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  #101  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:42 AM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
So you think its normal and appropriate for an 11 year old to be dating a 19 year old?
She wasn't "dating a 19 year old," she was being sexually abused by a 19 year old.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 12:42 AM.
  #102  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:09 AM
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I think there's a difference between blaming the victim and simply trying to understand how and why something so fucked up happened. No one is excusing the male perpetrators. No one is saying an 11-year-old should be blamed for something like this.

But, it's easy and clear to understand: this girl was the neighborhood gang ho, dressed like a 20yo, and hanging out with the older guys.

Blame her? No. Understand how this happened? When your daughter is the neighborhood gang ho don't be surprised when something really bad happens. What, are we saying 11-year-olds have a right to be the neighborhood gang ho and yet always be treated like proper little ladies? How's that work?
  #103  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:11 AM
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Did you just call an 11 year old girl a "ho?"

Disclaimer: I have an 11 year old daughter and have extremely emotional opinions about this story.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 01:13 AM.
  #104  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:19 AM
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I think that is a mischaracterization of the survey results (and I have doubts about the use of surveys for this area anyway). I doubt the survey asked "Do you admit that you would commit rape if you knew there was no chance of getting caught". I don't doubt that most men have the capacity to rape, and that the chance of getting caught factors into that, but that does not mean they will rape, or that they have a desire to rape.
I don't have the pinpoint cite handy, but it is referenced in Warshaw's book I Never Called it Rape if you want to take a look.
  #105  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:34 AM
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Did you just call an 11 year old girl a "ho?"

Disclaimer: I have an 11 year old daughter and have extremely emotional opinions about this story.
I'm sorry if this is personal for you.

It wasn't her fault. Anyone who had anything to do with her hanging around a gang and people older than herself is wrong. I don't blame her.
  #106  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:48 AM
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I don't doubt that most men have the capacity to rape [...] but...
Really? I do. God knows that rape is incomprehensibly common, but I think you have to be wired all sorts of wrong to be able to get/keep it up in order to force sex on someone.
  #107  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:51 AM
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I don't think that most guys are capable of violent/forcible rape, but I do think that an uncomfortable number are capable of rationalizing it as ok if the victim appears to be compliant, even when they know the compliance is coerced.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 01:52 AM.
  #108  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:52 AM
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You have to differentiate blame from responsibility

For instance, if I walk around Humboldt Park (not a nice area) in Chicago with a bunch of money in my fist and I get mugged, is this my fault?

Of course not, I am a victim of a criminal act.

But most people would place some of the responsibility on me, or "blame" if you prefer.

You certainly don't want to blame any victim, yet some responsibility can be assigned to the victim without blaming them.

In my example, a responsible person would not walk around with money in their fist, in a bad area.

It gets more complicated as we as a society legally shield minors by absolving them of any responsibility. For instance, minors can't sign contracts (except for necessities of life)

Children don't have the life experience to understand fully the consequneces of their actions so aren't held resposible.

But that doesn't mean it isn't a VERY important point to look at this girl's lifestyle.

Why?

To prevent it in others. So other mothers and fathers and people can say, "We need to look at what was going on to prevent it."

No one is saying that if a little girl dresses provacatively she deserves to be sexually assulted but it's worth looking at because, this behaviour has been associated with crimes in the past.

And remember though compassion can be misplaced, it isn't limited. It's quite possible to feel bad for this little girl as well as feel bad for the boys who ruined their lives as well.

OK I don't feel it but some people do, and the two aren't mutually exclusive.
  #109  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:58 AM
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This little girl has neither blame nor "responsibility." She was kidnapped and gang raped. The rapists bear 100% of the responsibility for their crimes, and I don't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for them. I will feel bad if their lives are not destroyed. I only wish we were still allowed to publicly peel the skin off of people.
  #110  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:20 AM
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I don't think that most guys are capable of violent/forcible rape, but I do think that an uncomfortable number are capable of rationalizing it as ok if the victim appears to be compliant, even when they know the compliance is coerced.
Yes, and there are also many other circumstances. I would also modify my prior statement to say that 'most men may think they have the capacity to rape, during some part of their lives'. Some of this may be a healthy fear of allowing their hormones to take control, and some of it may be the result of those hormones. Many of our concepts of right and wrong are also strongly rooted in culture, and many men may be honestly admitting their capacity to hurt others, something they do not do because of the cultural influence. These are only a few of the many reasons why reports of mens capacity to rape can show such high percentages, but at the same time lack conclusive value because of the disparate reasons for the individual reports.
  #111  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:26 AM
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I guess that might actually mean something, if the MBTI were in any way a valid scientific instrument, instead of just neo-Jungian hogwash.
If nothing else, MBTI is what it is. I'm asked questions that test whether I'm "Judgmental" or "Perceptive" and I click on the Perceptive answer.

Unless you claim those terms are meaningless, or that I misclick deliberately to achieve a "desirable" result, then I'm afraid I don't understand your objection.
  #112  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:38 AM
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Perhaps I am missing something... who, other than the residents of the area, is saying anything that could be remotely interpreted as blaming the girl?

The fact that residents of the area are bringing up her clothes speaks to the deep problems there. Of course the article should include those quotes.

This wasn't a random, could-have-happened-anywhere, men-are-evil-walking-time-bombs assault. This community appears to have long been rotten to the core. If anything, this should result in a wider net and harsher punishments, and strong efforts to change the culture so it doesn't happen again. Pretending the culture of the community is irrelevant is harmful and irresponsible.
  #113  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyningablod
I guess that might actually mean something, if the MBTI were in any way a valid scientific instrument, instead of just neo-Jungian hogwash.
If nothing else, MBTI is what it is. I'm asked questions that test whether I'm "Judgmental" or "Perceptive" and I click on the Perceptive answer.

Unless you claim those terms are meaningless, or that I misclick deliberately to achieve a "desirable" result, then I'm afraid I don't understand your objection.
It occurs to me that this exchange may help illustrate the difference between "Judgmental" and "Perceptive."
  #114  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post

Disclaimer: I have an 11 year old daughter and have extremely emotional opinions about this story.
And do you think that you, and you alone have a monopoly on 'extremely emotional opinions about this story' Dio?

