Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:35 AM
Oakminster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Surefall Glade, Antonica
Posts: 19,033
Impressions:

Overall--meh. Hated Cersei & Jamie's death. Cersei deserved to die in dragon fire, or by Arya ex Machina, or by getting fed to Rapesy Bolton's hounds, or torn apart by an angry mob.

Clegane Bowl was disappointing. The Mountain looked hokey and fake, and then the unkillable zombie gimmick became a comedy spot. As he's pulling the dagger out of his freaking skull, I'm going "It's just a flesh wound"...

Dany completed her heel turn by making war on civilians, now she has to die. I think Arya will do her, but maybe Jon, Kinda hoping she dies before she serves up dwarf flambe.....

And from our department of wild speculation, I'm calling Sansa Stark to sit on the Iron Throne....

Last edited by Oakminster; 05-13-2019 at 11:38 AM.
  #202  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:41 AM
Go_Arachnid_Laser is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
And from our department of wild speculation, I'm calling Sansa Stark to sit on the Iron Throne....
If Danereys dies and Jon Snow rejects the seat, the person with a more solid claim to the Iron Throne should be Gendry, as the only known living relative of Robert Baratheon, I think.

At least until Jon leaves some girl preggers.
  #203  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:44 AM
Gorsnak is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Saskaboom
Posts: 9,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
I was trying to figure out why the instant travel annoys me so much, and it's because the foundation of the show was slow travel.

We got almost an entire season of Arya & The Hound traveling from King's Landing to the Twins, but now between episodes whole armies can march from Winterfell to King's Landing? How long did it to take Brienne and Jaime to get to King's Landing?

If we hadn't had so many examples of it taking the better part of a season to traverse the continent, it wouldn't be so jarring to see armies (so you know they're on foot) traveling up and down the continent in between episodes or even scenes.
They aren't even giving proper lip service to the travel times at this point. I believe Jon's line was something like, "The Northern army is at the Ruby Ford. They'll be at King's Landing in two days."

The Ruby Ford is over 100 leagues from King's Landing. Maybe they walk really fast.
  #204  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:46 AM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
One thing we haven't really talked much about is the Daeneris/Jon Snow love angle - which I have found totally unbelievable from the beginning. First, there is zero chemistry between the actors. None of their romantic scenes felt really right. Second, for all the complaining about Daeneris's 'sudden' turn to the dark side (which has actually been foreshadowed throughout the entire series), the 'sudden turn' that really was unbelievable was this sudden undying love between Jon Snow and Daeneris. She's not even the type of person Jon Snow would like. She's a high-born woman seeking power. The opposite of Snow. And Jon Snow isn't the kind of man she's been attracted to either - he's more the Ser Jorah Type, destined to be Friendzoned. She likes the dashing, swashbuckling, aggressive men like Khal Drogo and Dario Neharis.

In terms of the show, they've barely been together on screen. Their whole love interest arc didn't work for me at all. But it's not a particular fault of writing or acting - just a good idea for the story, but that really didn't work for me.

Anyone else feel the same way?
  #205  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:49 AM
AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 16,046
You do realise the details of the last three episodes were leaked weeks ago?
It’s <redacted>
who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

Last edited by Chronos; 05-13-2019 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Removed spoiler
  #206  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:52 AM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsnak View Post
They aren't even giving proper lip service to the travel times at this point. I believe Jon's line was something like, "The Northern army is at the Ruby Ford. They'll be at King's Landing in two days."

The Ruby Ford is over 100 leagues from King's Landing. Maybe they walk really fast.
He said at the Trident.
  #207  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:53 AM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It would be one thing if her rage led her to shoot for the Red Keep and kill Cersei. But instead, she started torching the city, street-by-street, building-by-building. What led her to do that?
Her decision to rule by fear. She said so earlier, but we chose to hope she didn't really mean it. Nope. Her actions were right in line with Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, or the massive civilian bombing in WWII, or the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, or the countless times in history a city was razed to the ground to send a message. One way to hang onto or gain power is to terrorize the populace so they accept you without rebelling. If you can't be loved, you must be feared. And Daeneris gave a speech to Jon Snow in which she admitted that the people of Westeros would never love her.

Destroying King's landing is a really good message to the common folk and aristocracy that in the Game of Thrones, a dragon trumps all.

