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  #201  
Old 03-11-2011, 06:42 PM
Cat Fight is offline
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
You're comparing an eleven-year-old girl to a wad of cash, which is not a human being.

If you want to prevent it, teach your sons not to be rapist scumbags.
Seriously, this shit again? I've said this before, but the funny thing about sexual assault is how many people don't need a metaphor to understand it, they can just recferencel personal experience, or that of a close female friend or family member. It's so simple, they don't even need to compare being born with a vagina or having breasts to carrying money or wearing jewelry or driving a fancy car through the ghetto.

And besides, in most cases the scenario is closer to having a piggybank in your childhood bedroom, carrying a purse while on a date or having a joint bank account with your boyfriend or spouse.

Anyway, this thread has gotten surreal. While I agree that the Times article's quotes showed the neighborhood citizens in a bad light, quotes are selected. Not everything's taken down, not everything goes in the finished article. The bit about her clothing was absolutely useless and added nothing, unless you really needed to know that she was brutally raped, had been rumored to be 'in a relationship' (getting raped) by a teenager, and didn't don a burqa. As someone else pointed out, if people knew so much about what was going on, they knew she was 11. Doesn't matter if she was wearing pinafores or booty shorts, but if some 11- or 12-year-old reads that articles, that's not the message they'll get, and if it's something they already believe or are told, it will reinforce their skewed view (not that the myth that revealing clothes make men rape women isn't already alive and well).

Yes! Tell 11-year-olds not to hang out with older boys or men in their 20s, or let them touch them in their 'private place,' or threaten to kill her before a gang rape. But anyone on here who seriously thinks that was the problem – that her kind, loving parents, friendly local police force and close-knit community cared for her in every way but forgot that little bit of advice – is a damned fool.

Last edited by Cat Fight; 03-11-2011 at 06:44 PM.
  #202  
Old 03-11-2011, 06:48 PM
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.... but this girl's family showed gross neglect in not teaching her about life.
Au-contraire....I would suggest that someone, either in the family or very close to it has been teaching this little girl a shitload about life.

Unfortunately, not quite the right lessons.
  #203  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:29 PM
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Well, I have been in situations similiar to this girl (very high risk of gang rape) and at younger age than 11. The rapists were never successful. It wasn't because I was ugly or diseased. It was because I used some common sense and was taught how to survive at an early age. Yes, the rapists are evil people, but this girl's family showed gross neglect in not teaching her about life.
There's so much wrong here...
  #204  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:57 PM
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Really? There was nothing you could have told her? "If anybody ever penetrates your vagina, or asks you to touch their penis, as soon as you're away from those people call the police."
How would that have stopped her from being gang raped?
  #205  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:25 PM
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How would that have stopped her from being gang raped?
I have made it clear, multiple times, that it wouldn't have. You can't prevent every rape, that's the point! What you can do is mitigate the chance of it happening, and if (or in this case, WHEN) that fails the best thing you can do is report it. It would not have prevented the rape of this girl, but it could prevent subsequent rapes of her by these people (such as if she had reported the 19 year old to begin with), or rapes of other girls by the same perpetrators. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about things she could have done AFTER the fact, not to prevent the rape altogether.

Like I said in my first post: We can teach little girls things to mitigate the chances of them getting raped, but that will not always work because of situations like violent gang rape. What we CAN do however, is ALSO instruct them how to react to it, how to deal with the aftermath, that IF it happens you should inform the police because not only will it increase the chances (CHANCES, not "make a certainty) of the perpetrators getting caught and being unable to harm you again, it also increases the chances of the world becoming a safer place for other little girls. You can only control yourself, there are things you can do to lower your chance of getting raped however slightly, and if you find yourself getting raped one day because the dice landed the wrong way, you can use it to help make the world a better place for yourself and others in the future. I'm not saying it's this girl's fault if these people hadn't gotten caught and had raped another little girl, I'm saying that teaching little girls these things can lower the chances of rape for everyone.
  #206  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:54 PM
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I have made it clear, multiple times, that it wouldn't have. You can't prevent every rape, that's the point! What you can do is mitigate the chance of it happening, and if (or in this case, WHEN) that fails the best thing you can do is report it. It would not have prevented the rape of this girl, but it could prevent subsequent rapes of her by these people (such as if she had reported the 19 year old to begin with), or rapes of other girls by the same perpetrators. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about things she could have done AFTER the fact, not to prevent the rape altogether.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but not everybody lives in the fantasy land that you do.
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Like I said in my first post: We can teach little girls things to mitigate the chances of them getting raped, but that will not always work because of situations like violent gang rape.
Gee, do you think it might be a tad more complicated than that, in the real world? You know, where women and girls do in fact do all the right things, still get raped, still get called liars, and turn up as the stars of some loser's plaint of, "I was falsely accused!"

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What we CAN do however, is ALSO instruct them how to react to it, how to deal with the aftermath, that IF it happens you should inform the police because not only will it increase the chances (CHANCES, not "make a certainty) of the perpetrators getting caught and being unable to harm you again, it also increases the chances of the world becoming a safer place for other little girls. You can only control yourself, there are things you can do to lower your chance of getting raped however slightly, and if you find yourself getting raped one day because the dice landed the wrong way, you can use it to help make the world a better place for yourself and others in the future. I'm not saying it's this girl's fault if these people hadn't gotten caught and had raped another little girl, I'm saying that teaching little girls these things can lower the chances of rape for everyone.
Find yourself getting raped, huh? By what? Shitty passive voice sentences that desperately try to conceal that men are raping women and girls?

