Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:31 PM
MichaelEmouse's Avatar
MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,391

How close are lobsters and cockroaches?


Watching someone eat crab legs, it struck me that if I saw a movie where a different species ate something like that, I'd be disgusted by their eating chunks of giant bugs.

So, are lobsters pretty much giant sea cockroaches in terms of anatomy, behavior and niche? Is it the same "template" affected by whether it's in air/land or sea?
  #2  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:32 PM
Lamoral's Avatar
Lamoral is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Fenario
Posts: 2,965
Can lobsters fly?
  #3  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:47 PM
cochrane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Nekkid Pueblo
Posts: 22,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamoral View Post
Can lobsters fly?
As God is my witness...
  #4  
Old 07-18-2018, 07:48 PM
GaryM's Avatar
GaryM is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: St. Louis, MO 50mi. West
Posts: 5,224
During one of his TV shows, Alton Brown showed a "family tree" indicating that lobsters are not far removed from cockroachs.
__________________
GaryM
  #5  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:03 PM
watchwolf49 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 8,499
Looks like cockroaches and lobsters are in the same phylum, Arthropoda, but are in different sub-phylums ... for comparison, both fish and humans are in the same phylum, Chordata, but different sub-phylums ...

Humans are closer to newts (four limbs) than cockroaches are to lobster (exoskeleton) ... which is to say not close at all ... IMEIO ...

But bear in mind research continues ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 07-18-2018 at 08:05 PM.
  #6  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:19 PM
Drunky Smurf is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Smurf Village.
Posts: 11,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
... IMEIO ...
What does this mean?
__________________
"Narf!" "Narf?" "Point!" "Point?" "Troz!" "Troz?" "Narf!" "Narf indeed Pinky." - Pinky and The Brain Brain Brain Brain...
  #7  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:30 PM
Leo Bloom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
...IMEIO ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
What does this mean?
Bumped.
  #8  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:49 AM
PitJ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
What does this mean?
Perhaps "I My Exhaustively Ignorant Opinion"? No offense meant but I hate these acronyms.
  #9  
Old 08-31-2018, 01:28 PM
Sailboat's Avatar
Sailboat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 12,036
One difference is a different strategy for hardening the exoskeleton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbed from Wikipedia but rerarranged and trimmed for clarity
In insects and Arachnids the main reinforcing materials are various proteins hardened by linking the fibres in processes called sclerotisation and the hardened proteins are called sclerotin.

Biomineralization occurs mainly in crustaceans. Typically the mineral crystals, mainly calcium carbonate, are deposited among the chitin and protein molecules. The crystals and fibres interpenetrate and reinforce each other, the minerals supplying the hardness and resistance to compression, while the chitin supplies the tensile strength.
This chemical difference in their outer coverings goes way back in the split between these subgroups.
  #10  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:20 PM
DavidwithanR is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,995
In my mind, the classifications are different - cockroaches and lobsters and snakes all belong to Ickicreepidae, and puppies and bunnies belong to Cuteidae. I think this type of personal classification system is the only reason anybody thinks cockroaches and lobsters have similarities.
  #11  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:53 PM
watchwolf49 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 8,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
In my mind, the classifications are different - cockroaches and lobsters and snakes all belong to Ickicreepidae, and puppies and bunnies belong to Cuteidae. I think this type of personal classification system is the only reason anybody thinks cockroaches and lobsters have similarities.
Lions and tigers are in Runawaydea?
  #12  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:20 PM
bibliophage is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Maine
Posts: 10,727
You mention crabs. It may surprise you that lobsters are more closely related to cockroaches and other insects than they are to some marines animals that are called crabs. Insects and crustaceans (including most marine species called "crab") are members of the same clade: Pancrustacea. Horseshoe crabs, on the other hand, are in a different clade (Chelicerata) along with the arachnids (spiders, scorpions, ticks, mites, etc.)
  #13  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:25 PM
DavidwithanR is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
Lions and tigers are in Runawaydea?
Exactly.
  #14  
Old 07-19-2018, 07:41 AM
Arkcon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
In my mind, the classifications are different - cockroaches and lobsters and snakes all belong to Ickicreepidae, and puppies and bunnies belong to Cuteidae. I think this type of personal classification system is the only reason anybody thinks cockroaches and lobsters have similarities.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
Lions and tigers are in Runawaydea?
Oh, this is a fun way to highlight how arbitrary our classifications are. Let me put Scarlett Johansson in Ummwannaseehernakedidea, and myself in EwnotevenifIwasdrunkidea, two phyla that most scientists believe are more distantly separated than mammals and viruses.

