#151  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:50 AM
norinew is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wilds of WV
Posts: 10,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
The statement that one victim "did everything right and proper implies that this other victim did everything "wrongly and improperly."

The only people who have any responsibility in these acts are the rapists.
I would respectfully disagree with you about responsibility. First, let me make this statement, and make it clearly: The rape victim is not at fault; no one should bear responsibility for making sure they are not raped. That is unequivocal.

However the fact that an 11YO girl had an 'ongoing sexual relationship' with an adult would lead me to believe that there were many people who failed her far before the rapes took place. Apparently, she never got the message that certain types of physical contact are not OK, and may, at some point, have even gotten the message that those same types of physical contact can work in your favor. Whatever her prior situation, it seems to me that she had no one she felt comfortable and safe confiding in. If that is, indeed, the case, then the people who are responsible for being her support system do, indeed, bear some of the responsibility.
  #152  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
She did not have "an ongoing sexual relationship with an adult." She was sexually abused by an adult, and he probably wasn't the first one. Characterizing it as a "relationship" is offensive.
Quote:
Apparently, she never got the message that certain types of physical contact are not OK
Someone should have told her it wasn't "ok" for her to get sexually abused. What the hell? It's not like she ever had any choice in the matter.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 12:00 PM.
  #153  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
I said she was allowed to become the neighborhood gang ho.
There is no such thing as an 11 year old "ho."
  #154  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:03 PM
Lynn Bodoni is offline
Creature of the Night
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 20,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by villa View Post
There is a huge dilemma here. Rape is an incredibly difficult crime to prosecute. The conviction rate is low. Even sympathetic prosecutors will often cherry pick the most "sympathetic" cases. Very often, the plea bargain is seen as the only way of getting a conviction at all.
Did you even read my cite? Yeah, sometimes a rape case is very much a case of "he said she said", but when one man has had more than one woman accuse him of rape/sexual assault, maybe, just maybe, he's sexually assaulting women.
  #155  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:14 PM
villa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni View Post
Did you even read my cite? Yeah, sometimes a rape case is very much a case of "he said she said", but when one man has had more than one woman accuse him of rape/sexual assault, maybe, just maybe, he's sexually assaulting women.
I agree with you, and yes I read the cite. I know that there are some prosecutors who are lax on sexual assault crimes. I also know there are others who very often take what they can get in situations. I also know the difficulty of getting other accusations introduced into evidence.

The judicial system isn't perfect. A prosecutor may be faced with an awkward choice of taking a plea or getting nothing (or may make said decision based on less respectable grounds). Because of the unwitnessed nature of the overwhelming majority of rapes, and the absence of conclusive physical evidence, conviction is going to be often very difficult.

Evidence laws are already different when it comes to crimes of sexual assault, with good historic reason. The question we face is how much different do we want to make them in order to ease conviction. Defendants for any crimes have rights.
  #156  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Mauvaise is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Luriekistan
Posts: 2,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
She did not have "an ongoing sexual relationship with an adult." She was sexually abused by an adult, and he probably wasn't the first one. Characterizing it as a "relationship" is offensive.
Thank you! An 11-year old is utterly incapable of having an ongoing sexual relationship with an adult. There is absolutely no situation where such a "relationship" isn't sexual abuse/molestation of the 11-year old child.

This was not the case here, but I do not care if an 11-year old child stripped down and begged to have sex - if an adult follows through, that is sexual abuse and rape.

I don't understand why any one is even debating this. It doesn't matter where her parents were, it doesn't matter why she initially got in the car with a 19-year old, it doesn't matter how she dressed, or if she wore make up.

This whole thing is disgusting and I'm with those that not only don't care if the people responsible for this reprehensible crime have their lives destroyed but actively wish for it. After conviction they should be branded with "Child Rapist" on their foreheads.

  #157  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:28 PM
levdrakon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
There is no such thing as an 11 year old "ho."
Okay, I think I know where you're coming from now. What if I said, "11-year-old prostitute."

You would say, "there is no such thing as an 11 year old prostitute."

You would be correct. And not. Warning: another very disturbing, heinous sexual crime, At 11, the Youngest Prostitute.

