Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-24-2019, 04:23 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,787

The Trump Impeachment Inquiry


I know we've got like a million threads about Trump's corruption, but today's news is the start of a whole new chapter (or, likely, an entire spinoff series):
Quote:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi plans to announce a formal impeachment inquiry into President Trump, a dramatic turnaround by the Democratic leader that sets up a constitutional and political clash pitting the Congress against the nation’s chief executive.

Pelosi (D-Calif.) is slated to make her announcement later on Tuesday after a closed-door meeting with her caucus, according to Democratic officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely describe private deliberations.
What should we expect in the next week or so? Will some of the folks who gave such shitty testimony earlier be recalled to give more testimony under the rules of an impeachment inquiry? Will Trump's constant claims of executive privilege be litigated?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 09-24-2019 at 04:24 PM.
  #2  
Old 09-24-2019, 04:26 PM
KidCharlemagne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,397
Even though I get that people think we have to impeach, I fear this has little chance of doing anything except getting him re-elected.
  #3  
Old 09-24-2019, 04:34 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,787
Nate Silver already has a column up. It's a pretty interesting take, including some advice for Democrats that's pretty obvious, and some that I wouldn't have expected:
Quote:
Lesson No. 1: Be narrow and specific, perhaps with a near-exclusive focus on Ukraine. For some Democrats in Congress who were nearly ready to impeach Trump over Russia, Ukraine may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. But Democrats probably shouldn’t portray it to the public that way.
...
Lesson No. 2: Don’t overpromise on details unless you can deliver. You’ll sometimes hear the sentiment that the entire Mueller Report might have been more politically damaging to Trump if it had dropped all at once instead of slowly being teased out through indictments and news accounts and investigative reports over the course of two years. That seems reasonable enough, although there’s no way to test the hypothetical. It’s also true, though, that the public’s reaction to news events — and the media’s reaction to news events, which conditions the public’s response — is often calibrated relative to “expectations.” If the expectations get too far ahead of themselves, even a relatively damaging story may land with a thud.
...
Lesson No. 3: Emphasize the threats to election integrity. As I mentioned, I suspect (though I certainly can’t prove) that some of the public’s reluctance on impeachment over Russia stemmed from the fact that Trump was still in his first term and is running for re-election. We want to decide this one for ourselves, the public may have been saying.
...
Lesson No. 4: Stay unified. As I said above, I don’t think Democratic infighting over impeachment on Russia explains all, or necessarily most, of its unpopularity with the general public. But it probably explains some of it.
...
Lesson No. 5: Work quickly and urgently. Now that they’ve seemingly decided to move forward on Ukraine, there are lots of reasons for Democrats to move fast. It will reduce the potential for public fatigue over the story, which can set in quickly for all news stories in the Trump era. And a sense of urgency could underscore some of the other themes here, e.g. that there’s an immediate threat to the integrity of the 2020 election, to national security, or both.
  #4  
Old 09-24-2019, 04:40 PM
ElvisL1ves is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 50,549
OK, but how do you address election security without making it about Russia too? Ukraine isn't scary to anybody in the US, in fact we're supposed to be on their side in the border conflict, but Russia and Putin certainly count. Trump's fealty to Putin is a far bigger deal ISTM (unless there's a lot more coming out about Ukraine), and there's the Mueller report to back it up.
  #5  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:03 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,497
Pelosi announcement in a few minutes, according to news sites.
  #6  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:07 PM
DinoR is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Will some of the folks who gave such shitty testimony earlier be recalled to give more testimony under the rules of an impeachment inquiry?
I doubt Pelosi will take an everything and the kitchen sink approach. I expect a more targeted process on Ukraine and possibly a selection of some of the most serious allegation with a good chance of being proven to a high degree of certainty. Something like the campaign finance violations for the Stormy Daniels payment probably doesn't make her focus IMO. Campaign finance violations are pretty common and not criminal unless there's knowledge it's a violation. Cohen with a law degree had a harder time claiming ignorance. Trump makes a pretty good case on a daily basis for ignorance about almost everything. A non-criminal and relatively minor offense to distract from the serious allegations is probably not something Pelosi wants in the mix. Especially when it's one that's basically played out publicly already and hasn't really changed minds. It's also probably not something that the new House members who narrowly won blue leaning districts last year want to explain to their constituents. Ukraine is finally swinging them out of silence to support impeachment. That piece is in.How much more ends up in the inquiry is the big question. I expect the breadth of the investigation is a big part of the discussion in today's caucus meeting.

