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Old 11-25-2019, 01:20 PM
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Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board


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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Is it ingracious to say that the ending I had hoped for was that you Tuba, as administrator, would see that Bone clearly had a blind spot that created a deficiency on the board's most vulnerable issue and therefore remove him?

Where were you and this speech over the past week? Why were you not defending the women of this board? Why was a mod clearly in the wrong the only representative of authority? Did you not notice Miller correcting a mistake and owning up to his lapse? This problem corrected itself, but that cannot be the way the board runs.

Bone, I also hope that you will stay on as a poster. We need voices on all sides who see no need to make themselves pittable to gain attention or because they lack simple human decency. The vast majority of people here never get pitted (or get defended if someone is silly enough to do so). That number would be zero in a better world. Getting that number as close to zero as possible should be the board's goal, and fairly easily attainable.

Tuba, it's in your ballpark. Step up to the plate. Hit a home run. And continue sports metaphors to victory.
I have separated this out from Bone's thread to focus on this query exclusively.

1. Bone is no longer a moderator on this board. Like all of us, he had times when he was glorious and times when he was wretched. All moderators have this; we are humans, with all the potential greatness within us and also the most base and faulty choices possible. I've made plenty of both in 23 years here, I freely admit error. None of us are immune. (But we're not always wrong.) We do the best we can with what we have going at any moment. The hope is that we learn the greater lesson from all we do and move forward.

Bone is no longer a moderator on this board. Nothing is changed or improved by trashing him or (literally) Monday Morning Quarterbacking his choices. This should not be used as an opportunity to revile him on the way out. You can disagree with his choices but that doesn't mean you should slap him around.

2. There is no doubt the Board has fallen far from our highest ideals and many of the principles we had in mind about how the community should operate. If you look back over our history you will see rises and falls. There's times we got things exactly right and times we have failed. All we can do is look at where we are, put on our boots, and go back out to strive for betterment.

We are overdue for this evaluation and correction. And it's time for action.

The SDMB reflects our society. Today we are in an increasingly tribal, unceasingly warring culture. People don't discuss or debate in good faith, they decry, they demand, they assault. On the scorched fields of discourse they relentlessly search for targets to attack and destroy. Much of this is played out on the board, and it makes for hard going.

There is much that needs adjusting here. Everyone needs to be less judgmental, less aggressive, less inclined to condemn. There needs to be genuine social discourse. The entire idea about this place to begin with was that this would be a place where we could talk about damn near everything. More and more it's a place where we can't talk about anything.

That's messed up and we're all to blame. We own it all; all the goodness in places and all the toxic spots too. It belongs to all of us. It's the house we all built a post at a time. And 22 millions posts later, here we are.

We can make things better. We can have nice things. It might not be exactly the place you personally envision 100% because we cannot be all things to all people. But we can and should make room for everybody. We can hear most every note in the symphony of the human spirit.

I ask for your assistance and your forbearance too; we can't get there overnight. And we can't get there unless everyone does their part. Be an active force for better; model the attitudes and behavior you want to see here. I believe good content has the potential to drive out the bad. Light can dispel darkness. I believe we can go back to a time when we were more gracious, where we gave the benefit of the doubt, where we respected the right to agree to disagree, when we didn't judge people so hard and so harshly and hated them because they were different.

This change comes from all of us. Please work with me to make it real.

Jenny
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:00 PM
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I agree that we all need to work at being our best selves here. Christ knows I don't manage it, and can work at it.

Something I'd like to ask my fellow leftists to do: please allow space for reasonable opposition. Y'all have seen the James Baldwin quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Baldwin
We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.
There's plenty of conservative thought that denies the humanity/right to exist of oppressed groups, sure. I'm not going to list them here out of fear that someone will come along and hijack the thread to squabble over specific examples.