The little girl in the story is made to be a prostitute. She is also referred to as the victim. But she was still a prostitute. That's what was done to her. It is what it is.*

I actually hate the term "it is what it is" but it seems appropriate here.
  #158  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:37 PM
yojimbo's Avatar
yojimbo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 9,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauvaise View Post

I don't understand why any one is even debating this. It doesn't matter where her parents were, it doesn't matter why she initially got in the car with a 19-year old, it doesn't matter how she dressed, or if she wore make up.
Indeed. If I rocked up to take an 11 year old out for a date and she was very excited and was telling all her friends how great I am and she soo happy to be in a relationship with me, people should want to fucking lynch me for the abusing child raping motherhumper that I am.

The only type of "relationship" here was an abusive and repulsive one and the poor 11 year girl doesn't have any kind of tools to deal with it or be responsible in any way.
  #159  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:57 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Okay, I think I know where you're coming from now. What if I said, "11-year-old prostitute."

You would say, "there is no such thing as an 11 year old prostitute.
Still no such thing. "Prostitute" implies a choice. There are children who are sold sexually for money, yes, but they are slaves, not prostitutes.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 12:58 PM.
  #160  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:09 PM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 20,458
Calling it "slavery" should certainly help soften the race angle...
  #161  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:10 PM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 40,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by margin View Post
How many women get victimized after doing all the right things? Hm?
Fewer than if they did all the wrong things. That's not blaming the victim; it is the recognition of an obvious reality.
Quote:
How come fathers are never put in the position of teaching their sons not to be rapists, because the sons might listen to them?
Fathers are always put in that position. That is one of the things that fathers are for. Some fathers abandon this responsibility, or carry it out badly. Such people should be condemned. A man who shirks his responsibilities towards his children is not a man.
Quote:
The thing is, not enough people are educating their sons because they're raping an awful lot of women and girls, and some of them do it repeatedly.
Absolutely correct. Much of the time, fathers are abandoning their responsibilities towards their children. We need to do much more in this society to promote healthy, two-parent families.
Quote:
If people are really telling men not to commit rape, then they're not getting the message and instead of throwing our hands up and going, "Boys will be boys!" maybe we should ask why that is.
This is a strawman - no one in this thread has said anything remotely similar to "boys will be boys'.
Quote:
No, let's focus on the victim at all costs. Because women are so stupid that they wander around waving wads of cash around in bad neighborhoods. They never protect themselves, right?
This case does not involve a woman. Eleven year old children can be pretty stupid, though. That's why adults have to be responsible for them, to teach them how to behave, and to keep an eye out when they are running into danger. No one seems to have done that for this girl. Is that her fault? Of course not - she is eleven years old, and is not responsible for herself.

Quote:
This thread is advising women to curfew themselves.
I think a curfew for the eleven year old would have been a great idea. Don't you?

Regards,
Shodan
  #162  
Old 03-11-2011, 01:12 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
I don't think a curfew would have made any difference. She was kidnapped.
  #163  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:00 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by yojimbo View Post
The only type of "relationship" here was an abusive and repulsive one and the poor 11 year girl doesn't have any kind of tools to deal with it or be responsible in any way.
AT 11, I was an accomplished shoplifter. I had also avoided being assaulted many times and on a few occasions ran the old badger sting on potential molesters quite successfully. So, yes 11 year olds are quite capable of being responsible for their actions and many have the kind of tools it takes to handle such situations. However, this one did not and her adult caregivers should be chastised for not teaching the child about dangerous situations and dangerous people. While reading over the comments made by the townspeople about how the girl looked (i.e., that she looked older), it has occurred that some of them may not be intended as blaming the victim because of her appearance, but attempts to claim that because she looked older some of the accused may have thought she was old enough to consent to sex. Some of the accused are teenage boys. While an 11 year old with a 16 year old is definitely creepy, many people do not find a 14 year old (and there is a thread in IMHO now in which a poster discusses happily and consentually having sex at 14) with a 16 year old. The real issue in some of these cases may not be age, but whether or not they had reason to believe consent.
  #164  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:02 PM
levdrakon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by margin View Post
Don't you dare compare rape to anything else, for starters.
Why not? Rape is a crime. Crime avoidance is common fucking sense.

You know why so many women submit while being raped? Because they're afraid of being killed.

Is getting killed worse than rape? Don't answer. I know your answer. For most women though, not getting killed is pretty important. There are worse things than being raped. Oh there I go excusing rapists and blaming victims again. Whatever.

