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  #251  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:02 PM
stw004 is offline
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
Having a pedophile try to drag you into a car at the age of 8 and having to convince a police officer that no that man was not your father certainly is. Having a teacher threaten to flunk you if he didn't get a blow job at the age of 11 certainly is. I definitely know I had seen more of the rough side of the world at 11 than a child growing up in Cleveland, Texas. I've been to Cleveland. It's rural and isolated and suffers from all the evils of small towns, but it's hardly as dangerous as many places.
You know nothing of Cleveland, Texas. Since you've been there I guess noticed the large Interstate Highway running through the middle of the town, or the fact that it's only half an hour from the 4th largest city in th US. Or I guess you noticed raging crack cocaine problems that infest the community, or maybe you noticed the proximity to all the state prison units, whose parolees are prohibited from leaving the county of their release. Sure, there are places in this world more dangerous than Cleveland, but it's incredibly self absorbed for you to assume you've seen more of the rough side of the world then a child there.
  #252  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
What you're exerting a great deal of effort to avoid is that this is not some property crime, it's the rape of an elven-year-old child.

And 'shrieking harpy' is sexist.

I do SO love it when some people act as if watching a bunch of men attack an eleven-year-old is no big deal, but critisizing them for it makes one a 'shrieking harpy'. Yes, dear, it's an over reaction to find it disgusting the way the men here are attacking this girl. Really.

Doesn't say anything about you at all.

When it comes to rape, in fact, there is no other side. There's only the fact that rapists cause rape, not the things that victims do or don't do, and the men of the SDMB really, for some reason, want to avoid confronting the notion that rape is the rapist's fault, and no one else's. You can't agree to disagree on that. Rape is the rapist's fault.

It's just that it's especially obscene watching people----a substantial number of whom are men----attacking the child who was raped, while brushing off any and all discussion about the actual rapists. And then they act like they're the reasonable ones.
Nobody has said this is not a big deal, in fact the opposite that this is a VERY big deal.

Nobody has said that the little girl's behaviour caused or mitigates the culpability of the men involved.

Nobody is attacking the child who was raped.

You are wilfully misrepresenting what people are actually saying in this thread.

Cut it out.

Oh, and FTR, I'm a woman, and I know plenty of male shrieking harpies too. Idiocy on this scale knows no gender boundaries it seems.
  #253  
Old 03-13-2011, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
Vinyl Turnip was making a joke. Possibly, you know, to diffuse the tension. Though I can't imagine why he thought there might be tension in a thread about rape on the SDMB. Clearly we had all just about reached our ''kumbayah'' moment.
On one of the previous contentious rape thread somebody, might have been Clocky, suggested as a joke that we have a rape forum, since we have so many threads about it. It'd be cuddly, like MPSIMS.
  #254  
Old 03-13-2011, 06:33 PM
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It's nice that folks abandoned the Texas bashing early on. I would have had to come in here and defend the whole state. So thanks for that. As far as I give a shit, we should pour kerosene all over the place between Houston and, say, Arkansas. Then start throwing lit matches.
  #255  
Old 03-13-2011, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension View Post
On one of the previous contentious rape thread somebody, might have been Clocky, suggested as a joke that we have a rape forum, since we have so many threads about it. It'd be cuddly, like MPSIMS.
Woah, I'd hate to see that set of smileys.
  #256  
Old 03-13-2011, 09:20 PM
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You know nothing of Cleveland, Texas. Since you've been there I guess noticed the large Interstate Highway running through the middle of the town, or the fact that it's only half an hour from the 4th largest city in th US. Or I guess you noticed raging crack cocaine problems that infest the community, or maybe you noticed the proximity to all the state prison units, whose parolees are prohibited from leaving the county of their release. Sure, there are places in this world more dangerous than Cleveland, but it's incredibly self absorbed for you to assume you've seen more of the rough side of the world then a child there.
And I am living in that 4th largest city in the US. There are drug houses in my neighborhood. The junkies in my neighborhood are one reason I have a CHL and keep a 20-gauge in my shop. I have lived in some of Chicago, Nasheville, and Atlanta's worst sections. And I have lived in a country with a raging civil war going on where the rapists are armed packs with AK-47s. Cleveland is relatively safe place.
  #257  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:16 AM
margin is offline
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Nobody has said this is not a big deal, in fact the opposite that this is a VERY big deal.

Nobody has said that the little girl's behaviour caused or mitigates the culpability of the men involved.

Nobody is attacking the child who was raped.

You are wilfully misrepresenting what people are actually saying in this thread.

Cut it out.

Oh, and FTR, I'm a woman, and I know plenty of male shrieking harpies too. Idiocy on this scale knows no gender boundaries it seems.
So, if a guy says "Welfare Queen" he's not racist in your book, huh? Because he didn't use some nuclear racist option, he's not racist? Here's a clue: Ann Coulter's a woman, too. You want a cookie? If a guy doesn't lynch a black person or use the 'n' word there are some morons who think that that's not racist. Likewise, there are also idiots who think that if some asshole on a discussion about rape doesn't say, "I hereby declare and affirm that this victim asked for, provoked, and totally deserved to be raped," that they're not blaming the victim.