But there's also plenty of conservative thought that *doesn't* do that. Let's disagree and still love one another when the dispute is about, say, how to educate our children, or how to balance personal liberty and tax structure, or how maximize US foreign policy as a force for good in the world.

I think I see people in disagreements trying to change the arena from "we disagree on the best methods" to "we disagree because you're denying humanity." I'd rather we work to shrink that latter category, while still recognizing its strong pernicious influence on major areas of disagreement.

I have things I'd ask for from board conservatives, but I something think my voice isn't the most effective one to make those requests .

--As for Bone, his farewell post included enough jabs at board culture, I'm pretty okay with folks responding to it critically. Had he given a resignation that was more vague, that'd be different; but talking about he can no longer "suffer fools" is pretty much inviting a response.
  #3  
Old 12-09-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I agree that we all need to work at being our best selves here. Christ knows I don't manage it, and can work at it.

Something I'd like to ask my fellow leftists to do: please allow space for reasonable opposition.

[snip]

There's plenty of conservative thought that denies the humanity/right to exist of oppressed groups, sure. I'm not going to list them here out of fear that someone will come along and hijack the thread to squabble over specific examples.

[snip]

I think I see people in disagreements trying to change the arena from "we disagree on the best methods" to "we disagree because you're denying humanity.
The middle bit is a poor way to start.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:43 PM
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The middle bit is a poor way to start.
No, it's the simple truth. And demonstrates why being "fair" and treating all sides as equal is in reality just a prettied up way of taking the side of the far right and silencing their victims.

In the long run a board or other meeting place can have the right wing or everyone else but not both, because the Right will drive everyone else away.
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:43 PM
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No, it's the simple truth. And demonstrates why being "fair" and treating all sides as equal is in reality just a prettied up way of taking the side of the far right and silencing their victims.

In the long run a board or other meeting place can have the right wing or everyone else but not both, because the Right will drive everyone else away.
How is anyone being silenced if they can type their thoughts?
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Old 12-10-2019, 12:47 AM
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How is anyone being silenced if they can type their thoughts?
Can we, though? Without getting a warning for it, that is?
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Old Yesterday, 05:19 AM
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How is anyone being silenced if they can type their thoughts?
By being suspended, banned, or intimidated into silence of course. Or driven away from the board.
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
--As for Bone, his farewell post included enough jabs at board culture, I'm pretty okay with folks responding to it critically. Had he given a resignation that was more vague, that'd be different; but talking about he can no longer "suffer fools" is pretty much inviting a response.
Where is the farewell post posted? Is there a link?
  #9  
Old 12-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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Where is the farewell post posted? Is there a link?
So does anyone have a link to this farewell post?
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:40 PM
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So does anyone have a link to this farewell post?
Never mind. Found it.
  #11  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:04 PM
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I'm perfectly willing to stay civil (or go back if I've strayed) on all kinds of contentious issues. Guns, abortion, climate change, tax policy, military spending, calorie disclosure requirements, etc. I fear, however, that I cannot stay civil on discussions involving support of President Trump. I suppose the best I can hope for is refraining from participation entirely.
  #12  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:13 PM
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LHOD, I agree with most everything you said, and I thank you.

We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting. It costs us nothing to be gracious. It may even be a lesson. It is not difficult to take the gentler path. I wish we all could do that in our interactions here and elsewhere.

We could even start a little something. What the hell. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, it could even be a movement!

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
If you know what I mean and I hope that you do.

Last edited by TubaDiva; 11-25-2019 at 02:13 PM.
  #13  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TubaDiva View Post
LHOD, I agree with most everything you said, and I thank you.

We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting.
That's fair. I respect Bone and don't want to kick him when he's down. I get that he's really frustrated and stressed and don't want to add to that stress.

