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  #301  
Old 11-30-2019, 02:07 AM
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Reply Guy.
I know you are. But what am I?
  #302  
Old 11-30-2019, 02:10 AM
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I don't.
There, was that so fucking hard?

Of course, it's made laughable by the "I don't see colour" bullshit that follows, but still, there it is.
  #303  
Old 11-30-2019, 02:42 AM
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There, was that so fucking hard?
it was neither hard nor necessary.

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Of course, it's made laughable by the "I don't see colour" bullshit that follows, but still, there it is.
If your super-powers of recollection are what you claim them to be you'll know that my position is this thread is perfectly consistent with what I said over the years. It hasn't changed and it won't change.

In this forum What someone says matters, their colour doesn't not. I don't assume it, I don't need to know, I don't pay attention to it and I don't remember it.
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  #304  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:49 AM
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it was neither hard nor necessary.
Only took several posts of hedging. Not hard at all. And necessary or not, there it is.
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It hasn't changed and it won't change.
It's good you admit you're close-minded. Not surprising at all, but good, anyway. Knowing is half the battle.
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In this forum What someone says matters, their colour doesn't not.
Yep, easy for you to say. One could even say it's your privilege to do so.
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I don't pay attention to it and I don't remember it.
Yes, we know, mind like a ...thing, wire, you drain vegetables with it....

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  #305  
Old 11-30-2019, 06:03 AM
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In this forum What someone says matters, their colour doesn't not. I don't assume it, I don't need to know, I don't pay attention to it and I don't remember it.
Wait. You mean you don’t maintain a database of every posters’ age, race, gender, sexuality, after tax income, star sign, medical history, and inside leg measurement?

Loser

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 11-30-2019 at 06:04 AM.
  #306  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:27 AM
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It's good you admit you're close-minded.
I am close-minded to the possibility of being close-minded and I risk vanishing in a puff of logic.
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  #307  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:32 AM
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Wait. You mean you donít maintain a database of every postersí age, race, gender, sexuality, after tax income, star sign, medical history, and inside leg measurement?

Loser
Unfortunately my wife judged it "too creepy".

She was like "yak, yak, yak, you shouldn't be flying photo-drones over peoples houses" and "yak, yak, yak, tracking devices are illegal" and "nag nag nag, you shouldn't steal and test DNA samples from people without their permission"
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  #308  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:45 AM
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If only there were some middle ground between "creepy spreadsheets" and "Should really talk to my doctor about these early onset dementia symptoms"

Unfortunately, no such thing as "a normally functioning memory and a passing interest in people one interacts with regularly" has ever been shown to exist.
  #309  
Old 11-30-2019, 08:19 AM
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Unfortunately, no such thing as "a normally functioning memory and a passing interest in people one interacts with regularly" has ever been shown to exist.
As far as the SDMB goes I don't have an interest in the people, not in the slightest. Just the points they make. The personal stuff is disregarded and that has always been my way. It doesn't interest me and it just never sticks. If there is a nugget that I will need I write it down. (Birthdays etc.).

I'm pretty astonished that you don't know anyone else with that sort of memory. It isn't uncommon and I'm surprised you'd even use the term "normal" in there.

One thing that I can do is to recall events and information through the prompting of music. Stevie Wonder's "superstition" was playing as I drove with my wife to Alton Towers Theme park in 1992. Play me that song and I can mentally replay exactly where we were on that road.
Our holiday last year saw us driving through the Australian rainforest with "Cabin Pressure" on the stereo. Listening back to episodes now I can picture the location on the road where we were when various lines were spoken.

But no, I can't, for certain, remember my brother's birthdays without looking them up which is why I write them down. Memory is very wierd.
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  #310  
Old 11-30-2019, 01:17 PM
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"trendy justice whoriors"
  #311  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:40 PM
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In this forum What someone says matters, their colour doesn't not. I don't assume it, I don't need to know, I don't pay attention to it and I don't remember it.
I always love this type of comment. You really think you're the epitome of honest debate, well presenting yourself as such. But if you don't actually digest the background of some posters, especially when it is part of their argument, you're really just an idiot. I mean, I know you're really just full of shit, but your shield is that of an idiot. I understand why you play it that way. Lots of lefties are in love with free speech/color blindness, so this bit gives you cover for the more credulous.

