched the first few minutes of Season 2 which was a montage of infants being brutally murdered, and Noped right out of the show until like season 6 or so. Given the thread's rules, I'll just say that I have a remarkable and almost preternatural ability to guess how the progressed in the meantime, so I was able to pick up on what was happening in Season 6; maybe that's why I don't care too much about seeing the travelogue.
  #628  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:45 AM
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Interesting. I watched Season 1, watched the first few minutes of Season 2 which was a montage of infants being brutally murdered, and Noped right out of the show until like season 6 or so. Given the thread's rules, I'll just say that I have a remarkable and almost preternatural ability to guess how the progressed in the meantime, so I was able to pick up on what was happening in Season 6; maybe that's why I don't care too much about seeing the travelogue.
Oh, in that case, in earlier seasons, at various points characters had to travel to and from King's Landing. Typically this was handled by showing them traveling and having adventures for like 4 or 5 straight episodes, and these travelogue stories are probably most people's fondest memories of the show. It's certainly what led to the audience falling in love with Arya, I think, and Jaime as well. (I think Brienne was beloved the moment she appeared on-screen and has been ever since.)

Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances in between scenes of a single episode.

Worse, Cersei was pregnant last season, then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) -- several by the guy who got her pregnant -- and after all that her belly was still flat as a board.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-16-2019 at 07:49 AM.
  #629  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That's the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring.
The main point of those journeys was character development, not getting from point A to point B. The incidents that happened en route were the reason for them, not the destination. Those characters have all been developed as far as they're going to be at this point, so there's now point in such wanderings. At this point in the story, I don't really care about whether they had a hard time crossing the Trident or where the Dothraki found grazing for their horses.

I agree they could have done a better job giving a sense of how long travel times were, but it's not really essential to the story and doesn't bother me that much.

Last edited by Colibri; 05-16-2019 at 08:08 AM.
  #630  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:07 AM
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Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances in between scenes of a single episode.

Worse, Cersei was pregnant last season, then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) -- several by the guy who got her pregnant -- and after all that her belly was still flat as a board.
Yeah, I don't mind so much that we don't see two weeks of marching. It's quite dull and I take it from the fact that they skipped it that nothing interesting was said or done on in on the way. Fine. But where it gets weird is when the interesting stuff we *are* following seems to take place over a different timeline. If it takes Jon a month to march from Winterfell to KL, then a month has passed for everyone. So e.g was Dany not eating for a whole month? Was Tyrion weighing up whether to tell Dany about Varys for that long? It just feels a bit weird and disjointed. Not the end of the world, but compared to the loving co-ordination of the various scenes setting up e.g. the Red Wedding, it's slack.
  #631  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:37 AM
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I think one of the problems is that people are trying to look at this as a logical decision she made. I don't really think it is - I believe Daeny basically had a psychotic break. This was the culmination of all the various shitty things that happened to her - losing her closest friends, "losing" Jon, losing her claim to the throne (for all intents and pusposes), losing her dragon.

I think it is as simple as her just snapping. The last straw is that with the city surrendering, it's possible she won't get her revenge on Cersei which after Missandei's death is her driving emotion.
  #632  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:45 AM
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Reading a synopsis :


SPOILER:
After travelling to Australia on the advice of the voices in his head, Kevin Sr. learns from a prophetic chicken [a prophetic...chicken??] that a flood will come on the seventh anniversary of the Departure, leading him to believe it is his destiny to stop the flood.





I do not remember any significant foul.
  #633  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:54 AM
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I previously said there was no examples of Dany exercising violence against an innocent target...

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the one she fed to her dragons
This is the Great Master of Meereen who got burned.

Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaah okay.

I've been looking up plot summaries because I have no memory whatever of this incident. I found the "Meereen politics" subplot duller than hell. I've watched every episode of the show at least twice, except for the boring Meereen shit in Season 5 which struck me as insipid and contrived. Instead I rewatched Hardhome from that season like four more times. I think that was a better use of my time.

But this is unfortunate for me in this discussion, because it's pretty much a perfect counter-example to what I was saying.