I hope we can hold the same space in our hearts for folks who are so stressed and frustrated over long-time ugly cultural patterns on this board.
  #14  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:53 PM
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We can choose to be kind, especially when people are hurting. It costs us nothing to be gracious. It may even be a lesson. It is not difficult to take the gentler path. I wish we all could do that in our interactions here and elsewhere.
Thank you. I have adopted "Make America Kind Again" and more specifically "Make [SpoilerVirgin] Kind Again" as my motto this year, and have worked to take that path both IRL and on the board. I would love for that same approach to be adopted by more SDMB participants. Maybe then I could feel more comfortable participating in political discussions and adding my voice to the debate.
  #15  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:57 PM
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Thank you. I have adopted "Make America Kind Again" and more specifically "Make [SpoilerVirgin] Kind Again" as my motto this year, and have worked to take that path both IRL and on the board. I would love for that same approach to be adopted by more SDMB participants. Maybe then I could feel more comfortable participating in political discussions and adding my voice to the debate.
Huh.

Obviously, I'm comfortable enough in GD and Elections that I participate there. It occurs to me that we could all stand to hear what people who AREN'T posting there need in order to feel comfortable.

That might almost be worth a separate thread.
  #16  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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I'm with Jenny!

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Originally Posted by TubaDiva View Post
We could even start a little something. What the hell. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, it could even be a movement!
...and if you're in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do, and that's walk into the Dope wherever you are, just walk in an' say "Doper:

You can talk anything you want
At Straight Dope restaurant."


And walk out. ...And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in, singing a bar of Straight Dope Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin' a bar of Straight Dope Restaurant and walking out. And friends, they may thinks it's a movement! And that's what it is, the Straight Dope Restaurant Anti-Massacree Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar, with feeling.
  #17  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TubaDiva View Post
But we can and should make room for everybody.
So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your "everybody" seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes...the list goes on.
  #18  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:57 PM
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So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your "everybody" seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes...the list goes on.
Yes, everybody. Don't exclude anyone for what goes on inside their head; just exclude certain types of behavior and language (and, if necessary, people who indulge in it).
  #19  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:00 PM
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So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your "everybody" seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes...the list goes on.
While we strive for an open and inclusive community, there are certain people that are counterproductive to the aims of the denizens of this board.

Chief among them are the cynical, the cruel, the name callers, and the judgmental.

They are accomplices and facilitators to the axe grinders, the agenda seekers, and the trolls.

Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition.

I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun.

Use wisely your freedom of choice.

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
Another way to look at it.
  #20  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:07 PM
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Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition.

I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun.
I get where you're going, but if you're gonna convince me that the process of self-improvement is more fun than the road to perdition, good luck with that.

  #21  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:09 PM
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I get where you're going, but if you're gonna convince me that the process of self-improvement is more fun than the road to perdition, good luck with that.

The Dark Side does have cookies, Iíve been told.
  #22  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:46 PM
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While we strive for an open and inclusive community, there are certain people that are counterproductive to the aims of the denizens of this board.

Chief among them are the cynical, the cruel, the name callers, and the judgmental.

They are accomplices and facilitators to the axe grinders, the agenda seekers, and the trolls.

Everyone can be part of the process to improvement or a step on the Road to Perdition.

I know which one is likely be more productive and a hell of a lot more fun.

Use wisely your freedom of choice.

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
Another way to look at it.
I donít work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I donít care if itís $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it.
  #23  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:59 PM
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I donít work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I donít care if itís $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it.
Are you a millennial? Your money is next to meaningless. Nobody works for you. Other people with equally insignificant monetary contributions disagree with you on the fix. Quit acting like this is a phone delivered with a broken screen. The way to fix things here is not obvious to all.
  #24  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:14 PM
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Are you a millennial? Your money is next to meaningless. Nobody works for you. Other people with equally insignificant monetary contributions disagree with you on the fix. Quit acting like this is a phone delivered with a broken screen. The way to fix things here is not obvious to all.
Ok, boomer. If my money doesnít matter, they shouldnít have asked for it and Iím 53 gramps.
  #25  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:57 PM
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I don’t work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I don’t care if it’s $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it.

