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Old 03-17-2011, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
What this kind of victim blaming assumes, always, is that the victim did something wrong, and that by studying it we can prevent the rape of the next victim. People are exerting a lot of effort here in avoiding any and all discussion of the rapist, such as lamenting the lack of two-parent families, which obviously would have totally protected the victim. Girls from two parent families never get raped, just as men from two parent families do not become rapists, at least when Shodan and Starving Artist put their heads together.
But there is NO WAY to prevent rape entirely and forever, working towards that is an utterly fruitless goal. That's not what people are getting at. It's more of an analysis of statistics. If a girl is taught <this way> or raised in <this environment> she is statistically less likely to be raped. Nothing about impossibility, or prevention, just mitigation. Should we teach boys to not be rapists? Yes. Will they listen always? No, everything from mental illnesses to retarded group mentalities can throw a wrench in the works. Likewise, any prevention method, be it towards the girl, society, the legal system, or anything else will not be perfectly executed. It's the unfortunate nature of the beast. All we can do is teach both our boys and girls (since both are capable of rape and being raped) the rules of what NOT to do and what TO do and hope it averages out to something somewhere north of reasonable.

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The 'advice' and analysis on this thread is all about what the victim did wrong: according to the experts here, the victim didn't say no, didn't report promptly, and didn't know any better. Several people have said, incorrectly, that the victim was having a 'sexual relationship' with a nineteen-year-old man. No. She was raped, repeatedly.
I still don't see the problem. "An eleven year old had a sexual relationship with[...]" is an ENTAILMENT of sexual abuse, there is no difference between saying "was raped by." Trying to act offended when somebody says it does a disservice to the phrase, it implies that yeah, in THIS case it was rape, but by saying "you must say rape" it implies that in some cases a sexual relationship involving an eleven year old is NOT rape. If there is no case in which an eleven year old can have a non-rape sexual relationship, then it is encoded in the text of the statement. It's, at best, disingenuous to act like something else is implied by using the words sexual relationship.

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Which is why talking about the victim is stupid because here's what your advice winds up to:

Victim: No.

Rapist: No?! Okay, I'll go away now and rape some other woman who doesn't know the magic world.

All this advice is stupid because it's already been trotted out and it's useless if it's not realistically possible, plus it's old. Heard it all before, don't care to hear it again, thanks for wasting my time. Recognotion of that needs to be the first step. You're not original and you're not helping as long as you devote time to searching out what's wrong with the victim.
The world would not be a better place if we stopped teaching it. We should teach it. Okay, sure, it's nothing new, maybe we should stop proposing it as a solution because it's already ingrained in society, but it's certainly not liable to make things worse or keep them the same as if there were no guidelines. And you're vastly oversimplifying this situation, even beyond simple problem relaxation techniques. It's more of a flowchart, there's a chance that if a girl tells the authorities and her parents things will stop. There even exist situations (with grown women) where a guy may be unintentionally getting out of hand and a firm no may suffice. All of these methods can and will fail depending on any myriad of variables, and it's madness to follow every single little one of them, but the situations (even if they're few in number) where they do have an effect warrant teaching them.

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I've said it before, numerous times: focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist, focus on the rapist. How did HE grow up? Where were HIS parents? Oh, he's already a rapist, it's hopeless to do anything, let's just focus on the victim.
Yes, we were focusing on the victim too much in this thread, I apologize. But I don't think the rapist is the only one to look at here. Everybody involved, even indirectly should be examined more or less equally. This includes the rapists, the raped, and the bystanders. Yes, we can make a positive difference by drilling things into young men and women who otherwise may rape someone with a different upbringing or personality. It's not enough though, there DO exist people with mental illnesses, and no manner of conditioning them will help, and you can't put them away until they actually do something. You just have to watch the ticking time bombs. That's why we need to look at the person who was raped too, in cases when either the society didn't correctly condition the now-rapists, and for the non-rapists who were stupid enough to not watch, or care about, the ticking time bombs. It's a flawed fail-safe, not a matter of fault.