Daeneris has always shown herself to be willing to send such messages. Remember all the crucified people on the road to Mereen? Remember Tyrion telling the trader whose life was spared, "Go tell your people what happened here. Tell them what happens when Daeneris Stormborn and her Dragons come to town." Or something like that. And of course, the Dothraki also ruled by fear, and she was okay with that.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 05-13-2019 at 11:55 AM.
  #208  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:56 AM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post

Anyone else feel the same way?

Yes. Zero chemistry.

Totally plausible that they'd have boat sex, because they're both hot young attractive people.

But the "you're my true love!" angle doesn't play at all.
  #209  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:56 AM
Biggirl is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right here
Posts: 18,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
One thing we haven't really talked much about is the Daeneris/Jon Snow love angle - which I have found totally unbelievable from the beginning. First, there is zero chemistry between the actors. None of their romantic scenes felt really right. Second, for all the complaining about Daeneris's 'sudden' turn to the dark side (which has actually been foreshadowed throughout the entire series), the 'sudden turn' that really was unbelievable was this sudden undying love between Jon Snow and Daeneris. She's not even the type of person Jon Snow would like. She's a high-born woman seeking power. The opposite of Snow. And Jon Snow isn't the kind of man she's been attracted to either - he's more the Ser Jorah Type, destined to be Friendzoned. She likes the dashing, swashbuckling, aggressive men like Khal Drogo and Dario Neharis.

In terms of the show, they've barely been together on screen. Their whole love interest arc didn't work for me at all. But it's not a particular fault of writing or acting - just a good idea for the story, but that really didn't work for me.

Anyone else feel the same way?
Nope, I so shipped them though-- from way out in the beginning. Even hoped against the R+L=J theory just to make it so. I'm just very, very sad we didn't get more shots of Kit Harrington's glorious butt in the bargain.

And I have to say, everyone who says Dany's BurnThemAll moment is out of character/too sudden remind me of people who thought Trump was a great businessman and would be a good president. Bad character judges or not paying enough attention?
  #210  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:56 AM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
And of course, the Dothraki also ruled by fear, and she was okay with that.
Not just ok, she basically took them by force.
  #211  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:57 AM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
You do realise the details of the last three episodes were leaked weeks ago?
Its <redacted> who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.
That was from a fake script.

The real script shows
SPOILER:
Team Hot Pie for the win! He marries the Frey widow, and they do away with the office of Hand of the King in favor of a Sous-King.

Last edited by Chronos; 05-14-2019 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Removed spoiler
  #212  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:00 PM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
That was from a fake script.

The real script shows
SPOILER:
Team Hot Pie for the win! He marries the Frey widow, and they do away with the office of Hand of the King in favor of a Sous-King.
Quote revealed previous spoiler.
  #213  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:01 PM
Steve McQwark is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It would be one thing if her rage led her to shoot for the Red Keep and kill Cersei. But instead, she started torching the city, street-by-street, building-by-building. What led her to do that?
She grew up listening to Viserys tell her how Westeros had betrayed their family. As she is building her power in Essos, she is greeted as a liberator by the slaves (mostly). The only interaction we see her have with the common people in Westeros is in the North. The North loves Sansa and Jon and they treat Daenerys with distrust or indifference, not the adoration she expected and felt she deserved. She tells Jon she can rule through either love or fear. When he rejects her seduction, she says fear it is. Tyrion tells her that the people of King's Landing don't rise up against Cersei because of fear. So, she's sitting on the dragon, her bloodlust up, feeling the loss of her dragons and Jorah and Missandei, feeling rejected by everyone around her, thinking of how these are the people who revolted against her family and are not rallying to her now, so - fear it is.
  #214  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:02 PM
Oakminster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Surefall Glade, Antonica
Posts: 19,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser View Post
If Danereys dies and Jon Snow rejects the seat, the person with a more solid claim to the Iron Throne should be Gendry, as the only known living relative of Robert Baratheon, I think.