It's almost perfectly parallel to the Bells in exactly the way I previously said did not exist. Well shit, it does exist. She starts out trying to respect due process, rule of law. She's going to give a murderer a trial. When the murderer is extrajudicially killed before the trial, she executes that killer for not respecting the legal process of the city. She's maintaining law and order, even upholding the law against people who support her. Or at least, she's trying to. But political tensions flare up, there's rioting (again, this seemed weak and contrived when I watched it, but it's all show canon), and then when things get too hard for her, she immediately resorts to feeding an innocent to the fire to try to re-establish her control. So... yeah. She gives a few nods to the law&order route, but when she thinks that doesn't work out properly for her, she fires the flames with complete indifference to the guilt or innocence of the specific person she lights up. Some of the Great Masters were probably involved in the uprising against her, but she had no specific reason to believe that the guy who died was one of them.

He doesn't even have a name. He's just a faceless bystander, which means she doesn't give a shit about him. Which is also nicely parallel to the Bells. Well okay. I was pretty definitively wrong on this one.
  #634  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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I'm using "you" in a general sense.

There's no inconsistency in the story on this point and I'm not fanwanking. I'm simply taking the information that the story itself gives us, which is:

1. One dragon's breath melted Harrenhall
2. A zombie dragon's breath broke the Wall
3. Another dragon's breath exploded the Red Keep.
You forgot:

4. Diddly squat.

There have been multiple scenes with Jon or Arya ducking down a convenient alleyway, or diving behind a natural rock outcrop to seek cover from dragon-fire, and the rock in those instances doesn't explode or melt. (Maybe Jon's & Arya's plot armor is an "area effect" aura.)
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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An online petition has been "signed" by more than 300,000 fans of the show, asking HBO to remake season 8 with "competent" writers.
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  #636  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:15 AM
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She starts out trying to respect due process, rule of law. She's going to give a murderer a trial. When the murderer is extrajudicially killed before the trial, she executes that killer for not respecting the legal process of the city.
I thought this was telling, too. She executed someone without trial for the crime of executing someone without trial. It was played off as "law and order" but it was anything but. It was "obey me or die".

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Old 05-16-2019, 09:18 AM
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There's a thread about that.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:22 AM
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There's a thread about that.
Whoops! Didn't see that.
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  #639  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:08 AM
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That's all the story tells us about the capabilities of dragon's breath when it is used on large structures. There is nothing inherent in those depictions that is either inconsistent or contradictory. There is nothing in those depictions that says that any one of them represents a limitation on dragon's breath. There is nothing in those depictions that says that this is what will happen every time dragon's breath is used.
Cool, so Danys can use dragon fire to rebuild the city next episode. Not only would this be fine, but no-one would even be allowed to suggest any inconsistency.

Sarcasm aside, it is pretty obvious that "Dragonfire can do N things" was not a deliberate writing choice. They just thought of what shots would look cool, and failed to notice any inconsistency.

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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness
This is the kind of thing I couldn't possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it's fantasy, but because it's not a travel documentary. The stuff I want to see during the limited screen time isn't discussions of how long it takes a certain amount of soldiers to march a certain distance; nor do I want the show to compromise on awesome or affecting or otherwise interesting scenes in order to ensure that the logistical stuff is internally consistent.
I've seen much worse than wet farts.

My objection is not that there should be long scenes of soldiers marching (although personally I wouldn't mind) but that the world suddenly seems tiny. In previous series, the main characters had some separation, and some of the strategy was about who was where and who might be taken by surprise or whatever. And previously I could suspend disbelief that these were kingdoms, not any more.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-16-2019 at 10:08 AM.
  #640  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:58 AM
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My objection is not that there should be long scenes of soldiers marching (although personally I wouldn't mind) but that the world suddenly seems tiny. In previous series, the main characters had some separation, and some of the strategy was about who was where and who might be taken by surprise or whatever. And previously I could suspend disbelief that these were kingdoms, not any more.
This whole line of objection could have been so easily avoided with just a few classic film-making tropes. You know how old Hollywood films would show calendar pages flying off? Not that. But close. Two seconds of soldiers marching. One line of dialog where somebody mentions that time has passed. Cersei's belly getting bigger. Done and dusted.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:58 AM
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Sarcasm aside, it is pretty obvious that "Dragonfire can do N things" was not a deliberate writing choice. They just thought of what shots would look cool, and failed to notice any inconsistency.
I only wish that were sarcastic. Your analysis of the writers of the show borders on the ludicrous, both because who cares about your beliefs of their work habits, and also because your beliefs are almost certainly incorrect.