And if you have to say, "I'm not saying she asked for it," before going on to say, "But she really did all this stuff wrong," then the only person you're fooling is yourself. The only thing more passive aggressive is 'Just sayin'.'

Just sayin' and all.
  #207  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Fewer than if they did all the wrong things. That's not blaming the victim; it is the recognition of an obvious reality.
Fathers are always put in that position. That is one of the things that fathers are for. Some fathers abandon this responsibility, or carry it out badly. Such people should be condemned. A man who shirks his responsibilities towards his children is not a man.
Absolutely correct. Much of the time, fathers are abandoning their responsibilities towards their children. We need to do much more in this society to promote healthy, two-parent families.
This is a strawman - no one in this thread has said anything remotely similar to "boys will be boys'.
This case does not involve a woman. Eleven year old children can be pretty stupid, though. That's why adults have to be responsible for them, to teach them how to behave, and to keep an eye out when they are running into danger. No one seems to have done that for this girl. Is that her fault? Of course not - she is eleven years old, and is not responsible for herself.

I think a curfew for the eleven year old would have been a great idea. Don't you?

Regards,
Shodan
Healthy two-parent families? Stop pimping conservative crap.

No one has said 'boys will be boys.' But I have repeatedly pointed out that rape is what the rapist does. It is not the act of the victim. How does one catch rapists? By studying them. But what's going on here? Blaming the victim.
  #208  
Old 03-12-2011, 12:02 AM
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Why not? Rape is a crime. Crime avoidance is common fucking sense.

You know why so many women submit while being raped? Because they're afraid of being killed.

Is getting killed worse than rape? Don't answer. I know your answer. For most women though, not getting killed is pretty important. There are worse things than being raped. Oh there I go excusing rapists and blaming victims again. Whatever.

Quit conflating women with 11-year-old children. I hate that. If a WOMAN wants to put on her fuck me outfit, get drunk and pass out in a back alley in the middle of Rape City that's her gig. Quit fucking telling children they should wear fuck me clothes, get drunk in dark alleys alone and hang around with gangs of guys because they're WOMEN and should. How on this whole blue green fucking Earth does that make a lick of sense? It's criminally irresponsible advice, that's what it is.
So men are provoked beyond reason by those slutty bitches doing slutty things like wearing fuck me clothes and passing out in dark alleys.

is English a language you aspire to? Because no one who either speaks and reads English accurately could say the things you claim I said about victims, and no one who's not vile could blame victims the way you do.
  #209  
Old 03-12-2011, 12:14 AM
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Healthy two-parent families? Stop pimping conservative crap...
Absolutely---What a tragedy it would be if more children were raised in a stable, loving home with both a mother and a father acting as role models, providing guidance and care.

The horror.....
  #210  
Old 03-12-2011, 12:19 AM
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but not everybody lives in the fantasy land that you do.

Gee, do you think it might be a tad more complicated than that, in the real world? You know, where women and girls do in fact do all the right things, still get raped, still get called liars, and turn up as the stars of some loser's plaint of, "I was falsely accused!"
It's certainly more complicated in the real world. I'm relaxing the problem, it's a perfectly valid problem solving technique. You can't take into account every factor, that way lies madness. Shitty stuff happens, people might not believe her, but if you're looking for a maximum expected good, you should perform the action that has the highest chance of getting you there. Is there a chance that the police will laugh at you and then tell the rapist and he'll come to your house and kill you for tattling? Yes. But if you don't report it the chances of them getting caught and you being safe plummet. It's all about maximizing expected outcome, and just riding the middle road can sometimes be worse than taking the action that can result in the most good, but possibly, on rare occasions, have negative side effects.

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Find yourself getting raped, huh? By what? Shitty passive voice sentences that desperately try to conceal that men are raping women and girls?
First off, the passive voice is underrated and I fail to see what my writing style has to do with anything. Second off, I'm not concealing anything, men rape women (women rape men, men rape men, women rape women, men rape girls, etc). The point I'm trying to get across is that in any system that contains a factor you completely have no influence over, that factor may as well be random. Yes, in reality the man made a choice to rape the woman, but in the woman's personal "world," as an agent she didn't have any control over the circumstance so talking about the man's choice like the girl can control it is futile. It basically IS random chance FROM THE LOCAL PERSPECTIVE OF THE AGENT (girl) IN QUESTION. The girl can't control how the boy was raised, it's completely irrelevant to talk about in this instance, from her local perspective she was the victim of a chance, a whim, a quirk in statistics in which another agent enacted a negative action against her with seemingly no rhyme or reason. I'm not saying it WAS random chance, just that from the perspective the most important agent in this scenario, it may as well have been.

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And if you have to say, "I'm not saying she asked for it," before going on to say, "But she really did all this stuff wrong," then the only person you're fooling is yourself. The only thing more passive aggressive is 'Just sayin'.'