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Ending rape is not quick or easy. If you have a friend who makes sexist jokes---against men or women---stop them. Pay attention. There's been several cases in the news of quick-thinking waittresses and waiters who stopped rapes from happening because they observed men putting stuff in their date's drinks and called the cops and confiscated the drink.
Ending rape is not POSSIBLE. Also, I take issue to the whole "telling sexist[/racist/classist] jokes is wrong" thing. Jokes are often funny because they break the norm, telling a joke about someone who was raped that wanted it implicitly reinforces that the normal state of affairs that rape is a horrible crime, and it's funny because that expectation has been subverted. Now, the jokes can certainly be stupid, ill-timed, told in inappropriate places, and yes, there exist some that truly glorify rape. I'm all for ending those jokes, but when a joke makes light of a subject it rarely means it endorses it, and in fact often raises awareness and speaks out against it. Consider this, you can't watch this and tell me, with a straight face, that it endorses the stereotypical "sorority girl" lifestyle that they're portraying. It's the same for rape jokes.

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Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
We don't know how the girl first encountered her attackers. Yet the assumption is that she engaged with them voluntarily, that she was trying to use her "female wiles" to get popular, that she was the neighborhood gang ho, and that her actions were like walking around a bad area displaying a bunch of money.

In reality, an adult man has many ways to manipulate or force an 11 year old girl into doing what he wants. Any 11 year old girl, from any family. Psychological manipulation, threats (implied or overt), violence. Meanwhile, he can tell his victim that they are in a "relationship", that she caused it, that everyone would blame her.

The focus on the girl's behavior seems to confirm the rapist's manipulation. The victim does feel she is being blamed, does have assumptions made about her, does have her behavior scrutinized, is in fact assumed to have been willing. This empowers rapists everywhere.
I, for one, never assumed* she was willing. I understand that she was threatened and abducted. But the fact that little girls can be manipulated doesn't speak to me that we need to not talk about the victim anymore. To the contrary, it says to me that we should focus on shouldering the responsibility of teaching little boys and girls not to rape, things you can do to avoid rape, things to do if your friend has been raped, and things to do after you are raped to EVERYBODY, not just the parents. I'm not saying make it so every stranger on the street has to approach small children and give them the talk, just that in addition to telling parents to teach their children, start some social pressure to make schools, daycares, and babysitters teach children this too. It creates more redundancy in the system, so that if the parents are molesting the child, they still get the information from school. The trick here is to make it conditioned, despite my "rational choice" spiel beforehand, I actually find that I like "clear and simple rules' more. Make it so that all sorts of people from different places are instructing the kid that if anyone, be it aunt, uncle, friend, celebrity, teacher, parent, or high schooler does something sexual to a you or your friends, to report it to somebody not directly involved with that person. This also has the added benefit that if this teaching is coming from so many angles, it lessens the probability that they won't be believed, since there's immense societal pressure to report this stuff there will also be pressure to listen and investigate it. Now, yes, this will STILL backfire, probably often, but I think the manipulation shows that the responsibility should be spread around more generally, not focused on any specific group. In this case shotgun seems better than focus fire.

* In case somebody produces a quote of me saying something to the contrary, I was a little fuzzy when I first entered the discussion, but I understood it after a couple posts.
  #302  
Old 03-17-2011, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdwarning View Post
Selecting facts that are relevant, yes. Selecting facts to fit the desired perspective, no. And that's what miss elizabeth was talking about (at least I think so); possibly leaving out what would be otherwise relevant information because it doesn't present the right attitude or because somebody would object to it or take it wrong. That's something that reporters should be very watchful about, and news agencies even more so.
All reporters and all news agencies always have perspectives which inform their judgments about what is relevant. There is no other way to effectively tell a story. Serious journalists try to keep their perspectives accurate and fair, but they still have perspectives.

Last edited by Peremensoe; 03-17-2011 at 09:56 PM.
  #303  
Old 03-17-2011, 10:17 PM
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miss elizabeth mentioned, as an example of an included irrelevancy, the news item's mention of the girl wearing makeup. septimus suggested that the "race" of the perpetrators might be an excluded matter of relevance.

Are they? Would you react differently to the story if the raped child had not been wearing makeup? Does your response change with the tone of the attackers' skin? Some people attach importance to these things. It's impossible to write a news report without omitting something that somebody could find significant. More subtly, some readers will attach importance to any given fact that the reporter sees fit to mention; we expect journalists to deliver relevant facts. In a highly-selective context, the very act of including a fact assigns it importance--it tells people that this is part of the story.

All journalists make these decisions, inclusion and exclusion, for every story they tell. There is no way around it.