Last edited by CarnalK; 11-30-2019 at 05:41 PM.
  #312  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:54 PM
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I always love this type of comment. You really think you're the epitome of honest debate, well presenting yourself as such. But if you don't actually digest the background of some posters, especially when it is part of their argument, you're really just an idiot. I mean, I know you're really just full of shit, but your shield is that of an idiot. I understand why you play it that way. Lots of lefties are in love with free speech/color blindness, so this bit gives you cover for the more credulous.
So you think one should discriminate? Thatís actually more idiotic.
  #313  
Old 11-30-2019, 06:20 PM
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I always love this type of comment. You really think you're the epitome of honest debate, well presenting yourself as such. But if you don't actually digest the background of some posters, especially when it is part of their argument, you're really just an idiot. I mean, I know you're really just full of shit, but your shield is that of an idiot. I understand why you play it that way. Lots of lefties are in love with free speech/color blindness, so this bit gives you cover for the more credulous.
If their background is relevant to their point then it is up to them to mention it at that moment. I don't assume it or remember it when the thread is gone however.

I'm a left leaning, small "L" liberal humanist and my posting record and previous comments are there for you to check if you want. Of course, you'll have digested my background before making your accusation won't you? Or, seeing as I've posted thousands of times over many years I can reasonably expect you to already have a good grasp of who I am and what I believe.

You wouldn't be such a hypocrite as to not take my own background into account and at the same time accuse me of doing the same for other posters? That'd be very sloppy and dishonest of you.
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  #314  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:06 AM
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So you think one should discriminate? Thatís actually more idiotic.
One should notice, appreciate and remember things. If that's not your thing, so be it.
  #315  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:25 AM
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If their background is relevant to their point then it is up to them to mention it at that moment. I don't assume it or remember it when the thread is gone however.

I'm a left leaning, small "L" liberal humanist and my posting record and previous comments are there for you to check if you want. Of course, you'll have digested my background before making your accusation won't you? Or, seeing as I've posted thousands of times over many years I can reasonably expect you to already have a good grasp of who I am and what I believe.

You wouldn't be such a hypocrite as to not take my own background into account and at the same time accuse me of doing the same for other posters? That'd be very sloppy and dishonest of you.
I am not going to make an intense study of your background. I have my view of this thread and "humans are primates though surely" pretty much sealed the deal. My vague background impression of you as a well polished knob might have influenced.

Don't know you well enough to know if you're always a troll but that's what I see here.
  #316  
Old 12-01-2019, 03:42 AM
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So you think one should discriminate?
Yes. In the original meaning of the word.
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Thatís actually more idiotic.
Noting that different posters have different backgrounds isn't idiotic.

Treating everyone as if they're the same (and the model they're all the same as is White Cis Hetrosexual Male.) is what's idiotic.
  #317  
Old 12-01-2019, 04:54 AM
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I am not going to make an intense study of your background.
Though you expect others to have done so?

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I have my view of this thread and "humans are primates though surely" pretty much sealed the deal.
That was my very specific response to the very confused post from Margin the implication of that being that you can never use the word "primate" in relation to humans.......they said

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Only if you are at a zoo or discussing zoo mammals or discussing, you know, primates
which suggested they don't think humans are primates. We are, we all are.

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My vague background impression of you as a well polished knob might have influenced.
Fair enough but even that impression isn't relevant to the truth or sincerity of what I say. It is for exactly that reason that I'm glad I don't build up an impression of posters.

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Don't know you well enough to know if you're always a troll but that's what I see here.
By the defintiion of troll used typically I'm never a troll. No games, no tricks or traps other than getting people to consider the consequences of what they are saying and reflecting it back on them. I do like getting clarity on what people mean and how they and I come to know what we think we know. Does it stack up? Is is reasonable? Can you plot a path from A to B?