Useless as saying the same thing to a cop. I hate to agree with CarnalK but that is less than helpful and a pretty jerkish thing to say.

ETA and I'm older than da botha ya.

Last edited by steatopygia; 11-25-2019 at 09:59 PM.
  #26  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:02 PM
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Useless as saying the same thing to a cop. I hate to agree with CarnalK but that is less than helpful and a pretty jerkish thing to say.

ETA and I'm older than da botha ya.
I donít give a shit what either of you think, old white menís sense of entitlement is a big fucking part of the problem around here.
  #27  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:33 PM
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I donít work for you, you work for me. You started to work for me when you took my money to be a member. I donít care if itís $15 or $1, once you took my money, the SDMB stopped being a website I posted on and became a product I buy. Fix it.
As also a paying member, I dont think it needs fixing.
  #28  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:17 PM
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...

Since your "everybody" seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes...the list goes on.
Who decides which poster is one of those? Is saying "I like boobies" misogyny or just old school cluelessness? Or just crassness? Is not liking Rep Omars positions being a "Islamophobe"? Is saying the sex you were born with is your sex= transphobe? Those labels have been throw around much too easily.


And if they really one of those, and they get out of hand they get slapped down. If they remain mostly civil, but still dead wrong, then tell them (well they wont listen, but others will) in clear, concise, civil and cited language will help defeat their ignorance.


We are here to Defeat Ignorance. The only way to defeat ignorance is to fight it.
  #29  
Old 11-27-2019, 11:47 PM
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Who decides which poster is one of those? Is saying "I like boobies" misogyny or just old school cluelessness? Or just crassness?
Distinctions without difference.
Quote:
Is not liking Rep Omars positions being a "Islamophobe"?
No
Quote:
Is saying the sex you were born with is your sex= transphobe?
Yes
Quote:
Those labels have been throw around much too easily.
It only looks that way because people are throwing around misogynistic and transphobic and racist comments around much too easily. There's less of the outright homophobia, Islamophobia or antisemitism nowadays, but that's down to a change across the board.
Quote:
And if they really one of those, and they get out of hand they get slapped down.
Apparently, not if they're polite about it.
Quote:
If they remain mostly civil
There's nothing civil about telling someone they don't, or shouldn't, exist, regardless of phrasing.
Quote:
We are here to Defeat Ignorance.
No, we're really not. It's just a stupid tagline, people need to get over it.
  #30  
Old 11-28-2019, 12:20 AM
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... Is saying "I like boobies" misogyny or just old school cluelessness?...
No question that intent matters. I prefer to err on presuming cluelessness over malintent when possible (your respond to the post not the poster) ... but cluelessness that is willfully and persistently ignorant transitions minimally into jerkishness. And functionally is as harmful as ill intent. Independent of intent it is best constrained.

Just my selfish desires: I want to understand how conservatives think and why and to discuss back and forth respectively with them. I donít care to waste my time with understanding racists, wannabe fascists, anti-Semites, or a variety of other -ists. Cutting slack on intent once is chill. Persistence of those posts not.

Can we have the former without the latter?
  #31  
Old 12-10-2019, 04:14 PM
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So, you truly have learned nothing from all this, that much is clear.

Since your "everybody" seems to include racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, Islamophobes...the list goes on.
The thing is that pro-lifers are frequently labeled misogynists
People who oppose affirmative action are often called racists
People who don't like what Israel is doing are called anti-semites
People who believe in the second amendment are called baby-killer
etc.

There is plenty of room for honest debate in those topics and the debate is short circuited by accusations like the ones you list.

On of the last great debates we had on this board was after Sandy Hook when most of the board supported an assault weapons ban. And in the face of accusations of baby-killing, the pro-gun side convinced a large portion of the board that assault weapons bans are stupid gun policy.

I don't know if something like that could happen quite as easily today.
  #32  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:59 PM
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Amen, TubaDiva!!