I could name a whole list of women who are absolute shits to other women, who think they're special sparkly snowflakes because the guys think they're cool. Your attitude speaks for itself. You're on the side of guys who are blaming the victim.
  #258  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:22 AM
MPB in Salt Lake is offline
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
You want a cookie?
What kind of cookie?

An oreo?

A black and white cookie?

A Chinese fortune cookie?

A Mexican wedding cookie?

A Jesus-Killing, hook nosed Jew cookie?
  #259  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
You're on the side of guys who are blaming the victim.
What guys?

Quote:
A Jesus-Killing, hook nosed Jew cookie?
Does it come in Bacon Flavour?

  #260  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake View Post
What kind of cookie?

An oreo?

A black and white cookie?

A Chinese fortune cookie?

A Mexican wedding cookie?

A Jesus-Killing, hook nosed Jew cookie?
Are we all out of Death Cookies again?
  #261  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:53 AM
margin is offline
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Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
What guys?



Does it come in Bacon Flavour?

Apparently it better come in Black or White flavor because anything else eludes you.
  #262  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:17 AM
kambuckta is offline
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OK margin, I'm back here in MPSIMS so that I can ask you a straight question without vitriol.

What do you suggest we do to stop rape?

As Vinyl mentioned upthread aways (and a position I agree with) it's not an either/or situation. We can (and should) impose the harshest penalties upon rapists, study them, metaphorically disect their brains etc but that should not preclude also educating our children to recognise inappropriate attention from others.

Most parents instill into their children a clear message that 'some' touching is ok, but other touching is not ok. In most families it starts when the littlies are very young: running around without your nappy or knickers on is fine to a certain age, but come the time when the child's natural modesty takes over, it is incumbent upon parents and other caregivers to a) respect that modesty, and b) reaffirm to the child that their 'private parts' are theirs and theirs alone. NOBODY should be looking at or touching their bodies whilst they are naked. And if anybody does touch them, they need to feel it's OK to tell their parents about what has happened. Immediately.

Y'see, that's what's gone wrong for this little girl. She has done nothing wrong herself, but for whatever reason, the normal social mores have disintegrated in her immediate family/community. Her boundaries to understand what's OK and what's NOT OK were obviously very fragile, and she started off as a victim of sexual abuse, and ended a victim of even more horrendous abuse. Had she had the confidence to speak to her mum/dad/close family relative after the first occasion, maybe things might not have turned out like they did.

BUT SHE DIDN'T, and there's (I would suggest) a very good reason for that. Children who become sexually active at an early age are often victims of familial sexual abuse. IOW, my wag was there was someone in her family or very close to it who was already abusing this little girl, long before she started having sex with the 19yr old.

So yeah, sure, lock up rapists for the term of their natural lives: I've got no problem with that.

But this little girl isn't going to be so easy to heal. And there's going to be more predators just around the corner waiting for a vulnerable soul like her to pounce upon.

So, what's your solution margin?
  #263  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:32 AM
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It's nice that folks abandoned the Texas bashing early on. I would have had to come in here and defend the whole state. So thanks for that. As far as I give a shit, we should pour kerosene all over the place between Houston and, say, Arkansas. Then start throwing lit matches.
Lit matches go out when thrown in kerosene. You need gasoline for that.
  #264  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:59 AM
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Well for starters you can drop the atttitude. If defending an eleven-year-old makes me vitriolic, what does NOTdefending her make you?

I guess you haven't read anything I've said either.

The victim needs to stop being the focus of discussion. The rapist does. And do you have a cite for any of that crap that you just trotted out about rapists and children and culture? No, I bet you don't.

Saying that the girl just didn't have any boundaries is blaming the victim. Jesus. "This is what's wrong with this girl. This is why she got raped." And that kind of mindset assumes that there are crowds of rapists around, waiting to rape any woman or girl who unfortunately doesn't have boundaries. Why do you hate men so much that you think they're all rapists?

So, for starters:
1. The victim didn't do anything wrong. What this kind of victim blaming assumes, always, is that the victim did something wrong, and that by studying it we can prevent the rape of the next victim. People are exerting a lot of effort here in avoiding any and all discussion of the rapist, such as lamenting the lack of two-parent families, which obviously would have totally protected the victim. Girls from two parent families never get raped, just as men from two parent families do not become rapists, at least when Shodan and Starving Artist put their heads together.

The 'advice' and analysis on this thread is all about what the victim did wrong: according to the experts here, the victim didn't say no, didn't report promptly, and didn't know any better. Several people have said, incorrectly, that the victim was having a 'sexual relationship' with a nineteen-year-old man. No. She was raped, repeatedly.

Giving stupid advice about saying no---OMG, cry rape victims, why didn't I think of that?!---or reporting is stupid because in this victim's world she obviously did not have either choice. Several commenters didn't bother to read the story which indicates she was kidnapped, threatened, and so forth. This kind of advice assumes there's a perfect world out there, in which a victim reporting or saying no is possible. It's not. Which is why talking about the victim is stupid because here's what your advice winds up to:

Victim: No.

