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  #51  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:53 PM
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So, lets say Jon or Arya or whoever kills Dany next episode. The Unsullied + Dothraki are the most powerful force in the Seven Kingdoms (probably?). Do they somehow die too? Fuck off back to Essos?
  #52  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:54 PM
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I knew there was a much less than zero probability of what happened happening, but I really did not think that would happen.
  #53  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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"Hundreds will die!"
"Thousands."

Dany: "Nahh...you don't even have to hold my beer. Drogan comes with a drink holder."
  #54  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:00 PM
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I love how loyal Qyburn actually was, Cersei actually looked sad when he died. And that moment when she allows him to take her hand and lead her away was rather sweet.
  #55  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:02 PM
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Knowing what Cersei's done, killing that love is the obvious sensical thing.
Nah. People love terrible people all the time, even when they know they shouldn't. TBH, I actually preferred it this way than some pat redemption character arc.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 05-12-2019 at 10:03 PM.
  #56  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:04 PM
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I bet there are a lot of moms really regretting naming their kid Khaleesi right about now.
  #57  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:06 PM
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Towards the end there Dany was pretty indiscriminate on who she was burning. Jon had to have his men retreat from the Red Keep because she burned that fucker to the ground and her Dorthraki troops were supposedly in there.
  #58  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:08 PM
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Loved the last bit from Previously, on Game of Thrones where Mad Dany had all those voices in her head. Recaps aren't usually that creative.

If Jaime and Cersei are dead, as I suspect they are, I'm pissed. Cersei needed killin' up close and personal. I was hoping that Jaime would snap her slender little neck. But no, he couldn't move past his twincest.

Loved Cleganebowl. And when the Hound finally told Arya Ok, kid, enough's enough!

Figured we'd see Yara, but I guess there wasn't any point.

Did Varys ever send his messages? If so, I guess everybody knows that Jon's the rightful heir now. Dragon or not, the North and the Real North will never accept Dany.

But I think Arya and Jon will take Daenerys out.

I wonder if the bursts of wildfire we saw are only to remind us about it. Good way to get rid of a bunch of worrisome Dothraki and Unsullied.
  #59  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:09 PM
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Boy that was disappointing, IMO. Great performances, production, and music, as always, but the writing was just not good. In past seasons the giant moments, when something surprising or momentous happened, it usually felt earned. It didn't feel that way to me for this episode, aside from maybe Cleganebowl. If they needed Dany to go nuts, they could have set it up much better in the moment. There was no trigger - the battle is a slaughter in her favor, and then the bells ring, and then she decides in that moment, with no discernible immediate motivating event, to burn innocents. The Euron Jaime fight was pointless, as were the Arya scenes. Arya had spent seasons and seasons deadening herself to decency and kindness, to kill without qualm, and all of a sudden she decides to be heroic to strangers. And Jaime spends seasons upon seasons showing an evolution towards decency, and he abandons all of that, even his concern for innocent lives, to die with Cersei.

Very disappointing writing, IMO.
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  #60  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:11 PM
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You know, if your entire intent in life is to sit on the Iron Throne, burying it under a hundred feet of fused rubble is not the brightest decision.
  #61  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:15 PM
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Eh, Arya kept Needle, saved the actress, and abandoned the Faceless Man life because she didn't abandon all decency.
  #62  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:16 PM
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Well that was ... er ... something. I guess Dany didn't need armies after all. At least it was visually stunning.

I am not rooting for anyone at this point. All the survivors are either killers obsessed with revenge (Dany, Arya) or incompetent bozos (Jon, Tyrion). Maybe Sansa should be in charge? She seems to have her act together.
  #63  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:18 PM
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So Jaime got stabbed in the guts twice and walks away, but Euron gets stabbed in the gut once and he's lights out?

And I guess Euron was wrong. He didn't kill Jaime, Danaerys did.
  #64  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:19 PM
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Arya had spent seasons and seasons deadening herself to decency and kindness, to kill without qualm, and all of a sudden she decides to be heroic to strangers.
I know people keep saying this but I don't get it. Right before she left Bravos, she showed that she couldn't kill her basic decency and kindness, especially after she was reminded again of who she was. She wouldn't kill the actress who was kind to her which is what caused her to have to fight for her life to be able to leave the Faceless Men. She almost sacrificed her life for that stranger.