At least until Jon leaves some girl preggers.
Gendry has no army, and no real way to prove his claim. Sansa has the North, and possibly the largest relatively intact fighting force. And the Iron Throne has been claimed by force of arms since at least Robert's Rebellion.
  #215  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:07 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Gendry has no army, and no real way to prove his claim. Sansa has the North, and possibly the largest relatively intact fighting force. And the Iron Throne has been claimed by force of arms since at least Robert's Rebellion.
This. Nobody is going to "rules lawyer" their way to the Iron Throne. Last army standing wins at this point.
  #216  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:09 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
Did Daenerys actually have any right to make Gendry a non-bastard lord? If she doesn't actually consolidate her power, that all goes away, right?
  #217  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:13 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Did Daenerys actually have any right to make Gendry a non-bastard lord? If she doesn't actually consolidate her power, that all goes away, right?
As Queen certainly, as far as the future goes I assume Cersei would have told him to go fuck himself but if anyone on team Stark/Dany ends up on the throne I imagine they would respect his claim.
  #218  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:16 PM
Steve McQwark is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggirl View Post
And I have to say, everyone who says Dany's BurnThemAll moment is out of character/too sudden remind me of people who thought Trump was a great businessman and would be a good president. Bad character judges or not paying enough attention?
Part of it, I think, is what a brilliant choice Emilia Clarke is for the role. She's young and attractive, which buys her some good will, but also, from seeing her do interviews she seems bubbly and sweet. Some of that leaks through into her performance and gives Daenerys some unearned character boost.
  #219  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:16 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Gendry has no army, and no real way to prove his claim. Sansa has the North, and possibly the largest relatively intact fighting force. And the Iron Throne has been claimed by force of arms since at least Robert's Rebellion.
There's no evidence Sansa wants to be anything but Queen in the North, and she has no legitimate claim to the Iron Throne.

However, Gendry and Arya marrying would be just perfect from Sansa's standpoint - especially with Tyrion there as hand. She trusts Tyrion and Arya, and Gendry proved himself loyal in the battle against the Army of the Dead. Gendry as a figurehead in King's Landing with Tyrion and Sansa pulling the strings and Arya being the bridge between north and south makes a hell of a lot of sense.

So I am going to say that the most likely outcome is Jon Snow sitting on what's left of the Iron Throne, followed by Gendry being a figurehead king with Arya at his side. I suspect that her sudden realization that vengeance is not a healthy life choice will clear the decks for her to realize that she really does love Gendry and will go along with marrying him for the good of the realm.
  #220  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:21 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
As Queen certainly, as far as the future goes I assume Cersei would have told him to go fuck himself but if anyone on team Stark/Dany ends up on the throne I imagine they would respect his claim.
Before the destruction of King's Landing, they would have. I doubt that any of the Starks will now respect any declarations made by Mad Queen Daenerys. (But if a Stark does wind up on the throne, I'd bet that they'd re-declare Gendry.)
  #221  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:23 PM
Ellis Dee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
One thing we haven't really talked much about is the Daeneris/Jon Snow love angle [...] there is zero chemistry between the actors.

Anyone else feel the same way?
Yep. Zero chemistry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
We weren't even hearing moans of survivors, the destruction had been so complete. Only Arya's plot armor saved her.
I assume it's the same as the battle for Winterfell: Make it look like every single person (except all the named characters!) died in the battle, and then next episode reveal that instead of everyone dying, only half died. I expect a similar reveal next week.
  #222  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:23 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
All of the soldiers were killing, but wasn't it Jon's own Northmen who were doing the raping and pillaging?
  #223  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:25 PM
Oakminster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Surefall Glade, Antonica
Posts: 19,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
There's no evidence Sansa wants to be anything but Queen in the North, and she has no legitimate claim to the Iron Throne.
Sansa has never wanted anything more than to be Queen. Of everything. From the child that went off to Kings Landing to the wise leader she's become, the Iron throne has always been her goal. And Cersei had no legitimate claim to the throne, either. She just took over when Tommen failed his first flying lesson. Might makes right in Westeros.
  #224  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:28 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Sansa has never wanted anything more than to be Queen. Of everything. From the child that went off to Kings Landing to the wise leader she's become, the Iron throne has always been her goal.
I disagree. When she was a child, she wanted the idea of being queen. Now that she's grown up (and seen what being queen is like), she only wants the North for the North.
  #225  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:29 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
All of the soldiers were killing, but wasn't it Jon's own Northmen who were doing the raping and pillaging?
It was. The Unsullied were just murdering, and the Dothraki look completely different.
  #226  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:30 PM
Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,725
Game Revealed is up on YT. Fave quotes so far.

Benioff: Up til now Dubrovnik has been the stand-in for Kings Landing. The good people of Dubrovnik did not want us to destroy their city.