Just sayin' and all.
Like I said, she did something wrong, but it's not her fault. I never said she asked for anything, where are you even getting that? Her parents and teachers bear a small weight of responsibility for any repeated occurrences because they didn't teach her to get a responsible third party involved, just like the third party would bear a brunt of responsibility because they didn't investigate the situation thoroughly enough if they dismissed her. I will, bluntly, state: She did something wrong, but the level of wrongness we're talking about is asking "what's 5 times 5" and she says "2" because nobody ever taught her what multiplication is. On a test, it's still a wrong answer, but it's her instructor's fault for not teaching her the information. And the case where she calls a responsible third party and they blow her off is if she answered "25" on the test and the teacher still marked her off just 'cause. She is in no way AT FAULT, her nurturers just failed to instill in her the action that can foreseeably increase the expected chance of her reaching a more positive state in a shorter amount of time.
  #211  
Old 03-12-2011, 01:42 AM
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So men are provoked beyond reason by those slutty bitches doing slutty things like wearing fuck me clothes and passing out in dark alleys.

is English a language you aspire to? Because no one who either speaks and reads English accurately could say the things you claim I said about victims, and no one who's not vile could blame victims the way you do.
Are you always this monumentally thick? Do you have an intellectual disability? Is there something in your make-up that prevents you from understanding simple arguments presented in a simple way? I'm finding it hard to believe you really are this stupid, but anyway, it seems that this thread has become pretty pointless since your arrival margin.


[This thread has been stupided by the STUPIDIST]
  #212  
Old 03-12-2011, 02:09 AM
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You can't take into account every factor, that way lies madness. Shitty stuff happens, people might not believe her, but if you're looking for a maximum expected good, you should perform the action that has the highest chance of getting you there. Is there a chance that the police will laugh at you and then tell the rapist and he'll come to your house and kill you for tattling? Yes. But if you don't report it the chances of them getting caught and you being safe plummet. It's all about maximizing expected outcome, and just riding the middle road can sometimes be worse than taking the action that can result in the most good, but possibly, on rare occasions, have negative side effects.
This girl already knew that her choices were to get in the car, or get beaten. She knew that if she told, she'd get beaten or killed. She knew that her assailants were far more likely to be believed. She knew that her assailants were well connected, and they would be able to arrange for her beatings even if they were all in jail. Her chances of getting a beating, or multiple beatings, were almost assured if she reported this.

She survived. She made the correct choices. She's only 11. Most ADULTS in this sort of situation would find it hard to report this gang rape, and you're expecting this little girl to be braver and stronger than adults.
  #213  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:18 AM
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This girl already knew that her choices were to get in the car, or get beaten. She knew that if she told, she'd get beaten or killed. She knew that her assailants were far more likely to be believed. She knew that her assailants were well connected, and they would be able to arrange for her beatings even if they were all in jail. Her chances of getting a beating, or multiple beatings, were almost assured if she reported this.
Just because something leads to an immediate negative doesn't mean it can't eventually be a net positive. In fact, her getting beaten may have been good in the long run, because then she could have put more thugs in jail, in addition to adding "hiring mercenaries to beat a little girl" onto the rapist's charges.

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She survived. She made the correct choices.
Survival doesn't always entail the correct choice. It depends on how you assign value to each possible outcome, yes the possibility of death is a large negative weight, but the possibility of safety is also a large positive weight. You can't always KNOW it will end in death, you consider it as a possibility. It's not the wrong choice if it ends in death, you could have made the right choice but the state tree happened to take the incorrect turn. Even if there's one really bad outcome, a few good outcomes, and then a host of bad outcomes, it's still a likelihood that even the average of the outcomes' weights have higher values than the guaranteed bad outcome from not reporting. If you took the path with the higher weight, it was rational, at each choice you have to consider the likelihood and weigh everything. If it ends in death, it's not necessarily the wrong choice, it just means that another "random" uncontrollable outcome happened.

It's like the red car problem, a person can research two cars, understand that the red car is much safer (less chance of mechanical failure) than the blue car is, but while on his way to the dealership, get into a horrible accident with someone driving that same model of red car. Most humans have been shown that in cases like this, they will go with the blue car despite the fact that the red car is statistically more likely to be safer. In this case the aversion to death is clouding the judgement of the good, or "bad but better than continuous rape" scenarios that can occur. Telling somebody may lead to the most tragic outcome, but it's also more likely than not telling to eventually lead to an outcome at least better than continuous unreported rape.

You can't just look one step ahead and say "she likely would have been beaten." Even if that's true, it's not the end of it, more can happen. Even one non-fatal beating could in the long run be a positive weight since her rapists are in prison and even though she suffered more bad situations eventually she may be safe because of reporting the assailants, it also would get more concrete info on the rapists, since obvious visible bruises are harder to deny than rape charges. The possibilities of taking action contain many possible good scenarios that sitting by don't. If you just sit by, you're relegating your situation to only improve by chance, if you report it you give yourself the chance for a worse future, but also open up the possibilities for non-random improvement. I'd say that in almost all cases the chances of things getting better if you take action are much better than the minuscule chance of some random person knowing something is wrong.

[
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Most ADULTS in this sort of situation would find it hard to report this gang rape, and you're expecting this little girl to be braver and stronger than adults.
Yes. Just because adults find things difficult doesn't mean that we can't condition children to make those decisions from birth. It won't always work, but if you truly condition them correctly I think a child who is raised to think that way will find it easier to do than an adult who wasn't raised that way.
  #214  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:33 AM
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This thread has provoked huge emotion; the people arguing past each other might even find themselves in agreement if they calmed down.

No one here is defending rape. I'd have no objection if rapists were tortured hideously before put to death.