Why don't you just get your hackles down for a little while, and actually read/listen to what people here are saying. Nobody is blaming the little girl. Nobody is claiming that she is responsible for what happened. She has suffered a series of abuses that evoke in us a sense of absolute revulsion and loathing for the perps. What they did was unconscionable, and they are not deserving of any consideration as human beings any longer IMHO.

However, and a big however, is that this crime did not take place in a vacuum. This was not a random event that just 'happened'. This little girl was groomed to be a sexual toy of firstly one man, and then later the others. It's important to understand the environment and the circumstances that allowed this to happen.

When my daughter was 11, I knew where she was every minute of the day. There is no way on earth she could have been engaged in a 'relationship' with anyone without my knowledge. So, where were her parents? How was this allowed to happen? Why weren't they keeping tabs on their little girl?

When my daughter was 11, she too wanted to dress up in 'sexy' clothes, because it was so cool. So we had 'dress-up' parties with her friends where they could parade around in skimpy gear with badly-applied make-up. After it was washed off, it was back to normal. No child of mine would be going outside the front door in anything but conventional clothing. So why did her parents allow this?

I would also suggest that it was probably common knowledge in that community that this little girl was the local 'bike'. Why was this kept secret? Why didn't someone, anyone speak up? What makes this community so dysfunctional as to allow the ongoing and systematic sexual abuse of a young child?

THESE are the questions that need to be answered as well as why do some men rape women. This was a crime of opportunity, as depraved and disgusting as it was. These opportunities should never, ever arise in any society, but especially one that is purported to be as enlightened as 21st century America.
  #115  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:43 AM
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Oh, and I forgot to add that apart from the lack of parental concern/supervision and guidance, something else has gone badly awry with this young girl that would see her willingly engage in sexual behaviours. As I mentioned in a previous post, sex is not really all that high on the agenda for most 11 yr olds, and if they are sexually active, it mostly means that there has been some serious fuck-up in their emotional development along the way.
  #116  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
She wasn't "dating a 19 year old," she was being sexually abused by a 19 year old.
I know you read well, and have great comprehension, so you won't missed
Quote:
At least one guy had an on going sexual relationship with this 11 year old before & after the incident.
or

Quote:
The affidavit said the assault started after a 19-year-old boy invited the victim to ride around in his car.
I have a six year old daughter. And an 8 month old.

You think reading stuff like this doesn't scare me? I will be doing absolutely everything I can to keep the clothes, boyfriends and behaviour of my kids "age appropriate". It appears (and I haven't seen so I won't go beyond appears) that this little girl's behaviour was not "age appropriate".

As others have said, that does not lessen the impact of what was done to her, nor the culpability of those who did it. What it does do though is raise questions as to why the community didn't do something about it, why the parent? If anything it widens the culpability to address these questions.

To ignore them or pretend that they are not there doesn't help anyone.

Let's say, (god forbid) that your daughter was sneaking out of the house in slutty clothes and make-up, and your neighbours knew about it. Would it be the responsible thing for them to do to inform you? Would you want to know? I sure as hell would! (aside from the fact we live on the eigth floor and she can't sneak out)

Well why didn't the town act earlier to protect this girl if they knew what was going on, or did they
a) see her behaviour as normal?
b) believe that she deserved what was coming to her?
c) think that 11 year olds should be able to dress and act however they like without ever encountering any negative situations.

None of the above is palatable to me - I don't know about you though.
  #117  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:01 AM
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We may be fighting a losing battle here bengangmo. Once Doggy gets hold of a stick like this, he's loathe to let go. Talk about tenacious....reminds me of a Kelpie we had when I was a kid.

  #118  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:21 AM
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We may be fighting a losing battle here bengangmo. Once Doggy gets hold of a stick like this, he's loathe to let go. Talk about tenacious....reminds me of a Kelpie we had when I was a kid.

Yep, it's sad to me that a community could allow this to happen, both the rape itself and the (supposed) way that the girl was behaving (if it is really as bad as has been reported).

That DTC doesn't seem to be willing to address the second part means that any solution is never going to work.

I guess that phrase about not learning from history damning us to repeating the mistakes would be kinda relevant to bring up here.

Last edited by bengangmo; 03-11-2011 at 05:22 AM.
  #119  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:25 AM
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Heh, glad you fixed that!!
  #120  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:28 AM
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Heh, glad you fixed that!!
Yeah...woulda been kinda a bomb to throw out....if seen by anyone else sincerest apologies....virtual flowers are in the mail.
  #121  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:40 AM
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There seems to be plenty of blame to go around in that strange Texas town. Best might be to look for anyone in the story who doesn't end up smelling like scum.

However,
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
I know you read well, and have great comprehension, so you won't missed
Quote:
At least one guy had an on going sexual relationship with this 11 year old before & after the incident.
Sex between adult and 11-year old girl is always hideous rape, no matter how "willing" that girl might seem to be. I'm shocked that a Doper here seems not to know that.
  #122  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:57 AM
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I don't think that you are wrong, but I understand that child-porn is usually a Federal issue, and so if the teens are found guilty of child-porn charges, it will indeed be a "fucking wake-up call" in that for all intents and purposes, their lives will be essentially destroyed, permanently.

Of course, the teens were apparently complicit in destroying a little 11 year-old girl's life, so it's hard to feel too badly for any of the perps, teens and adults alike, but this won't likely be a slap on the hand in a juvie-court setting that the punk teens could laugh off.

An incredible vile situation, all the way around.
Good. Let's destroy the little bastards' lives. I'm all for that. Since when is rape something that requires a 'wake up call'? I'm not saying that you're saying that, but this case has been minimized all over the Web. It's not something you accidentally do. It's not something you do because you need food or shelter or are righting an injustice. This kid was eleven. Who did the New York Times sympathize with? The rapists. Those poor dears, their lives are all upset and did you read the bit about the football team? Three or four or however many were arrested and the guys were upset. I didn't get the impression they were upset because they were hanging around with child rapists.