Quit conflating women with 11-year-old children. I hate that. If a WOMAN wants to put on her fuck me outfit, get drunk and pass out in a back alley in the middle of Rape City that's her gig. Quit fucking telling children they should wear fuck me clothes, get drunk in dark alleys alone and hang around with gangs of guys because they're WOMEN and should. How on this whole blue green fucking Earth does that make a lick of sense? It's criminally irresponsible advice, that's what it is.

Last edited by levdrakon; 03-11-2011 at 02:05 PM.
  #165  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:04 PM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 20,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
AT 11, I was an accomplished shoplifter. I had also avoided being assaulted many times and on a few occasions ran the old badger sting on potential molesters quite successfully.
Mind explaining, for those of us not on the grift, how the "old badger sting" typically plays out?
  #166  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:04 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
Still no such thing. "Prostitute" implies a choice. There are children who are sold sexually for money, yes, but they are slaves, not prostitutes.
There are plenty of them in my neighborhood and they were not sold into slavery. They live at home with incompetent parents. Their guidance counselors try not to call it prostitution, but what else is really when 5th and 6th graders are performing oral sex on slightly older boys in exchange for clothes and teenage babbles. I have a nagging suspicion that the girl in the Cleveland case may have started her sexual activity in just such a scenario.
  #167  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:08 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
There are plenty of them in my neighborhood and they were not sold into slavery.
They are exploited and sexually enslaved by their parents. They are not prostitutes. That word implies some kind of implied choice or consent. You're talking about plain old child rape.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 02:08 PM.
  #168  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:09 PM
Dogzilla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
There are plenty of them in my neighborhood and they were not sold into slavery. They live at home with incompetent parents. Their guidance counselors try not to call it prostitution, but what else is really when 5th and 6th graders are performing oral sex on slightly older boys in exchange for clothes and teenage babbles. I have a nagging suspicion that the girl in the Cleveland case may have started her sexual activity in just such a scenario.
How is that not sexual abuse?
  #169  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:17 PM
Argent Towers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
By the way, I find it fascinating that many people have been saying, 'oh, these poor little black kids are from the ghetto and don't have fathers and that is why this is happening" I've been hearing a lot of that at work. I haven't bothered to say anything to them, but I really do think it is interesting that folks have been chalking this up to a ghetto problem. I know the ghetto. I am friends with the ghetto. Regular gang rape of 11 year olds, sir, is not the ghetto.

If someone says, "oh, these poor black fatherless kids end up on crack or murdering or selling drugs or being theives" I can understand that, heaven help us. But gang rape? I would call that a horrible, awful anomaly. Not a result of poor black fatherless ghetto kids.
Isn't "running a train" a ghetto term? When slang terms for highly specific concepts arise - like "baby daddy" - I think that's generally an indication of the concept being common enough in that community that they have slang for it.
  #170  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:21 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
Isn't "running a train" a ghetto term?
No. That term has been around forever, It's not a black thing. I heard it used by white guys in the Navy 25 years ago.
  #171  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:24 PM
Argent Towers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,292
Look, I don't doubt that white people use the term too. But I think it originated in the ghetto. 25 years ago there were still ghettos. Actually, 25 years ago was around the time when a lot of black urban slang started drifting into the mainstream.
  #172  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Nzinga, Seated is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
Isn't "running a train" a ghetto term? When slang terms for highly specific concepts arise - like "baby daddy" - I think that's generally an indication of the concept being common enough in that community that they have slang for it.
If you don't know the difference between 'running a train' and a gang rape, then we are going to have to start at the beginning, Argent. Also, what does 'baby daddy' have to do with gang rape?

I find your quote strange. I am readily admitting (and there really is no denying) that the ghetto is rife with crime and troubles. But gang rape isn't one of the big problems we have to tussle with, ususally. I am honestly baffled as to how you feel 'baby daddy' has a thing to do with gang rape.

Last edited by Nzinga, Seated; 03-11-2011 at 02:28 PM.
  #173  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:29 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
I heard white people say "pulling a train" long before black people.

As a matter of fact, I think Hunter Thompson described the Hell's Angels using that term in the 60's in his book about them. I'm pretty sure anyway.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 02:32 PM.
  #174  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:34 PM
norinew is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wilds of WV
Posts: 10,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
She did not have "an ongoing sexual relationship with an adult." She was sexually abused by an adult, and he probably wasn't the first one. Characterizing it as a "relationship" is offensive.
I totally agree that characterizing it as a 'relationship' is offensive; that's why I put the term in quotation marks in my post. Obviously, it could not, in any way, have been a consensual relationship. That was kind of my point. It wasn't consensual any more than my situation was.