Rapist: No?! Okay, I'll go away now and rape some other woman who doesn't know the magic world.

All this advice is stupid because it's already been trotted out and it's useless if it's not realistically possible, plus it's old. Heard it all before, don't care to hear it again, thanks for wasting my time. Recognotion of that needs to be the first step. You're not original and you're not helping as long as you devote time to searching out what's wrong with the victim.

Finally, this mindset demands that the victim be alert and on her guard twenty four seven. If she's anything less, well, then, it's on her, she could have prevented that rape otherwise.

I've said it before, numerous times: focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist. How did HE grow up? Where were HIS parents? Oh, he's already a rapist, it's hopeless to do anything, let's just focus on the victim.

But there's other people here. The people in this thread and in every rape discussion ever, who leap right into blaming the victim, who ignore the rapist. You want to stop rape? Stop being on the rapist's side.

If you have discussions about this stuff in real life, I guarantee that there's at leat one rapist in any large group, and while you're blaming the victim, he's getting all happy, because you're on his side. When somebody tells a joke about rape, stop them. When somebody tells a joke about prison rape, stand up and say that that's not funny. Because just as there's probably a rapist listening, there's undoubtedly at least a couple of rape victims, there, and that, right there, is why this victim didn't report and didn't think she could say no. I've yet to hear a rape joke that wasn't about how the victim was either really glad she got raped, liked it immensely, enjoyed it, lied about it, exaggerated it because she was stupid and hysterical, and so on. Jokes about one's prison 'bitch' are the same. You're going to get raped in prison, how hilarious. Somebody who goes to prison deserves it, apparently, because I anticipate a wave of, "Humorless bitch," rolling in any minute now.

Ending rape is not quick or easy. If you have a friend who makes sexist jokes---against men or women---stop them. Pay attention. There's been several cases in the news of quick-thinking waittresses and waiters who stopped rapes from happening because they observed men putting stuff in their date's drinks and called the cops and confiscated the drink.

And keep in mind that in some cases, you might not be a hero. You might be wrong. You might lose friends, including that annoying friend who apparently everybody has, the one who shows up in just about every discussion about rape, the buddy who was falsely accused of rape by some crazy lying bitch, or by some slut, or by some ex who wanted revenge. Crazy lying bitches....they get raped, too, and maybe what some people call lies are just the truth that they don't want to hear.

Another thing that many commenters have refused to own up to is the fact that one is not off the hook by avoiding a clear, simple, declarative statement of blame. I cannot believe I have to say this again, but saying, "I hereby blame and attack this victim for participating in, acceding to, provoking, and asking for her own rape," is not the only way one can blame the victim. You're not being wronged when someone points out that obsessing over what the victim does is victim blaming. Some people were so eager to blame the victim that they apparently did not read the linked article. At all.

What, you wanted a simple solution? Well, there isn't one, to the extent that this is an age old problem. But correcting the ignorance needs to be the first step, and once that's done it's impossible not to change the focus. Don't blame the victim. Blame the rapist. Try reading some actual books about the subject. Accept that rape avoidance advice has already been offered, and it's stupid, because built into it is the belief that rape is easy to avoid and that victims are just too damned stupid to get off their asses, so to speak, and keep themselves safe. "Oh, gee, this victim didn't know she could say no!" Yeah, with eighteen men and boys around her, threatening her, saying No would have magically worked!

For reading, try this first: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com...the-predators/

Oh, but if it doesn't get called 'rape' by the rapists, it's not really rape, is it? I can hear the cries of outrage already.
  #265  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:30 AM
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I also think, Jragon, you're underestimating the potential negative impact of reporting a rape and having it ignored. The potential consequences for someone making claims of rape can be pretty dire, and negative reactions by friends and family members have been proven to increase the probability of PTSD following a trauma. In fact, I'm willing to bet one of the reasons rape leads to PTSD so much more frequently than other traumatic events is in part due to the lack of social support victims face following disclosure. As someone who reported sexual abuse to a counselor and pretty much had my family disown me as a result, I have no issue believing that keeping your mouth shut is the most rational choice. Sometimes I honestly wish that I had never said a word. That is one hell of a Pandora's Box to open, and I don't think you should minimize that in your rational consideration of ''the right thing to do.''
I couldn't agree more. My own rape was reported to my clergy by my parents... the clergyman proceeded to question me (much like the actions of the 11-year-old in this thread have been questioned) and then punished me with sanctions for not fighting to the death. Because the victim was blamed in my case, my rape was not reported to the proper authorities. In my family, the clergyman issuing punishment on me for getting myself raped closed the issue. It was considered "correctly handled."

Had I gone straight to the authorities myself, I still would have been punished after the fact. I would not have ever considered it, because the blame-the-victim mentality is so prevalent in our society, that I knew I'd never be believed or the perp would get off scot-free anyway. Hell, I saw The Accused; I know what rape victims have to go through. No way was I putting myself through that. Nothing like reliving the trauma over and over and over again just to justify your own actions. Fuck that.
  #266  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:44 AM
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What do you suggest we do to stop rape?
There is nothing that women can do to prevent rape. Women in taliban Afghanistan, who wore burkas and were confined to their homes, still got raped. Old women in nursing homes get raped. Babies get raped. There is no degree of confinement, no degree of modesty, no degree of protection that will stop rape.