We'll see about that prediction. If I'm right that means a lot of the relatively shitty testimony will be about allegations that don't end up part of the impeachment inquiry.

Quote:
Will Trump's constant claims of executive privilege be litigated?
I've been expecting that to happen eventually anyway. Especially on the NY grand jury investigation. While a state case, it might set the stage for decisions related to Congress and federal limitations.

Last edited by DinoR; 09-24-2019 at 05:08 PM.
  #7  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:10 PM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,865
Nancy Pelosi: "Today, I'm announcing the House of Representatives is moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry. I'm directing our six committees to proceed with their investigations under that umbrella ... The president must be held accountable."
  #8  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:18 PM
mjmlabs's Avatar
mjmlabs is offline
A Rather Dubious Fellow Indeed
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Last Green Valley
Posts: 732
[P.A.] Folks, gonna go ahead and have you return to your seats and strap in -- Looks like we've got a bit of a bumpy ride comin' up for ... oh, about the next 13 months. [/P.A.]

Last edited by mjmlabs; 09-24-2019 at 05:19 PM. Reason: UBB code typo
  #9  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:13 PM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,545
Impeachment proceedings is what we need, so yay.

I disagree Silver’s take that this needs to focus on Ukraine. Not only are his actions with Ukraine eerily similar to his alleged actions with Russia leading up to the election, but his attempts to obstruct justice are similar as well. Viewing the Ukraine thing in isolation means ignoring the massive elephant in the room.

Trump cheated his in way into the White House and he’s trying to cheat again. Even if it means putting our national security interests at risk.
  #10  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:26 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Trump cheated his in way into the White House and he’s trying to cheat again. Even if it means putting our national security interests at risk.
This is where you lose me. How did he cheat his way into the white house?

The Ukraine quid pro quo seems pretty damning. Claims that he cheated in 2016 seem unsubstantiated.
  #11  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:31 PM
John_Stamos'_Left_Ear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
This is where you lose me. How did he cheat his way into the white house?
Did you read the Mueller Report?
Quote:
We learned that two Trump campaign officials, campaign manager Paul Manafort and Manafort’s deputy Rick Gates, were regularly providing polling information to a Russian national whom Gates believed to be a “spy.”

We learned that, after Trump publicly called on Russia to find Hillary Clinton’s emails, he privately ordered future National Security Adviser Michael Flynn to find them. Flynn reached out to a man named Peter Smith who (apparently falsely) told a number of people that he was in contact with Russian agents.

We learned that Trump foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos attempted to arrange meetings between Trump and Putin, and that Trump personally approved Papadopoulos’s work on this front.

The report is very clear that Mueller’s investigation did not establish that the Trump campaign criminally conspired on illegal Russian election interference, or that it coordinated with Russia through either an active or tacit agreement.

But the report, combined with other publicly known facts — that Donald Trump Jr. arranged a meeting with the express purpose of obtaining Russian “dirt” on Clinton, and that Papadopoulos was offered similar dirt from a Russian agent, among others — paints a damning picture of the campaign. It was both actively seeking to cultivate a relationship with the Russian government and willing to work with it to acquire damaging information about its political opponents. That willingness included explicitly sharing information with or soliciting information from Russian operatives.

Vox
Honestly "cheating" is probably the nicest word to use when describing what the Trump campaign demonstratively did and tried to do in order to win the election.
  #12  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:55 PM
Lance Turbo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,356
Despite what you may have heard, the Mueller Report detailed a ton of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Guide to the Mueller Report’s Findings on “Collusion”
  #13  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:08 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Despite what you may have heard, the Mueller Report detailed a ton of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Guide to the Mueller Report’s Findings on “Collusion”
None of that stuff even approaches what seems to have happened with Ukraine.

That other stuff just looks like Democrats complaining that Russia helped Trump catch Hillary and the DNC with it's hand in the cookie jar. The focus is correctly directed at the DNC shenanigans and not who uncovered them.
  #14  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:44 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
This is where you lose me. How did he cheat his way into the white house?

The Ukraine quid pro quo seems pretty damning. Claims that he cheated in 2016 seem unsubstantiated.
One notes that we only ever got a Russia report and never a Saudi Arabia report.