Too many people make a game out of walking the edge of civility or of crossing that line entirely and then arguing technicalities in an effort to justify themselves. If this Board goes up or down, it does so because of the behavior of the people posting, not because of moderators.

Working in the educational world has shown me first hand that far too many kids have the attitude that it is someone else's job to "make" them behave as opposed to viewing it as a social responsibility that is their own. These kids ultimately become adults. Does that mean that their attitude automatically changes for the better? I don't think so.

It is our responsibility to make this a good place and no one else's. Pretty much all of us can do a better job of it, and that includes me.
__________________
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."
--Daniel J Boorstin
  #33  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:05 PM
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Amen, TubaDiva!!

Too many people make a game out of walking the edge of civility or of crossing that line entirely and then arguing technicalities in an effort to justify themselves. If this Board goes up or down, it does so because of the behavior of the people posting, not because of moderators.

Working in the educational world has shown me first hand that far too many kids have the attitude that it is someone else's job to "make" them behave as opposed to viewing it as a social responsibility that is their own. These kids ultimately become adults. Does that mean that their attitude automatically changes for the better? I don't think so.

It is our responsibility to make this a good place and no one else's. Pretty much all of us can do a better job of it, and that includes me.
Yes! Double yes with sugar on top!

Thank you!

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
  #34  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:58 PM
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Amen, TubaDiva!!

Too many people make a game out of walking the edge of civility or of crossing that line entirely and then arguing technicalities in an effort to justify themselves. If this Board goes up or down, it does so because of the behavior of the people posting, not because of moderators.

Working in the educational world has shown me first hand that far too many kids have the attitude that it is someone else's job to "make" them behave as opposed to viewing it as a social responsibility that is their own. These kids ultimately become adults. Does that mean that their attitude automatically changes for the better? I don't think so.

It is our responsibility to make this a good place and no one else's. Pretty much all of us can do a better job of it, and that includes me.
That sounds good and all, but it IS on the moderators to set the tone of this board. People who enjoy that game you mentioned aren't going to suddenly not enjoy it because of some kumbaya moment. Somebody has to rein them in, and that somebody is not us. It's the moderators.
  #35  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:02 PM
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Again, that sounds like a threat...
  #36  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:08 PM
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TubaDiva,

I admire and appreciate your cheerful and optimistic attitude. I hope it's contagious.
  #37  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:16 PM
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Thanks TD -- and everyone else involved as well.

And we'll try while I am sure we'll all turn out trying now and again.
  #38  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:29 PM
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first off what would help is making a bright line on personal insults even in the pit and strictly enforcing it
  #39  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
first off what would help is making a bright line on personal insults even in the pit and strictly enforcing it
Not really, trolls love "bright lines". "Don't be a jerk" should be the guiding principle.

ETA: I want to make it clear, I am in no way calling you a troll, I just offering up why I don't like the idea of defining specifics. Rules Lawyering is counterproductive.

Last edited by What Exit?; 11-25-2019 at 03:37 PM.
  #40  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:48 PM
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I know I stormed out in the other thread but I got to thinking maybe I was too harsh. I saw later on that the poster I was steamed up about did get warned for his post and things seemed to have settle down so I thought I'd see what was going on in the aftermath of all of it.

Firstly, I haven't been here that long so I don't know squat about how this board used to be twenty years ago or ten or five or even one. I can only judge it by how it is now, and how people post now, not how the "good old days" might have been.

Trying to blame everything on current American culture and hinting that everyone who is a member here is all equally to blame seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to pass the buck instead of taking a long hard look at what isn't working and why.

Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is "don't be a jerk." That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can't do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you're junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn't get to dictate how people respond to your thread. All you need is one problem poster who thinks "screw you, you're not the boss of me!" and the thread gets overrun.