I had someone on this board suggest that a woman should never walk outside at night in my (public-transit dependent) city. This was said in all seriousness.

The list of things women are not supposed to do is amazing- we are not supposed to go into parking lots, live on the first floor, use our voice on our answering machines, drink, drive long distances, work late or take night classes, flirt, jog, wear sexy clothes (but of course, you also don't want to be a prude,) etc. All of us pick and choose from this list, in ways that really do constrain our lives, and we live in fear of the times we do try to live normal lives (which gets called "taking risks.") And you know what? We still get raped.

We can't be the ones who stop this. We try. We really, really, really don't want to get raped. But we can't live normal lives while also doing "enough" to satisfy people's criticism when we get raped.
  #267  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:18 PM
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Lit matches go out when thrown in kerosene. You need gasoline for that.
How about charcoal lighter fluid? Plenty of that in east Texas.
  #268  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:40 PM
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How about charcoal lighter fluid? Plenty of that in east Texas.
Actually, that is kerosene. It's just more refined, to get the stinkier stuff out, and undyed. Then they charge you 3 times as much for it. Zippo lighter fuel will work. That's Naptha, which is more refined gasoline, undyed and 3X the price, too.
  #269  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:03 PM
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Fuck it, I'm dropping napalm on everything between Houston and Shreveport.
  #270  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:05 PM
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Fuck it, I'm dropping napalm on everything between Houston and Shreveport.
Stop blaming the victim! Why do you continue to protect the rapists??
  #271  
Old 03-14-2011, 03:23 PM
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Well for starters you can drop the atttitude.
That's rich - you come into the thread screaming and then complain about other poster's attitude.
Quote:
Saying that the girl just didn't have any boundaries is blaming the victim.
No it isn't. She is eleven years old, and not responsible for herself.
Quote:
"This is what's wrong with this girl. This is why she got raped."
No one has said this.
Quote:
The victim didn't do anything wrong.
I and others in the thread have said this, over and over again.
Quote:
People are exerting a lot of effort here in avoiding any and all discussion of the rapist, such as lamenting the lack of two-parent families, which obviously would have totally protected the victim. Girls from two parent families never get raped, just as men from two parent families do not become rapists, at least when Shodan and Starving Artist put their heads together.
You made up the words "totally" and "never" and dishonestly inserted them into the thread.
Quote:
This kind of advice assumes there's a perfect world out there, in which a victim reporting or saying no is possible. It's not.
So it is not possible to say No to a man? So we need never teach our children to say No?

That is about as stupidly grotesque a statement as I have seen on the SDMB recently.
Quote:
I've said it before, numerous times: focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist. How did HE grow up? Where were HIS parents?
Why do you pitch a tantrum about my statement that rapists often come from single-parent, or abusive homes, and then repeat it here as an example of what needs to be done? Have you had a head injury?
Quote:
You want to stop rape? Stop being on the rapist's side.
No one in this thread is on the rapists' side.

Do you think you can stop making things up and blaming other people for them?

Regards,
Shodan
  #272  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:00 PM
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The problem with answering "focus on the rapist" is that the question was "How do you prevent rapes?". If we can prevent rapes, then there won't be any rapists to focus on.

The whole idea of prevention is to hopefully stop it from happening. How do we do that? I have no idea.
  #273  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:08 PM
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The problem with answering "focus on the rapist" is that the question was "How do you prevent rapes?". If we can prevent rapes, then there won't be any rapists to focus on.

The whole idea of prevention is to hopefully stop it from happening. How do we do that? I have no idea.
Jesus Christ. Maybe you could make it more apparent that you haven't read a word that anybody else here said.

Shodan, sweetie, why not just come out and say it: you won't agree that anybody's said anything unless they declare that in fact that's what they're doing. You're arguing in blatant bad faith and there's no sense wasting my time with you.
  #274  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:13 PM
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Apparently the answer to this -
Quote:
Do you think you can stop making things up and blaming other people for them?
is No.

Regards,
Shodan
  #275  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:24 PM
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NM.
This story is sad, but it isnt worth getting involved in this discussion. Some of you are amazingly ridiculous.

Last edited by may_be_ignorant; 03-14-2011 at 05:26 PM.
  #276  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:33 PM
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NM.
This story is sad, but it isnt worth getting involved in this discussion. Some of you are amazingly ridiculous.
You edited out the part about Dio getting 'emotional' about somebody suggesting the victim used her feminine wiles'. And how she might have been having relations with 'more than one' person. What's astonishing to me is how many people aren't getting that that is not a relationship. That is rape.

You guys would shriek in outrage if somebody described a victim as 'having a relationship' with an abuser who was a Catholic priest. Yet in this case it's okay. Nobody has said that they were just bringing up things to be said by the defense, and in fact, legally, the victim's history can't be brought up here or just about anywhere. She was raped more than once, yet so many of the guys here want to downgrade it and call it a 'relationship'.