Emilia: (Re: Danys turn to the dark side) We all face moral conundrums. You can say 'walk away from the chocolate cake', but that doesn't mean you're going to. Actually thats not a moral conundrum. Eat as much fucking chocolate cake as you want to.
  #227  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:30 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 41,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
You do realise the details of the last three episodes were leaked weeks ago?
Really? When, where, and how do we know it's not baloney?
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #228  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:31 PM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,600
Sansa may have started the series wanting to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, but her experiences in King's Landing have probably soured those desires for good. She seems to want to simply rule in the North and leave the southron politicians to themselves (as long as they leave the North alone too).
  #229  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:32 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 33,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Arya spent seasons doing nothing but witnessing the suffering of the common people in wartime. This totally fit her arc.

And failed to accept the Faceless Man's credo of killing without remorse anyone targeted by someone paying for it.
Perhaps I overstated her coldness, but it didn't feel natural at all to me. She rides all the way down to KL -- days and days on horseback with the Hound -- and then, at the last minute, right before hell's about to break loose, she's convinced by him to abandon her quest for vengeance, and then wanders around the city aimlessly, finally sort of deciding to help people, and failing? Not only did it not feel natural to me, but I didn't see what purpose it served for the story. I don't think it told us anything new about Arya, unless it's just that she's indecisive and chose the exact wrong moment to try and abandon vengeance.
  #230  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:32 PM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
All of the soldiers were killing, but wasn't it Jon's own Northmen who were doing the raping and pillaging?
We only saw one doing it, as far as I know. I don't think it's meant to make any particular statement about Northmen in particular, but just about bloodlust and war in general, and reinforcing Jon's reaction and horror to what happened as he murdered the guy on the spot. Grey Worm gave in to bloodlust and raping and pillaging is what the Dothraki do.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-13-2019 at 12:33 PM.
  #231  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:36 PM
Sunny Daze's Avatar
Sunny Daze is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area Urban Sprawl
Posts: 11,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Really? When, where, and how do we know it's not baloney?
It did, but I'll note that multiple endings have been leaked and I believe that multiple endings were filmed.

If you really want to know, PM and I'll tell you where to look.
  #232  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:38 PM
SenorBeef is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,078
I know we don't really have a specific no leaks rule in this thread... but we're one week away from the show ending. Can we not use this thread to talk about and point to leaks? I feel like if people want to discuss the leaked ending early that could probably be its own thread.

And for fucks sake, please don't be one of those assholes who reads leaks and then tries to prove how smart you are by "predicting" the ending.
  #233  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:38 PM
zimaane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: washington, dc
Posts: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
I disagree. When she was a child, she wanted the idea of being queen. Now that she's grown up (and seen what being queen is like), she only wants the North for the North.
Early on, she wanted to be the king's wife, I think, more than she wanted to be queen. Of course, she has been thought a lot, and changed a lot.

Now, I am not so sure. She certainly seems comfortable being the queen of the North, who says she doesn't want the whole enchillada?
  #234  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:42 PM
Dale Sams is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
It was. The Unsullied were just murdering, and the Dothraki look completely different.
Well, the Unsullied arn't going to rape, and the Dothraki were set to rampage.
  #235  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:43 PM
zimaane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: washington, dc
Posts: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Perhaps I overstated her coldness, but it didn't feel natural at all to me. She rides all the way down to KL -- days and days on horseback with the Hound -- and then, at the last minute, right before hell's about to break loose, she's convinced by him to abandon her quest for vengeance, and then wanders around the city aimlessly, finally sort of deciding to help people, and failing? Not only did it not feel natural to me, but I didn't see what purpose it served for the story. I don't think it told us anything new about Arya, unless it's just that she's indecisive and chose the exact wrong moment to try and abandon vengeance.
I saw her change of heart as a reasonable reaction to the changed situation. She was well into KL before Dany went all Dracarys. It is reasonable to abandon the idea of killing someone who is almost certainly already dead.
  #236  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:47 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Perhaps I overstated her coldness, but it didn't feel natural at all to me. She rides all the way down to KL -- days and days on horseback with the Hound -- and then, at the last minute, right before hell's about to break loose, she's convinced by him to abandon her quest for vengeance, and then wanders around the city aimlessly, finally sort of deciding to help people, and failing? Not only did it not feel natural to me, but I didn't see what purpose it served for the story. I don't think it told us anything new about Arya, unless it's just that she's indecisive and chose the exact wrong moment to try and abandon vengeance.
That's why I think she's got yet another role to play, because the only purpose for her to wind up in King's Landing was so that she could see the destruction Daeneris caused up close and personal. They spent a lot of time with Arya trying to save poor women and children, only to see them die horribly.