Quote:
Someone should have told her it wasn't "ok" for her to get sexually abused. What the hell? It's not like she ever had any choice in the matter.
That's absolutely not what I meant. What I meant was that I find it very sad that at no point did she seem to get the message that this kind of contact is not OK, and that if you report it to an adult, the adult will do something to help. The 11YO is in no way at fault here. All I'm saying is that, per your own post, she was sexually abused, probably not for the first time, which indicates she had no one to go to that would help her; or she didn't know who to go to. Responsible parents cannot make sure their children are never abused or assaulted. What responsible parents can do is to make sure that their children know who they can go to, safely, if there is an issue of assault or abuse.

My point is that, yes, the rape lays squarely on the shoulders of the rapists. But there is some kind of other failing going on here if this child either didn't have anyone reliable to go to after the first incident or didn't know she had someone to go to.

Obviously, this is a topic close to my heart and my emotions. But I am taking my daughter out of town for a bowling tournament this weekend, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to check back in.

Meantime, my thoughts will be with this poor child, and no, my sympathies will not be with the perpetrators of this crime!

Last edited by norinew; 03-11-2011 at 02:34 PM.
  #175  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:39 PM
levdrakon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
Well, I don't think I ever said "ghetto." But, the first article I saw mentioned gangs and that abandoned place the whole neighborhood called "the Quarters" so it sounded like a pretty poor neighborhood.

Now I've heard different things like "star of the basketball team" and "school board member's son" and don't really know what to think.
  #176  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:43 PM
Argent Towers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
I am honestly baffled as to how you feel 'baby daddy' has a thing to do with gang rape.
Then you didn't read what I wrote very carefully.

Quote:
When slang terms for highly specific concepts arise - like "baby daddy" - I think that's generally an indication of the concept being common enough in that community that they have slang for it.
Quote:
If you don't know the difference between 'running a train' and a gang rape, then we are going to have to start at the beginning, Argent.
Seems to me that the ultimate goal of "running a train" is so that multiple men can each achieve penetration/orgasm without all having to go to the trouble of each finding different sexual partners. It's a utilitarian, un-emotional form of group sex.

A gang rape is this same thing, but with an unwilling partner.

The difference is clear to me. But the similarities are also clear to me.
  #177  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:57 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Mind explaining, for those of us not on the grift, how the "old badger sting" typically plays out?
There are as many variations as people working the game. It's basically blackmailing someone for lusting after an underage person (usually a girl) or and individual whom a sexual relationship or the hint of a sexual relationship would cause a scandal for the mark. The mark has to be financially secure enough to be worth the effort, not so financially secure they can easily avoid a scandal and possible arrest. Before the the media revolution it was much harder and considerably more dangerous because of the nature of the evidence needed (usually love letters indicating clear intent at the least). Now every idiot has a digital camera and no brains about using them.
  #178  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:59 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
They are exploited and sexually enslaved by their parents. They are not prostitutes. That word implies some kind of implied choice or consent. You're talking about plain old child rape.
Half the time their parents have no idea what's going on. Myself, I would wonder where my daughter always had the latest teen fads, but some people don't (or they are willfilly blind).
  #179  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:00 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by norinew
That's absolutely not what I meant. What I meant was that I find it very sad that at no point did she seem to get the message that this kind of contact is not OK, and that if you report it to an adult, the adult will do something to help. The 11YO is in no way at fault here. All I'm saying is that, per your own post, she was sexually abused, probably not for the first time, which indicates she had no one to go to that would help her; or she didn't know who to go to. Responsible parents cannot make sure their children are never abused or assaulted. What responsible parents can do is to make sure that their children know who they can go to, safely, if there is an issue of assault or abuse.

My point is that, yes, the rape lays squarely on the shoulders of the rapists. But there is some kind of other failing going on here if this child either didn't have anyone reliable to go to after the first incident or didn't know she had someone to go to.

Obviously, this is a topic close to my heart and my emotions. But I am taking my daughter out of town for a bowling tournament this weekend, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to check back in.