That does involve challenging the opinions that people hold and sometimes not merely accept a position on face value. That can be confrontational but that's fine. I don't seek confrontation for the sake of it but leaving important questions unasked is ultimately not helpful. That's my mindset and a fair chunk of my day job.

My very first contribution to to this thread was to do with a potential situation where an unreasonable expectation was being placed on posters. Yet, even then, right at the start, I was clear that the warning might be justified and that it was me that might be missing some information or history. It was clarity and explanation I was looking for not an exoneration of a potential racist slur.
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  #318  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:24 AM
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Treating everyone as if they're the same (and the model they're all the same as is White Cis Hetrosexual Male.) is what's idiotic.
Each individual can be plotted in space on a huge chart of overlapping and interacting bell curves of influences, experiences, beliefs and capabilities. Literally hundreds of them.
In my view, what is idiotic is to believe you know, in advance, which of those factors are most critical to any one individual.
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  #319  
Old 12-01-2019, 12:10 PM
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In my view, what is idiotic is to believe you know, in advance, which of those factors are most critical to any one individual.
I don't pretend to. I do know what's critical to me, and I judge others by their own posts. Including what I remember them posting regarding race, sexism, identity etc.

What I don't pretend to do, is play an impersonal robot on the internet. Because that's worse than idiotic, it's lying to oneself.
  #320  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:18 PM
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I don't pretend to.
Never said you did, and it wasn't my intention to imply it. Some people do though, rather too many to my mind.

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I do know what's critical to me, and I judge others by their own posts.
Exactly my approach.

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Including what I remember them posting regarding race, sexism, identity etc.
and that part is where we differ. I don't care what they've posted previously, I'm only bothered about the points they are making now. What they said previously is open to modification and change and may have been stated at a previous time under different conditions and in a different state of mind. They may simply have been flat-out lying and my recall of exactly what they said, in what context and with what nuance might equally be flat-out wrong.

I've seen far too many people swear blind that they heard/said/saw "X" when the facts are in complete contradiction

So what a poster thought and said then, may not be what they think and say now, I approach the discussions on the now. Every new thread might as well be a whole new set of posters to me. That isn't everyone's way but it is my way and always has been. It works for me.

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What I don't pretend to do, is play an impersonal robot on the internet. Because that's worse than idiotic, it's lying to oneself.
I'm not "playing" or "pretending" anything. I've have neither the skill nor memory to keep up such a consistent approach over a decade. The simplest explanation is the true one. These are really my opinions and this is the honest way in which I approach the board.

Again, you seem to have a problem with someone having a different approach to you and an inability to accept that any other worldview other than yours is either possible or acceptable.
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  #321  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:21 PM
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Well, when you defend/play devil's advocate for some asshole who got banned for a racist jab, I'm gonna think you're an asshole. I don't care about your memory problems.
  #322  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:32 PM
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Again, you seem to have a problem with someone having a different approach to you
I have a problem with it when it conveniently excuses them for standing up for racists but somehow not condemning them until absolutely forced to.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:37 PM
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In a society that was founded with racism as one of its basic values, itís strange how itís the racists who always deserve the benefit of the doubt and the victims of racism that never do.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:31 PM
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In a society that was founded with racism as one of its basic values, itís strange how itís the racists who always deserve the benefit of the doubt and the victims of racism that never do.
Fuck that noise.
  #325  
Old 12-01-2019, 03:06 PM
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I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean.
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  #326  
Old 12-01-2019, 04:44 PM
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Well, when you defend/play devil's advocate for some asshole who got banned for a racist jab, I'm gonna think you're an asshole. I don't care about your memory problems.
I didn't defend them. Read and understand......I didn't defend them.