But it's also a fact that some children's life-styles place them at higher risk than others. We do not live in a perfect world. "The world is beautiful" and "The world is dangerous" are both important lessons; a parent is faced with a dilemma to strike the right balance.

(Minor nit: can D the C produce a cite for the absurd claim that prostitution is defined as voluntary? One frequently hears of "forced prostitution"; is that an oxymoron? )
  #215  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:02 AM
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I suppose he means that a prostitute, even one being forced into that occupation, is still consenting to sex with clients. A prostitute forced into a sexual act is being raped, and not practicing prostitution.

And yes, there is too much emotion here, as there inevitably is in every discussion about rape.
  #216  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:15 AM
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And yes, there is too much emotion here, as there inevitably is in every discussion about rape.
Most of the discussion is rational and looking to provide possible solutions to what was an horrendous crime against the very humanity of the little girl involved.

Unfortunately the minority are behaving like shrieking harpies, picking individual posted words to rail against, not engaging in any legitimate discourse, and making themselves look like fools and/or trolls.

Meh, just another day on the SDMB I guess.
  #217  
Old 03-12-2011, 08:56 AM
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You can only control yourself, there are things you can do to lower your chance of getting raped however slightly, and if you find yourself getting raped one day because the dice landed the wrong way, you can use it to help make the world a better place for yourself and others in the future.
So we should look at being raped- or the raping of our daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers, as some kind of character building learning experience?
  #218  
Old 03-12-2011, 09:07 AM
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She did something wrong, but the level of wrongness we're talking about is asking "what's 5 times 5" and she says "2" because nobody ever taught her what multiplication is.
So you are quantifying how much a fourth grader did to "cause" men to gang rape her. That's sick. The Chinese will now say that Chairman Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong. I'm sure the families of the people he killed appreciate having an exact number on that.

If they hadn't have raped her, they'd have raped some other little girl. There will always be relatively unsupervised kids somewhere. If there really are no kids like that in their community, they will find a teenager with normal teen freedoms. The gang rape of a teen is pretty much equally as horrific. So even if this girl had been capable of doing enough "right" to prevent these men from raping her, all you'd be doing is substituting one victim for another. On the grand scale, this is not a gain at all.
  #219  
Old 03-12-2011, 09:34 AM
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Completely pointless aside:

Why does everyone keep referring to her as a fourth grader? Mine were nine in fourth grade and at 11 will be in sixth grade.

Sorry. Just stood out.
  #220  
Old 03-12-2011, 09:38 AM
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Well, I have been in situations similiar to this girl (very high risk of gang rape) and at younger age than 11.
Avoiding the guests at your First Communion party who wish to offer a congratulatory handshake is NOT the same as escaping gang rape at age eleven.
  #221  
Old 03-12-2011, 09:47 AM
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Why does everyone keep referring to her as a fourth grader? Mine were nine in fourth grade and at 11 will be in sixth grade.
She might have been held back a couple of times.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:04 AM
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Heh, that's my fault. I seem to recall being 11 in fourth grade, but looking back I was 11 in fifth grade and I was old for my class.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:14 AM
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The OP's thread title made me think of the Pitcairn rape trial of a few years ago, where literally most of the adult male population of the entire country (well, British territory) were tried for rape. Granted, the territory's population is only 50 people (give or take a few), but while I'm sure the OP was being hyperbolic (is that the correct word for "employing hyperbole"?) with their thread title, "half the community" is not a hyperbole here.

(Sadly, this case comes from being so incredibly isolated, with a small population base, that the sexual pairings are extremely limited. Despite all residents claiming to be devout Seventh Day Adventists, the rapes have been going on for generations, and have been taught as a "way of life" on the island (the women of the island defended the practice in the trial). I think the excrement only impacted the proverbial air circulating device when a foreigner came to the island and discovered what was going on.)
  #224  
Old 03-12-2011, 11:32 AM
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Just because something leads to an immediate negative doesn't mean it can't eventually be a net positive. In fact, her getting beaten may have been good in the long run, because then she could have put more thugs in jail, in addition to adding "hiring mercenaries to beat a little girl" onto the rapist's charges.
You're really serious? I knew that attitudes towards rape victims were still messed up but I had no idea just how bad. This makes "Maybe it happened because you were wearing a skirt/dress" look normal.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:41 AM
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No, I think Jragon is trying to say that even the worst tragedy can produce a glimmer of good, a sentiment with which I heartily agree. I think he just said it in a way that perhaps didn't convey his intent.

At least that's what I got out of it.
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:46 AM
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No, I think Jragon is trying to say that even the worst tragedy can produce a glimmer of good, a sentiment with which I heartily agree. I think he just said it in a way that perhaps didn't convey his intent.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Lynn said she made the best decision she could under the circumstances--submit to what the rapists told her or get beaten. She did what she felt she had to do. Jragon's response was that maybe being beaten would have been a good thing. It's just like...is there nothing a rape victim can do that won't be scrutinized?
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:10 PM
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...is there nothing a rape victim can do that won't be scrutinized?
I think we all know the answer to that question. I don't think Jragon meant to convey what he apparently did, but I do wish people would realize that all the ''rational preparation'' in the world cannot prepare anyone for the actual experience of being assaulted. There are statistics, and probabilities, and then there is the experience of having someone much older and stronger tell you to get in the car or he's going to beat you.