It's very simple and none of the victim-blaming men here will answer it. Why? She was being abused by a much-older man. Why won't most of you guys see it for what it was: a series of rapes?
  #277  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:54 PM
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The problem with answering "focus on the rapist" is that the question was "How do you prevent rapes?". If we can prevent rapes, then there won't be any rapists to focus on.
Not sure I follow.
  #278  
Old 03-14-2011, 08:37 PM
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I haven't interpretted anything said here as blaming the victim. A lot of eleven year old girls are dressed provocatively nowadays. Victoria's Secret has that whole 'pink' line to cater to them. They are also increasingly sexually active in middle school. And I think it's very possible that this girl didn't report it because she had previously 'consented' with one of the boys. I think girls need educated on what rape is and it needs to happen at an early age.

When my daughter was eleven I knew where she was and who she was with at all times, and I had passwords to her facebook and myspace accounts. I do feel that more could have been done to protect this particular child, but as someone has already said "if it wasn't her it would have been someone else"

What can be done to teach boys empathy? Is it something that has to be ingrained early or something that can be introduced later, possibly in a school program of some sort?

There was a similar case in my area. It wasn't a gang rape, but about ten boys all having sex with a twelve year old. Everyone piled on the girl like the poor boys were victims of raging hormones.
  #279  
Old 03-14-2011, 08:49 PM
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I haven't interpretted anything said here as blaming the victim. A lot of eleven year old girls are dressed provocatively nowadays. Victoria's Secret has that whole 'pink' line to cater to them. They are also increasingly sexually active in middle school. And I think it's very possible that this girl didn't report it because she had previously 'consented' with one of the boys. I think girls need educated on what rape is and it needs to happen at an early age.

When my daughter was eleven I knew where she was and who she was with at all times, and I had passwords to her facebook and myspace accounts. I do feel that more could have been done to protect this particular child, but as someone has already said "if it wasn't her it would have been someone else"

What can be done to teach boys empathy? Is it something that has to be ingrained early or something that can be introduced later, possibly in a school program of some sort?

There was a similar case in my area. It wasn't a gang rape, but about ten boys all having sex with a twelve year old. Everyone piled on the girl like the poor boys were victims of raging hormones.
Are you quite sure that wasn't a gang rape?
  #280  
Old 03-14-2011, 09:12 PM
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Are you quite sure that wasn't a gang rape?
It was certainly rape given her age and the ages of the boys, but what I meant was that the incidences happened one at a time as opposed to all the boys on one occasion. I should also note that this girl also did not report it and did not realize she had been raped till the videos got out. We need some serious educating of both sexes.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:20 PM
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I haven't interpretted anything said here as blaming the victim. A lot of eleven year old girls are dressed provocatively nowadays. Victoria's Secret has that whole 'pink' line to cater to them. They are also increasingly sexually active in middle school. And I think it's very possible that this girl didn't report it because she had previously 'consented' with one of the boys. I think girls need educated on what rape is and it needs to happen at an early age.

There is no black and white dichotomy of "well, I'm not outright blaming the victim, so everything I say is fine." Everything said in this thread is not fine.

First of all, we have no clue exactly how the girl first encountered her attackers (who were not all "boys", the word you used). Yet the assumption has been that she "chose" to go with them, and "chose" to have sex. There are any number of ways an adult man could manipulate or force an 11 year old girl to do what he wanted; indeed, due to his overwhelming advantage in power, there is probably nothing she could do to stop him. All the while, he can tell her (falsely) that it was consensual, that he likes her, that nobody will believe her, that she will be blamed. She may even believe it.

To focus on the behavior of the victim reinforces the rapist's manipulations. To create a culture in which blame or guilt are shifted onto the victim, is to create a culture where it is easier for rapists to manipulate their victims.

Now, we also see that there were many witnesses in the area to the actions of the rapists. Yet they did nothing. Afterward, they talk about the victim's clothes instead of explaining why they did nothing; they are shifting guilt from themselves onto the victim. It is highly probable that one reason they did nothing is that words like "choice" and "relationship" were floating in their brains when they watched an 11 year old girl get raped by adult men. That isn't good; it suggests that we need to make an effort to avoid using such words or thinking such thoughts about rape victims.

Last edited by Carmady; 03-14-2011 at 09:23 PM.
  #282  
Old 03-14-2011, 09:38 PM
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It was certainly rape given her age and the ages of the boys, but what I meant was that the incidences happened one at a time as opposed to all the boys on one occasion. I should also note that this girl also did not report it and did not realize she had been raped till the videos got out. We need some serious educating of both sexes.
OK, I see what you're saying. Somehow, I thought from your post that it was all at once.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:15 AM
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If you were 1% as persuasive as the author of that (excellent) blog, no one would give you any grief on this board. And that's all I've got to say outside the pit.
  #284  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
There is no black and white dichotomy of "well, I'm not outright blaming the victim, so everything I say is fine." Everything said in this thread is not fine.