She is a very skilled killer but when did she kill when not protecting herself, revenging wrongs done to her family by the people who were very active in that wrong (Freys), or in the case of mercy (the sick girl at the well)? She couldn't bring herself to kill the Hound even when he begged her to.
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  #65  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:20 PM
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Well that was ... er ... something. I guess Dany didn't need armies after all. At least it was visually stunning.

I am not rooting for anyone at this point. All the survivors are either killers obsessed with revenge (Dany, Arya) or incompetent bozos (Jon, Tyrion). Maybe Sansa should be in charge? She seems to have her act together.
I actually could see Sansa' come out on top. Whoever kills Dany probably isn't going to live to tell about it.
  #66  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:21 PM
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I know people keep saying this but I don't get it. Right before she left Bravos, she showed that she couldn't kill her basic decency and kindness, especially after she was reminded again of who she was. She wouldn't kill the actress who was kind to her which is what caused her to have to fight for her life to be able to leave the Faceless Men. She almost sacrificed her life for that stranger.



She is a very skilled killer but when did she kill when not protecting herself, revenging wrongs done to her family by the people who were very active in that wrong (Freys), or in the case of mercy (the sick girl at the well)? She couldn't bring herself to kill the Hound even when he begged her to.
She killed dozens at the Twins, including servants. You're right that she maybe had a shred of decency in her, and she obviously loved her family, but the sequence seemed pointless to me. I didn't think it added anything at all to the story, as well as not really being in line with her character (also, that she was stumbling and being trampled by civilians... After handling dozens of wights and the Night King) . IMO, if course.
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  #67  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:23 PM
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Well that was ... er ... something. I guess Dany didn't need armies after all. At least it was visually stunning.
Could have used a little less waiting for the bells to ring.

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I am not rooting for anyone at this point. All the survivors are either killers obsessed with revenge (Dany, Arya) or incompetent bozos (Jon, Tyrion).
I think Arya got her humanity back this episode. She's somewhat still the girl who wouldn't let the Hound murder innocent people.

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Maybe Sansa should be in charge? She seems to have her act together.
Sansa's got her shit in one sock, but she's playing the great game. She'd be a good ruler, but her name wouldn't go down in myth like Jon's or Tyrion's would. Back in the days of the Crow / Dwarf King....
  #68  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:27 PM
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She killed dozens at the Twins, including servants.
She didn't kill the servants.
  #69  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:29 PM
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Is it too late to retcon episode three and let the zombies win?
  #70  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:30 PM
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Do you think that if Jon had taken one for the team and had sex with his aunt one last time, he could have saved about a million people?
  #71  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:31 PM
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She killed dozens at the Twins, including servants. You're right that she maybe had a shred of decency in her, and she obviously loved her family, but the sequence seemed pointless to me. I didn't think it added anything at all to the story, as well as not really being in line with her character (also, that she was stumbling and being trampled by civilians... After handling dozens of wights and the Night King) . IMO, if course.
I was under the impression only the Freys and their henchmen were given the wine. She even made sure his young wife didn't drink it.

Frey even commented she "wasn't one of mine" so she didn't kill one of his servants to get her face. Maybe she did have to fight her way in and an innocent servant died but I don't remember that shown on screen and we don't know the story of the girl whose face she wore. I'm not saying there might not have been incidental kills but she's never been shown cold-blooded killing an innocent on screen as far as I can remember. I remember her trying to prevent the Hound doing that a few times.
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  #72  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:33 PM
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Well that was ... er ... something. I guess Dany didn't need armies after all. At least it was visually stunning.

I am not rooting for anyone at this point. All the survivors are either killers obsessed with revenge (Dany, Arya) or incompetent bozos (Jon, Tyrion). Maybe Sansa should be in charge? She seems to have her act together.
Gendry walks into Kings Landing..."I need the deed to Stor...oh...I seem to be king."
  #73  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:35 PM
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What's the name of the episode? Dresdan from the Ground?. Times in Tokyo?