I hope these scumbags wind up in jail till they have arthritis. Eleven years old, and she's got people slut shaming her all over the place. Eleven.

Last edited by margin; 03-11-2011 at 07:58 AM.
  #123  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:01 AM
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Ah, once again it's those damn Swedes
  #124  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:42 AM
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There seems to be plenty of blame to go around in that strange Texas town. Best might be to look for anyone in the story who doesn't end up smelling like scum.

However,


Sex between adult and 11-year old girl is always hideous rape, no matter how "willing" that girl might seem to be. I'm shocked that a Doper here seems not to know that.
I didn't post that - I was quoting another post earlier in the thread.

But you are right.

That is kinda the point. How can it be that there is an "ongoing sexual relationship" - as in repeated rapes, and nothing happened earlier?

Why didn't something happen after the first instance? There is all sorts of fucked up going on in the girls life, from her parents, family, siblings, school friends if no one noticed this.

That is the point that is trying to be made. That doesn't place blame on her, it does place some blame on those around her though.

There is also all sorts of fucked up going on from this guy that raped her repeatedly - how did his circle of friends not know this?

Norinew - if you are still here, I hope its ok that I cite your daughter as a girl that "got it right". You taught her well, she had the appropriate knowledge, support, parents and courage to do the proper thing in a horrible situation.

If this poor 11 year old had come from a similiar environment to Norinew's daughter, do you think this situation could ever have arisen?

This is what we should be looking out - learning from this such that parents can equip their kids with the skills to stop it happening from them - just as Norinew did with her daughter.

What the "men" of this town did to that little girl is repugnant in the extreme - however this can't and shouldn't stop us from learning from it for the protection of our own daughters and siblings.

To not learn from it, to say that this poor little girl has total passivity over what happens to her is a cop-out. That does blame her, it merely recognises that there are tools that we can equip our children with to help them avoid such horrible situations.
  #125  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:50 AM
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You have to differentiate blame from responsibility

For instance, if I walk around Humboldt Park (not a nice area) in Chicago with a bunch of money in my fist and I get mugged, is this my fault?

Of course not, I am a victim of a criminal act.

But most people would place some of the responsibility on me, or "blame" if you prefer.

You certainly don't want to blame any victim, yet some responsibility can be assigned to the victim without blaming them.

In my example, a responsible person would not walk around with money in their fist, in a bad area.

It gets more complicated as we as a society legally shield minors by absolving them of any responsibility. For instance, minors can't sign contracts (except for necessities of life)

Children don't have the life experience to understand fully the consequneces of their actions so aren't held resposible.

But that doesn't mean it isn't a VERY important point to look at this girl's lifestyle.

Why?

To prevent it in others. So other mothers and fathers and people can say, "We need to look at what was going on to prevent it."

No one is saying that if a little girl dresses provacatively she deserves to be sexually assulted but it's worth looking at because, this behaviour has been associated with crimes in the past.

And remember though compassion can be misplaced, it isn't limited. It's quite possible to feel bad for this little girl as well as feel bad for the boys who ruined their lives as well.

OK I don't feel it but some people do, and the two aren't mutually exclusive.
You're comparing an eleven-year-old girl to a wad of cash, which is not a human being.

If you want to prevent it, teach your sons not to be rapist scumbags.
  #126  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:53 AM
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I didn't post that - I was quoting another post earlier in the thread.

But you are right.

That is kinda the point. How can it be that there is an "ongoing sexual relationship" - as in repeated rapes, and nothing happened earlier?

Why didn't something happen after the first instance? There is all sorts of fucked up going on in the girls life, from her parents, family, siblings, school friends if no one noticed this.

That is the point that is trying to be made. That doesn't place blame on her, it does place some blame on those around her though.

There is also all sorts of fucked up going on from this guy that raped her repeatedly - how did his circle of friends not know this?

Norinew - if you are still here, I hope its ok that I cite your daughter as a girl that "got it right". You taught her well, she had the appropriate knowledge, support, parents and courage to do the proper thing in a horrible situation.

If this poor 11 year old had come from a similiar environment to Norinew's daughter, do you think this situation could ever have arisen?

This is what we should be looking out - learning from this such that parents can equip their kids with the skills to stop it happening from them - just as Norinew did with her daughter.

What the "men" of this town did to that little girl is repugnant in the extreme - however this can't and shouldn't stop us from learning from it for the protection of our own daughters and siblings.

To not learn from it, to say that this poor little girl has total passivity over what happens to her is a cop-out. That does blame her, it merely recognises that there are tools that we can equip our children with to help them avoid such horrible situations.
I'm getting sort of amazed at how with all this talk about responsibility and 'stop it from happening to them' and 'educating your daughters', nobody's talking about stopping your sons from being rapists.

You know why nobody noticed what was going on? Because raping a kid regularly looked normal. Because as someone upthread said, she 'dressed like a ho'. Because people have this idea that rape is about 'walking around with cash in your hand in a bad neighborhood'----because hoes are that stupid, amirite? huh? amirite?----instead of men and boys who think they're off the hook because it's not rape to rape a 'ho', right?
  #127  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:59 AM
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You're comparing an eleven-year-old girl to a wad of cash, which is not a human being.

If you want to prevent it, teach your sons not to be rapist scumbags.
I can't speak for anyone else, but one hell of a lot of people can and do teach their sons not to be rapist scumbags.

But speaking as a father of two girls, I sure as hell aren't going to rely to the success of other people, what they teach their sons, what values they impart to keep my daughters safe.

I also want to see what I can learn from this poor victim such that I can see what I can take from it to teach my own children.

I say again, to sit here and wring our hands and to say that this is just predestined and there is nothing going on in this girls life, there is nothing she could have done to prevent this is a cop-out. It does a disservice to our commununity.

On a different example, when the twin towers were bombed, did we say "Oh dear, we must teach our kids not to be terrorists" or did we also examine what we can do better as a society to protect ourselves?