I thought it was fairly important to know what level of expectation was being placed on posters remembering the personal details of other posters, especially when I do not myself keep that detail of personal information in my head. That was for my benefit and other posters, not the one getting a warning. Which is why my first question was

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Just as a matter of interest, how would any poster know the actual ethnicity of any other poster?
And when Colibri explained the detail behind the warning I said

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If you are that certain then fine
And of course you don't care about my memory problems, Your posts are one long wail of incredulity that anyone can possible have a different mental capability to you. I bet you are one of those people that tell depressed people to cheer the fuck up.
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  #327  
Old 12-01-2019, 04:48 PM
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I have a problem with it when it conveniently excuses them for standing up for racists but somehow not condemning them until absolutely forced to.
Which of the three potential posters are you talking about? the one that did the slur against a black poster or the two that did the slur against white posters?
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  #328  
Old 12-01-2019, 07:17 PM
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Oh fuck you, you didn't defend it. I don't have to play along with your imbecile act.
  #329  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:52 PM
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Which of the three potential posters are you talking about? the one that did the slur against a black poster or the two that did the slur against white posters?
The banned poster, and Unreconstructed Man.

I don't agree margin's post that got you all het up was a slur. It was an accurate statement of fact. I prefer the pithier "white privilege", but hey, I guess you're going to tell me that doesn't exist?
  #330  
Old 12-02-2019, 01:45 AM
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I'm not blind to linguistic history, I'm not unsympathetic to the scourge of racism but nor do I think it productive to take an absolutist stand on a word. Something that.......remember.........never has meaning, only use.

If we are not going down that road and we can have grown up discussions about it. i.e. less of Margin's diatribes (and....mea culpa.....my own very snarky response) then great.

ETA - BigT, I see you responded to my point whilst I was typing this out and I think we are on the same page. We may be grown-ups after all.
What I saw was a hint for why you were arguing so much about what the poster said--you were worried something you had said had come off as racist when that wasn't your intent. So I thought it might be good to reassure you that what you said was different--you didn't use the term as an insult, but as a rhetorical device. It was much less likely to have been interpreted as a racist insult.

I think you assumed people were saying that context was irrelevant. It's not. It's just that the context in Zeke's case leans more towards racism than not, for reasons that people have explained. And my point is that it's up to you to try to avoid being misunderstood as saying something racist, and that, if you do slip up, you'd better apologize as soon as someone takes offense, or else people will assume it was intentional.

All of this said, I don't think margin's post was childish. She was trying to explain that history you mentioned, while also expressing understandable anger. And then she got really angry when you interpreted discussing that history as somehow bigoted. To be honest, that reply almost led to me writing you off, too. It was only seeing that other post that led me to believe this could all be a misunderstanding.

Still, one of the worst ways to respond to someone talking about racism is to say that the argument they are making is the real bigotry. It's a common talking point of racists, so I recommend against it.
  #331  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:02 AM
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I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean.
I think SteveG1 was agreeing with you.

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I don't agree margin's post that got you all het up was a slur.
Neither do I. To review the bidding, here's what margin actually did say in post #243:
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Originally Posted by margin
If you are white and male and the poster you are addressing is anything but, it impossible for you to insult everybody equally.
As I noted in post #264, that's a perfectly fair observation about the realities of historical privilege, and in no way derogatory to white people or men per se.

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Originally Posted by margin
Insults are the cherry on top of centuries of assholes insulting, murdering, raping, enslaving, and disenfranchising black people, women, LGBTQ folks, immigrants, Muslims, -------not to mention shaping the culture so the bigotry's built and mixed in, like eggs in a cake,
Note that again, this is not a condemnation of white people or men per se, but rather of "assholes" who used their superior status to oppress others and made it a foundational element of their culture.

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Originally Posted by margin
and only white dudes, for example, never get accused of lying across the board or being hysterical, like the women who are being accused of just having "bad dates." Religion, culture, law enforcement, justice, all make white men the human against which all others are judged.
Again, this is a perfectly fair though vehement observation about the realities of historical privilege. White men in historically racist and patriarchal societies are accorded the privilege of being the "default human being". The entrenched cultural perception is that being a white man is normal and neutral, whereas being anything else makes you first and foremost the representative of that group.