Man, maybe Virseys would have been preferable? Maybe, if had been gay? The Night King?
Seriously, Ramsey's ghost is going "ok that was a bit much
.
  #74  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:37 PM
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What's the name of the episode? Dresdan from the Ground?. Times in Tokyo?
The Bells.
  #75  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:37 PM
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What's the name of the episode? Dresdan from the Ground?. Times in Tokyo?
Looks like they're calling it The Bells.
  #76  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:37 PM
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Gotta love the patch the devs put in to nerf the ballistas.
  #77  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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1) That's how you fight a battle with overwhelming air superiority.

2) Damn!

3) DAMN!

I thought it was a great episode. No way Cersie and Jamie survive that.

I am wondering where all those Dothraki came from though, my only WTF of the episode. Also, it was a "Destroy the entire city" episode. No dialog is needed.
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:41 PM
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What's the name of the episode? Dresdan from the Ground?. Times in Tokyo?
Daenerys Stormborn, Committer of War Crimes.
  #79  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:45 PM
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"I'll pick 'Burn city' from the dialogue tree.....did I save game?"
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Old 05-12-2019, 10:45 PM
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When the grief wears off, will Grey Worm be ashamed?
  #81  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:52 PM
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Varys last thoughts probably were I knew every secret and the one I didn’t, was that Jon was not Ned Starks but Rhaeghars bastard..
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:01 PM
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Cept for Bronn, he backed the winner for no reason now that Jamie is dead and Tyrion probably in serious trouble.
Probably, but not necessarily. The Unsullied he ordered away may not have told anyone (unlikely, granted) and maybe dead, so the trail to him could be cold.

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Wonder how the scorpions went from super fast firing and deadly to slow loading and useless.
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Gotta love the patch the devs put in to nerf the ballistas.
The scorpions never hit a dragon that was aware of them and unwounded. Rhaegal was likely hit from multiple ships (the whole fleet was armed with them), so reload time wasn't an issue there.
  #83  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:04 PM
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1) That's how you fight a battle with overwhelming air superiority.

2) Damn!

3) DAMN!

I thought it was a great episode. No way Cersie and Jamie survive that.

I am wondering where all those Dothraki came from though, my only WTF of the episode. Also, it was a "Destroy the entire city" episode. No dialog is needed.
It didnít look like that many Dothraki, presumably a small amount survived the charge on the Dead, after all Ghost survived and he was at the front with them.
  #84  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:15 PM
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Was I expected the writers had a story defined and it didnt matter how it was told.
So this episode we have a dragon with super plot armor. There was no need for troops or Jon or anything.

To be honest I forgot why Cleghorne hated his brother so the fight altough interesting seemed empty to me. No point whatsoever to it.
Arya was just a waste of time, unless it was a prep for next episode when she kills Danny or tries to after seeing all the carnage... but it feels out of character to me, why would she care what happened to KL after what she endured when she was there?

Question, if Danny is killed next episode as we all expect to happen, what happens to the Dragon? Will it fly away into the sunset? Will he just let himself get killed now that he lost the plot armour, or it just kill everybody after seeing Danny dead??

Was annoyed with Jaime comes about Euron and how the battle unfolds... He gets stabbed twice and hes fine all the way to meet Cersei.
Cersei death left me wishing for a more closer encounter... Arya being the one facing her and dealing with her would have been a better resolution for both Cersei and Arya arcs imo.

