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  #51  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:33 AM
MeanOldLady is offline
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Originally Posted by Heckity View Post
It would seem they [the assailants] are confused by the difference between 'having sex with' and 'rape'.
No they aren't.
  #52  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:47 AM
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Mod note


Remember, we're in MPSIMS, not the Pit.

If you want to say stuff that belongs in the Pit, start a new thread there and provide a link here.

Thanks,

twickster, MPSIMS moderator
  #53  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
But it is also incumbent upon the 'victims' (the girl, her family and her community) to look within themselves as to how to prevent this sort of shit happening in the future.

This was not a child snatched from a bedroom and taken away to be gang-raped by strangers: this was a child who engaged with her abusers voluntarily, and suffered the worst possible consequences.

Nice victim blaming.
  #54  
Old 03-10-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
This was not a child snatched from a bedroom and taken away to be gang-raped by strangers: this was a child who engaged with her abusers voluntarily
It wasn't voluntary. She was threatened with violence if she didn't comply and she was held against her will.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-10-2011 at 11:51 AM.
  #55  
Old 03-10-2011, 12:24 PM
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Given the comments made by the populace, I'm guessing she didn't report it because she knew the local culture and that she would only get blame, not justice.
  #56  
Old 03-10-2011, 12:30 PM
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For the story in the NYT I can see the reporters problem straightaway. He's got a horrific crime and little to no facts. The only ones who are talking who know anything are the people related in some way to the accused. It's clear from the reporting that he had little info from the police and NO access to the victim or her family. Therefore the story that comes out is going to have things about the victim that are unflattering because that's a basic way people gossip.
If the NYT reporter didn't talk to the victim's family, it's because he's a crap reporter, not that he didn't have access.

Here's an article from the Houston Chronicle, published just the day before NYT piece, that talks extensively with the victim's mother. It includes details about the victim's siblings, their home, their classes, her parents' occupations, the threats they've received since this story went public. The girl herself is currently in protective custody and even her family is not allowed to contact her atm. The Houston reporter also spoke with (but doesn't name of course) the victim's 16yo sister.

So no, it's not just the accused villains who are talking here.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...o/7459716.html
  #57  
Old 03-10-2011, 12:53 PM
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No they aren't.
I'm sorry, what are you saying?

I said they are confused, in that what the assailants did was not "having sex" with that young girl; rather they were raping her. So, in what context do you say they aren't confused?

Confusion in this instance means:

3. " to fail to distinguish between" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/confuse
  #58  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:08 PM
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I the that MOL means they knew damn well they were raping her.
  #59  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Heckity View Post
I'm sorry, what are you saying?

I said they are confused, in that what the assailants did was not "having sex" with that young girl; rather they were raping her. So, in what context do you say they aren't confused?

Confusion in this instance means:

3. " to fail to distinguish between" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/confuse
Yes, I'm aware of the definition. I went to your link and the entire definition of use 3 is "to fail to distinguish between; associate by mistake; confound: to confuse dates; He always confuses the twins." Got it.

The assailants can and have distinguished between the two, but just didn't care. "It would seem they are confused by the difference between 'having sex with' and 'rape'." seems to imply to me that they were incapable of, or at least having difficulty with, making the distinction between the two. Apologies if that was not your intent. Edit: Heh, as always, Dio is succint with his response. Basically, that.

Last edited by MeanOldLady; 03-10-2011 at 01:12 PM.
  #60  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:18 PM
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NYT is taking some well-deserved heat for its portrayal of the victim. Hope it keeps pretty hot for them for a while.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecut...ld-rape-victim
  #61  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
Men are fucking scum.
Uncivilized male humans, and humans in general, are animals armed with very clever brains.

I want to know, where were the men?

Someone asked where the mothers were? Who gives a shit. Those bitches have done quite enough damage to society by shitting these turds out to begin with.

Where were the fucking dads? Where are the older, stronger male influences in these guys lives? There was a 27-year-old present, but he was one of the gang-rapists. Not a good role model.

Where were the good male role models? Do these guys even have dads? What about at school? Do they have male teachers, coaches, counselors, mentors, authority figures?