Meantime, my thoughts will be with this poor child, and no, my sympathies will not be with the perpetrators of this crime!
I think the problem a lot of people are having with the argument people like you and me want to make comes in that, in an ideal world, a little 11 year old girl should be able to skip through downtown at 11PM naked and not have anybody think nary a sexual thought much less touch her. No boy should be content to rape, and if, somehow in our ideal world, this did occur, his peers would report it immediately (and same for any permutation of the above genders). Sure, if the parents of 11 year old girls were gods and could alter the parenting structures of everybody in their community, that would be great, perfect solution, no need to teach little girls anything because crimes won't happen. Problem solved.

The big issue with this scenario is that, well, we don't live in that world, and parents of little girls have control over the habits and lifestyle of exactly one little girl, not all the boys that could possibly come in contact with her. Little girls do need to be taught to be brave, to not dress provocatively until they're older, and to not hang out with 19 year old boys if said 19 year old boys violate the no uncomfortable touching rule (or don't hang out with older boys at all). It's unfortunate that they need to be taught this, yes, but there exist people who will take advantage of little tiny excuses such as revealing clothing to do something inexcusable. Now, this is a mitigation factor, there will still be rapes, even if every little girl is perfectly instructed in how to mitigate tragic scenarios. Even in our ideal world above, you have to factor in the particularly sociopathic boys that won't listen to their parent's sage advice about not raping. This is where stage 2 comes in: girls need to be taught to TELL SOMEONE and to KEEP telling someone if the first few someones don't believe you. Yes, this little girl was coerced, even if she was dressing age-appropriately and hanging out with all the right people she may have been coerced into sexual contact, but afterwards she needed to tell her parents or call the police. Mitigating factors aren't enough, you have to prepare for the child that the possiblity that the world will roll the dice and you'll be chosen as the unlucky loser, and if such a terrible thing should occur, what you need to do if it happens. This little girl didn't know this, and kept letting it happen, first with the 19 year old, and then with the myriad of other people. It only came under scrutiny when another person ENTIRELY came across the video by chance and reported it.

That's the sticker her, she should NOT have been raped, even if in the real world she can't run around naked at 11AM and not be raped it still SHOULDN'T happen. In the event she's raped, for any reason, she needs to be taught to tell somebody. She, personally, did nothing wrong except be ignorant. And doing something wrong is completely, totally different from being at fault, the people who are at fault are the people who did this, the people who didn't report this, and the people who didn't cure her of her ignorance. She is a victim, but her incorrect action in this scenario is a result of further victimization, not some misguided attempt to blame her for her problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norinew
I totally agree that characterizing it as a 'relationship' is offensive; that's why I put the term in quotation marks in my post. Obviously, it could not, in any way, have been a consensual relationship. That was kind of my point. It wasn't consensual any more than my situation was.
Personally, I think saying an 11 year old having an ongoing sexual relationship with a 19 year old sort of entails abuse, without any change in terminology or addition of scare quotes. You shouldn't need to say "was abused by," it's implied. I think that such a thing needs to be specified is rather sad, actually, because it implies (to me) that there exists a case where characterizing it as a relationship is correct.

Last edited by Jragon; 03-11-2011 at 03:05 PM.
  #180  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:02 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
How is that not sexual abuse?
Because the girls consent. As for as the statutory rape aspect, in many of the situations the boy is also underage.
  #181  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:03 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
The girls were not consenting and were not capable of consent.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-11-2011 at 03:03 PM.
  #182  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:05 PM
Carmady is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,474
bengangmo:

While I think I agree with your main point, you are phrasing it very poorly and I can understand people getting upset.

This is an 11 year old girl we are talking about. It is absurd to focus on how she should change her behavior, because it is incredibly easy for adult men to manipulate an 11 year old girl.

Essentially, the questions are the same, but the focus is different. We shouldn't ask "why was this girl already having sex with adult men", we should ask "how were adult men already raping this girl and nobody did anything about it."

We shouldn't ask "why did she take a ride with a 19 year old", we should ask "why did a 19 year old take her for a ride and why didn't anyone find that disturbing."

We shouldn't tell her "don't wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with an older crowd", we should ask "who/what influenced/manipulated/forced her to wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with this crowd".

Because she is an 11 year old girl being victimized by adults. That doesn't make her stupid or reckless. It makes her 11, and them adults.
  #183  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:54 PM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 40,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
I am readily admitting (and there really is no denying) that the ghetto is rife with crime and troubles. But gang rape isn't one of the big problems we have to tussle with, ususally.
I don't doubt that gang rape is less common in the ghetto than other kinds of troubles. But that doesn't mean that it isn't connected with the same factors that cause other kinds of crimes, both serious and common.