The moderators DO have that power, but don't always use it. As a result, the posters who are being jerks keep being jerks, other posters are helpless to stop them, so the only ones left in the threads are the jerks and the posters who can't help challenging them for whatever reasons.

You can post all the fluffy sunshine and butterflies feel-good stuff you want, and daydream about the good old days all you want, but that's not going to accomplish anything. Those days are over. This is now. The members you have now are what you have to work with.

If you want to make the board a more civil and welcoming place, DO something! It has to start with recruiting moderators who are willing to call being a jerk what it is and stop it before it gets out of hand. And let the moderators use their discretion to do their jobs. Mods who abuse their power get kicked out. If the problem is too many tedious little conflicting rules that the "rules lawyers" can pick apart for loopholes, ditch all the rules and come up with a few clear ones that allow for leeway in interpretation.

It really does look like you're trying to blame the membership for not being as kind and welcoming as you think they should be. Guess what, trying to guilt them into changing the board on their own won't work. Look at any workplace where the boss won't stand by their employees and see how cheerful and productive they are. Look at a group of kids where the teacher's pet or the class bully is allowed to do whatever they want and tell them to be more accepting and patient. Think about a fine-dining restaurant where someone is yelling and throwing food and making a ruckus but the manager won't tell them to leave, and expect the other guests to enjoy their meals.

Change at the bottom won't come without change at the top.
  #41  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tricoteuse View Post
I know I stormed out in the other thread but I got to thinking maybe I was too harsh. I saw later on that the poster I was steamed up about did get warned for his post and things seemed to have settle down so I thought I'd see what was going on in the aftermath of all of it.

Firstly, I haven't been here that long so I don't know squat about how this board used to be twenty years ago or ten or five or even one. I can only judge it by how it is now, and how people post now, not how the "good old days" might have been.

Trying to blame everything on current American culture and hinting that everyone who is a member here is all equally to blame seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to pass the buck instead of taking a long hard look at what isn't working and why.

Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is "don't be a jerk." That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can't do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you're junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn't get to dictate how people respond to your thread. All you need is one problem poster who thinks "screw you, you're not the boss of me!" and the thread gets overrun.

The moderators DO have that power, but don't always use it. As a result, the posters who are being jerks keep being jerks, other posters are helpless to stop them, so the only ones left in the threads are the jerks and the posters who can't help challenging them for whatever reasons.

You can post all the fluffy sunshine and butterflies feel-good stuff you want, and daydream about the good old days all you want, but that's not going to accomplish anything. Those days are over. This is now. The members you have now are what you have to work with.

If you want to make the board a more civil and welcoming place, DO something! It has to start with recruiting moderators who are willing to call being a jerk what it is and stop it before it gets out of hand. And let the moderators use their discretion to do their jobs. Mods who abuse their power get kicked out. If the problem is too many tedious little conflicting rules that the "rules lawyers" can pick apart for loopholes, ditch all the rules and come up with a few clear ones that allow for leeway in interpretation.

It really does look like you're trying to blame the membership for not being as kind and welcoming as you think they should be. Guess what, trying to guilt them into changing the board on their own won't work. Look at any workplace where the boss won't stand by their employees and see how cheerful and productive they are. Look at a group of kids where the teacher's pet or the class bully is allowed to do whatever they want and tell them to be more accepting and patient. Think about a fine-dining restaurant where someone is yelling and throwing food and making a ruckus but the manager won't tell them to leave, and expect the other guests to enjoy their meals.

Change at the bottom won't come without change at the top.
100% agreement with 100% of this post.
  #42  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:46 PM
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misclick

Last edited by Jragon; 11-26-2019 at 09:46 PM.
  #43  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tricoteuse View Post
I know I stormed out in the other thread but I got to thinking maybe I was too harsh. I saw later on that the poster I was steamed up about did get warned for his post and things seemed to have settle down so I thought I'd see what was going on in the aftermath of all of it.