I think now that the best finale for this show is for Danny to kill Jon to eliminate the threat of the throne and finish the series like it started, the North (Sansa) against KL (Danny).
That would be a nice dark twist to this series.
  #85  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:16 PM
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I think the reason Dany went berserk is someone messed up her Starbucks order in the last episode. They brought her a mochachino instead of a latte.
  #86  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:21 PM
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I liked it pretty well. But that was how I felt about the last episode, before my son talked me out of it. Speaking of whom, he had to work and hasn’t seen it yet. But he texted me on his break:


Quote:
As long as they don't butcher Daenerys' or Jaime's character arcs with stupid bullshit that doesnt make sense, like making Dany turn evil and Jaime go back to Cersei, I think I'll like it

Uh oh.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:33 PM
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I think it's pretty clear that Arya is destined to kill Dany from all of the signals in this episode. I don't think the people of Westeros would accept Jon/Aegon Targaryen after his reputation has been sullied through his association with the Mad Queen. I certainly am disappointed in him. He's a bit of a wimp - there are other principles more important than blind loyalty. I'm interested in how the show will resolve this. I hope Tyrion makes himself scarce instead of offering himself up to be slaughtered. Please go into hiding, Tyrion! I want to hear Dany's explanation, however crazy, for killing everyone after the King's Landing surrender. She could have just gone straight for the Red Keep and spared everyone else. It makes no sense - and how was she avoiding hitting her own troops?

And why did Bran end up being so useless? He had this grand story arc that ended in a whimper.

All that being said, I really do appreciate the subtle way the show showed Dany's cruel streak from the very beginning of her story arc through some of her morally murky choices but led us to ignore it through her other "good deeds". Excellent job!

Last edited by Rusalka; 05-12-2019 at 11:37 PM.
  #88  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:34 PM
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I liked it pretty well. But that was how I felt about the last episode, before my son talked me out of it. Speaking of whom, he had to work and hasnít seen it yet. But he texted me on his break:





Uh oh.
Jaimes made perfect sense to anyone who has been in a toxic, incestuous relationship with crazy.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:35 PM
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I think it's pretty clear that Arya is destined to kill Dany from all of the signals in this episode. I don't think the people of Westeros would accept Jon/Aegon Targaryen after his reputation has been sullied through his association with the Mad Queen. I certainly am disappointed in him. He's a bit of a wimp - there are other principles more important than blind loyalty. I'm interested in how the show will resolve this. I hope Tyrion makes himself scarce instead of offering himself up to be slaughtered. Please go into hiding, Tyrion! I want to hear Dany's explanation, however crazy, for killing everyone after the King's Landing surrender. She could have just gone straight for the Red Keep and spared everyone else. It makes no sense - and how was she avoiding hitting her own troops?

And why did Bran end up being so useless? He had this grand story arc that ended in a whimper.
Disappointed in Jon? Tyrion? Plan worked perfectly until Dany went off the rails.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:44 PM
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The most logical resolution for the Iron Throne question, is that Westeros just reverts back to 7 kingdoms. Clearly Daenerys will not rule in the end.
  #91  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:45 PM
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This was a great episode, in my opinion.

I liked the descent of Daeneris. She was right - she was never going to be loved by the people like Jon would be, and everyone will know Jon has the better claim. So now she either has to kill him, which would cause her to instantly lose the North entirely, or she has to surrender the throne, and she can't do that. Not the Mother of Dragons.

Then Jon rejects her because, well, Auntie. So now she can't even marry the king. But she was trying to hang on and try one more time to do the right thing. But I totally believed the moment she decided to go all rampagey - she was in a lust for battle, she was on the verge of being able to kill Cercei in the most satisfying way, and.... they surrender?? Suddenly she's not going to get her revenge, she's not going to be queen, and basically she's screwed. So she decided, "burn them all". She even told Jon her only option left was to rule by fear. She did NOT want a surrender.

To me, that's a pretty realistic arc for a supposed saviour to go through, especially considering the previous trials she's faced. So she snapped.

I'm okay with Jame, Euron and Cercei's little love triangle ending the way it did. It was the most tropey part of the episode, with Euron magically surviving and magically coming ashore in the exact spot Jamie is at. And of course they have a fight to the death and Jamie wins after it looks like it's all over. Then the power of love drives him to get up and will his body not to die for as long as the plot demands it. And I did like the fact that they didn't go for any of the pat Cercei deaths that fans were expecting and saying, "Y'know, when a Dragon is blowing everything up, you can expect things to fall on people and kill them."

So it turns out that Arya's whole arc takes her to King's landing for no other reason than to be there to watch the horror laid down by Daeneris. So I don't think that's the end of it, because Daeneris likely just made the list.