Last edited by Arkcon; 07-19-2018 at 07:41 AM. Reason: invert order for correct paraellisim
  #15  
Old 07-22-2018, 09:42 AM
puzzlegal's Avatar
puzzlegal is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidwithanR View Post
In my mind, the classifications are different - cockroaches and lobsters and snakes all belong to Ickicreepidae, and puppies and bunnies belong to Cuteidae. I think this type of personal classification system is the only reason anybody thinks cockroaches and lobsters have similarities.
speaking as someone who has eaten insects on purpose (grasshoppers and ants) lobsters and crabs are in Smelltastydae and Cockroaches and Japanese Beetles are in Smellnastydae. It's a surprisingly important distinction.
  #16  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:43 PM
Lucas Jackson's Avatar
Lucas Jackson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
Watching someone eat crab legs, it struck me that if I saw a movie where a different species ate something like that, I'd be disgusted by their eating chunks of giant bugs.

So, are lobsters pretty much giant sea cockroaches in terms of anatomy, behavior and niche? Is it the same "template" affected by whether it's in air/land or sea?
Thatís a big leap.
  #17  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:14 PM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 29,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
So, are lobsters pretty much giant sea cockroaches in terms of anatomy, behavior and niche?
No, they are not.
  #18  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:32 PM
running coach's Avatar
running coach is online now
Arms of Steel, Leg of Jello
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Riding my handcycle
Posts: 37,468
Jim Gaffigan thinks they're a giant sea scorpion.

Last edited by running coach; 07-18-2018 at 09:33 PM.
  #19  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:39 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,048
The branching point between hexapods and decapods (wherther they can beat a demigod or not) is in excess of 500 million years ago. The first tetrapods were around 400 million years ago. Therefore, cockroaches and lobsters are less closely related than humans and pteranodons.



(Study.) ('Nother study.)
  #20  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:19 PM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,939

How close are lobsters and cockroaches?


Generally, several fathoms.
  #21  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:59 PM
Leo Bloom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,508
I think that in food slang from China, where, unlike in American Chinese cooking, crabs are far more popular than lobster, the latter are referred to as "sea cockroaches."
  #22  
Old 07-19-2018, 11:11 AM
Max Torque is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Raiderville, TX
Posts: 10,972
Never forgetting, of course, that a coyote is classified as "nemesis ridiculii".

#ultrasonicusbeepusbeepus
  #23  
Old 07-19-2018, 11:17 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 41,265
Depends on the restaurant.
__________________
ed
  #24  
Old 07-19-2018, 03:47 PM
RedSwinglineOne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Silicon valley
Posts: 1,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
... I'd be disgusted by their eating chunks of giant bugs.
..., meat's meat and a man's gotta eat!
  #25  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:27 PM
Filbert is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,684
You mean genetically or in flavour?
  #26  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:38 PM
Weisshund is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,767
They are the same, in a hugely zoomed out grand view sense.
Shrimp Lobster Crab, Cockroach Spider and Grasshopper are all related, but for a common ancestor directly linking them all, you are going back mega millions of years.

But cockroach is of the insect branch of the family (which is very diverse), lobster is most definitely not.

Giant bugs though is kind of an all in the mind type of thing
Many people do eat insects, it was never put in their minds that it was some skeevy nasty thing, for other people it was.
  #27  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:57 PM
naita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 6,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weisshund View Post
They are the same, in a hugely zoomed out grand view sense.
Yes, but in that "grand view" sense humans are the same as fish.