Now I think these observations aren't the last word on the subject, but could prompt some interesting discussions about how different types of privilege intersect and even cancel out, and the extent to which any particular white man is benefiting from this historical privilege. But instead, look how Novelty Bobble and Unreconstructed Man flipped out about them:

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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble
"sins of our fathers" eh?

What a confused, hateful, bigoted, prejudiced, blinkered, small-minded view of humanity. Try dealing with people based on what they do rather than the historical sins or imagined characteristics of the group you choose to put them in.
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man
margin is a self-hating white. No creature on earth is more cringeworthy. [...]

There’s nothing more abject and cringeworthy than seeing some snivelling, guilt-ridden white woman hating on white people for woke points on the internet. It’s literally the most pathetic thing a person can do.
Acknowledging the historical realities of racism is not somehow being a despicable traitor to "Team White". Shrilly denouncing such acknowledgements as "bigotry" or "guilt" comes across as petulantly touchy at best, and at worst... well, you get the idea.

Last edited by Kimstu; 12-02-2019 at 02:02 AM.
  #332  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:03 AM
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Oh fuck you, you didn't defend it. I don't have to play along with your imbecile act.
I didn't defend what? what are you talking about?
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  #333  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:22 AM
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The banned poster, and Unreconstructed Man.

I don't agree margin's post that got you all het up was a slur. It was an accurate statement of fact. I prefer the pithier "white privilege", but hey, I guess you're going to tell me that doesn't exist?
So you do think that the colour of someone's skin changes the worth of what they say? Isn't there a handy word for that?

As for white privilege, you'll have to tell me how you are using it for me to give you an accurate opinion in your case. It is certainly something that could be used in a racist manner so be careful. (and rememember I said that words have use, not intrinsic meaning)

In the west it is defintely the case that in general people of various ethnicities have been descriminated against far more than the "white" population. It is still the most common and the most pernicious form of racism out there.
If white privilege is merely a recognition of that fact and that white people in general have not be subject to racial discrimination then absolutely I agree. I also think it would be then a useless term to introduce when parsing any individuals words.

What I don't agree is that a specific random "white" person is guaranteed to be any more privileged overall than specific random "ethnic" person, just because of the colour of their skin. That approach is the very worst of identity politics, talking to people as if their "group" matters most. I think the individual matters most and what they actually say and mean matters the most.

If someone says something on racism and prejudice and your first response is to point to their ethnicity as a means of filtering, modifying or weighting their words, that's racism. That was how I interpreted margin's posts. An appeal to skin colour as a means of discrediting a position. That's racism and they were free to clarify but they did not.
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  #334  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:23 AM
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Acknowledging the historical realities of racism is not somehow being a despicable traitor to "Team White". Shrilly denouncing such acknowledgements as "bigotry" or "guilt" comes across as petulantly touchy at best, and at worst... well, you get the idea.
Margin has a history of using ‘white’ as a pejorative. She does so from thread to thread, which you’d know if you’d bothered to read this one properly. Rather than call her on her racism, you’ve chosen to write another smug, pious, boring post complaining about how I did. It’s not the choice I would’ve made, but whatever. Each to their own.

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 12-02-2019 at 03:27 AM.
  #335  
Old 12-02-2019, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
So you do think that the colour of someone's skin changes the worth of what they say? Isn't there a handy word for that?
Yes, it's called "realism". Acknowledging that different people have different life experiences because of the colour of their skin. Often unwanted and imposed on them.

But you wouldn't know any of that, because you don't see colour. Or some such privileged white nonsense.
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As for white privilege, you'll have to tell me how you are using it
Exactly the way margin described it.
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It is certainly something that could be used in a racist manner
Like fuck, it can.
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What I don't agree is that a specific random "white" person is guaranteed to be any more privileged overall than specific random "ethnic" person, just because of the colour of their skin.
Which is not something anyone has said, so that's OK, then.
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If someone says something on racism and prejudice and your first response is to point to their ethnicity as a means of filtering, modifying or weighting their words, that's racism.
Not automatically, no. Like I said, it's just realistic to consider the words of people who've actually suffered oppression to have more weight than those who haven't. Experience gives weight.