So this girl is 11 years old - doe3s that mean we cannot learn anything from her?
  #128  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:59 AM
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Disclaimer: I have an 11 year old daughter and have extremely emotional opinions about this story.
Just want to point out that there's a difference between being emotional about a topic and letting your emotions inform your opinions about the topic. It is possible to be find something horribly troubling, and yet still discuss it with detachment.

I would argue that your real problem is that, at least on this subject, you cannot do this.

As for the subject: what I want to say has already been said. It doesn't matter what the situation: if you are repeatedly the victim of something, then chances are it's not a coincidence, and something else is making it more likely to happen. Rape is not an exception, no matter how emotional we get about it.

In this situation, we need to know what that something is. And, if any of those things are in the control of the girl, then she needs to be taught to control them, as, if nothing changes, she will continue to be more likely to be a victim.

We make a big deal out of blaming the victim, but it's really only an exaggeration of a legitimate concept. That's what makes it so menacing. It is true that, in any situation, how you act can influence your chances to become a victim. The problem only comes when you use that truism to lay more blame on the victim than on the perpetrator. That is blaming the victim.

Teaching someone to avoid being the victim is not blaming the victim. It's taking back control from those who would victimize you.
  #129  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:10 AM
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Children don't have the life experience to understand fully the consequneces of their actions so aren't held resposible.

But that doesn't mean it isn't a VERY important point to look at this girl's lifestyle.

Why?

To prevent it in others. So other mothers and fathers and people can say, "We need to look at what was going on to prevent it."

No one is saying that if a little girl dresses provacatively she deserves to be sexually assulted but it's worth looking at because, this behaviour has been associated with crimes in the past.
Markxxx, my apologies if I've created misunderstandings of your comments through my selective editing - I must look up the proper use of *snip*I think your points are key to keeping our discussion calm and on-track.

I'm truly sorry, Diogenes the Cynic that you have personal experience with such an atrocity against an 11 year-old child. Please know that (and I'm wrongly speaking for everyone here - but I haven't read anything contrary to my point) we are all disgusted, saddened, horrified, and looking for answers to prevent this from happening to anyone's child.

Shaking our fists and railing against the perpetrators of this evil is natural, and understandable but sadly, non-productive. I think at least some of us here have a need to not only express our anger that something so horrendous can happen, but also have a need to understand HOW such a thing happens and do what WE can to take action. There is absolutely no value to blaming a victim, but clearly there were factors that in combination led to this outcome. How do we protect our children if we don't make sense of the factors? I would like to think that in understanding all of the elements that led to the situation we can inform society in our small way and prevent such violence within our communities.

Parents have no small task in raising their children to make decisions that are good for them and staying clear of life-altering threats and risks. The very reason we have laws around the age of consent is recognition of a child's inability to assess future negative outcome.
  #130  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:17 AM
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Just want to point out that there's a difference between being emotional about a topic and letting your emotions inform your opinions about the topic. It is possible to be find something horribly troubling, and yet still discuss it with detachment.
My emotions are not informing my opinions. My opinions are the only ones morally possible. My emotions are simply making it difficult to be patient with all the slut-shaming of an 11 year old girl.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 09:18 AM.
  #131  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:21 AM
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I can't speak for anyone else, but one hell of a lot of people can and do teach their sons not to be rapist scumbags.

But speaking as a father of two girls, I sure as hell aren't going to rely to the success of other people, what they teach their sons, what values they impart to keep my daughters safe.

I also want to see what I can learn from this poor victim such that I can see what I can take from it to teach my own children.

I say again, to sit here and wring our hands and to say that this is just predestined and there is nothing going on in this girls life, there is nothing she could have done to prevent this is a cop-out. It does a disservice to our commununity.

On a different example, when the twin towers were bombed, did we say "Oh dear, we must teach our kids not to be terrorists" or did we also examine what we can do better as a society to protect ourselves?

So this girl is 11 years old - doe3s that mean we cannot learn anything from her?
And yet you totally ignored the part about how rape is not theft, and rape victims are not stupid. Hint: that's how you teach people to be rapists. A woman is not a wad of cash. A girl is not some doofus wandering through a dark alley. Those things indicate what your view of rape is. And it's that kind of thing that led these guys to think they could get away with it.

Yeah, and if an 'awful lot of people' are teaching their sons not to be rapists, how come so many are in fact rapists? But, hey, let's focus on the victim!

Do you not get how monumentally idiotic it is to refuse to look at the person who actually committed the crime for clues as to how to prevent future instances of that crime?

Looking at the victim for 'clues' is looking for what she did wrong. She didn't do anything wrong, because rapists can exploit an awful lot of things. Yet the idea of focusing on men, and seeing what informed their actions is apparently taboo.

Why did no one think it was wrong for a much older boy to repeatedly rape a very young girl? What was the behavior of the rapists prior to and after the rape? What was their mindset? What was their upbringing? And so on. Those are the questions we need to be asking.

Let's face it, 'advice to the victim' has already been done to death. It's not stuff that the rape victim failed to do. it's the actions taken by the rapist. What could have indicated that they were budding rapists?

And if I never see another example of 'waving cash around but I TOTES AM NOT CALLING RAPE VICTIMS STUPID' it'll be too soon. Stop. Think. Do you really want to imply that rape is a result of women being stupid, incautious, provocative, and outright idiotic? Do you want to compare a wallet to a woman?

I'd like some answers because this happens every time rape comes up and that alone indicates that 'tips for the victim' is not constructive.
  #132  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:26 AM
bengangmo is offline
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I'm getting sort of amazed at how with all this talk about responsibility and 'stop it from happening to them' and 'educating your daughters', nobody's talking about stopping your sons from being rapists.

You know why nobody noticed what was going on? Because raping a kid regularly looked normal. Because as someone upthread said, she 'dressed like a ho'. Because people have this idea that rape is about 'walking around with cash in your hand in a bad neighborhood'----because hoes are that stupid, amirite? huh? amirite?----instead of men and boys who think they're off the hook because it's not rape to rape a 'ho', right?
No you're wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Who can I teach? My own two daughters or all of the few billion men in the world?

As an individual father, I am pretty much taking it as a given that my daughters are going to run across some seriously fucked up and nasty bastards - I want to know what she can learn so that this doesn't happen to them.