First of all, we have no clue exactly how the girl first encountered her attackers (who were not all "boys", the word you used). Yet the assumption has been that she "chose" to go with them, and "chose" to have sex. There are any number of ways an adult man could manipulate or force an 11 year old girl to do what he wanted; indeed, due to his overwhelming advantage in power, there is probably nothing she could do to stop him. All the while, he can tell her (falsely) that it was consensual, that he likes her, that nobody will believe her, that she will be blamed. She may even believe it.

To focus on the behavior of the victim reinforces the rapist's manipulations. To create a culture in which blame or guilt are shifted onto the victim, is to create a culture where it is easier for rapists to manipulate their victims.

Now, we also see that there were many witnesses in the area to the actions of the rapists. Yet they did nothing. Afterward, they talk about the victim's clothes instead of explaining why they did nothing; they are shifting guilt from themselves onto the victim. It is highly probable that one reason they did nothing is that words like "choice" and "relationship" were floating in their brains when they watched an 11 year old girl get raped by adult men. That isn't good; it suggests that we need to make an effort to avoid using such words or thinking such thoughts about rape victims.
I'm getting heartily sick to fucking death of saying this, but NOBODY is focussing on the behaviour of the victim herself. No eleven year old child is in any way responsible or to be be blamed for the terrible acts that were perpetrated upon her.

What I (and some others are saying) is that the hell she experienced is a) due to a mob of blokes who we hope are going to jail for the term of their natural lives, and b) a family and community who didn't really care all that much for the little girl to worry about who her social aquaintances were and what she was doing with them.

It's always a two-way street. Sure, we need to lock rapists up to prevent them hurting others, (particularly) women. But we also need to teach our children that not every person in the world is trustworthy and looking out for their best interests. In fact, some people really want to harm them. THIS is the message we need to get across, and that it's safe to tell a family grown-up what has happened so that we, as the responsible adults in their lives, can make sure that nothing bad happens to them.

The poor little tyke in this thread had no such options. She was eleven years old, a sexual plaything for an older boy/man who later decided to share her out with his mates like a plate of pie, and nobody in her family or community noticed what the fuck was going on?

Bullshit, utter fucking bullshit.

  #285  
Old 03-15-2011, 08:48 AM
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I'm getting heartily sick to fucking death of saying this, but NOBODY is focussing on the behaviour of the victim herself.

It is inarguable that many have focused on and scrutinized the behavior of the victim.

I'm not saying anyone blamed the victim, but the focus is clear:


Quote:
Originally Posted by kambuckta View Post
It is not condoning the actions of the men and boys who violated the little girl to understand that she may have been at the time a willing participant in the activity. ...

This was not a child snatched from a bedroom and taken away to be gang-raped by strangers: this was a child who engaged with her abusers voluntarily, and suffered the worst possible consequences.
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Originally Posted by Heckity View Post
I agree. It seems from some of the stories that the young victim had an ongoing sexual relationship with at least one of the men charged. I'm inclined to suppose that the girl discovered at her early age through various messages (parenting, siblings, media, music, etc.) that her female wiles might get her attention and perhaps even popularity.
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Blame her? No. Understand how this happened? When your daughter is the neighborhood gang ho don't be surprised when something really bad happens. What, are we saying 11-year-olds have a right to be the neighborhood gang ho and yet always be treated like proper little ladies? How's that work?
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You have to differentiate blame from responsibility

For instance, if I walk around Humboldt Park (not a nice area) in Chicago with a bunch of money in my fist and I get mugged, is this my fault?
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Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
In the event she's raped, for any reason, she needs to be taught to tell somebody. She, personally, did nothing wrong except be ignorant. And doing something wrong is completely, totally different from being at fault, the people who are at fault are the people who did this, the people who didn't report this, and the people who didn't cure her of her ignorance. She is a victim, but her incorrect action in this scenario is a result of further victimization, not some misguided attempt to blame her for her problems.

We don't know how the girl first encountered her attackers. Yet the assumption is that she engaged with them voluntarily, that she was trying to use her "female wiles" to get popular, that she was the neighborhood gang ho, and that her actions were like walking around a bad area displaying a bunch of money.

In reality, an adult man has many ways to manipulate or force an 11 year old girl into doing what he wants. Any 11 year old girl, from any family. Psychological manipulation, threats (implied or overt), violence. Meanwhile, he can tell his victim that they are in a "relationship", that she caused it, that everyone would blame her.

The focus on the girl's behavior seems to confirm the rapist's manipulation. The victim does feel she is being blamed, does have assumptions made about her, does have her behavior scrutinized, is in fact assumed to have been willing. This empowers rapists everywhere.
  #286  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:40 AM
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It is inarguable that many have focused on and scrutinized the behavior of the victim.
And yet, most of that scrutiny has been of the form of "where were her parents and community", not of her actions as self-motivated. Analysis/scrutiny is not blame, and I get an undercurrent of what bengangmo was saying more than anything--I can't teach 150 million men, so what (if anything) can I teach my daughter?
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:43 AM
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Look, nibtv, but you want to keep this up, then here is what I propose: Let's say only two of the people involved here were adults. That's it.