Discussion of the show itself is interesting. Your snide insults about the show's creators are dumb and irrelevant.
  #642  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:01 AM
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Any dragon worth his salt should be able to selective fire that stuff. It would suck if you just wanted to roast a lamb or a Lannister for supper and instead blew up a mountainside. For that matter, if your master asked you to burn someone, you'd better not blow up the whole castle doing it. So dragons, careful with that breath!
  #643  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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...
I just don’t think the writers did anything to earn our credulity when she decided to set King’s Landing on fire even after the battle was won.

But maybe I’m taking too rosy a view. Let’s look at some of the bad stuff she did and see if it in any way foreshadows her decision to burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive

1). Killed Mirri Maz Duur - Mirri Maz Duur promised to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Instead, she brought him back as a vegetable and sacrificed Daenerys’s unborn child to do it, knowing it would leave her barren. All this after Daenerys has done her best to protect her. Don’t tell me that bitch didn’t have it coming.

2). She wasn’t visibly upset when Drogo killed Viserys - Well, given that Viserys had sexually and emotionally abused her since childhood and forced her to marry Khal Drogo, saying ”I’d let his whole tribe fuck you, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that what it takes”, I don’t think I’m being overly charitable if I forgive her for not crying salty tears into her wine cup when Drogo got rid of him, especially since he’d threatened to cut her baby out of her literally two minutes earlier.

3). She burned the Warlocks in the House of the Undying - Well, they had stolen her dragons and were actively trying to kill her.

4). She shut Xaro Xoan Daxos and Doreah in the vault and left them to die - They’d murdered Irri and Jhiqui and stolen her dragons. Again, they got theirs.

5). She burned the slavers at Astapor - Big deal. They were slavers who made their soldiers kill babies as part of their “training”.

6). She crucified the Wise Masters of Meereen - Again. Big deal. They’d crucified like a hundred and fifty innocent children just to try and scare her off. And yeah, not all of them “voted for it”, but who gives a shit? Even the best of them were still slavers.

7). She burned Vaes Dothrak - The Khals were planning to keep her locked up in Vaes Dothrak for the rest of her life just because she used to be married to Khal Drogo. Was she supposed to just sit there and take it. I imagine if Jon Snow was being held captive somewhere and could only escape by killing a few people he’d probably do that too. Besides, they’re Dothraki. They only respect strength. The children of King’s Landing? Not so much.

8). She burned the ships in Slaver’s Bay - Yeah, the ships which were throwing fire balls Meereen at the time.

9). She burned tens of thousands of innocent children alive. Even after the battle was won. Even though she had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. And let’s not forget that this wasn’t just one errant attack on one group of civilians. No. She went all over the city, burning street after street after crowded street for a good half an hour!

One of these things is not like the others.

For me to believe that this massacre was within the scope of Daenerys’ character, I would’ve needed to see evidence of real cruelty beforehand. None of her past actions remotely qualify. They were all either responses to cruelty or they were directed solely at people who seriously deserved it, or both. Yeah, she talked a lot of shit about burning cities, but she was also pretty easily talked out of it as well, which suggested to me as a viewer that it was just that; talk.

I’m genuinely pissed off at the writers for handling her “Mad Queen” turn so sloppily. It’s like if Walter White had gone straight from killing Tuco to arranging the prison massacre with nothing in between. If Daenerys was always destined to ‘Break Bad’ they should’ve been a lot more nuanced with her character work before having her go apeshit with one week to go.