At the same time, those with sons should be looking at why this "community" of men allowed this to happen in their midst. Why these scumbags could get away with it and what lessons they can take from it.
  #133  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:28 AM
margin is offline
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Just want to point out that there's a difference between being emotional about a topic and letting your emotions inform your opinions about the topic. It is possible to be find something horribly troubling, and yet still discuss it with detachment.


We make a big deal out of blaming the victim, but it's really only an exaggeration of a legitimate concept. That's what makes it so menacing. It is true that, in any situation, how you act can influence your chances to become a victim. The problem only comes when you use that truism to lay more blame on the victim than on the perpetrator. That is blaming the victim.

Teaching someone to avoid being the victim is not blaming the victim. It's taking back control from those who would victimize you.

As long as you think that blaming the victim is basically okay you're blaming the victim. We're not talking about just any situation. We're talking about a situation where the same old tired tropes about 'avoiding being a victim' are trotted out every time---and usually by men.

"Teaching someone to avoid being the victim is not blaming the victim."

Yes, it is. What on earth makes you think that this case was preventable by the 11-year-old victim? And where on earth does one get the arrogance to assume that women are stupid and haven't heard all these tired tips already? Been there. Done that. Studying women ain't working. Sometimes you simply cannot avoid being a victim. That's the choice the victimizer makes.

What DOES work is educating observers. Want to stop rape? Why didn't anybody turn in those rapists? Hm? If so many people are telling their kids not to rape, are they leaving out the crucial act of being an observer and then doing something about it? Are they giving them the same definition of rape that's been trotted out here---stupid woman walking down the street with her wallet hanging out? Because if you read anything about rape, that leaves a lot of actual, real world rapes off the table and that's what a lot of those sons are committing.
  #134  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:43 AM
bengangmo is offline
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
And yet you totally ignored the part about how rape is not theft, and rape victims are not stupid. Hint: that's how you teach people to be rapists. A woman is not a wad of cash. A girl is not some doofus wandering through a dark alley. Those things indicate what your view of rape is. And it's that kind of thing that led these guys to think they could get away with it.

Yeah, and if an 'awful lot of people' are teaching their sons not to be rapists, how come so many are in fact rapists? But, hey, let's focus on the victim!

Do you not get how monumentally idiotic it is to refuse to look at the person who actually committed the crime for clues as to how to prevent future instances of that crime?

Looking at the victim for 'clues' is looking for what she did wrong. She didn't do anything wrong, because rapists can exploit an awful lot of things. Yet the idea of focusing on men, and seeing what informed their actions is apparently taboo.

Why did no one think it was wrong for a much older boy to repeatedly rape a very young girl? What was the behavior of the rapists prior to and after the rape? What was their mindset? What was their upbringing? And so on. Those are the questions we need to be asking.

Let's face it, 'advice to the victim' has already been done to death. It's not stuff that the rape victim failed to do. it's the actions taken by the rapist. What could have indicated that they were budding rapists?

And if I never see another example of 'waving cash around but I TOTES AM NOT CALLING RAPE VICTIMS STUPID' it'll be too soon. Stop. Think. Do you really want to imply that rape is a result of women being stupid, incautious, provocative, and outright idiotic? Do you want to compare a wallet to a woman?

I'd like some answers because this happens every time rape comes up and that alone indicates that 'tips for the victim' is not constructive.
Psst - I didn't compare anyone to a wad of cash, so please don't throw around that broad brush ok?

Also, rape being the result of being "incautious" - YES, sometimes it is, just the same way that sometimes when men get violently mugged it is because they were incautious, or stupid or whatever.

Attitudes like yours take power away from women, they tell us that women are some sort of passive little flowers that have things done to them, not people that can take control of themselves and influence what happens around them.

I'll try a different tack.

You know what I spent the last 45 minutes doing? Changing the passwords to my emails, forums and facebook. Why? Because I suspect that my boss might have installed a keylogger on my work computer.

Now, I have taken action to protect myself. Should I have to, or should his mother have taught him not to be a wanker?

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.

But let me ask you, which is better - a few minor steps of prevention now and "keeping myself safe" or coming and starting a pit thread in two weeks bemoaning the dishonesty of that arsehole.

Isn't the answer obvious?

Would it have been "victim blaming" to ask me why I didn't change my passwords or sage advice?

Things don't "just happen". There are many complex reasons why. Why did this girl think it ok to drive around with a 19 year old, why did his friends let it happen, why did she end up being so reluctant to report it, why did it get reported by a fine upstanding student at the school.

We can think about all this, or we can throw up are hands, cop-out and say - teach your sons not to be rapists.

Well I tell you something - if I had a son I would. I DO teach my nephew to have the courage of his convictions if that makes a difference to you at all.
  #135  
Old 03-11-2011, 09:51 AM
bengangmo is offline
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
As long as you think that blaming the victim is basically okay you're blaming the victim. We're not talking about just any situation. We're talking about a situation where the same old tired tropes about 'avoiding being a victim' are trotted out every time---and usually by men.

"Teaching someone to avoid being the victim is not blaming the victim."

Yes, it is. What on earth makes you think that this case was preventable by the 11-year-old victim? And where on earth does one get the arrogance to assume that women are stupid and haven't heard all these tired tips already? Been there. Done that. Studying women ain't working. Sometimes you simply cannot avoid being a victim. That's the choice the victimizer makes.

What DOES work is educating observers. Want to stop rape? Why didn't anybody turn in those rapists? Hm? If so many people are telling their kids not to rape, are they leaving out the crucial act of being an observer and then doing something about it? Are they giving them the same definition of rape that's been trotted out here---stupid woman walking down the street with her wallet hanging out? Because if you read anything about rape, that leaves a lot of actual, real world rapes off the table and that's what a lot of those sons are committing.
Well perhaps some people haven't learned how not to be a victim yet. Maybe this girl wasn't taught appropriately in the home.

We have an example on this board of one girl that did everything right - that was taught the right things and did them properly, this kept her from being a serial victim.