So, here's her arc in the last episode: She goes to King's Landing with the sole purpose of killing Cersei Lannister. But once she gets there and sees the horror and destruction going on around her, something snaps and it happens when Sandor tells her sincerely not to go further because she'll die. So she finally backs down and gives up her quest to finish her list. So she tries to escape but in so doing runs across all sorts of innocent people who she tries to save and fails.

This sets her up to be perfectly motivated to kill Daeneris. And she's in the right place, and she has a horse she can use to get to Dragonstone or wherever she needs to be.

So while Arya didn't actually DO anything of import at King's Landing, her presence there was necessary for her character development.

That's the story I'm sticking to until it's proven totally wrong next week.
  #237  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:47 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakester View Post
The pale horse that Arya rides off on is the same horse that the late leader of the Golden Company was on. Very distinctive nose markings. We saw the horse get knocked down when the gates blew down behind the GC, but it must have survived.

It's GoT, they didn't re-use the same horse because they couldn't afford two horses. On the other hand, I can't see how the horse is going to do anything in the one episode that's left.

So I guess it's just an Easter egg for people who were paying attention.
I paid attention on my second watch. Like you, I looked at the nose markings. I too am wondering why they insisted so much on this horse. But indeed I can't see how it could matter.

Maybe Daenerys will make it a senator?


I watched the episode a first time just before going to work, so I didn't have time and fast forwarded quite a bit. It's even more brutal on rewatch, I had missed many scenes of devastation.

I didn't realize it the first time : Varys was trying to poison Danaerys, right?

And have we ever seen Cersei so emotional? I don't think she has ever been, even when her children died.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.

Last edited by clairobscur; 05-13-2019 at 12:48 PM.
  #238  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:48 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
I saw her change of heart as a reasonable reaction to the changed situation. She was well into KL before Dany went all Dracarys. It is reasonable to abandon the idea of killing someone who is almost certainly already dead.
Specially when you are just as likely to die as well.
  #239  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:54 PM
AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 16,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Really? When, where, and how do we know it's not baloney?
Since they have pretty much described the broadcast events as the occurred.
  #240  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:55 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 35,332
It would be nice if we dispensed with the extended discussion of possible spoilers
__________________
*I'm experimenting with ē, ēm, and ēs as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender. (I am also contemplating the spellings /m/s, /m/s, e/em/es, Ē/Ēm/Ēs, /m/s, /m/s, E/Em/Es.)
  #241  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:56 PM
DrCube is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Caseyville, IL
Posts: 7,344
Dragonstone is an island, not reachable by horse.

Speaking of Arya's horse, my wife thinks it was the same one the leader of the Golden Company was sitting on in the beginning of the battle. Did anybody else catch that, or can confirm? If so, what's the significance?
  #242  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:57 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
Early on, she wanted to be the king's wife, I think, more than she wanted to be queen. Of course, she has been thought a lot, and changed a lot.

Now, I am not so sure. She certainly seems comfortable being the queen of the North, who says she doesn't want the whole enchillada?
Because she thinks the south is full of snakes and betrayers. Everything she experienced outside of the North was horrible. The rulers were horrible, the court was full of schemers, etc. I think she learned a lot of lessons, one of them being that she belongs in the north.

The arc of her character was that she was the spoiled little rich girl who didn't want power - she wanted pageantry and gallant knights and beautiful dresses and glorious galas and all the stuff that little girls think kings and queens do. She had no time for the values of the north - stoicism, honor, hard work, etc. But then she actually wound up in the court of the king, and discovered that it's really about naked lust, raw power, scheming, backstabbing, murder, etc. Then she was repeatedly brutalized and terrified as she made her way back north, which disabused her of her childish beliefs and made her the strong woman she is now. So the irony is that the only girl in Winterfell who hated being there winds up as the Lady of Winterfell and probably Queen of the North. A perfectly fitting end to her arc.

Jon Snow's arc so far is that he's the one leader of men who never wanted to lead anyone. He just keeps stumbling into situations that elevate him more until soon he's de-facto leader of half the people in Westeros. So his arc should take him to the Iron Throne. But GRRM might have been planning a fakeout on that one. We'll have to see.
  #243  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:58 PM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 10,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Dragonstone is an island, not reachable by horse.