White cishet male opinions on racism and misogyny and gender prejudices just don't count as much as others'. And the more they argue that they do, or should, the less they count.

Or to put it another way - Bitch, sit down. Be humble.

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-02-2019 at 04:00 AM.
  #336  
Old 12-02-2019, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Yes, it's called "realism". Acknowledging that different people have different life experiences because of the colour of their skin. Often unwanted and imposed on them.
And a great way to understand those experiences would be to ask the individual. A terrible way would be to assume what they must have experienced because you know what ethnicity they are.

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But you wouldn't know any of that, because you don't see colour. Or some such privileged white nonsense.
To the extent that any human can......yes. Even if it is imperfect is the only honest way I can live. On these boards I make no assumptions. If I knew your ethnicity it would make no difference to my responses to what you've written so far. At the point where I think it would, I'll ask you.

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Exactly the way margin described it.
Yes, a racist usage. A diatribe that seeks to smear any white person as somehow culpable for the crimes of the past and incapable of valuable insight now. Sure, it appeals to historicity and I'm sure Margin can say they were only stating a fact but seeing as we have the ability to look beyond the words themselves to usage and intent I feel confident in saying that it was meant in a racist way. Margin had every chance to clarify and chose not to.

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Like fuck, it can
A term that is explicitly ethnicity based cannot be used in a racist manner? Wow. Chuck a skin colour into any compound pejorative and I'm sure anything can be used as a racial slur.
What is the difference between "white privilege" and "self-hating white" that makes the former immune to the charge but the latter a clear racial slur against a white person?

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Which is not something anyone has said, so that's OK, then.
No, you yourself haven't clearly said that but It certainly seems to be your working assumption. When you throw "white privilege" around that appears to be the way you are using it.

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Not automatically, no. Like I said, it's just realistic to consider the words of people who've actually suffered oppression to have more weight than those who haven't. Experience gives weight.
On a case-by-case basis, not on the basis of skin colour.

Do you accept that a random white person might have more valuable insights on oppression than a random black person?
This is rather a crucial point of difference between us I think.

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White cishet male opinions on racism and misogyny and gender prejudices just don't count as much as others'. And the more they argue that they do, or should, the less they count.
And there we are, You barely even realise you are doing it because it is so comfortable. Your are a seething bundle of prejudiced tension Dibble. You judge people first on what group you choose to put them in, not the qualities of their words or actions.

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Or to put it another way - Bitch, sit down. Be humble.
where "bitch" means "white" I suspect, or whatever group you think currently has no right to access the conch.
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  #337  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Acknowledging the historical realities of racism is not somehow being a despicable traitor to "Team White". Shrilly denouncing such acknowledgements as "bigotry" or "guilt" comes across as petulantly touchy at best, and at worst... well, you get the idea.
I don't think that Margin's post was a sober acknowledgement of historical wrongs. I don't think anyone in this thread needs a history lesson. I think it was a very clear attempt to discredit or diminish the worth of input on the basis of skin colour or ethnicity.

Insert the evil deeds of any other ethnicity into their posts and change "white" to said ethnicity and see if you still think your point stands.

I personally don't hold any any ethnic or national "group" responsible for anything that they didn't directly carry out or endorse. Including my own. I don't hold their opinions or insights in any less esteem now for what their forbears did or thought.