Firstly, I haven't been here that long so I don't know squat about how this board used to be twenty years ago or ten or five or even one. I can only judge it by how it is now, and how people post now, not how the "good old days" might have been.

Trying to blame everything on current American culture and hinting that everyone who is a member here is all equally to blame seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to pass the buck instead of taking a long hard look at what isn't working and why.

Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is "don't be a jerk." That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can't do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you're junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn't get to dictate how people respond to your thread. All you need is one problem poster who thinks "screw you, you're not the boss of me!" and the thread gets overrun.

The moderators DO have that power, but don't always use it. As a result, the posters who are being jerks keep being jerks, other posters are helpless to stop them, so the only ones left in the threads are the jerks and the posters who can't help challenging them for whatever reasons.

You can post all the fluffy sunshine and butterflies feel-good stuff you want, and daydream about the good old days all you want, but that's not going to accomplish anything. Those days are over. This is now. The members you have now are what you have to work with.

If you want to make the board a more civil and welcoming place, DO something! It has to start with recruiting moderators who are willing to call being a jerk what it is and stop it before it gets out of hand. And let the moderators use their discretion to do their jobs. Mods who abuse their power get kicked out. If the problem is too many tedious little conflicting rules that the "rules lawyers" can pick apart for loopholes, ditch all the rules and come up with a few clear ones that allow for leeway in interpretation.

It really does look like you're trying to blame the membership for not being as kind and welcoming as you think they should be. Guess what, trying to guilt them into changing the board on their own won't work. Look at any workplace where the boss won't stand by their employees and see how cheerful and productive they are. Look at a group of kids where the teacher's pet or the class bully is allowed to do whatever they want and tell them to be more accepting and patient. Think about a fine-dining restaurant where someone is yelling and throwing food and making a ruckus but the manager won't tell them to leave, and expect the other guests to enjoy their meals.

Change at the bottom won't come without change at the top.
TBH, this is a much better version of what I intended in this thread I think got misinterpreted due to my own poor writing (and was entirely too long).

What I was trying to point out/solve in that thread is that moderators don't moderate things if they're not clear cut slurs and things like that, but will mod people who break "decorum" and call out the "you're not the boss of me" posters who hide behind these rules in no uncertain terms. Part of my "pit being toxic" section was that not only do the existence of those rules shield the people presenting the problem, it also adds additional overhead towards addressing the problem, because you have to take it to the put and take the effort to make a new thread or post in a megathread rather than just addressing the tenor of the argument as part of the debate.

My desire isn't to have threads full of cursing at other posters and callout threads everywhere, it was the fact that if the mods aren't going to police this stuff, we should at least be able to self-police by calling things what they are, and to be honest even if the mods will police it some redundancy is nice anyway.
  #44  
Old 11-27-2019, 11:04 AM
tricoteuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
TBH, this is a much better version of what I intended in this thread I think got misinterpreted due to my own poor writing (and was entirely too long).

What I was trying to point out/solve in that thread is that moderators don't moderate things if they're not clear cut slurs and things like that, but will mod people who break "decorum" and call out the "you're not the boss of me" posters who hide behind these rules in no uncertain terms. Part of my "pit being toxic" section was that not only do the existence of those rules shield the people presenting the problem, it also adds additional overhead towards addressing the problem, because you have to take it to the put and take the effort to make a new thread or post in a megathread rather than just addressing the tenor of the argument as part of the debate.

My desire isn't to have threads full of cursing at other posters and callout threads everywhere, it was the fact that if the mods aren't going to police this stuff, we should at least be able to self-police by calling things what they are, and to be honest even if the mods will police it some redundancy is nice anyway.
I understood what you were getting at in that thread and it was part of what got me pondering on what the biggest problems around here were, so don't worry about being unclear.

If I was Queen of the Messageboard the pit is one of the places I'd start with some serious rules revision.

First of all, I think the pit would wind up being more bitching about current events and personal problems than poster vs. poster fights if posters were allowed to POLITELY address jerkishness in any thread.