Speaking of Arya's horse, my wife thinks it was the same one the leader of the Golden Company was sitting on in the beginning of the battle. Did anybody else catch that, or can confirm? If so, what's the significance?
Someone else said so earlier in the thread also, no idea of the significance but apparently it was the same one.
  #244  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:00 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
But he didn't though. Jamie just walked up there with everyone else. He was no more smuggled into King's Landing than Arya and the Hound were. Less so because he never actually made it in before the doors closed.
He made it into King's Landing, through the front gate with the rest of the refugees. The doors you see closing in front of him are to the Red Keep. The Hound and Arya made it in just before those doors closed.

Seems to me that if you have the city surrounded you could have kept more refugees from streaming in. It also wasn't clear which gate the refugees were coming into, since the Golden Company was in front of the main gate.
  #245  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:09 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 27,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Dragonstone is an island, not reachable by horse.
It's reachable by horse in the sense that you need a horse to get you quickly to the place you'd have to go to get out to the island. But for the show's purposes, I think showing her with a horse is explanation enough if she suddenly apears in Dragonstone. They've ignored far worse problems than, "How did Arya get across the water?" Hell, she could just kill one of the unsullied as they are transported back, take his face, and use that to travel back to the island with the soldiers. Since there are a few ways she could do it, I don't think we need an explanation.

Also, I still think the horse was provided for her by the same mysterious forces that seem to be pushing everyone. Maybe it's the faceless God, or the Lord of Light, or Bran warging into the horse. But it would be a mighty big coincidence for what is probably the only horse to survive the battle to be standing next to Arya as she wakes up, and for it to be totally calm and everything. But maybe not. Could just be a 'get this story wrapped!' shortcut.

Quote:
Speaking of Arya's horse, my wife thinks it was the same one the leader of the Golden Company was sitting on in the beginning of the battle. Did anybody else catch that, or can confirm? If so, what's the significance?
Could just be an easter egg. If there was going to be a horse there at all, you'd think it would be a Dothraki horse, since they were in King's Landing by the hundreds and at least one or two Dothraki should have been killed. I'm not sure why the dead Golden Company Commander's horse would run INTO a burning city. So that leaves open the possibility that some unseen force made it go to her.
  #246  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:12 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
I didn't realize it the first time : Varys was trying to poison Danaerys, right?
Yes. He had enlisted the kitchen girl to do it. That's why he was concerned that Danaerys wasn't eating. What I couldn't figure out was who he was writing the messages concerning Jon's parentage to, and how he was going to smuggle them out.

I first I thought that if he thought she wasn't fit to sit on the Iron Throne he should have waited until she had wiped out Cersei, but then realized that he though that it was more important to avoid burning King's Landing. But it might be dicey for Jon's troops alone to take King's Landing, not only without a dragon but without the Unsullied or the Dothraki (who might not follow Jon if Danaerys was gone).
  #247  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:15 PM
clairobscur is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Did Daenerys actually have any right to make Gendry a non-bastard lord? If she doesn't actually consolidate her power, that all goes away, right?
It has been mentioned a couple times in the series that the king could legitimize a bastard. Ramsay Bolton was legitimized this way.
__________________
S'en vai la memoria, e tornara pu.
  #248  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:19 PM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Yes. He had enlisted the kitchen girl to do it.
Was this in this episode? I don't remember seeing that.
  #249  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:22 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
It has been mentioned a couple times in the series that the king could legitimize a bastard. Ramsay Bolton was legitimized this way.
But at the time, Dany was only claiming to be queen. If she doesn't win the throne, then she was never actually queen, so all of her pronouncements carried no weight. If Arya tears off Grey Worm's face and sticks Daenerys with the pointy end before... some point, the crowning, maybe?... then nothing Dany did, including legitimizing Gendry, is binding.
  #250  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:23 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve McQwark View Post
I think this is it - her mind was made up before she got there. When she's sitting on the dragon as the bells are ringing, you could see her bloodlust was high. She was angry and exhilarated and glaring at the Red Keep where she knew Cersei was. This was Daenerys without a governor. Jorah is dead. Missandei is dead. Jon has pulled away from her. Grey Worm also wants to burn them all. So, dracarys it is.
I'm not sure she was sure in her own mind she was going to go all Blood and Fire before the battle. But I think that in the heat of the moment (pun intended) she snapped emotionally.

This was really laid out earlier in her conversation with Jon. She's given up hope that the Westerosi will ever love her, so she must rule by fear. And burning the city will certainly put fear into anyone who survives.

She's also realized, I think, that when this is all over she will have to eliminate Jon. When he doesn't reciprocate her kiss, she understands she's lost him. She no longer cares about his opinion. As long as he lives, he will be a threat to her rule, so if she takes the throne he's toast.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017