What we have here is two rapists, and 19 victims. Stop calling them rapists! Children cannot be rapists. They can only be victims! Stop blaming them!

Does that sound kinda silly to anyone?
  #288  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:18 AM
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The problem with answering "focus on the rapist" is that the question was "How do you prevent rapes?". If we can prevent rapes, then there won't be any rapists to focus on.
That is... exactly backwards. If a person chooses not to become a rapist, there is nothing to prevent. Rape is not a fucking insentient, natural disaster whose ill effects can be warded off by the right combination of warning sirens and earthworks. Rapes occur because people choose to rape. One prevents rape by causing them not to make that choice.

Last edited by matt_mcl; 03-16-2011 at 12:19 AM.
  #289  
Old 03-16-2011, 01:11 AM
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Most people, in very standard situations (a bit of mob mentality, for example) are at risk of making the bad choice. Even for normal people, evil may be a step away. We've seen this time after time. Remember in Rwanda how ordinary people, egged on by something as slight as radio broadcasts, quickly turned to their neighbors and systematically slaughtered them.
Uh, well those machete-slingers were men. Not women.
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Old 03-16-2011, 02:55 AM
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Uh, well those machete-slingers were men. Not women.
The very first result in Google Scholar for "Rwanda genocide gender" is this article (Warning! PDF!). It's a little flakey in analysis and undersourced(ish), but good enough for the Dope. It notes:

Quote:
As noted in the introduction to this article, the Rwandan genocide is unpre- cedented in the annals of genocide for the prominent role that women played as organizers, instigators, and followers. The major source on this phenomenon is the African Rights report, Rwanda—Not So Innocent: When Women Become Killers, published in August, 1995. The organization—bravely, it must be said—countered the standard trend of portraying women as inherently or automatically the “main” victims of the genocide. This stereotype, it claimed, had contributed to “obscuring the role of women as aggressors.”94

It is clear that many women were coerced into participating in the genocide by the “wide array of policies [developed by the extremists] with which to cajole and frighten the population into a killing frenzy.” But as the African Rights investigators noted, “when it came to mass murder, there were a lot of women who needed no encouragement.”95 Indeed, one can speculate that a greater proportion of women than men participated voluntarily in the killings, since it was men, almost exclusively, who were forcibly conscripted into the “work” of the roadblock killings, and who were exposed to suspicion or violent retribution if they did not take part. Evading direct participation was probably much easier for Hutu women (and children) than for Hutu men.
IOW, your comment is untrue and, in context, extraordinarily offensive. Unless I'm getting whooshed. But I don't think I am.
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  #291  
Old 03-16-2011, 06:26 PM
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And yet, most of that scrutiny has been of the form of "where were her parents and community", not of her actions as self-motivated. Analysis/scrutiny is not blame, and I get an undercurrent of what bengangmo was saying more than anything--I can't teach 150 million men, so what (if anything) can I teach my daughter?
Well you're going to have to teach it to 150 million girls, too, unless it's only your kid you don't want getting raped.
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:20 PM
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Well you're going to have to teach it to 150 million girls, too, unless it's only your kid you don't want getting raped.
I'd be lying if I said that wasn't my first concern--and my priorities (in terms of whose motivations I was going to focus on analyzing) would be different if I was trying to make sure a little boy didn't grow up to be a rapist.
  #293  
Old 03-16-2011, 11:06 PM
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Well you're going to have to teach it to 150 million girls, too, unless it's only your kid you don't want getting raped.
What's the point in posting this?


Do I have any more capability of teaching 150 girls than I do to teach 150 million boys?

What do I, as a parent, have the most influence over? Isn't to teach my girl to keep herself safe, or to teach my son to treat ladies with respect?

Both are within my capability, are my responsibility and what any decent parent will do.

What I can also do is look at those in my immediate environment and try to influence them - just like the how I got on my nephew's case about racist attitudes, like how if you know an 11 year old is "associating" (I really don't know what word to use here that won't bring wrath down upon me) with 19 year olds you might want to take a closer look at the situation.

IF people are talking about your 11 year old in the same manner of how the town's folk are talking about this 11 year old should you have a talk to her. (note here: I don't know if what was said is an accurate representation or the town trying to demonise the kid excuse the rapist - if its the latter then fuck them with a rusty pitchfork).

In my world an 11 year old dressed in "come fuck me clothes" is not an invitation to rape, is not a justification for others to sexualise her, doesn't excuse bad behaviour or comments and does not mean she asked for it.

What it is though, is a damn fucking great big neon sign that something is wrong. That somebody is teaching her that a woman's worth is only connected to her sexuality, or that somebody is exposing her to sexually inappropriate motivations and content for her age. It's a sign that somebody is NOT looking out for her.

It's also sad that what started as comments that perhaps this girl had a less than appropriate upbringing has turned the entire focus of this thread onto the victim, where it should have been on the perpetrators and the community that "enabled" this to happen. It would have been much more productive to have spent this entire discussion on what and why the rapists were wrong instead of trying to get the point across that those around her have done this girl a disservice.
  #294  
Old 03-17-2011, 08:07 AM
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And then it got worse.
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:45 AM
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That's just scary crazy.