I have often lay awake at night imagining what I would do if someone broke in. What if they had a gun? What if they had a knife? I've done all sorts of heroic things in my daydreams, like smashing a lamp over the would-be assailant's head, or crouching behind the door and waiting until he entered to lay out the surprise attack. I imagine all of that ''preparation'' would amount to jack shit were I actually staring down the barrel of a pistol.

I also think, Jragon, you're underestimating the potential negative impact of reporting a rape and having it ignored. The potential consequences for someone making claims of rape can be pretty dire, and negative reactions by friends and family members have been proven to increase the probability of PTSD following a trauma. In fact, I'm willing to bet one of the reasons rape leads to PTSD so much more frequently than other traumatic events is in part due to the lack of social support victims face following disclosure. As someone who reported sexual abuse to a counselor and pretty much had my family disown me as a result, I have no issue believing that keeping your mouth shut is the most rational choice. Sometimes I honestly wish that I had never said a word. That is one hell of a Pandora's Box to open, and I don't think you should minimize that in your rational consideration of ''the right thing to do.''

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 03-12-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
So we should look at being raped- or the raping of our daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers, as some kind of character building learning experience?
Yes, I'd say it's best to look at every negative experience as such, to not do so is to let the experience control you. Now, it's not like this is easy at all, and it's not like you can't be overwhelmingly hurt, sad, angry etc while looking at it like this. I'm just saying, looking at it like this in the long run can make things better, and generally people want things to be better. It's a very emotional, terrible, heart-wrenching experience, but just because something has an effect on our emotions doesn't mean we can't also use our brains.

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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
So you are quantifying how much a fourth grader did to "cause" men to gang rape her. That's sick. The Chinese will now say that Chairman Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong. I'm sure the families of the people he killed appreciate having an exact number on that.
No, specifically in this case I'm measuring the reaction, not what she did to "cause" her rape. Like I said, it ridiculously minuscule, and wrongness worth mattering lies on the people who didn't instruct her correctly, and of course the rapists. Besides, there are damn good reasons to be wrong, like being traumatized, it's not like I blame her, I'm just trying to look at this in as much of an emotionally detached manner possible to see if I can sniff out a cost/benefit analysis of actions one can take in the aftermath of bad rape situations.

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If they hadn't have raped her, they'd have raped some other little girl. There will always be relatively unsupervised kids somewhere. If there really are no kids like that in their community, they will find a teenager with normal teen freedoms. The gang rape of a teen is pretty much equally as horrific. So even if this girl had been capable of doing enough "right" to prevent these men from raping her, all you'd be doing is substituting one victim for another. On the grand scale, this is not a gain at all.
Like I said, in this specific case I'm measuring the aftermath, when the rape already happened and she could have reported them for a concrete crime. Going to jail tends to inhibit rape of little girls by that party. And these people aren't interchangeable, even if she somehow prevented them from raping her altogether the next person is an unknown, she could know martial arts to take down groups of attackers (a little outlandish). It's not necessarily a direct exchange, different situations can pop up. Hell, maybe they would have robbed a convenience store instead and they would have gotten arrested before they even tried another rape.

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Originally Posted by Fiveroptic View Post
No, I think Jragon is trying to say that even the worst tragedy can produce a glimmer of good, a sentiment with which I heartily agree. I think he just said it in a way that perhaps didn't convey his intent.

At least that's what I got out of it.
That's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
Lynn said she made the best decision she could under the circumstances--submit to what the rapists told her or get beaten. She did what she felt she had to do. Jragon's response was that maybe being beaten would have been a good thing. It's just like...is there nothing a rape victim can do that won't be scrutinized?
Well, strictly speaking I don't think anything anybody does should go without scrutiny, that's how we learn things, that's how we develop new means to make the world better. Now, there is a such thing as time and place, I'm not going to scrutinize the girl to her face or her parents, but on a message board far away from her attention I think its ultimately useful to society to try to objectively look at every little part of the situation, no matter how insensitive it seems.

And no, I didn't say she shouldn't have submitted to getting raped. She had two choices: get raped or get beaten and possibly killed. Getting raped was the logical choice at that juncture. What I was referring to is that after the fact she can either not say anything and get raped repeatedly (which happened), or she can call the cops once home. The latter choice has a lot of potential positive outcomes, it's no longer a strict division between "raped" and "beaten" and starts to include possibilities like "getting them in prison."

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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
I think we all know the answer to that question. I don't think Jragon meant to convey what he apparently did, but I do wish people would realize that all the ''rational preparation'' in the world cannot prepare anyone for the actual experience of being assaulted. There are statistics, and probabilities, and then there is the experience of having someone much older and stronger tell you to get in the car or he's going to beat you.
I'm aware, I'm taking the most emotionally detached approach possible. I just think that drilling stuff like this into kid's heads is liable to make them more likely to do the right thing. Yeah, it's emotional and I don't blame them at all, making that choice under emotional distress is bound to be incredibly hard no matter how prepared you think you are. I just think that preparing makes you more likely to do the right thing (whatever it is, and in whatever situation) than not preparing at all.