I know, I know, what a crazy wild idea!
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  #338  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
And a great way to understand those experiences would be to ask the individual.
That is the best way, yes, but not the only way.
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A terrible way would be to assume what they must have experienced because you know what ethnicity they are.
I disagree that it's "terrible". It's a little lazy. I can live with that.
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If I knew your ethnicity it would make no difference to my responses to what you've written so far. At the point where I think it would, I'll ask you.
And like I said, that's your privilege to be able to do. Because you're the default.
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Yes, a racist usage. A diatribe that seeks to smear any white person as somehow culpable for the crimes of the past
There was nothing there about culpability.
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and incapable of valuable insight now.
Where did she say anything about incapable?
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Sure, it appeals to historicity and I'm sure Margin can say they were only stating a fact but seeing as we have the ability to look beyond the words themselves to usage and intent I feel confident in saying that it was meant in a racist way.
I feel confident that it wasn't. So where does that leave us?
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Margin had every chance to clarify and chose not to.
Gosh, I wonder what that must be like.
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A term that is explicitly ethnicity based cannot be used in a racist manner?
I wasn't disagreeing, I was emphasising. Anything can be used in a racist manner. Pointing this out is hardly a stunning insight.
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No, you yourself haven't clearly said that but It certainly seems to be your working assumption. When you throw "white privilege" around that appears to be the way you are using it.
No, I'm not using it to refer to that. I'm using it to refer to what margin indicated: "Religion, culture, law enforcement, justice, all make white men the human against which all others are judged."
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On a case-by-case basis, not on the basis of skin colour.
No. I'm not in the business of denying systemic racism exists, thanks.
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Do you accept that a random white person might have more valuable insights on oppression than a random black person?
I accept it's theoretically possible, but consider the probability to be faint enough that I no more consider it than the possibility of imminent death by meteor strike. So it doesn't enter into my posting considerations.
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And there we are, You barely even realise you are doing it because it is so comfortable. Your are a seething bundle of prejudiced tension Dibble.
No.

Prejudice is bias that is not based on reason or actual experience. I have plenty of experience to base my reasoned judgement on.

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You judge people first on what group you choose to put them in, not the qualities of their words or actions.
No, I judge them on their words and actions and their position of privilege on the topic at hand.

Because I'm not moronic enough to think the greater context doesn't matter, and only react to each statement I encounter as some perfect isolated microcosm.

It just so happens that the "words and action" of the privileged group, by their very existence, are discountable. It's the same for men talking about sexism, or straights talking about gay rights. The act of them speaking is what renders them worth less.
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where "bitch" means "white" I suspect
No, it very specifically means you, Novelty Bobble. You're the bitch in that statement.
  #339  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
All of this said, I don't think margin's post was childish. She was trying to explain that history you mentioned, while also expressing understandable anger. And then she got really angry when you interpreted discussing that history as somehow bigoted. To be honest, that reply almost led to me writing you off, too. It was only seeing that other post that led me to believe this could all be a misunderstanding.
I think you are interpreting the words in a very charitable way. Margin had it in their head that I was defending the original slur. I wasn't. My original posts show this wasn't the case, look back at page 4, Margin was spoiling for a fight long before they turned their attention to me. All that was needed to be tried and convicted of racism in their eyes was for me to not agree fully with them.

So, I don't think the reason for the history lesson was to try and teach me anything or remind of anything. I think it was a rather obvious attempt to say "white people did bad things in the past, those bad things are still happening today, you are white therefore you must be bad and your view can be ignored or maligned". I'm struggling to see in the context of that discussion what the purpose was if not that. I may well be wrong but Margin had ample opportunity (and still does now) to say that it wasn't what they meant or intended and to clarify.

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Still, one of the worst ways to respond to someone talking about racism is to say that the argument they are making is the real bigotry. It's a common talking point of racists, so I recommend against it
I don't think it is wise or helpful to let the racists' position dictate what should or should not be challenged, I don't think it leads us anywhere good. You are absolutely right that calling it when you see it has risks but I believe it is far worse to leave it unchallenged.
I find yourself in this sort of Monty Python paradox. Someone who is vehemently against racism (Margin) says something that is pretty obviously prejudicial and racist themselves (but against whites) and anyone who calls them on it (me) is now, by definition, a racist themselves. Even though I alsoagree with the original vehement position on racism against non-whites.
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  #340  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
I wasn't disagreeing, I was emphasising.
So when I said

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It is certainly something that could be used in a racist manner
and you replied

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Like fuck, it can
you were agreeing with me? That seems a perverse usage.