You let a criminal gang raise human children what you end up with isn't so human.
  #62  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:33 PM
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I am unaware of any legal restriction concerning the identification of the race of the accused in a story about crime (or anything else). There may be ethical concerns that I can see, like only mentioning it if it is germane to the crime somehow, but it's not like identifying rape victims where there are legal restrictions (in some states) that forbid it.
The right wing blogosphere/e-mail forward world is convinced the race angle is germane and that the girl is white. I have no reason to think that's true (or, untrue), but they're having a field day with the black-culture-is-rotten-to-the-core theme.
  #63  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
The assailants can and have distinguished between the two, but just didn't care. "It would seem they are confused by the difference between 'having sex with' and 'rape'." seems to imply to me that they were incapable of, or at least having difficulty with, making the distinction between the two. Apologies if that was not your intent.
That was indeed NOT my intent. I didn't mean to infer that they were incapable of, or at least having difficulty with, the distinction, rather they CHOSE not to distinguish - which is really more inline with your "just didn't care".

Last edited by Heckity; 03-10-2011 at 02:06 PM. Reason: clarification
  #64  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:04 PM
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NYT is taking some well-deserved heat for its portrayal of the victim. Hope it keeps pretty hot for them for a while.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecut...ld-rape-victim
"This poor girl had no decent adult looking out for her" doesn't sound like blaming the victim to me. Blaming the mother - hell yeah, and rightly so.

And the father, who I have no doubt hasn't been in the picture for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huerta88
The right wing blogosphere/e-mail forward world is convinced the race angle is germane and that the girl is white.
I assumed she was black, but I doubt it matters.
Quote:
they're having a field day with the black-culture-is-rotten-to-the-core theme.
I don't know if it is rotten to the core, but I would be willing to bet that most or all of the rapists (alleged rapists, etc.) grew up in a household with a single female parent.

Regards,
Shodan
  #65  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:26 PM
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And the father, who I have no doubt hasn't been in the picture for years.
HouChron article seems to belie that -- it refers to him as an underemployed carpenter IIRC but implies he is around.
  #66  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:30 PM
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Or else they tracked him down for the article.

Regards,
Shodan
  #67  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:33 PM
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Actually, on reading the article you appear to be correct -
Quote:
The stress has grown so intense, the 16-year-old daughter said, that her parents considered separating, while the 11-year-old is having regrets about following through with the case.
My bad.

Regards,
Shodan

Last edited by Shodan; 03-10-2011 at 02:33 PM.
  #68  
Old 03-10-2011, 03:17 PM
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For the story in the NYT I can see the reporters problem straightaway. He's got a horrific crime and little to no facts. The only ones who are talking who know anything are the people related in some way to the accused. It's clear from the reporting that he had little info from the police and NO access to the victim or her family. Therefore the story that comes out is going to have things about the victim that are unflattering because that's a basic way people gossip.
And, to be clear, quoting townspeople who almost excused the men because the girl wore makeup tells us far more about those people's morality, than about the girl's or the reporter's morality. I think the reporter is to be commended, not condemned, for reporting those remarks, and for doing that in straightforward fashion without adding his own editorial opinion.

The implication that he should have selected facts to fit a "correct" scenario seemed quite wrong-minded to me.

And of course there is some age threshold (well above 11), below which sex is always rape regardless of the girl's behavior. (Some girls do appear much older than their true age, but in that small town that girl's age was no secret.)
  #69  
Old 03-10-2011, 03:49 PM
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(I score as Briggs-Meyer INTP-Perceptive while many Dopers are INTJ-Judgmental. That difference shows up over and over in some of these threads.)
I guess that might actually mean something, if the MBTI were in any way a valid scientific instrument, instead of just neo-Jungian hogwash.

</hijack>
  #70  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:03 PM
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I assumed she was black, but I doubt it matters.
She's part of mi gente and there's a racial tone among the locals it appears.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/gang-rape-c...3095476&page=1
  #71  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:10 PM
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As the mother of an 11YO girl (who has been sexually molested), this story makes me somewhat nauseated.
  #72  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:18 PM
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And, to be clear, quoting townspeople who almost excused the men because the girl wore makeup tells us far more about those people's morality, than about the girl's or the reporter's morality. I think the reporter is to be commended, not condemned, for reporting those remarks, and for doing that in straightforward fashion without adding his own editorial opinion.
On today's New York Times editorial page there is one letter to the editor about the news article. Only one letter is needed on the page because the letter writer pointedly addresses the reporting of the news article. The quotes the letter writer addresses were given by neighbors. The argument, I suppose, is that, while the quotes would have been appropriate on the local news TV channel, they are not appropriate in The New York Times. They were included because they are representative of the views of the residents of Cleveland, Texas, not necessarily the views of the reporters of The New York Times.
  #73  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:51 PM
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Nice victim blaming.
Reading for comprehension Dogzilla...try it sometime.