I do have a question though. Is there any indication that this group of monsters groomed and conditioned her because they were pedophiles or because they saw here as an easy way to get their jollies?

Is there a difference? If you have sex with a child this age are you, by definition, a pedophile?

I guess what I am trying to say - the acts by themselves alone are nasty and grotesque enough. The perpetrators deserve and will be punished severly (although not serverly enough). I am wondering if the inclusion of the "pedophile grooming" part is an accurate reflection, or if it is more accurate to say that these pustules took advantage of her because they could? Were they targeting her because she was an easy mark or because she was young?

To me there is a difference and it does matter - it doesn't help anyone to bandy about accusations and claims that are inaccurate. It obfuscates the matter.
  #296  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:31 AM
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I think that at least some of the perps were pedophiles. The guy who was her "boyfriend" was definitely a pedo. Come on, men, can you honestly say that you're sexually aroused by an 11 year old? I don't care how much makeup she has on, or how she's dressed, she's still an infant. Some of the perps might have sex with adult women as well as children, and are willing to have sex with a piece of liver, if it's available...but I'd think that most of the perps like having sex with kids.
  #297  
Old 03-17-2011, 12:52 PM
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That's just scary crazy.

I do have a question though. Is there any indication that this group of monsters groomed and conditioned her because they were pedophiles or because they saw here as an easy way to get their jollies?

Is there a difference? If you have sex with a child this age are you, by definition, a pedophile?

I guess what I am trying to say - the acts by themselves alone are nasty and grotesque enough. The perpetrators deserve and will be punished severly (although not serverly enough). I am wondering if the inclusion of the "pedophile grooming" part is an accurate reflection, or if it is more accurate to say that these pustules took advantage of her because they could? Were they targeting her because she was an easy mark or because she was young?

To me there is a difference and it does matter - it doesn't help anyone to bandy about accusations and claims that are inaccurate. It obfuscates the matter.
If this victim has gone through puberty and any of the men involved aren't typically attracted to pre-pubescent children, then no, they are not technically 'pedophiles' which by definition is sexual attraction/orientation fixated on pre-pubescent children. Men who are sexually fixated on children just at/past the age of puberty are hebophiles; men who are sexually fixated on teenagers (minors a few years past the age of puberty) are ephebophiles. Any offense against a child/minor, no matter their level of physical sexual maturity, falls under the umbrella of child sexual abuse and rape, but is not necessarily 'pedophilia'.

There's been plenty of research on the men who sexually abuse/assault children, and of course they are not monolithic. From wiki:

Quote:
  • Situational - does not prefer children, but offend under certain conditions.
    • Regressed - Typically has relationships with adults, but a stressor causes them to seek children as a substitute.
    • Morally Indiscriminate - All-around sexual deviant, who may commit other sexual offenses unrelated to children.
    • Naive/Inadequate - Often mentally disabled in some way, finds children less threatening.
  • Preferential - has true sexual interest in children.
    • Mysoped - Sadistic and violent, target strangers more often than acquaintances.
    • Fixated - Little or no activity with own age, described as an "overgrown child." Holmes and Holmes, 2002
I assume with so many offenders in this case, there are some of every type.

Last edited by rhubarbarin; 03-17-2011 at 12:53 PM.
  #298  
Old 03-17-2011, 01:14 PM
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I strongly disagree with miss elizabeth's take. I want my journalists to tell as complete a story as they can, not to choose selectively which facts best fit a "correct" perspective and which don't. For example, knowing the races of individuals in the story might add insight, but I don't think reporters are allowed to reveal that.
I bet you really don't want that. Every reporter on every story has the ability to come away with vastly more bits of information than can fit in the news item. There is always a selection of which facts to report and which to leave out. The inclusion of any particular fact in the story is always a statement by the journalist that it is relevant.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:11 PM
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I bet you really don't want that. Every reporter on every story has the ability to come away with vastly more bits of information than can fit in the news item. There is always a selection of which facts to report and which to leave out. The inclusion of any particular fact in the story is always a statement by the journalist that it is relevant.
Selecting facts that are relevant, yes. Selecting facts to fit the desired perspective, no. And that's what miss elizabeth was talking about (at least I think so); possibly leaving out what would be otherwise relevant information because it doesn't present the right attitude or because somebody would object to it or take it wrong. That's something that reporters should be very watchful about, and news agencies even more so.

Last edited by thirdwarning; 03-17-2011 at 02:12 PM. Reason: board conventions
  #300  
Old 03-17-2011, 02:30 PM
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That is... exactly backwards. If a person chooses not to become a rapist, there is nothing to prevent. Rape is not a fucking insentient, natural disaster whose ill effects can be warded off by the right combination of warning sirens and earthworks. Rapes occur because people choose to rape. One prevents rape by causing them not to make that choice.
No need to try and prevent smoking, drug use, excessive alcohol consumption, or STD's by that line of reasoning, since people choose to do those things. There is nothing to prevent.
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