We have, in this instance, a girl that was terribly victimised. Can't we look at why?

I suspect that the dressing, such as it was, is a symptom rather than a cause of her victimisation. One suspects that part of the reason it continued is that she was sexualised inappropriately young. I would think this is something that DtC can identify with.

Would he let his daughter out of the house dressed like a 20 y.o college student looking to get laid? One doubts it. Is she better protected against becoming a victim? One would think so - but its not JUST the dressing, its a whole world view.

There's a whole segment of the community that failed here, both in protecting this poor girl, and also in teaching the perpetrators of the crime the wrong value. Both sides can be addressed.
  #136  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:01 AM
margin is offline
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Psst - I didn't compare anyone to a wad of cash, so please don't throw around that broad brush ok?

Also, rape being the result of being "incautious" - YES, sometimes it is, just the same way that sometimes when men get violently mugged it is because they were incautious, or stupid or whatever.
Don't you dare compare rape to anything else, for starters.

Quote:
Attitudes like yours take power away from women, they tell us that women are some sort of passive little flowers that have things done to them, not people that can take control of themselves and influence what happens around them.
That is complete and utter idiocy. Have you so much as READ a book about rape? Listen carefully, because I didn't say any of that, and to be criticized for doing what YOU are doing is rich indeed.

1. You're not the first person to try this tack. It's stupid. Stop it.
2. So many rapes are successfully completed because there are so many men trying it.
3. I can predict the advice you'll give. Let me guess. No dark alleys, unattended drinks, short skirts, or making out?
4. You conceive of rape as being the result of the failure of the victim to adequately protect herself, not the result of the rapist's successful breaking of her defenses.
5. You assume that women do absolutely nothing to protect themselves from rape, that this victim had numerous opportunities to protect herself---and did not. Do you not see that is stupid and insulting?
Quote:

You know what I spent the last 45 minutes doing? Changing the passwords to my emails, forums and facebook. Why? Because I suspect that my boss might have installed a keylogger on my work computer.

Now, I have taken action to protect myself. Should I have to, or should his mother have taught him not to be a wanker?
Have you suffered a head injury recently?

Quote:
But let me ask you, which is better - a few minor steps of prevention now and "keeping myself safe" or coming and starting a pit thread in two weeks bemoaning the dishonesty of that arsehole.
Your analogy is stupid and irrelevant. So you're whining that I misattributed a quote to you and yet you come up with another incredibly stupid example on your own?

You're basically ignoring everything I've said. Do you have any IDEA what women do every day to protect themselves? The fear that women live with? And yet you're comparing your paranoid fantasies about your alleged boss to a problem that you apparently haven't read a single book about? I have a news flash for you: women have already heard all this advice. Your little tips are stupid, trite, and have been done before.

Quote:
Things don't "just happen". There are many complex reasons why. Why did this girl think it ok to drive around with a 19 year old?
Victim blaming. Blatant victim blaming.

Quote:
We can think about all this, or we can throw up are hands, cop-out and say - teach your sons not to be rapists.

Well I tell you something - if I had a son I would. I DO teach my nephew to have the courage of his convictions if that makes a difference to you at all.
Once again, you assume that the GIRL did something wrong, that women are stupid and don't protect themselves at all, and that rapes are somehow committed in such a fashion that the rapist will be clearly marked and delineated, that rape is a situation that is easily and simply prevented, and that, oh yeah, the rapist will not be someone whom the victim can easily identify or resist. Your entire post was pretty much mansplaination, and unless you start listening and learning, I'm done with you.
  #137  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:29 AM
norinew is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo
Norinew - if you are still here, I hope its ok that I cite your daughter as a girl that "got it right". You taught her well, she had the appropriate knowledge, support, parents and courage to do the proper thing in a horrible situation.
I'm still here, and yes, it's fine if you cite mudgirl as a girl that "got it right"; she got it right largely because she has a good internal moral compass, she knows what's right and what's wrong, and she's very brave. But she got it right in part because she was taught that it's never OK for other people to touch you in ways that make you uncomfortable, especially when there's genitalia involved. And she was taught, well and often, that she could come to her father and me about anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by margin
"Teaching someone to avoid being the victim is not blaming the victim."
I think what we're really talking about here is teaching someone that they can stop being a victim. This little girl had an "ongoing sexual relationship" with someone before the rapes. You know what? At age 11, I was in the same situation, since I was serially sexually molested by a man who lived in our house from the time I was 7YO. If you wanted to, you could have called that "an ongoing sexual relationship"; it was certainly sexual in nature, even if he was the only one getting his rocks off on it. But when I explained my situation to a school counselor (around 1975), all I was told was "talk to your mother about it", which I did, but it didn't do any good, since my mother already knew about it, and wasn't willing to take measures to stop the situation. BUT things have changed. Laws have changed. These things are taken seriously these days. If a teenage girl went to a school counselor now and told the counselor they were being sexually abused at home and had been for years, they'd likely be removed from the home while a complete investigation was done. This is what we need to be teaching our daughters.

Look, I'm all in favor of mothers teaching their sons not to be rapist, child-abusing scums. But some mothers aren't doing that. And maybe some mothers are trying their best to do that, but the sons aren't listening. Saying that teaching our daughters not to be victims is the same as blaming the victim is like saying you shouldn't have to lock your door at night, because everyone else's mother should have taught their kids not to go into other people's homes uninvited.
  #138  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:42 AM
margin is offline
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Look, I'm all in favor of mothers teaching their sons not to be rapist, child-abusing scums. But some mothers aren't doing that. And maybe some mothers are trying their best to do that, but the sons aren't listening. Saying that teaching our daughters not to be victims is the same as blaming the victim is like saying you shouldn't have to lock your door at night, because everyone else's mother should have taught their kids not to go into other people's homes uninvited.
How many women get victimized after doing all the right things? Hm? How come fathers are never put in the position of teaching their sons not to be rapists, because the sons might listen to them? The thing is, not enough people are educating their sons because they're raping an awful lot of women and girls, and some of them do it repeatedly. If people are really telling men not to commit rape, then they're not getting the message and instead of throwing our hands up and going, "Boys will be boys!" maybe we should ask why that is. No, let's focus on the victim at all costs. Because women are so stupid that they wander around waving wads of cash around in bad neighborhoods. They never protect themselves, right?