If what we have read is indeed true, then this little girl was a victim long before this despicable crime took place. I would have no compunction in jailing her abusers (and any 'onlookers') for life. They acted like pack animals, and they should be treated as such.

But if she is to get any justice and healing at all, then her family and her community need to take a damned good look at themelves too. Eleven year olds should be climbing trees, making cubby houses and playing with their Barbie dolls, not having sex with an older man. Something went very, very wrong with this little girl, and punishing the men alone is not going to fix it.

Do you get it now?
  #74  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:54 PM
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On second thought, I don't know whether I should take issue with Jinnie Spiegler for writing the letter to the editor or the editor for printing it:

Quote:
While the 18 boys and men charged with the attack were described in innocuous terms except that a few had criminal records, I was shocked to see the article report that town residents said the 11-year-old girl “dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s.”

In any case, the text struck out should have been edited out of the letter.
  #75  
Old 03-10-2011, 05:11 PM
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No Mama, I Wouldn’t Do Something Like That


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Maybe it was, but it doesn't fucking matter. She is the victim. I want to know where the mothers of sick fucking scum who raped her are. That's is a pertinent fucking question. The lack of parental care in the victim's life is neither here nor there. What is the point?

Saying stuff like 'My son said he never touched the girl. He had never been around the girl,” she said. “When it first came out I asked him and he said, ‘No mama, I wouldn’t do something like that.”'

Or, as I prefer to see it, stuff like: 'MysonsaidhenevertouchedthegirlHehadnever beenaroundthegirl,” she said. “WhenitfirstcameoutIaskedhimandhesaid‘Nomama,Iwouldn’tdosomethinglikethat.'


Mamas tend to believe their sons, maybe not their daughters...



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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I'll agree the story raises interesting questions about Cleveland's citizens (one is quoted saying “I really wish that this could end in a better light.”) However I strongly disagree with miss elizabeth's take. I want my journalists to tell as complete a story as they can, not to choose selectively which facts best fit a "correct" perspective and which don't. For example, knowing the races of individuals in the story might add insight, but I don't think reporters are allowed to reveal that.

Ah, I think, despite mainstream media's understandable desire to play down racial elements in crime to promote harmony, a --- perhaps small --- number of people may have got a slender clue by looking at the photographs to work out which social construct the perps belonged to. On the other hand, if 1% of X are raptists that leaves 99% of X who aren't, so it's a bit of a red herring: their actions are more indicative of the culture they as individuals chose to live than of race or poverty.

Looking this up, I did come across one semi-racist site where the scathing comments on these chaps were hilarious.


Quote:
(I score as Briggs-Meyer INTP-Perceptive while many Dopers are INTJ-Judgmental. That difference shows up over and over in some of these threads.)

Welcome, brother.


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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
...but I would be willing to bet that most or all of the rapists (alleged rapists, etc.) grew up in a household with a single female parent.

So did I; *suspiciously* What's your point ?
  #76  
Old 03-10-2011, 05:27 PM
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Did half the town rape this girl?

No, 1/6 of the high school basketball team.
  #77  
Old 03-10-2011, 05:35 PM
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Most men are wannabe rapists? Bullshit.
In UCLA's Neil Malamuth's survey of 1986, 30% of men admitted they would commit rape if they knew there was no chance of getting caught.

When the question posed changed the word 'rape' to 'force a woman into hving sex' the number who answered in the affirmative was over 50%.

A similar survey of Californian teen males found over 50% thought it was acceptable to force a woman to have sex if she "leads him on" or has gotten the man sexually aroused.
  #78  
Old 03-10-2011, 05:57 PM
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So.... "half" then? Still not "most."
__________________
I have only one thing to say about that- Shut up.
  #79  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan
...but I would be willing to bet that most or all of the rapists (alleged rapists, etc.) grew up in a household with a single female parent.
So did I; *suspiciously* What's your point ?
That most of the really fucked-up criminals in America grew up without a father in the home. Or with an abusive father.