The whole Alfa Bank / Trump Tower server communication thing seems to have been tied to Eric Prince and Eric Prince, Steve Bannon, and George Nader were meeting with Alfa and the Saudis in the Seychelles during the interval where their cellphones had all their records deleted.
  #15  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:24 PM
mjmlabs's Avatar
mjmlabs is offline
A Rather Dubious Fellow Indeed
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Last Green Valley
Posts: 732
Adam Schiff tweets that the intel community whistleblower wants to testify:

Quote:
We have been informed by the whistleblower’s counsel that their client would like to speak to our committee and has requested guidance from the Acting DNI as to how to do so.

We‘re in touch with counsel and look forward to the whistleblower’s testimony as soon as this week.
Adam Schiff (@RepAdamSchiff) September 24, 2019
__________________
Take care of yourselves, and those around you. -- Margo Timmins
  #16  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:29 PM
Patch is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In my house
Posts: 2,067
My heavily right-wing coworkers are celebrating Trump's second term of office with this news. They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
  #17  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:30 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
... They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
  #18  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:31 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,427
How does this generate more Trump voters? Were there Trump voters who were planning on staying home, but now they're going to come out and vote? I don't buy it.

Last edited by bobot; 09-24-2019 at 05:32 PM.
  #19  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:35 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,427
Oh, and by the way, how about those whistleblower concerns about Trump. Much ado about nothing, eh?
  #20  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:36 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
How does this generate more Trump voters?
12 hours ago, NPR published this story:

Quote:
The truth is — impeachment has almost never been popular. It tends to pump up the partisans in either party but has far less allure for the less politically inclined. Independent voters, it should be noted, have been especially slow to take up the impeachment cry.
I'd recommend you read it.
  #21  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:32 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
How does this generate more Trump voters? Were there Trump voters who were planning on staying home, but now they're going to come out and vote? I don't buy it.
1. The voters dont like the idea.

2. Trump will be able to point to his inevitable "Not Guilty" verdict from the senate as proof he is Not Guilty.

But this isnt Impeachment proceedings, this is a Impeachment inquiry.

As long as the House doesnt vote to indict, we're good.
  #22  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:44 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I know this may be a foreign concept to Republicans, but sometimes doing what's right for the country is more important than maneuvering for the next election. When the president allegedly leverages the power of his office to strongarm a foreign nation into digging up dirt on his political opponent, this is one of those times.
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.
  #23  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:35 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
I know this may be a foreign concept to Republicans, but sometimes doing what's right for the country is more important than maneuvering for the next election. When the president allegedly leverages the power of his office to strongarm a foreign nation into digging up dirt on his political opponent, this is one of those times.
How is a meaningless and impotent indictment "doing what's right for the country"? You are talking as if there is the slightest change trump will be removed- hint- he wont be.

4 more years of trump would be horrible.
  #24  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:47 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...n-offers-clue/

Quote:
As many who support impeachment hearings have pointed out, in early 1973, Gallup polling showed that only 19 percent of Americans supported removing President Richard M. Nixon. By the summer of 1974, when Nixon resigned, support had climbed to the high 50s — which illustrates that on impeachment, public opinion can be moved in a big way, including, presumably, on Trump.
When done for valid reasons, impeachment can tarnish a presidents reputation and reduce their popularity. If this impeachment inquiry opens up the floodgates on all Trump's crimes, it could make him less popular with independent voters.

His base will be more motivated, but they were going to vote for him anyway.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #25  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:14 PM
F. U. Shakespeare is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Baltimore or less
Posts: 4,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
When done for valid reasons, impeachment can tarnish a presidents reputation and reduce their popularity.
The bolded part times 1000.

People have been assuming that since Clinton's approval ratings went up after he was impeached, it would happen under any impeachment scenario.

The reason the public didn't turn against Clinton (like with Nixon) was because people looked at the offense and concluded it didn't merit impeachment.

How will the public react to this? We'll find out.

But I'll take any advice from Trump supporters on Democratic campaign strategy like a Hatfield telling a McCoy where to aim.
  #26  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:38 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
....


When done for valid reasons, impeachment can tarnish a presidents reputation and reduce their popularity. If this impeachment inquiry opens up the floodgates on all Trump's crimes, it could make him less popular with independent voters.
Really? It didnt for Johnson or Clinton, and those are our only two examples.

It could, if there was a chance they would listen to the proceedings on CNN- but there's no chance, so it wont.
  #27  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:30 PM
Blank Slate's Avatar
Blank Slate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I remember that the opposition party won the following election. Was that the lesson?
  #28  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:44 PM
KarlGauss's Avatar
KarlGauss is offline
Entangled
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Between pole and tropic
Posts: 8,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I used to fear that starting impeachment proceedings against Trump would, ultimately, strengthen his political standing and make re-election more likely.