Quote:
Shrimp Lobster Crab, Cockroach Spider and Grasshopper are all related, but for a common ancestor directly linking them all, you are going back mega millions of years.
All multi-cellular life is thought to be related less than 900 million years back, so no.
  #28  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:41 AM
Leo Bloom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filbert View Post
You mean genetically or in flavour?
Or friendship? Christmas-card-only level?
  #29  
Old 07-19-2018, 06:09 PM
TruCelt's Avatar
TruCelt is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Near Washington, DC
Posts: 11,598
During the last swarm emergence, there was talk in the local papers about whether the Cicadas are edible. One article warned that those who are allergic to shrimp are probably also allergic to cicadas.

So from an edibility standpoint, there may be less difference than taxonomy would indicate.
  #30  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:52 AM
Powers is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Posts: 1,047
Not to speak for MichaelEmouse, but he did appear to be referring to "anatomy, behavior and niche" and not genetics. Obviously, decapod crustaceans are far removed genetically from hexapod insects. But convergent evolution can bring disparate species closer to each other ecologically.

Also obviously, lobsters live in the sea while cockroaches live on land, but it still might be worth wondering if lobsters are the cockroaches of the sea. Kind of like wondering what land predator most resembles the Great White Shark in behavior and niche.


Powers &8^]
  #31  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:15 AM
Tatterdemalion is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers View Post
Kind of like wondering what land predator most resembles the Great White Shark in behavior and niche.
Cats
  #32  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:49 AM
MichaelEmouse's Avatar
MichaelEmouse is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers View Post
Not to speak for MichaelEmouse, but he did appear to be referring to "anatomy, behavior and niche" and not genetics. Obviously, decapod crustaceans are far removed genetically from hexapod insects. But convergent evolution can bring disparate species closer to each other ecologically.

Also obviously, lobsters live in the sea while cockroaches live on land, but it still might be worth wondering if lobsters are the cockroaches of the sea. Kind of like wondering what land predator most resembles the Great White Shark in behavior and niche.


Powers &8^]
You have spoken very well for me. A tyrannosaur, a tiger and a great white shark are obviously genetically different but have similarities.

For example, how similar are the nervous system of cockroaches and lobsters? What type of thing do they eat? What's their brood size? Do they have similar eye/antenna ratio?
  #33  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:05 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
You have spoken very well for me. A tyrannosaur, a tiger and a great white shark are obviously genetically different but have similarities.

For example, how similar are the nervous system of cockroaches and lobsters? What type of thing do they eat? What's their brood size? Do they have similar eye/antenna ratio?

Lobsters like to eat crabs, clams, mussels, starfish, smaller fish, and sometimes even other lobsters. While I'm sure cockroaches wouldn't mind that diet, it probably isn't a regular meal for most of them.



A lobster has 5,000 to 100,000 eggs at a time. A cockroach may lay 150 eggs in a lifetime.



The antenna/eye ratio in lobsters is 2/1 and in cockroaches 1/1.


As for nervous systems, both lobsters and cockroaches have a venrtal nerve chord instead of dorsal as in chordates, but that is equally true for all other decapids and hexapods and in no way distinctive of lobsters and cockroaches.
  #34  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:43 AM
Ulfreida is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pangolandia
Posts: 3,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
You have spoken very well for me. A tyrannosaur, a tiger and a great white shark are obviously genetically different but have similarities.

For example, how similar are the nervous system of cockroaches and lobsters? What type of thing do they eat? What's their brood size? Do they have similar eye/antenna ratio?
Genetic relatedness has nothing to do with occupation of similar ecological niches.

The similarities are in niche only, in the first example.

In the example of cockroach and lobster, I doubt there is even that similarity.

The OP is apparently sparked by a completely non-scientific and irrational aversion to smaller animals with a hard carapace that scuttle, wherever they may live.

Personally I find lobsters very tasty and cockroaches utterly loathsome but I keep my subjective reactions and my knowledge of current scientific nomenclature (such as it is), quite separate. Sort of like science and religion.
  #35  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:43 AM
actualliberalnotoneofthose is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,446
Since lobsters were traditionally a food of the poor, it makes a lot of sense.
  #36  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:09 AM
Annie-Xmas is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 57,815
Mainers sometimes refer to lobsters as "cockroaches."
  #37  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:34 PM
dstarfire is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tacoma, WA; USA
Posts: 1,554
A more likely water-based cockroach analogue is shrimp. Shrimp are also tiny scavengers who feed on effluent (i.e. poo), crumbs*, and garbage**.