Telling women and girls stupid, feel good crap like "choose not to be victim" is, well, stupid because, what, does anybody think there's a choice? "Oh, let me see: victim or non-victim, which one? Tough choice!" It also ignores the fact that sometimes you simply have no choice. But let's ignore that, okay? It's so ugly and it interrupts the victim blaming.

And once again, and again, and again, and again, if you want to understand rape, how come you're not talking about rapists? The fact that people dismiss this out of hand as an unrealistic fantasy says volumes. Let's study the rapists. It has been done.

Patronizing advice about how to 'choose not to be a victim' assumes that women get raped because they're stupid and reckless. Saying that men already know not to rape, can't do anything about the ones that do, to the point that you refuse to entertain the notion of studying them, is a refusal to take actual steps that would reduce rape.

During a string of rapes in Israel, Golda Meir was advised to put a curfew on women. "Why women? They're not committing the rapes."

This thread is advising women to curfew themselves. So much for that fighting ignorance.

Oh, and something else, too. "Choosing not to be a victim" is trite and ineffective. How come so many men commit so many rapes? Well, one could blame several things:

1. The advice is good, the execution is flawed. That's blaming the victim.
2. The advice is flawed, and therefore does not protect victims.


That so many men commit rape so many women, so many of whom are taking extraordinary measures to defend themselves, indicates that we need to try new things. Or we can blame the victim for not following the same old crap advice. Ignoring the fact that many women and girls choose NOT to be victims and yet are still victimized indicates that helping victims is not the primary motive.

Last edited by margin; 03-11-2011 at 10:47 AM.
  #139  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:57 AM
Lady of the Lake is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
Well why didn't the town act earlier to protect this girl if they knew what was going on, or did they
c) think that 11 year olds should be able to dress and act however they like without ever encountering any negative situations.
Er...I'm not a town folk, but yeah, I think that 11 year olds should be able to dress and act however they like without ever being gang raped. Nothing they can ever do should ever result in a gang rape.

And I know 'people aren't blaming the victim' in this thread..but people in this thread have claimed they are not blaming the victim and then called an 11 year old a ho. Fuck that.
  #140  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:01 AM
bengangmo is offline
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My alleged boss? If you want to call me a liar at least have the courage to do it. Alleged boss? What the fuck is that?

Rape can't be compared to anything? Why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by margin View Post
Don't you dare compare rape to anything else, for starters.



That is complete and utter idiocy. Have you so much as READ a book about rape? Listen carefully, because I didn't say any of that, and to be criticized for doing what YOU are doing is rich indeed.

1. You're not the first person to try this tack. It's stupid. Stop it.
2. So many rapes are successfully completed because there are so many men trying it.
3. I can predict the advice you'll give. Let me guess. No dark alleys, unattended drinks, short skirts, or making out?
4. You conceive of rape as being the result of the failure of the victim to adequately protect herself, not the result of the rapist's successful breaking of her defenses.
5. You assume that women do absolutely nothing to protect themselves from rape, that this victim had numerous opportunities to protect herself---and did not. Do you not see that is stupid and insulting?


Have you suffered a head injury recently?



Your analogy is stupid and irrelevant. So you're whining that I misattributed a quote to you and yet you come up with another incredibly stupid example on your own?

You're basically ignoring everything I've said. Do you have any IDEA what women do every day to protect themselves? The fear that women live with? And yet you're comparing your paranoid fantasies about your alleged boss to a problem that you apparently haven't read a single book about? I have a news flash for you: women have already heard all this advice. Your little tips are stupid, trite, and have been done before.



Victim blaming. Blatant victim blaming.



Once again, you assume that the GIRL did something wrong, that women are stupid and don't protect themselves at all, and that rapes are somehow committed in such a fashion that the rapist will be clearly marked and delineated, that rape is a situation that is easily and simply prevented, and that, oh yeah, the rapist will not be someone whom the victim can easily identify or resist. Your entire post was pretty much mansplaination, and unless you start listening and learning, I'm done with you.
  #141  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:03 AM
even sven is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
Attitudes like yours take power away from women, they tell us that women are some sort of passive little flowers that have things done to them, not people that can take control of themselves and influence what happens around them.
She is 11 years old. She is a passive little flower. For fuck's sake, did all those raped alter boys have a responsibility to protect themselves from the priests? Didn't they know that going into a room with them was like walking down the street flashing a wad of cash? These are small children. She'd probably never even had her period.

Anyway, I agree that there are things society can do to protect it's children, but it's also not useful to place all the blame on Mommy Dearest. Neglectful parents are out there. They always will be. No amount of cluck clucking or finger waving will make every parent be responsible. And there are predators who will keep a special eye out for the daughters of neglectful parents.

We can, as a society, make changes to lessen the risk. How many of you supported welfare-to-work without thinking too hard about who is going to take care of these parent's children? What do you think happens when you have to take two jobs to survive? A babysitter costs more than they would make an hour. Why don't we realize we all need to make sure our community's kids are supervised? We need sports teams and after school programs. We need community groups that identify and act on gang problems. We need drug rehabilitation for those that need it, and real mental health services. Maybe then, we can start taking community measures.
  #142  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:04 AM
margin is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
My alleged boss? If you want to call me a liar at least have the courage to do it. Alleged boss? What the fuck is that?

Rape can't be compared to anything? Why not?
Did you get penetrated anally or vaginally by your boss? Oh, wait, that's really not a risk you face. Did you get forced to perform oral sex? Did you get raped by multiple assailants, repeatedly, in every orifice? Did you do this in a culture where rape victims get blamed at every opportunities, and still are to this day? I mean, that's just the most obvious, glaring flaws in your idiotic minimizing example.
  #143  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Lady of the Lake is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
Well perhaps some people haven't learned how not to be a victim yet. Maybe this girl wasn't taught appropriately in the home.
One should be focused on stopping the RAPIST. One should be focused on teaching others not to RAPE.