I am not accusing you of being a rapist. I am pointing out a correlation.

Regards,
Shodan
  #80  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:33 PM
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His point was people being fucked up is usually because of single mothers.
  #81  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:34 PM
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His point was people being fucked up is usually because of single mothers.
Oh, I took it to mean that he supported gay marriage.
  #82  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:39 PM
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I want to know, where were the men?
Sounds like there weren't any to be found. Otherwise non of this crazy shit would have happened.
  #83  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:41 PM
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It's sickening that so many people are more compassionate toward the accused than toward the victim. I can't imagine what that poor girl went through . . . and what she undoubtedly continues to go through.
  #84  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:10 PM
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What will it take for people to finally say "Okay, that one, she really didn't bring the rape on herself?" I can't believe I'm hearing this about an gang raped 11 year old. There is nothing- nothing- a fourth grader can do to legitimately temp a man into sex. No matter how lost she is, how unsupervised, how scantily clad, every single person on the planet has the responsibility NOT to rape her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
But if she is to get any justice and healing at all, then her family and her community need to take a damned good look at themelves too. Eleven year olds should be climbing trees, making cubby houses and playing with their Barbie dolls, not having sex with an older man. Something went very, very wrong with this little girl, and punishing the men alone is not going to fix it.
What went wrong with her probably involves the first man who ever molested her. I agree that it's a horrible that her childhood was stolen by guys who like to have sex with children.
  #85  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:15 PM
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In UCLA's Neil Malamuth's survey of 1986, 30% of men admitted they would commit rape if they knew there was no chance of getting caught.

When the question posed changed the word 'rape' to 'force a woman into hving sex' the number who answered in the affirmative was over 50%.

A similar survey of Californian teen males found over 50% thought it was acceptable to force a woman to have sex if she "leads him on" or has gotten the man sexually aroused.
I think that is a mischaracterization of the survey results (and I have doubts about the use of surveys for this area anyway). I doubt the survey asked "Do you admit that you would commit rape if you knew there was no chance of getting caught". I don't doubt that most men have the capacity to rape, and that the chance of getting caught factors into that, but that does not mean they will rape, or that they have a desire to rape.

The victim, the rapist's parents, the media, and now men in general. Anybody feel like blaming the rapists?

Last edited by TriPolar; 03-10-2011 at 07:16 PM.
  #86  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:35 PM
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The victim, the rapist's parents, the media, and now men in general. Anybody feel like blaming the rapists?
Can you show me one single person who has not condemned these men for their revolting acts? Just one will do.

Thankseversomuch.
  #87  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:07 PM
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"Great evil" is a bit of a catch-all term. I think its true that most men (and women) would rob another blind if they thought they could get away with it.

Violent rape is another thing altogether, and I don't think most men support it or are capable of perpetrating it. Just my opinion though.


As even sven stated, plenty of people will not only rape, but murder if given a good enough pretext to do so. Indeed, we've seen this again and over again.

That said, I'm wary about this story. This being in a large part due to a French case where eventually 4 people were convicted, out of maybe 20 prosecuted (and it has been made obvious that they had nothing to do with the rapes, it's not an issue of lack of evidences. Some of them had been jailed for years, one had committed suicide)
  #88  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:38 PM
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Can you show me one single person who has not condemned these men for their revolting acts? Just one will do.

Thankseversomuch.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I did mean to imply that others are not to blame.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:39 PM
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I thought the part about the makeup and clothes was to point out the lack of parental care in this girl's life.
I thought the point was to emphasize the essential depravity of the whole town, that such an issue would be raised.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:48 PM
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I thought the point was to emphasize the essential depravity of the whole town, that such an issue would be raised.
That may be. I had only read a skimpy report when I posted that. Not much information was available. But I didn't assume the information was provided to make a 'blame the victim' statement.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:49 PM
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Oh, I took it to mean that he supported gay marriage.
Thank you.
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Sounds like there weren't any to be found. Otherwise non of this crazy shit would have happened.
Thank you very much.
  #92  
Old 03-10-2011, 09:54 PM
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I'm not done with this letter writer.
  #93  
Old 03-10-2011, 09:57 PM
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To the Moderator:

What was disturbing was Jinnie Spiegler's characterization of an 11-year old girl as a "victim". She asked: "How is this relevant except to subtly blame the victim?" A better question is: Why do the town residents hold these views and why doesn't Jinnie Spiegler direct her letter towards the views of the town residents instead of the reporters of The New York Times? In fact, the reporter, James C. McKinley Jr., should be commended for his objective reporting. Even the headline, "Vicious Assault Shakes Texas Town", was prescient.