Last edited by Peremensoe; 03-17-2011 at 10:22 PM.
  #304  
Old 03-18-2011, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Look, nibtv, but you want to keep this up, then here is what I propose: Let's say only two of the people involved here were adults. That's it.
Not here to comment on the content of your post. But I'm having trouble following the course of the conversation. You didn't quote the post you were responding to. What was this in response to? Also, what is 'nibtv'? My initial guesses were that it was either the name of a poster, or an internet acronym, but neither seems to be the case from what I've been able to tell. Enquiring me wants to know.
  #305  
Old 03-18-2011, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
miss elizabeth mentioned, as an example of an included irrelevancy, the news item's mention of the girl wearing makeup. septimus suggested that the "race" of the perpetrators might be an excluded matter of relevance.

Are they? Would you react differently to the story if the raped child had not been wearing makeup? Does your response change with the tone of the attackers' skin? Some people attach importance to these things. It's impossible to write a news report without omitting something that somebody could find significant. More subtly, some readers will attach importance to any given fact that the reporter sees fit to mention; we expect journalists to deliver relevant facts. In a highly-selective context, the very act of including a fact assigns it importance--it tells people that this is part of the story.

All journalists make these decisions, inclusion and exclusion, for every story they tell. There is no way around it.
To comment on the relevancy or not
1. In my world, 11 year olds don't wear make-up in the course of a "normal" day (they may for a special occasion such as a wedding of a relative though) - so if she were wearing it, and I was the reporter, I MAY include it. Also, whoever told that fact to the reporter thought it relevant - so perhaps there is a related comment that the reporter had to leave out?
2. Apparently - the TOWN sees the races as relevant (I don't, but there you go)...I seem to recall seeing something about there being an undercurrent that the girl was hispanic and the rapists largely african american - so there may have been some sort of racial politics at play here. So the upshot would be - the races are no relevant in and of themselves, but they become relevant if indeed there is racial politics at play in the town's response.

Which I guess is exactly what you're saying - relevancy is in the context
  #306  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:25 PM
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Child abuse


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Originally Posted by Tortuga View Post
I'd like to think that's odd in our country too... Of course, Texas wants to be a different country, maybe this is part of it.

Love this bit of classiness from the NYT story:


And the story indicates that the victim herself didn't report the incident, that it was an elementary school student who saw the video who reported it to a teacher, who reported it to the administration, who determined it didn't take place on school grounds and who reported it to police.
The men and boys that did this were in the wrong. I was molested and my mother was at home unless she worked or went out. She trusted the people we knew. However, the people were not all trustworthy. Anyone can be a molester. She was single. It is hard for single woman to raise children. They don't always have the income and some of the men they get with are worthless. Do you know how many fathers, step fathers etc abuse their children. I'm not saying woman don't abuse children sexually but I know many more men that sexually abuse children.
This poor child will be missed up the rest of her life. All I can do is hope that she will get lucky.
For the men that don't abuse hopefully you don't cheat on your girlfriends or spouses. Ive seen a lot of that also. Most men I know don't think with their brains. They let their sex organs talk.
Don't use the fact that the girl looked older. Even if the child talks to you about sex it is not an excuse to abuse her. Many molested children will talk about she because of the abuse. That is a stupid excuse men use to not look as guilty.
I'm am an older person. During my life time I have been molested twice by strangers, heard stories from some of my friends about them being molested, had a stepfather live a mother after 20 years of marriage for a co-worker. He also did things with my older friends while he was married, had married men make passes on me, had an adopted father molest my brother's and one of them become a child molester. The adopted father got married to another woman and had a son. Don't know what happened during this marriage. However, at the age of 70 he molested his grandson and was put in prison for four years. The adopted father also cheated during his marriage. What about these men? Why do they have to be this way?

I don't know the parents but it is not always the mothers fault. My mother worked hard, she was loyal to here men.
  #307  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by really View Post
The men and boys that did this were in the wrong...
You don't say....

Really?
  #308  
Old 03-26-2011, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
miss elizabeth mentioned, as an example of an included irrelevancy, the news item's mention of the girl wearing makeup. septimus suggested that the "race" of the perpetrators might be an excluded matter of relevance....

All journalists make these decisions, inclusion and exclusion, for every story they tell. There is no way around it.
True. The idea of "objective reporting" becomes almost an oxymoron. Deliberate effort to be "objective" may itself be a type of bias. Even stories without political or emotional content may reflect bias.