But at this point, I doubt there are many who will now switch to Trump because of the outcome. His core seems pretty static. If it hasn't grown by now, it's not gonna grow much in the future.

In fact, the entire impeachment process will probably not continue interminably. It will finish way before next November. If Trump is found guilty, case closed. If the Senate doesn't convict, or proceedings are stopped before that (in fact, Mitch could refuse to hold it), it will be old news before November 2020. In today's news cycle, anything that happened more than a week ago is forgotten. People aren't gonna vote for Trump because "hey, he was found 'innocent' last year".
  #29  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:12 PM
SenorBeef is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
So that's it? We have one example of an impeachment that backfired, so impeachment is always wrong?

Clinton's impeachment backfired because it was obvious that the Republicans were just trying to create something out of nothing, playing partisan games, and trying to overreact to minor thing they found over him. So they impeached him over something everyone knew was small potatoes and basically had nothing to do with his job, and that backfired.

And now you've concluded that's all that can happen. No matter the circumstances, with a sample size of one, impeachment backfires. Doesn't matter if the president is a senile moron ruining America's standing in the world, sucking the dick of any dictator he can find, and probably actively under the control of our greatest geopolitical enemy - there can be no circumstances that would justify impeachment, because hey, you should learn "the lessons of impeachment"

It's a ridiculous comparison.

What these two impeachment proceedings will have in common is that they involved a radical bunch of tribal fanatics that will support their side no matter what. In the first case, the fanatics were determined to get Clinton for anything, no matter how minor. In this case, the fanatics believe that their guy cannot be impeached for anything, no matter how major. In both cases, it's the same toxic group that operates irrationally yet powerfully, completely wrecking any semblance of rationality in American politics.
  #30  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:36 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
... it was obvious that the Republicans were just trying to create something out of nothing, playing partisan games, and trying to overreact to minor thing they found over him. ...
This perfectly-describes a common view of what the dems have been doing to President Trump ever since he won the election.
  #31  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:01 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
I am shocked that you are not troubled by that Ukraine conversation. I laughed as hard as you did when the Democrats tried to make hay out of the suspicion that the Russians handed Trump damning evidence of how the DNC was playing favorites; helping Hillary cheat during the primary debates; transcripts of Hillary saying stuff that contradicts her comments regarding banks and immigration, etc.

But this is apparent quid pro quo in implementing foreign policy. I thought you would draw the line there.

That seems to be in a different category than lying under oath about a blowjob.
  #32  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:04 PM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 35,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
But this is apparent quid pro quo in implementing foreign policy. I thought you would draw the line there.
NB: you quoted a post from two months ago. Coincidentally, he dropped out of this thread when the administration admitted there was quid pro quo.
  #33  
Old 11-13-2019, 02:56 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I am shocked that you are not troubled by that Ukraine conversation. I laughed as hard as you did when the Democrats tried to make hay out of the suspicion that the Russians handed Trump damning evidence of how the DNC was playing favorites; helping Hillary cheat during the primary debates; transcripts of Hillary saying stuff that contradicts her comments regarding banks and immigration, etc.

But this is apparent quid pro quo in implementing foreign policy. I thought you would draw the line there.

That seems to be in a different category than lying under oath about a blowjob.
I don't know why you're shocked. Weeks ago, iiandyiiii asked this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
For the Trump supporters, I guess I'll just ask this -- if it were shown to your satisfaction that Trump really did expect the investigation into Biden in exchange for the aid to Ukraine, would you support impeachment?
And here was my answer then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Probably not. It looks like there's some shady shit that went on with the Biden boys in Ukraine, and I think it should be investigated thoroughly (you guys do support investigations, right?). I don't mind President Trump using his position to make sure the truth is brought to light. ...
  #34  
Old 11-15-2019, 12:42 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,911
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
As do I. It's like you guys already forgot (or never learned in the first place) the lessons of impeachment from a couple of decades ago.
WE'RE GONNA GET A BALANCED BUDGET? FUCK YEAH!

(That's what you meant, right?)
  #35  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:42 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
My heavily right-wing coworkers are celebrating Trump's second term of office with this news. They see this as an absolute disaster for the Dems.
Well, Trump voters clearly have the most brilliant minds of our generation so.....