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It just so happens that the "words and action" of the privileged group, by their very existence, are discountable. It's the same for men talking about sexism, or straights talking about gay rights. The act of them speaking is what renders them worth less.
Then there is no common ground here. What you say here was not unexpected but it is depressing nonetheless. I'm fundamentally opposed to your position and seeing as, by your own admission, you'll discount my opinion on any topic for which I don't fit your defined demographic there is literallyliterally nothing left for me to say to you.
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  #341  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
My original posts show this wasn't the case, look back at page 4
You mean when you were pulling your "humans are primates" bullshit?
  #342  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:59 AM
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Is there a point to this relentless fisking?
  #343  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
you were agreeing with me?
Shocking, I know.
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That seems a perverse usage.
Possibly, it might be an idiosyncratic colloquialism. Perhaps if I'd phrased it as "No shit, Sherlock"?
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Then there is no common ground here.
Well, you have no functioning long-term memory and are completely colour-blind, so we clearly see the world in very different ways.
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I'm fundamentally opposed to your position and seeing as, by your own admission, you'll discount my opinion on any topic for which I don't fit your defined demographic there is literallyliterally nothing left for me to say to you.
But I'm sure that's not going to stop you in future.

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-02-2019 at 06:05 AM.
  #344  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
Is
I
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there
have
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a
no
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point
idea
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to
what
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this
you
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relentless
mean
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fisking?
mate.
  #345  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:46 AM
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This is going well.
  #346  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Margin had every chance to clarify and chose not to.
I can't possibly imagine why I wouldn't want to clarify anything to a dude who argues that "primate" isn't racist toward black people while flying a froth-spitting rage on behalf of poor oppressed white people, who have only had centuries of existence to shape religion, law, culture, government, custom, language, law enforcement, and medicine to their advantage.

I guess I must have missed how black people disenfranchised white people for decades after centuries of holding them in grim captivity as slaves. Not to mention all those thousands of lynchings of white people by black people.
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  #347  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
I can't possibly imagine why I wouldn't want to clarify anything to a dude who argues that "primate" isn't racist toward black people
I'll stop you right there.

"primate" can be used in racist way towards black people. You'll find I specifically said that in my initial exchanges and also that I accept the mod's judgement that it was reasonable to consider it as such re: the original warning.

I do maintain that "primate" is not intrinsically racist. It can be used to refer to humans, quite correctly, accurately and usefully in many situations and that even if the humans being referred to have black people among them, it does not necessarily constitute a racist slur. I think you know that is the case and I think you are capable of judging when usage steps over the line into racist slur and when it doesn't. I don't know why you would refuse to acknowledge the fact. It doesn't harm your anti-racist stance one jot.
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 12-02-2019 at 10:18 AM.
  #348  
Old 12-02-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I do maintain that "primate" is not intrinsically racist. It can be used to refer to humans, quite correctly, accurately and usefully in many situations and that even if the humans being referred to have black people among them, it does not necessarily constitute a racist slur. I think you know that is the case and I think you are capable of judging when usage steps over the line into racist slur and when it doesn't. I don't know why you would refuse to acknowledge the fact.
So let's all be clear, you want her to acknowledge it's ok to use "primate" in a textbook or something? And you are pretty sure you know the answer but it's important for some unstated reason that she acknowledges that? That's what you are latched on to?
  #349  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:13 PM
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So let's all be clear, you want her to acknowledge it's ok to use "primate" in a textbook or something? And you are pretty sure you know the answer but it's important for some unstated reason that she acknowledges that? That's what you are latched on to?
No, My first paragraph was a correction and the second is a statement of my opinion.

Margin is free to respond or not, an acknowledgement is irrelvant seeing as we all know that it is true. "primate" can be used towards humans in a racist way and it can be used towards humans in a non-racist way. It is completely banal but it isn't me that has a problem accepting both of those positions. Allowing the latter doesn't weaken the case for the former.
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  #350  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:28 PM
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Fascinating.
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