You forgot a big one between 8 and 9. Not to mention all the times she started ranting about burning cities to dust and Jorah, Tyrion, or whoever managed to calm her down and convince her to try another way...but the step you're missing between 8 and 9 is burning the Tarlys, after they surrendered. For the crime of not pledging fealty. Surely they could be taken prisoner instead? Nope, she wanted to make a clear and terrifying example. She was advised against it, but did it anyway. That was a big moment, the critical step in the very process you say you wanted to see, but you forgot about it or omit it. Were they innocent? I guess not, they did fight her, but it's war. When it came down to it, though, they surrendered and were disarmed. The battle was over.

Sure, it's another step further to start burning civilians, but there was there clear dialogue indicating she blamed them for "supporting" Cersei (which clearly doesn't make sense, but she's rationalizing at that point), AND the whole thing about progression is that there's always a next step that's "more" than the last. Walt's prison thing didn't come directly after 8-Ball (?) or Tuco, but it was far beyond anything he'd personally done to that point.
  #644  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:16 AM
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You forgot a big one between 8 and 9. Not to mention all the times she started ranting about burning cities to dust and Jorah, Tyrion, or whoever managed to calm her down and convince her to try another way...
Yeah, I don't quite understand the "I don't care what she said!" mentality. If somebody says they want to shoot up a place, maybe they're shit talking. If they buy a gun, that's definitely beyond shit talking and you better take them fucking seriously. She's said she wanted to burn cities to the ground, and she had the means to do so. It would be idiotic not to take her seriously, which is why they talked her down in the first place. Sure, you can make a "Good Dany/Bad Dany" list, but there is no reason to believe she wouldn't have burned the cities to the ground if everyone around her was a yes-man.

People criticized Trump because of the "Fire and Fury" comments, but he did that publicly and could be construed as empty threats designed to intimidate a weaker power. Most of the comments Dany has made were behind closed doors to people she liked. Much less reason to be lying.

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-16-2019 at 11:17 AM.
  #645  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:22 AM
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I thought this was telling, too. She executed someone without trial for the crime of executing someone without trial. It was played off as "law and order" but it was anything but. It was "obey me or die".
I haven't re-watched that but my impression from reading stuffs was that he was completely open and unabashed about what he had done. He had "plead guilty", so to speak. Trials determine guilt, so there's no need for one when the guy cops to it. Only sentencing remains.

...I guess I'm still in "defend Dany" mode, still looking for circumstances that clearly tilt in her favor. Still defending my previous impression of her.

But given the fact that she's genuinely on record having torched a guy who didn't do anything, I need to start re-evaluating all these other things. In fact, I'm just now beginning to wonder if one of the reasons that I found all that Meereen stuff so tedious was that Dany was acting in ways that didn't "fit" how I saw the character, so I kind of blew off the whole plot line rather than taking the effort to change my impressions of her. I mean, I don't want to be too hard on myself. That stuff was still suuuuuuper boring. But it was trying to convey nuances about the character that I didn't pick up on. It'll be worth paying more attention to all that if I eventually re-watch the whole thing from the beginning.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:31 AM
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I will say that Mereen was on par with Dorne in terms of the most boring parts of the show for me, so you're not alone there.

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Any dragon worth his salt should be able to selective fire that stuff. It would suck if you just wanted to roast a lamb or a Lannister for supper and instead blew up a mountainside. For that matter, if your master asked you to burn someone, you'd better not blow up the whole castle doing it. So dragons, careful with that breath!
Ha!

You know what, that actually seems fair to me. Call me crazy, but this makes me feel better about how sometimes dragonbreath just burns and sometimes it appears to hit with the force of a literal cannonball.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 05-16-2019 at 11:33 AM.
  #647  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:37 AM
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I will say that Mereen was on par with Dorne in terms of the most boring parts of the show for me, so you're not alone there.

Ha!

You know what, that actually seems fair to me. Call me crazy, but this makes me feel better about how sometimes dragonbreath just burns and sometimes it appears to hit with the force of a literal cannonball.
Clearly there's a knob on the dragon's back with settings for "Execute by frying/Melt Stone/Blow Up Stone" settings. "Dracarys" is just the start button.
  #648  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:41 AM
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I haven't re-watched that but my impression from reading stuffs was that he was completely open and unabashed about what he had done. He had "plead guilty", so to speak. Trials determine guilt, so there's no need for one when the guy cops to it. Only sentencing remains.