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I also think, Jragon, you're underestimating the potential negative impact of reporting a rape and having it ignored. The potential consequences for someone making claims of rape can be pretty dire, and negative reactions by friends and family members have been proven to increase the probability of PTSD following a trauma. In fact, I'm willing to bet one of the reasons rape leads to PTSD so much more frequently than other traumatic events is in part due to the lack of social support victims face following disclosure. As someone who reported sexual abuse to a counselor and pretty much had my family disown me as a result, I have no issue believing that keeping your mouth shut is the most rational choice. Sometimes I honestly wish that I had never said a word. That is one hell of a Pandora's Box to open, and I don't think you should minimize that in your rational consideration of ''the right thing to do.''
I wouldn't say I'm necessarily underestimating the effect of those scenarios, what I might be doing is underestimating their relative likelihood. Yeah, that's a shitty situation, possibly even worse than being beaten and killed. On the other hand, I don't want to give catchall advice to a rape victim that says "keep your mouth shut because nobody will believe you." It may be a bit naive, but it seems to me promoting that point of view ultimately causes more societal harm than good. At the same time, if keeping quiet is truly the least likely to cause, on average, the most harm, I don't want to ask anybody to martyr themselves for the sake of some nebulous ideal of making the world a better place. It really does depend on probabilities and weights (and no, in real life you can't assign some numeric weight to a situation, I'm just using the term for ease). I suppose it depends on the situation to a large degree, in this case keeping quiet may very well have been the correct option, it does seem like her assailants were well connected enough that she might have been made a mockery of and then just get raped more. I personally still think that telling still is the best choice, but perhaps it's not quite as clear cut as I initially thought when I was pondering it.

Last edited by Jragon; 03-12-2011 at 02:58 PM.
  #229  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:50 PM
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And in the story, we hear the locals saying that she was a ho, that she basically asked for it because of her dress and behavior. I would say that this little girl knew EXACTLY what sort of reaction she would have received if she'd reported it...that is, that SHE would be blamed for it. So in addition to getting raped, she got shamed as well.
  #230  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
Yes, I'd say it's best to look at every negative experience as such, to not do so is to let the experience control you. Now, it's not like this is easy at all, and it's not like you can't be overwhelmingly hurt, sad, angry etc while looking at it like this. I'm just saying, looking at it like this in the long run can make things better, and generally people want things to be better. It's a very emotional, terrible, heart-wrenching experience, but just because something has an effect on our emotions doesn't mean we can't also use our brains.
Some stuff just sucks, and there is no redeeming factors. I was once violently assaulted and the attackers broke three of my vertebrae. Nothing good came of it. There were no lessons learned, no deep revelations, nothing good at all. It hurt, scared my family, messed up what should have been a very important time in my life, and gave me nightmares for a couple years. That's it. That's what it did. Not everything happens for a reason. Not every hurt makes us stronger.
  #231  
Old 03-12-2011, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveroptic View Post
Avoiding the guests at your First Communion party who wish to offer a congratulatory handshake is NOT the same as escaping gang rape at age eleven.
Having a pedophile try to drag you into a car at the age of 8 and having to convince a police officer that no that man was not your father certainly is. Having a teacher threaten to flunk you if he didn't get a blow job at the age of 11 certainly is. I definitely know I had seen more of the rough side of the world at 11 than a child growing up in Cleveland, Texas. I've been to Cleveland. It's rural and isolated and suffers from all the evils of small towns, but it's hardly as dangerous as many places.

Last edited by ZPG Zealot; 03-12-2011 at 04:00 PM.
  #232  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
I'm aware, I'm taking the most emotionally detached approach possible. I just think that drilling stuff like this into kid's heads is liable to make them more likely to do the right thing. Yeah, it's emotional and I don't blame them at all, making that choice under emotional distress is bound to be incredibly hard no matter how prepared you think you are. I just think that preparing makes you more likely to do the right thing (whatever it is, and in whatever situation) than not preparing at all.
I do think you have a point. In one longitudinal study I read about, general sex abuse education for elementary school students did absolutely nothing to prevent sex abuse - but it did significantly reduce the number of kids who developed PTSD, theoretically because they had already learned and understood that it wasn't their fault, and had some clue what to expect. In that sense I think general preparation is good.

But you can also hear strong messages like this every day and still be unprepared. I rationalized the hell out of my own abuse while watching specials on Oprah and feeling very sorry for ''those girls.'' I know it's not the same thing, but I find it completely within the realm of possibility that this girl never identified what had happened to her as rape, never considered that it could be anything other than her fault and her responsibility. And I think that can happen regardless of the extent to which one is educated or prepared. To give you an idea of how common that might be, take a gander at one of the old ''grey rape'' threads on this Board and how many women report clear examples of rape and don't identify it as such, even years later, with the wisdom of age.
  #233  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
Some stuff just sucks, and there is no redeeming factors. I was once violently assaulted and the attackers broke three of my vertebrae. Nothing good came of it. There were no lessons learned, no deep revelations, nothing good at all. It hurt, scared my family, messed up what should have been a very important time in my life, and gave me nightmares for a couple years. That's it. That's what it did. Not everything happens for a reason. Not every hurt makes us stronger.
I feel like violently assaulting someone when they say 'When life gives you lemons, make lemonade'. If life doesn't give you sugar too, that lemonade will suck, and I don't like lemonade very much anyway. Hopefully there is a positive side to this incident because it's exposure will make more people aware of the problem, and decrease the chance of it happening again. But I don't see a positive side for the victim at all. I find it hard to believe that the victim is in any way better off from being gang raped. I don't think that's what Jragon intended to say, but I can understand someone reading it that way.
  #234  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:11 PM
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Darn, if only they had been Muslims, magellan could have started another thread.
  #235  
Old 03-12-2011, 06:27 PM
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I feel like violently assaulting someone when they say 'When life gives you lemons, make lemonade'. If life doesn't give you sugar too, that lemonade will suck, and I don't like lemonade very much anyway. Hopefully there is a positive side to this incident because it's exposure will make more people aware of the problem, and decrease the chance of it happening again. But I don't see a positive side for the victim at all. I find it hard to believe that the victim is in any way better off from being gang raped. I don't think that's what Jragon intended to say, but I can understand someone reading it that way.
My point wasn't "she is better off from being gang raped" or even necessarily "make the best out of your rape" so much as "her life was hell while being gang raped, but the eventual arrest of the perpetrators via <insert action here> would make it less of a hell." Fair enough that in this case the whole town was basically against her, maybe she did make the right choice. And I'll check out those "grey rape" threads.
  #236  
Old 03-12-2011, 06:34 PM
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I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the people who should be teaching safety to children who end up being raped and molested, are the very people doing the raping and molesting. Most victims of molestation are molested by people they already know.