I also was wondering just how Daeneris was going to neutralize the threat of the scorpions, but it just turned out that they were actually pretty lousy weapons. And I actually like that - Euron got a lucky hit on Rheagol, and then hit a wounded dragon again, which gave him a serious sense of overconfidence about the value of those things against a healthy dragon that is aware of the threat . It turns out it's really hard to hit one of those things.

And then there's air superiority. Once the scorpions are gone, one dragon is all you need.

So now the question is where we go from here. How does Daeneris try to rule? Or does she? Maybe she flies off on Drogon back to Essor, having had her fill of those hateful, ungrateful Westerosi. She'll go back to Mereen and marry what's-his-name who's looking after it for her.

Not likely. More likely, she's going to go back with Drogon leering over her shoulder and start ruling by fear, and newly evil Greyworm will be at her side. As long as it's really Greyworm.

And what of Tyrion? Now he has to live with the fact that he ratted out the one guy trying to save the people from a madwoman. His track record for good decision-making this season is just about zero. I honestly would not be surprised if he bites it in the next episode. But I would be less surprised if he wound up either as Hand to King Aegon Targaryan Snow, or sitting on the throne himself if Daeneris kills Jon or Jon says "bugger this" and goes North to rebuild the Night's Watch or something. Because if he really doesn't want to rule, he can just take the black, right? For that matter, which didn't he offer that as an option for Daeneris to maintain her status as queen? If you take the blank, you surrender all claims to land or royalty or anything.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:46 PM
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The most logical resolution for the Iron Throne question, is that Westeros just reverts back to 7 kingdoms. Clearly Daenerys will not rule in the end.
I just said the same thing. Even if Jon somehow kills Dany next ep or Arya does...Jon isnt going to want to rule!! Rule what?? I'd think he'd go back home. There's no one left to stop the North from being independent if Dany is gone.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:49 PM
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This was a great episode, in my opinion.

I liked the descent of Daeneris. She was right - she was never going to be loved by the people like Jon would be, and everyone will know Jon has the better claim. So now she either has to kill him, which would cause her to instantly lose the North entirely, or she has to surrender the throne, and she can't do that. Not the Mother of Dragons.

Then Jon rejects her because, well, Auntie. So now she can't even marry the king. But she was trying to hang on and try one more time to do the right thing. But I totally believed the moment she decided to go all rampagey - she was in a lust for battle, she was on the verge of being able to kill Cercei in the most satisfying way, and.... they surrender?? Suddenly she's not going to get her revenge, she's not going to be queen, and basically she's screwed. So she decided, "burn them all". She even told Jon her only option left was to rule by fear. She did NOT want a surrender.

To me, that's a pretty realistic arc for a supposed saviour to go through, especially considering the previous trials she's faced. So she snapped.

I'm okay with Jame, Euron and Cercei's little love triangle ending the way it did. It was the most tropey part of the episode, with Euron magically surviving and magically coming ashore in the exact spot Jamie is at. And of course they have a fight to the death and Jamie wins after it looks like it's all over. Then the power of love drives him to get up and will his body not to die for as long as the plot demands it. And I did like the fact that they didn't go for any of the pat Cercei deaths that fans were expecting and saying, "Y'know, when a Dragon is blowing everything up, you can expect things to fall on people and kill them."

So it turns out that Arya's whole arc takes her to King's landing for no other reason than to be there to watch the horror laid down by Daeneris. So I don't think that's the end of it, because Daeneris likely just made the list.

I also was wondering just how Daeneris was going to neutralize the threat of the scorpions, but it just turned out that they were actually pretty lousy weapons. And I actually like that - Euron got a lucky hit on Rheagol, and then hit a wounded dragon again, which gave him a serious sense of overconfidence about the value of those things against a healthy dragon that is aware of the threat . It turns out it's really hard to hit one of those things.

And then there's air superiority. Once the scorpions are gone, one dragon is all you need.

So now the question is where we go from here. How does Daeneris try to rule? Or does she? Maybe she flies off on Drogon back to Essor, having had her fill of those hateful, ungrateful Westerosi. She'll go back to Mereen and marry what's-his-name who's looking after it for her.