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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
2. Apparently - the TOWN sees the races as relevant (I don't, but there you go)...I seem to recall seeing something about there being an undercurrent that the girl was hispanic and the rapists largely african american - so there may have been some sort of racial politics at play here. So the upshot would be - the races are no relevant in and of themselves, but they become relevant if indeed there is racial politics at play in the town's response.

Which I guess is exactly what you're saying - relevancy is in the context
Was the racial disparity a coincidence, or were there indeed "racial politics at play" that would be relevant to policy-makers? I've not followed the story, but it would seem unfortunate if politically correct race-blindness hid that possibility.

Yes, I know my words will now be misconstrued to call me a racist and/or condoner of rape.
  #309  
Old 03-26-2011, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension View Post
On one of the previous contentious rape thread somebody, might have been Clocky, suggested as a joke that we have a rape forum, since we have so many threads about it. It'd be cuddly, like MPSIMS.
Yes, that was me. Though I think in hindsight it'd be better if it had Pit rules.
  #310  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:33 PM
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Some updates.

From 2012, Defendant in Cleveland gang rape case gets life sentence:

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Convicted of aggravated sexual assault of a child in concert with others, the 20-year-old will not be eligible for parole.
...
Shortly after being released on bail in the gang rape case, he robbed a convenience store and later shot a girl in the arm during a home invasion.
...
Cruse is only the second of 20 males who have been charged in the girl's rape to be tried in Liberty County. The first, Eric McGowen, received a 99-year sentence. Of those remaining, seven juveniles received probated sentences; six adults received 15-year sentences in exchange for guilty pleas and agreeing to testify against their peers; and five are awaiting trial.
And from 2013, Girl, 14, now pregnant was victim at age 11 of repeated gang rape by 20 men and boys

Quote:
The Texas girl who was the horrific victim of gang rapes at age 11 is now 14 and seven months pregnant.
...
The girl and her 15-year-old boyfriend say they intend to raise the child
...
The girl had been placed in foster care after police began investigating the the attacks in 2010, [but] ran away from her group foster home in 2011 and lived on the streets for eight months.
  #311  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:01 PM
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Since it's been bumped, for anyone finding this from ~the future~, please take this post from another thread referencing this one:

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Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
Don't use my posts in [this] thread they were wrong. For one I was a shitty person 8 years ago and being on this board since I was 16 and impressionable world-view-wise was a big part of it, I wasn't slapped down hard enough for making bullshit "emotionally detached" arguments about shit like rape and pedophilia. My change happened I think that same year, but it was getting temp-banned from another board for doing the "pedophilia and ephebophilia aren't the same thing and people shouldn't feel bad for being pedophiles/ephebophiles anyway as long as they don't act on it," something which is, at best, not something you should say because it culturally defends pedos, and is an argument I came across repeatedly on this damn board.

I had also been repeatedly coerced into sex by my partner the last couple years before that and was trying to make sense of why I kept letting it happen and took it out on that news story by trying to rationalize what had gone wrong in her (my) life that she (I) didn't do "the right thing" after.
Also, I'm a woman and my pronouns are she/her.

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Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
At the risk of reviving this hellthread, I don't see what the fucking purpose is of reporting she was pregnant as a teen from (presumably) consensual sex with a boyfriend around the same age as her. I can contort myself into a generous interpretation, but really my first strongest instinct is it seems like a subtle victim-blamey insinuation of "see!? And now she got knocked up by sleeping around at 14! She's a slut after all!" At best the insinuation is "these poor rape victims end up sexually promiscuous" with the implication that her having consensual sex is a character flaw brought about by her assault.

Last edited by Jragon; 12-03-2019 at 07:02 PM.
  #312  
Old 12-03-2019, 08:27 PM
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nm

Last edited by GreysonCarlisle; 12-03-2019 at 08:28 PM.
  #313  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:14 PM
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Some updates.
You bumped an eight year old thread with "updates" from seven years ago? What was the point?
  #314  
Old 12-04-2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by flurb View Post
You bumped an eight year old thread with "updates" from seven years ago? What was the point?
They're actual updates. No need for the quotes.

This thread is relevant again because of a whole series of newly minted related threads on misogyny, victim blaming, and rape that linked to and discussed it. I was interested in learning what happened to the people involved, and I guessed that some others might be, as well. If you're not one of them, that's fine, but what's the point of saying so?
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