Oh wait.

Whatever.
  #36  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:43 PM
steronz is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oh-hiya-Maude
Posts: 5,204
It's an absolute disaster for America that democrats need to burn all of this political capital because Republicans elected a fucking moron.
  #37  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:48 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,497
In my fevered imagination, supporting actual and obvious election interference through using public money to convince a foreign government to manufacture dirt about your opponent might just be a bridge too far for some Republicans.

I fantasize about Moscow Mitch and the others all getting together and saying "Is this it? Yes, this is it. Punt him NOW, and fast." And this time next week, Trump is gone.
  #38  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:51 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 36,076
I tend to think this was the right move, especially if they move relatively quickly. Use those increased powers to subpoena absolutely everything and everyone, ASAP, and the courts will probably process the WH's resistance much more quickly. However it goes, make it go quickly. If it goes well, great for the Democrats... if it goes badly, then there will be plenty of time to try and make up for it.

But at least Congress will have used their powers appropriately to fight corruption and wrongdoing at the top.
  #39  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:03 PM
Crane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,103

Opportunity Knocks!


This is the opportunity for the Republican establishment to regain control. They need only lay low and let the Dems impeach while encouraging Republican serving anti-Trump propaganda - Trump was always a closet Democrat, his election was a Make Trump Great scam, stuff like that. Vote him out of office by one vote.


Then run Nicky Haley against Warren in 2020!
  #40  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:23 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,851
Quiet, you.

(Actually, I think a healthy, sane, robust Republican Party would be a good thing, for EVERYONE, so I kind of like your idea).
  #41  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:28 PM
Akaj's Avatar
Akaj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: In the vanishing middle
Posts: 845
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Quiet, you.

(Actually, I think a healthy, sane, robust Republican Party would be a good thing, for EVERYONE, so I kind of like your idea).
I agree, except they don't deserve to be perceived as healthy and sane for at least two presidential election cycles, or until three SCOTUS justices can be replaced, whichever comes first.
__________________
I'm not expecting any surprises.
  #42  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:50 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaj View Post
I agree, except they don't deserve to be perceived as healthy and sane for at least two presidential election cycles, or until three SCOTUS justices can be replaced, whichever comes first.
Amen to that.
  #43  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:06 PM
McDeath_the_Mad is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 962
A couple thoughts from a Canadian:

This is much different than Clinton's impeachment. They wanted to impeach Clinton over lying about a BJ in the oval office. That's pretty frivolous. This impeachment is regarding Trump conspiring/black mailing a foreign country for political gain! Plus the possibility of at least 2-3 other major charges for things Trump has done. Totally an apples to oranges situation!

My other thought is after watching Bill Maher this weekend, one of the panelists had an excellent point: if you don't start impeachment proceedings because of what Trump did with the Ukraine, you set a dangerous precedent that would allow future presidents to the same (if not worse) and know there are no repercussions. Even if you know impeachment won't happen (because the other guys run the Senate) there has to be a record of you trying! And who knows, maybe something truly earth shattering will come out of the proceedings and "Moscow Mitch" might actually find a spine inside his slimy bag of endoplasm!

You'll never move his base from not voting for him, but I would hope the rest of the Republican "Patriots" will finally see the light and not vote for this clown in the next election.

And here's another curve ball, if impeachment proceeds and forces Trump to resign, before November 2020. What happens to the 2020 election? The Republicans will need to come up with a candidate, what if the resignation is after their convention? Would the running mate (Pence?) be the defacto candidate?

MtM
__________________
/\/\cDeath the /\/\ad
  #44  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:25 PM
KidCharlemagne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,397
Another thing that concerns me is if that you're a centrist voter on the fence about Trump, you're probably not the sharpest knife. My bet is they take a Senate acquittal as meaning "Not Guilty," as if this is a legal process, then they get mad at the Dems for wasting the country's time and vote Trump.
  #45  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:42 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is offline
Extrajudicial
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,026

Moderating


I closed two parallel threads and directed traffic to this one. The threads I closed were here and here.

[/moderating]
  #46  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:00 PM
SenorBeef is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 28,317
Here's my concern with this situation:

If it seems like things finally might start turning on Trump, McConnel and all of the other Republicans who enabled him are probably going to try to cut a deal with Pelosi and the democratic leadership. "Okay, so we'll help you get rid of Trump, but leave us out of it."

And I fear that the democratic leadership would be stupid enough and derelict in their duties enough to take such a deal.