*or the sea-going equivalent. Picture a shark feeding: bits of flesh get flung off and fall towards the seafloor. Any bit that falls off a meal is probably lost to that diner.

** stuff left behind by other animals: corpses, abandoned shell-casings, etc. (yes, you can actually fire a shotgun underwater :P).
__________________
Dion Starfire, grammar atheist.
  #38  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:28 AM
Jackmannii's Avatar
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 32,483
I live for the day when lobsters start infesting my house.
  #39  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:39 AM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
I live for the day when lobsters start infesting my house.

You can get small ones in your lawn.
  #40  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:15 PM
Jackmannii's Avatar
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 32,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
I actually had this happen during wet seasons near Houston. It's kind of unnerving to look down the hole in your lawn and see them menacingly waving tiny pincers at you.
  #41  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:31 PM
Leo Bloom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 13,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
...

** stuff left behind by other animals: corpses, abandoned shell-casings, etc. (yes, you can actually fire a shotgun underwater :P).
I actually read this initially as a normal reference to shells cast off from molting animals.

Which I believe is true also.
  #42  
Old 07-21-2018, 03:18 PM
DavidwithanR is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
... IMEIO ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
What does this mean?
It means "I'm trying to sing Old MacDonald but I can't remember the last bit".
  #43  
Old 07-21-2018, 03:37 PM
watchwolf49 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 8,499
"In my ego inflamed opinion" ... there's not one trace of humility in any opinion I post on the internet ... no pride either ... it's all pure ego ...

Goes to show you who's the honest one here ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 07-21-2018 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Thank you for asking ...
  #44  
Old 07-22-2018, 09:32 AM
LucyInDisguise is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: High Desert Country, NV
Posts: 520
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
"In my ego inflamed opinion" ... there's not one trace of humility in any opinion I post on the internet ... no pride either ... it's all pure ego ...

Goes to show you who's the honest one here ...
Your really should update the Urban Dictionary :

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=IMEIO



Lucy
__________________
Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.

(Just for the record: She is a He ...)
  #45  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:28 AM
watchwolf49 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 8,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucyInDisguise View Post
Your really should update the Urban Dictionary :

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=IMEIO



Lucy
Way too early in the morning ... way too funny ... excuse me whilst I clean the coffee splatter off my monitor ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 07-22-2018 at 10:29 AM. Reason: ... and my keyboard ...
  #46  
Old 07-21-2018, 04:24 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,213
Cockroaches are pretty distant. But the category of things that most would call "bugs" includes crustaceans. In particular, the pill bug/roly-poly/woodlouse is a crustacean. The giant isopod is closely related. The lobster is a couple more steps away (but shares the class Malacostraca).
  #47  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:03 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Cockroaches are pretty distant. But the category of things that most would call "bugs" includes crustaceans. In particular, the pill bug/roly-poly/woodlouse is a crustacean. The giant isopod is closely related. The lobster is a couple more steps away (but shares the class Malacostraca).

Fun tangental fact: the giant isopod can live a long time without eating.
  #48  
Old 07-23-2018, 10:00 AM
Major Matt Mason is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Somewhere west of Bugtown
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
The giant isopod is closely related.
But how are giant isopods when steamed and served with drawn butter? Inquiring minds want to know.

-MMM-
  #49  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:54 AM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Matt Mason View Post
But how are giant isopods when steamed and served with drawn butter? Inquiring minds want to know.
The Japanese seem to enjoy them, as one might anticipate. However, I see no mention of garlic or butter.
  #50  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:40 PM
Smeghead is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 18,815
They used to be really close. They hung out a lot in high school and swore they'd be best friends forever. But, you know, life comes along, and they just drifted apart - nothing major happened, no hard feelings, but they just began living different lives. They keep saying they should get back together and hang out. Maybe one day they will.
__________________
"Opinions are like arms. Everybody has them, but you look like an idiot when you try to show off how strong yours are." - Miles Jupp
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017