Not likely. More likely, she's going to go back with Drogon leering over her shoulder and start ruling by fear, and newly evil Greyworm will be at her side. As long as it's really Greyworm.

And what of Tyrion? Now he has to live with the fact that he ratted out the one guy trying to save the people from a madwoman. His track record for good decision-making this season is just about zero. I honestly would not be surprised if he bites it in the next episode. But I would be less surprised if he wound up either as Hand to King Aegon Targaryan Snow, or sitting on the throne himself if Daeneris kills Jon or Jon says "bugger this" and goes North to rebuild the Night's Watch or something. Because if he really doesn't want to rule, he can just take the black, right? For that matter, which didn't he offer that as an option for Daeneris to maintain her status as queen? If you take the blank, you surrender all claims to land or royalty or anything.
Take the black??What black? What would a new Nights Watch be watching for exactly?
  #94  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:52 PM
Sam Stone is offline
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Also, notice again that Jon had essentially no effect on the outcome of another battle?
  #95  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:54 PM
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Take the black??What black? What would a new Nights Watch be watching for exactly?
The law is still there. No one has invalidated it. Anyway, if you want the plot to go there, you just need a scene where Bran at the end says, "It is not over. Even now, the forces of the dead begin to grow in the North. One day, they will come back."

Then Jon realizes he's needed at the wall to help rebuild the NIght's Watch and the Wall.

So it could be done.
  #96  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:09 AM
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Well, that was depressing.

I guess Ramsay Bolton had it right about the happy ending.
  #97  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:16 AM
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Tyrion and Davos are dead men if they aren't smart enough to get the hell out of there. So, Tyrion will probably stick around. Davos may think Jon can save him, though.

Really disappointed with what they did with Jaime. It just made no sense. Last episode he was happy to stay with Brienne when he was sure that Daenerys would win and Cersei would die. Then he found out she might not die, and she had put a hit on him, and he goes back to die with her? That made the scenes with Brienne nothing but fan service that meant nothing to story. That's cheap.

And Cersei really, really deserved a worse death than that.
  #98  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:34 AM
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"What you call 'the slaughter of Kings Landing', we call 'The righteous culling of the weak by our lawful Queen".
  #99  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:37 AM
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Boy that was disappointing, IMO. Great performances, production, and music, as always, but the writing was just not good. In past seasons the giant moments, when something surprising or momentous happened, it usually felt earned. It didn't feel that way to me for this episode, aside from maybe Cleganebowl. If they needed Dany to go nuts, they could have set it up much better in the moment. There was no trigger - the battle is a slaughter in her favor, and then the bells ring, and then she decides in that moment, with no discernible immediate motivating event, to burn innocents. The Euron Jaime fight was pointless, as were the Arya scenes. Arya had spent seasons and seasons deadening herself to decency and kindness, to kill without qualm, and all of a sudden she decides to be heroic to strangers. And Jaime spends seasons upon seasons showing an evolution towards decency, and he abandons all of that, even his concern for innocent lives, to die with Cersei.

Very disappointing writing, IMO.
Agreed. The Dany thing especially felt poor to me, though I'm not surprised because they've been undeservedly trying to setup the "Dany will go Mad King" plot for the last few episodes without any real justification. And it would've been so easy to have a trigger here - just have one last scorpion take a potshot at her after the bells, or something, but instead she just decides to start slaughtering innocents for no reason. Heck, they could've even just had her attack the Red Keep and accidentally set off a chain reaction of wildfire, but no, instead they had her flying over the streets frying people. So dumb and so easily fixable.

Even Cleganebowl felt a bit unearned and more just "well we know people wanted this so we made sure it happened." In terms of actual story it was completely pointless. Sandor rides south for vengeance and Gregor abandons his duty so they can fight, and they do, the end.
  #100  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:42 AM
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I should be clear I suppose that I'm not upset with Dany turning villain... it's actually something I've anticipated for awhile and sorta wanted even. I just think the writers did a really poor job of getting there and justifying it.
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