I'd still allow posters to call each other out but bar the mention of mental or physical illness as insults. No insults based on gender or political affiliation. Definitely not against being LGBT or nonwhite although that's probably covered under hate speech. There are still plenty of good insults out there that work for everone!
  #45  
Old 11-27-2019, 02:27 PM
D'Anconia is online now
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Originally Posted by tricoteuse View Post
First of all, I think the pit would wind up being more bitching about current events and personal problems than poster vs. poster fights if posters were allowed to POLITELY address jerkishness in any thread.
Posters are already allowed to bitch about current events and personal problems in other forums. Why would it be desirable to turn the Pit into more of that?
  #46  
Old 11-27-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
TBH, this is a much better version of what I intended in this thread I think got misinterpreted due to my own poor writing (and was entirely too long).

What I was trying to point out/solve in that thread is that moderators don't moderate things if they're not clear cut slurs and things like that, but will mod people who break "decorum" and call out the "you're not the boss of me" posters who hide behind these rules in no uncertain terms. Part of my "pit being toxic" section was that not only do the existence of those rules shield the people presenting the problem, it also adds additional overhead towards addressing the problem, because you have to take it to the put and take the effort to make a new thread or post in a megathread rather than just addressing the tenor of the argument as part of the debate.

My desire isn't to have threads full of cursing at other posters and callout threads everywhere, it was the fact that if the mods aren't going to police this stuff, we should at least be able to self-police by calling things what they are, and to be honest even if the mods will police it some redundancy is nice anyway.
The mods supposedly police the rules of the board. Not the rules that posters wish were the rules. It should be clear and not difficult. Now if the board wants to act in a de facto by popular demand fashion then have the integrity to clearly state that.
  #47  
Old 11-27-2019, 03:39 PM
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The mods supposedly police the rules of the board. Not the rules that posters wish were the rules. It should be clear and not difficult. Now if the board wants to act in a de facto by popular demand fashion then have the integrity to clearly state that.
nah fam i think the board should clamp down on trolly bullshit and ban people who post heinous bigoted shit even if they dont technically use the big naughty words even if its not ~pOpUlAr DeMaNd~ and also be able to tell posters who do it to fuck off and point out theyre being bigoted pieces of shit so people reading know the heinous dogwhistly history of the sorts of arguments theyre making hth
  #48  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:24 PM
DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tricoteuse View Post
...
Everyone here makes a big deal out of how the main rule is "don't be a jerk." That means when people act like jerks, the moderators have to STOP them being jerks. Regular posters can't do anything. If you tell someone to stop acting a certain way, you're junior modding. If you call someone a jerk anywhere but the pit, you get in trouble for insulting another poster. If you ask people to stay on topic you get told you dn't get to dictate how people respond to your thread. .....
You can call posters out- by concentrating and calling out what they posted, not what you think they are.

Someone makes a post you think is racist- you can & should say: "That post comes across as racist" . You can't say "You are a racist".

You can certainly can ask people to stay on topic. I do it all the time. But nicely. You cant demand and if after asking nicely once, they continue- report.

The Mods cant be expected to read every post. If you read a jerkish post and dont report it, then- that's your fault, not theirs. If nothing is done, you can PM them. If it continues, start a thread in ATMB. You do have power. A Regular poster can do a lot.
  #49  
Old 12-10-2019, 03:54 PM
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IIt really does look like you're trying to blame the membership for not being as kind and welcoming as you think they should be.
We used to be better.
Then we started to replace debate with insults and it kinda went downhill from there.
  #50  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
We used to be better.
Then we started to replace debate with insults and it kinda went downhill from there.
A very persistent and vocal minority want that to be a feature in order to prevent challenge to the ideological orthodoxy of the board. Why? Who knows? It seems a place where everyone thinks in a homogeneous manner would be pointless.
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