Not 'oh...this girl just needs to be trained not to be a victim.'

I mean....your thought process on this is the same as people who think women should be in burqas so as not to tempt men to rape them by flashing a sexy, sexy ankle. It's focusing on what the victim to should have done, not on what the rapist actually DID.
  #144  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:14 AM
Dogzilla is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
That's not victim blaming.

Victim blaming would be "what did she expect - dressing so sexily?"

Recognising that an 11 y.o has no place dating and riding around with a 19 y.o is not victim blaming - it is recognising that there is something wrong in her life.

Identifying that, for whatever reason, her own behaviour is inappropriate for an 11 y.o is discrete and separate from the horror of the rape. To sweep it under the carpet does a disservice to all. What went wrong, why was she doing this, does anybody else bear any culpability for letting the situation arise, is there a culture of little girls dating little men (they are men in age only, not in maturity) in this community that also needs to be addressed.

If you don't allow this discussion, as you don't want to allow you are doing a disservice to the community.

What this poor little girl did makes no excuses for the men, it does not lessen the severity of it, nor the penalities I would like to see them face - but it should be raised and discussed, not hidden from.
The kid was coerced into the car. She didn't jump in just to joy ride voluntarily. She was told she'd be beaten if she didn't comply. Calling her own behavior inappropriate implies that she asked for it and that is blaming the victim.
  #145  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:23 AM
Nzinga, Seated is offline
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...And remember though compassion can be misplaced, it isn't limited. It's quite possible to feel bad for this little girl as well as feel bad for the boys who ruined their lives as well...
Bingo.

By the way, I find it fascinating that many people have been saying, 'oh, these poor little black kids are from the ghetto and don't have fathers and that is why this is happening" I've been hearing a lot of that at work. I haven't bothered to say anything to them, but I really do think it is interesting that folks have been chalking this up to a ghetto problem. I know the ghetto. I am friends with the ghetto. Regular gang rape of 11 year olds, sir, is not the ghetto.

If someone says, "oh, these poor black fatherless kids end up on crack or murdering or selling drugs or being theives" I can understand that, heaven help us. But gang rape? I would call that a horrible, awful anomaly. Not a result of poor black fatherless ghetto kids.

My heart breaks for that baby. To have to endure the hard life of being an 11 year old girl in such an environment that such a thing can happen...then have it happen, then have to deal with people judging you for the terrible thing that happened to you. Geez.

ETA: ...and Markxxx, I realize that you DID NOT say you have compassion for the boys. I am only speaking for myself. The way I snipped your quote didn't make that clear.

Last edited by Nzinga, Seated; 03-11-2011 at 11:26 AM.
  #146  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
We may be fighting a losing battle here bengangmo. Once Doggy gets hold of a stick like this, he's loathe to let go. Talk about tenacious....reminds me of a Kelpie we had when I was a kid.

Dogzilla is female and a rape/abuse survivor.

My opinions are based on personal experience. No 11-year-old is emotionally or mentally capable of engaging in a "relationship" with a 19-year-old. That was abuse, plain and simple.

Yes, the environment that fostered this abusive situation should be examined. I think there are probably very good reasons the poor child is separated from her family, but I am not convinced that separation is really in her best interests. I do acknowledge that the parents gave up an epic FAIL for being unable to keep their child safe.

But she didn't do a goddamn thing wrong. Her behavior is above reproach, IMO, in this case.
  #147  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:24 AM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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The statement that one victim "did everything right and proper implies that this other victim did everything "wrongly and improperly."

The only people who have any responsibility in these acts are the rapists.
  #148  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:27 AM
Lynn Bodoni is offline
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I think that we have already done about as much educating about "not being a victim" as it's possible to do. Now we need to start educating on "don't rape, don't be a party to rape, and don't just stand by and let a rape happen". These guys apparently not only felt that it was OK to rape a little girl, but they felt that it was OK to rape in a group, and it was OK to just let the rapes happen.

People need to quit covering up for rapists. http://www.concordmonitor.com/articl...then-relocated A 15 year old was repeatedly raped by a prominent church member, and when she got pregnant by him, he apologized to the membership for cheating on his wife, while she apologized for getting pregnant. She was forced to move to another state, and nobody reported the rape to the legal authorities. And do I need to bring up a prominent Christian church that has frequently been in the news for systematically moving pedophiles from one parish to another, in order to cover up the problem?

We also need to quit slapping rapists on the wrist. We need to treat rape as a SERIOUS CRIME. Sometimes rapists are given long sentences. Too often, they plead to a much lesser offense and don't even serve any time. College rapists, for instance, just get suspended for a little bit. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...24111931&ps=rs

I think that MOST men would not rape. But there are enough that will rape. And there are enough that might not commit rape themselves, but they'll look the other way when someone is being sexually assaulted. "Bros before hos" and all that.
  #149  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:45 AM
levdrakon is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady of the Lake View Post
Er...I'm not a town folk, but yeah, I think that 11 year olds should be able to dress and act however they like without ever being gang raped. Nothing they can ever do should ever result in a gang rape.

And I know 'people aren't blaming the victim' in this thread..but people in this thread have claimed they are not blaming the victim and then called an 11 year old a ho. Fuck that.
I said she was allowed to become the neighborhood gang ho. I also said she's too young to be held responsible for that, or to be blamed for that. It is what it is. Pretend I said, "she was allowed to become the neighborhood molestation and rape victim."

It is what it is. What it is not, is blaming the victim.
  #150  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:45 AM
villa is offline
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Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni View Post
We also need to quit slapping rapists on the wrist. We need to treat rape as a SERIOUS CRIME. Sometimes rapists are given long sentences. Too often, they plead to a much lesser offense and don't even serve any time. College rapists, for instance, just get suspended for a little bit. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...24111931&ps=rs
There is a huge dilemma here. Rape is an incredibly difficult crime to prosecute. The conviction rate is low. Even sympathetic prosecutors will often cherry pick the most "sympathetic" cases. Very often, the plea bargain is seen as the only way of getting a conviction at all.
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