...I guess I'm still in "defend Dany" mode, still looking for circumstances that clearly tilt in her favor. Still defending my previous impression of her.

But given the fact that she's genuinely on record having torched a guy who didn't do anything, I need to start re-evaluating all these other things. In fact, I'm just now beginning to wonder if one of the reasons that I found all that Meereen stuff so tedious was that Dany was acting in ways that didn't "fit" how I saw the character, so I kind of blew off the whole plot line rather than taking the effort to change my impressions of her. I mean, I don't want to be too hard on myself. That stuff was still suuuuuuper boring. But it was trying to convey nuances about the character that I didn't pick up on. It'll be worth paying more attention to all that if I eventually re-watch the whole thing from the beginning.
I think you can still have portions of your previous impression of her. I mean, she did free tens of thousands of slaves. She did put her ambitions on pause to help the North. Those are noble things. There is a a pretty large caveat to that though, which I am very grateful for. Dany being pure white and her arc being from the lonely outcast to the destined ruler of the seven kingdoms is a played out and boring story.
  #649  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:57 AM
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That stuff was still suuuuuuper boring. But it was trying to convey nuances about the character that I didn't pick up on. It'll be worth paying more attention to all that if I eventually re-watch the whole thing from the beginning.
Yeah, another thing I remember is Daario or Tyrion or somebody telling her "You know, Meereen is going to shit, maybe you should stick around here and learn how to rule a little better before invading Westeros?" And she seemed okay with that idea until the fighting pits/dragon ride/Dothraki kidnapping situation, and then she came back and basically said "screw that, let's nuke these slavers, leave a bloodthirsty mercenary in charge of the whole region, and high tail it to the pointy chair! It's mah destiny!!!".

So even then you could see that the "right thing" took a back seat to her ambition, especially right after she underwent some personal trauma which roused her anger.
  #650  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:01 PM
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This is the kind of thing I couldn't possibly give less of a wet fart about...Character consistency is far more important to me, so I care more about whether Dany etc. is acting in a way consistent with her character. I think she is, but I understand folks disagree...Yeah, there's some ambiguity in her motives: is she in barbarian fury? Is she spiteful as hell? Is she following through on a calculated plan to shore up her support? There's evidence for each possibility, and it's worth discussing. I appreciate this sort of ambiguity in stories.

Others don't, that's fine, but it's a matter of taste, not a matter of artistic failure.
I appreciate you putting into words what I hadn't quite been able to express, both on the relative unimportance of stuff like time consistency, and the value in ambiguity. If the discussion of a character's actions is "why the hell did she do that? That makes no sense," then that's a flaw. But when the discussion is "was the primary reason for her actions A, B, or C," and there is disagreement among viewers, then that is a major plus for me. Holder a viewer by the hand and leading them to the one correct interpretation is much easier than giving them some reasonable conflicting interpretations and letting them decide on their own. I find the latter more enjoyable and I appreciate writers who can do that well.

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The main point of those journeys was character development, not getting from point A to point B. The incidents that happened en route were the reason for them, not the destination. Those characters have all been developed as far as they're going to be at this point, so there's now point in such wanderings. At this point in the story, I don't really care about whether they had a hard time crossing the Trident or where the Dothraki found grazing for their horses.

I agree they could have done a better job giving a sense of how long travel times were, but it's not really essential to the story and doesn't bother me that much.
Right. The lack of consistency last season and this one in how long it takes for things to happen is admittedly poor. It's not just not showing the passing of time, it's that time passes at different rates for different characters. This is definitely a flaw.

But I can willingly ignore it because the alternative is worse. When story threads are going in different directions, it's easy to maintain consistency between them. When everything needs to be concluded and all the threads need to converge at the same place and time, this becomes difficult to impossible. It's not a matter of the writers caring less now than previously; it's a completely different challenge.

For the sake of moving the story toward the conclusion, I'm glad they sacrificed that consistency for the sake of the characters and impactful scenes. (And if it really bothers you that there weren't trees near the gate of King's Landing, or that Cersei didn't have a bigger stomach, just tell yourself a wizard did it.)
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