So a little girl who "should know how to keep herself safe" is only doing what she's been taught her whole life, that she is a sex toy and she better keep quiet about it.

And saying she should have told after, trust me, many of us tell and many of us are not believed and those who do believe don't care to do anything anyway.
  #237  
Old 03-12-2011, 06:41 PM
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In one of the links to the story, I read that the girl's parents are having a tough time of it and may split up. The girl has expressed regret about having told.

That's so sad. If she'd known all the trouble telling would cause, she wouldn't have told. I'm sure that attitude is very common in kids in these situations.

Last edited by levdrakon; 03-12-2011 at 06:42 PM.
  #238  
Old 03-12-2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
bengangmo:

While I think I agree with your main point, you are phrasing it very poorly and I can understand people getting upset.

This is an 11 year old girl we are talking about. It is absurd to focus on how she should change her behavior, because it is incredibly easy for adult men to manipulate an 11 year old girl.

Essentially, the questions are the same, but the focus is different. We shouldn't ask "why was this girl already having sex with adult men", we should ask "how were adult men already raping this girl and nobody did anything about it."

We shouldn't ask "why did she take a ride with a 19 year old", we should ask "why did a 19 year old take her for a ride and why didn't anyone find that disturbing."

We shouldn't tell her "don't wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with an older crowd", we should ask "who/what influenced/manipulated/forced her to wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with this crowd".

Because she is an 11 year old girl being victimized by adults. That doesn't make her stupid or reckless. It makes her 11, and them adults.
Thank you, this is exactly what I am trying to convey
  #239  
Old 03-12-2011, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmady
This is an 11 year old girl we are talking about. It is absurd to focus on how she should change her behavior, because it is incredibly easy for adult men to manipulate an 11 year old girl.

Essentially, the questions are the same, but the focus is different. We shouldn't ask "why was this girl already having sex with adult men", we should ask "how were adult men already raping this girl and nobody did anything about it."

We shouldn't ask "why did she take a ride with a 19 year old", we should ask "why did a 19 year old take her for a ride and why didn't anyone find that disturbing."

We shouldn't tell her "don't wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with an older crowd", we should ask "who/what influenced/manipulated/forced her to wear adult clothes and make up and hang out with this crowd".
And specifically, why didn't her parents do anything about it, and why didn't the parents of the people who were raping her do anything about that?

The victim is not responsible for her actions, because she was eleven years old. Who the bloody fuck was responsible for her actions? And why the hell didn't they do something before it ended up in gang rape?

Regards,
Shodan
  #240  
Old 03-12-2011, 11:43 PM
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Moderator note


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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
Are you always this monumentally thick? Do you have an intellectual disability? Is there something in your make-up that prevents you from understanding simple arguments presented in a simple way? I'm finding it hard to believe you really are this stupid, but anyway, it seems that this thread has become pretty pointless since your arrival margin.


[This thread has been stupided by the STUPIDIST]
If you wish to insult another poster, take it to the Pit, don't do it in MPSIMS.

No warning issued.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator
  #241  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:35 AM
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Twickster, I'll take the warning on board but my comment to margin was in response to her post here:
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Originally Posted by margin View Post

..... and no one who's not vile could blame victims the way you do.
IMHO, I would suggest calling someone 'vile' is a lot more insulting than merely calling them stupid.

But again, note taken and I will refrain from calling her a moron in future.


Last edited by kambuckta; 03-13-2011 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Forgot to highlight Twicks' name.
  #242  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:11 AM
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Are you always this monumentally thick? Do you have an intellectual disability? Is there something in your make-up that prevents you from understanding simple arguments presented in a simple way? I'm finding it hard to believe you really are this stupid, but anyway, it seems that this thread has become pretty pointless since your arrival margin.


[This thread has been stupided by the STUPIDIST]

Yeah, you're blaming somebody who's pointing out the idiocy of blaming victims while shielding or ignoring attackers. And you were saying? I can hardly wait till somebody starts whining about false rape accusations. We've had victim blaming from the first page, but go ahead, ignore that.
  #243  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake View Post
Absolutely---What a tragedy it would be if more children were raised in a stable, loving home with both a mother and a father acting as role models, providing guidance and care.

The horror.....
I guess no girls in nice, stable, two parent families are ever horrifically raped.