Not everybody who grows up without a father turns into a rapist. But growing up without a father is one strike against you right from the get-go. And growing up in a neighborhood where it is pretty much the norm to live without the stable, long-term presence of a father or father figure in the home, is another strike.

Not everyone who grows up without a father becomes a rapist, obviously. But it commonly appears in the backgrounds of those who commit serious, violent crimes.

It's an analogy I've used in the past. My grandfather died of lung cancer. He never smoked cigarettes in his life. Does that mean dying of lung cancer isn't usually associated with smoking? IYSWIM.

Regards,
Shodan
  #184  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:05 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
The girls were not consenting and were not capable of consent.
In the scenarios I've witnessed in my the local junior high and high schools, the boys are underage, so they also cannot legally consent to sex; therefore, it could be argued that they are just as much being raped by the girls, if not more so since they (the boys) are not getting anything of monetary value out of the sex.
  #185  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:08 PM
MPB in Salt Lake is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 4,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
There are as many variations as people working the game. It's basically blackmailing someone for lusting after an underage person (usually a girl) or and individual whom a sexual relationship or the hint of a sexual relationship would cause a scandal for the mark. The mark has to be financially secure enough to be worth the effort, not so financially secure they can easily avoid a scandal and possible arrest.
So you were a thief and extortionist, but now just a con woman (fortuneteller) and general scam artist.

What a shame that you won't be having children......

Last edited by MPB in Salt Lake; 03-11-2011 at 04:09 PM.
  #186  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:13 PM
aldiboronti is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Troynovant
Posts: 8,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
For the record, I don't see how either the victim's clothes or the races of anyone involved has any journalistic relevance.
If this report is accurate then it certainly does have relevance.

Quote:
The alleged gang rape of an 11-year-old girl by at least 18 boys and young men has sparked shame and outrage in a tiny Texas town, but it has also stirred racial tensions that threaten to split the East Texas hamlet.

All of the defendants arrested are African-American and the girl is Hispanic.
  #187  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:13 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake View Post
So you were a thief and extortionist, but now just a con woman (fortuneteller) and general scam artist.

What a shame that you won't be having children......
Well, if I could honestly work in an environment where I didn't have strange men sticking out their hands at me, I would. If you deny people the right to work honestly, guess, what they turn to crime.
  #188  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:23 PM
villa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Anyone else getting that feeling like when you are stopped at the top of the rollercoaster, with that seemingly never ending pause before you plunge?

Last edited by villa; 03-11-2011 at 04:23 PM.
  #189  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:32 PM
kambuckta is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Great Barrier Reef, wooo
Posts: 10,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
Dogzilla is female and a rape/abuse survivor.
Sorry about that: I was actually referring to Diogenes the Cynic, upon who I bestowed the nickname Doggy Knees many years ago. I apologise for the confusion.
  #190  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:37 PM
Beadalin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Mini Soda
Posts: 5,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by villa View Post
Anyone else getting that feeling like when you are stopped at the top of the rollercoaster, with that seemingly never ending pause before you plunge?
I get that feeling every time ZPG Zealot shows up in a thread.
  #191  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:05 PM
Lynn Bodoni is offline
Creature of the Night
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 20,803
Quote:
Yes, this little girl was coerced, even if she was dressing age-appropriately and hanging out with all the right people she may have been coerced into sexual contact, but afterwards she needed to tell her parents or call the police.
Except that she was told, repeatedly, that she'd be beaten if she didn't do exactly what the rapists told her to do. And she had reason to believe that she WOULD be beaten.

And the cops might not have believed her, anyway. It's her word against the word of several well connected males.
  #192  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:11 PM
Freudian Slit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 22,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by margin View Post
3. I can predict the advice you'll give. Let me guess. No dark alleys, unattended drinks, short skirts, or making out?
And does it count as a short skirt if I'm wearing leggings with it? What if it's a leather skirt--does it count as slutty even if it's knee length? I always want to know what people think qualifies as slutty in terms of clothing choices for women because it's so different depending on who's doing the choosing. At the end of the day, let's face it--who knows?
  #193  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni View Post
Except that she was told, repeatedly, that she'd be beaten if she didn't do exactly what the rapists told her to do. And she had reason to believe that she WOULD be beaten.