Trump is only one aspect of a larger problem - the radicalized Republican base and the corrupt Republican party that will do anything to enhance their own power, rig the system in their favor, and loot the country as hard as they can. Pretending that this is all just Trump, and if we get rid of him it all goes back to normal, would be a horrific mistake.

If Trump was the only problem, then a responsible Republican party would've already been on board with getting rid of him 200 scandals ago. Their corruption and complicity is what kept him protected no matter how badly he fucked up. If those same people remain in power after this, the situation gets worse.

The Republicans now know that their radicalized, hateful base will support absolutely anything Fox News tells them to support, anything that anyone who isn't part of their in-group thinks is bad, they're all for it. So the next Republican president isn't going to be a senile clown who can't speak a sentence or two - he's going to be a smooth operator who knows full well how to take advantage of his radicalized base, who can sound like a relatively normal politician while also using the dog whistles to throw the republican base a bone while much more effectively executing an evil agenda like coordinating foreign rigging of our election in their favor, continuing naked power grabs (like in North Carolina), domestic rigging and manipulation of elections (like in Georgia), stacking the courts with radical right wing judges, obstructing the democrats no matter what, like under Obama, etc.

It's not enough to just get rid of Trump. And in fact, getting rid of Trump alone might be the most dangerous of all options. There has to be a reckoning, a purge. We have to acknowledge that what has gone on in recent years is way outside the norm, and way outside of what can be acceptable from an American political party.
  #47  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:54 PM
steatopygia's Avatar
steatopygia is offline
Experimental FOC Test Pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Idaho mostly
Posts: 1,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Here's my concern with this situation:

If it seems like things finally might start turning on Trump, McConnel and all of the other Republicans who enabled him are probably going to try to cut a deal with Pelosi and the democratic leadership. "Okay, so we'll help you get rid of Trump, but leave us out of it."

And I fear that the democratic leadership would be stupid enough and derelict in their duties enough to take such a deal.

Trump is only one aspect of a larger problem - the radicalized Republican base and the corrupt Republican party that will do anything to enhance their own power, rig the system in their favor, and loot the country as hard as they can. Pretending that this is all just Trump, and if we get rid of him it all goes back to normal, would be a horrific mistake.

If Trump was the only problem, then a responsible Republican party would've already been on board with getting rid of him 200 scandals ago. Their corruption and complicity is what kept him protected no matter how badly he fucked up. If those same people remain in power after this, the situation gets worse.

The Republicans now know that their radicalized, hateful base will support absolutely anything Fox News tells them to support, anything that anyone who isn't part of their in-group thinks is bad, they're all for it. So the next Republican president isn't going to be a senile clown who can't speak a sentence or two - he's going to be a smooth operator who knows full well how to take advantage of his radicalized base, who can sound like a relatively normal politician while also using the dog whistles to throw the republican base a bone while much more effectively executing an evil agenda like coordinating foreign rigging of our election in their favor, continuing naked power grabs (like in North Carolina), domestic rigging and manipulation of elections (like in Georgia), stacking the courts with radical right wing judges, obstructing the democrats no matter what, like under Obama, etc.

It's not enough to just get rid of Trump. And in fact, getting rid of Trump alone might be the most dangerous of all options. There has to be a reckoning, a purge. We have to acknowledge that what has gone on in recent years is way outside the norm, and way outside of what can be acceptable from an American political party.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.
If America has any chance of regaining its stature and not devolving into a has been banana republic, we need to prosecute this administration for every crime it has committed. Let the republicans explain how they went along with it.
If republican voters want to keep this charade up, let's get it out in the open and call a racist a racist, a religious zealot a zealot, a criminal a criminal.
  #48  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:07 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
This seems like counting your chickens before they've hatched. You haven't even gotten "rid of Trump" yet (and you're very unlikely to do so) and yet you've already moved on to 'we also need to get rid of these other guys'?
  #49  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:11 PM
beowulff's Avatar
beowulff is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Scottsdale, more-or-less
Posts: 16,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This seems like counting your chickens before they've hatched. You haven't even gotten "rid of Trump" yet (and you're very unlikely to do so) and yet you've already moved on to 'we also need to get rid of these other guys'?
The majority can dream, can't it?
  #50  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:32 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulff View Post
The majority can dream, can't it?
You mean 'minority', right? I'm pretty sure a solid majority of the public is against impeaching Trump:


Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-24-2019 at 07:33 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017