And how does a divorce get an erection and rape an eleven-year-old? Seeing as how her parents' marital status apparently did more to 'contribute' to this rape than did the actual rapists, not to mention the people who are twisting themselves in knots to blame this little girl while acting like 'getting raped' is some sort of weather phenomenon, like rain, that one 'avoids.'

Guess what? When you ignore rapists, when you refuse to blame rapists and blame the victim, you're helping them. The way some people in this thread absolutely refuse to admit that the girl did nothing wrong, that maybe bystanders and bros could stop rapists, that maybe rapists are the ones to blame for rape-----!

Last edited by margin; 03-13-2011 at 10:16 AM.
  #244  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:19 AM
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Most of the discussion is rational and looking to provide possible solutions to what was an horrendous crime against the very humanity of the little girl involved.

Unfortunately the minority are behaving like shrieking harpies, picking individual posted words to rail against, not engaging in any legitimate discourse, and making themselves look like fools and/or trolls.

Meh, just another day on the SDMB I guess.

Cite? And using sexist dogwhistles like 'shrieking harpies' sure is revealing. God, those damned women, getting upset at a bunch of guys blaming an eleven-year-old for getting herself raped. What a bunch of unreasonable bitches!

Just a bunch of guys ignoring rapists, being sexist, blaming the victim, calling women sexist names, and then whining about how everybody else is intellectually inferior to them and their tired, long-since-discredited, uninformed, frat boy viewpoint of rape.
  #245  
Old 03-13-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by margin
how does a divorce get an erection and rape an eleven-year-old?
Asked the freshest of the 500+ bumper stickers festooning a tatterdemalion hatchback...
  #246  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:02 PM
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Asked the freshest of the 500+ bumper stickers festooning a tatterdemalion hatchback...
Because watching a bunch of men talk about how an elven-year-old rape victim asked for it, and didn't prevent it, is the province of some bleeding heart hippie, huh?


So I guess you think she asked for it, too? I mean, let's get rid of the pretense. She's been called a ho by at least one poster here. A lot of people here think she's to blame and they don't want to talk about how she was eleven and the only person to blame for a rape is the rapist. They don't want to talk about the rapists at all. And getting angry at this means you're a shrieking harpie, to quote one poster, or a moron, to quote another. And you? You get snotty about people pointing out that an eleven year old kid is not to blame for what adults do. Nice side you picked.

Last edited by margin; 03-13-2011 at 01:05 PM.
  #247  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:15 PM
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In a thread this polarizing and unproductive, it's easy to forget that every subject need not be a complete either-or. We can condemn rapists AND negligent parenting AND strive to teach children to be careful, for example. And we can all agree this story is a tragedy and a crime for which the guilty should be severely punished, AND you can be a shrieking harpy.
  #248  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:18 PM
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That's why you TEACH THEM WHAT TO DO. It's the same idea as conditioning soldiers to not hesitate to shoot a human target, or hell, giving kids timed math quizzes so they're calmer and able to think clearer under test pressure*. Or any number of "just say no" drug PSAs. If you drive the point in early and hard then it increases the chances of them making the rational choice under pressure. That's not to say she doesn't have a right to be emotional or act irrationally at ALL, it's just that if you teach them properly they should find it easier to act rationally, even at a young age. And no, it's still not a perfect system, but I'm trying to work for a maximum of good situations given the current state of affairs in the world, not make everything perfect.

* No, not the same level of severity at all. Just a similar principle.
No you don't teach an 11 year old to "make the rational choice in a situation." Not hesitating when shooting, or just say no PSAs are the antithesis of "making the rational choice." They are firm rules, without consideration for the situation. You teach an 11 year old not to go into a car without her parents' knowledge. My objection was to your use of the term "rational choice" which is singularly inappropriate. You give simple strict rules.
  #249  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:28 PM
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Because watching a bunch of men talk about how an elven-year-old rape victim asked for it, and didn't prevent it, is the province of some bleeding heart hippie, huh?
Vinyl Turnip was making a joke. Possibly, you know, to diffuse the tension. Though I can't imagine why he thought there might be tension in a thread about rape on the SDMB. Clearly we had all just about reached our ''kumbayah'' moment.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 03-13-2011 at 01:28 PM.
  #250  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:53 PM
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In a thread this polarizing and unproductive, it's easy to forget that every subject need not be a complete either-or. We can condemn rapists AND negligent parenting AND strive to teach children to be careful, for example. And we can all agree this story is a tragedy and a crime for which the guilty should be severely punished, AND you can be a shrieking harpy.

What you're exerting a great deal of effort to avoid is that this is not some property crime, it's the rape of an elven-year-old child.

And 'shrieking harpy' is sexist.

I do SO love it when some people act as if watching a bunch of men attack an eleven-year-old is no big deal, but critisizing them for it makes one a 'shrieking harpy'. Yes, dear, it's an over reaction to find it disgusting the way the men here are attacking this girl. Really.

Doesn't say anything about you at all.

When it comes to rape, in fact, there is no other side. There's only the fact that rapists cause rape, not the things that victims do or don't do, and the men of the SDMB really, for some reason, want to avoid confronting the notion that rape is the rapist's fault, and no one else's. You can't agree to disagree on that. Rape is the rapist's fault.

It's just that it's especially obscene watching people----a substantial number of whom are men----attacking the child who was raped, while brushing off any and all discussion about the actual rapists. And then they act like they're the reasonable ones.
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