Kozmik
  #94  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:20 PM
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His point was people being fucked up is usually because of single mothers.
It takes two for a person to raise a kid alone, and the one who is screwing up on the "raising the kid" part usually isn't the one who is actually there, you know, raising the kid.
  #95  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:02 AM
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Nice victim blaming.
That's not victim blaming.

Victim blaming would be "what did she expect - dressing so sexily?"

Recognising that an 11 y.o has no place dating and riding around with a 19 y.o is not victim blaming - it is recognising that there is something wrong in her life.

Identifying that, for whatever reason, her own behaviour is inappropriate for an 11 y.o is discrete and separate from the horror of the rape. To sweep it under the carpet does a disservice to all. What went wrong, why was she doing this, does anybody else bear any culpability for letting the situation arise, is there a culture of little girls dating little men (they are men in age only, not in maturity) in this community that also needs to be addressed.

If you don't allow this discussion, as you don't want to allow you are doing a disservice to the community.

What this poor little girl did makes no excuses for the men, it does not lessen the severity of it, nor the penalities I would like to see them face - but it should be raised and discussed, not hidden from.
  #96  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
It takes two for a person to raise a kid alone, and the one who is screwing up on the "raising the kid" part usually isn't the one who is actually there, you know, raising the kid.
Way to go....men are all arseholes and mothers are never wrong - what a nice subtext to that comment. You have not revealed your biases in the least.
  #97  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:06 AM
D_Odds is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
Way to go....men are all arseholes and mothers are never wrong - what a nice subtext to that comment. You have not revealed your biases in the least.
Only if you believe that men can never be the custodial parent. If you believe that, then your biases are showing. even sven's comment was gender neutral.
  #98  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:10 AM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
That's not victim blaming.

Victim blaming would be "what did she expect - dressing so sexily?"

Recognising that an 11 y.o has no place dating and riding around with a 19 y.o is not victim blaming - it is recognising that there is something wrong in her life.

Identifying that, for whatever reason, her own behaviour is inappropriate for an 11 y.o is discrete and separate from the horror of the rape. To sweep it under the carpet does a disservice to all. What went wrong, why was she doing this, does anybody else bear any culpability for letting the situation arise, is there a culture of little girls dating little men (they are men in age only, not in maturity) in this community that also needs to be addressed.

If you don't allow this discussion, as you don't want to allow you are doing a disservice to the community.

What this poor little girl did makes no excuses for the men, it does not lessen the severity of it, nor the penalities I would like to see them face - but it should be raised and discussed, not hidden from.
This little girl didn't do anything "inappropriate." She was a little girl. She has absolutely nothing to answer for. Your questions about her "behavior" are inappropriate and gross.
  #99  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:16 AM
bengangmo is offline
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Originally Posted by D_Odds View Post
Only if you believe that men can never be the custodial parent. If you believe that, then your biases are showing. even sven's comment was gender neutral.
have you seen the poster's hiostory?

Do you know what proportion of custodial parents are woman?
  #100  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:19 AM
bengangmo is offline
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
This little girl didn't do anything "inappropriate." She was a little girl. She has absolutely nothing to answer for. Your questions about her "behavior" are inappropriate and gross.
So you think its normal and appropriate for an 11 year old to be dating a 19 year old?

Why weren't questions asked about this, from her family, from his friends?

It's a crappy and nasty situation. But to put your fingers in your ears going *blah blah blah* and not address that 11 y.o should not be dating 19 y.o is only looking at half the problem.

I don't need to think it's her fault, or that she bears any blame to recognise that "eh - this situation is not right, how did it come about?"

Sorry ETA - I don't think she has "anything to answer for" in any sense of the word. I do want to know why it was allowed to develop, and who thought it appropriate that she ride around as girlfriend to a 19. y.o

Last edited by bengangmo; 03-11-2011 at 12:21 AM.
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