And the cops might not have believed her, anyway. It's her word against the word of several well connected males.
Usually calls to that effect are anonymous, aren't they? So they wouldn't have known she (or anyone) tattled until the cops started making really overt moves. Besides, there's no fool proof method for stopping every sucky situation other than magic. Yeah, it's always possible that nobody or not enough people would believe her, but just because that chance exists doesn't mean we should throw up our arms and not try. Not mentioning anything is guaranteed to make things go downhill, telling somebody only has a chance of making things worse, the rational choice is telling somebody.
  #194  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Freudian Slit is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 22,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
AT 11, I was an accomplished shoplifter. I had also avoided being assaulted many times and on a few occasions ran the old badger sting on potential molesters quite successfully. So, yes 11 year olds are quite capable of being responsible for their actions and many have the kind of tools it takes to handle such situations. However, this one did not and her adult caregivers should be chastised for not teaching the child about dangerous situations and dangerous people.
It's been pointed out several times that she was violently raped. I'm over twice this girl's age, and I don't think I have the skills to avoid being physically forced to submit.
  #195  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:15 PM
villa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
Not mentioning anything is guaranteed to make things go downhill, telling somebody only has a chance of making things worse, the rational choice is telling somebody.
Am I confused or are you seriously discussing whether the actions of a sexually abused 11 year old girl threatened with (and the victim of) extreme violence were the rational choice in the situation?
  #196  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:35 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by villa View Post
Am I confused or are you seriously discussing whether the actions of a sexually abused 11 year old girl threatened with (and the victim of) extreme violence were the rational choice in the situation?
That's why you TEACH THEM WHAT TO DO. It's the same idea as conditioning soldiers to not hesitate to shoot a human target, or hell, giving kids timed math quizzes so they're calmer and able to think clearer under test pressure*. Or any number of "just say no" drug PSAs. If you drive the point in early and hard then it increases the chances of them making the rational choice under pressure. That's not to say she doesn't have a right to be emotional or act irrationally at ALL, it's just that if you teach them properly they should find it easier to act rationally, even at a young age. And no, it's still not a perfect system, but I'm trying to work for a maximum of good situations given the current state of affairs in the world, not make everything perfect.

* No, not the same level of severity at all. Just a similar principle.

Last edited by Jragon; 03-11-2011 at 05:39 PM.
  #197  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:39 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
If this report is accurate then it certainly does have relevance.
You forgot to post any relevance,
  #198  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:41 PM
Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
That's why you TEACH THEM WHAT TO DO.
She was violently gang raped. There was nothing to teach her.
  #199  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:57 PM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
It's been pointed out several times that she was violently raped. I'm over twice this girl's age, and I don't think I have the skills to avoid being physically forced to submit.
Well, I have been in situations similiar to this girl (very high risk of gang rape) and at younger age than 11. The rapists were never successful. It wasn't because I was ugly or diseased. It was because I used some common sense and was taught how to survive at an early age. Yes, the rapists are evil people, but this girl's family showed gross neglect in not teaching her about life.
  #200  
Old 03-11-2011, 06:06 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
She was violently gang raped. There was nothing to teach her.
Really? There was nothing you could have told her? "If anybody ever penetrates your vagina, or asks you to touch their penis, as soon as you're away from those people call the police." Tell her that over and over. Every few weeks make up scenarios similar to that and extensions of it and quiz her on what she'd do while eating breakfast to keep her thinking about "if it ever came to that, I'm prepared." And that's the overkill approach. Above all, make it clear that she shouldn't be afraid of everyone, and the world isn't an evil, horrible place, but that this is the best course of action should the world shit on her. You can't prepare people for everything ("honey, what will you do if the Reds invade?"), but you can prepare them for the statistically significant scenarios like rape, seeing a friend get assaulted, bullying, cheating at school, drug dealing etc. She was a victim, but just because she's a victim doesn't mean she's relegated to sitting by and doing nothing. She has options, she has things she CAN do. She can, of course, choose to not do them, but if she's conditioned to report people that do this sort of stuff not only do chances increase that she won't be harmed again by those same people, she's helping other people not get harmed by them. She's not evil or bad by not reporting them, but it's preferable for her own health to be taught to report them, so it makes the most sense to tell her what her options are in those scenarios.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:45 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017