Straight Dope Message Board

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by Werekoala

legally carring his rifle on his shoulder - and being a complete moron in the process.

being an idiot isn't illegal either.

"complete moron" and "idiot" are not terms I'd like to use to describe a person open carrying a firearm in public. Frankly, being afraid of such a person is far more appropriate a response than being blase about him. 51

[Der Trihs]

One funny thing about this argument from gun fetishists that people shouldn't fear to see someone walking around with a gun in public; it undermines their entire fantasy of noble gun-toting Second Amendment fans whipping out their guns to stop criminals and spree shooters, since if they follow their own their advice they'll be caught by surprise every time. 52

[madmonk28]

Here's my entry for today:

15-year-old Matthew Daniels, of Sweetwater, Tennessee unintentionally shot himself with a family handgun. According to police, "Apparently based on everything we can find out, we have no sign that he was depressed or anything of that nature, so it looks like an accidental shooting."
Police responded to the call around 5:45 Thursday night. They found Matthew's mother performing CPR on her son. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
Reports do not indicate how the family handgun was stored, whether it was kept unloaded and locked, or why Matthew was handling the gun.
Matthew was a freshman at Sweetwater High School. He was an honor student and had just been named Student of the Month. Students, faculty and staff at the high school wore purple on Monday in honor of Matthew. Purple was Matthew's favorite color.

http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/2013/01...hoots-and.html

and on the subject of carrying a gun to make a point:
“There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,” said California Gov. Ronald Reagan in May 1967, after two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill. Reagan said guns were “a ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.”http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/7_un...e_nras_become/ 53

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Here's my entry for today:
http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/2013/01...hoots-and.html

Yes; having guns around is a great way of getting yourself killed by accident.

Originally Posted by madmonk28

“There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,” said California Gov. Ronald Reagan in May 1967, after two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill. Reagan said guns were “a ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.”

Ah, Reagan you crazy leftist, you. 54

[Flyer]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

One funny thing about this argument from gun fetishists that people shouldn't fear to see someone walking around with a gun in public; it undermines their entire fantasy of noble gun-toting Second Amendment fans whipping out their guns to stop criminals and spree shooters, since if they follow their own their advice they'll be caught by surprise every time.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Criminals (illegally) CONCEAL their (illegal) guns. Why in the world would anybody bent on robbery or mayhem alert their target ahead of time? Any criminal who openly carried his weapon would be almost as stupid as you are.


Anyhow, that's probably why this guy carried his rifle into the store to begin with--to show people that somebody carried an evil "assault rifle" into a public place, and nothing bad happened. Perhaps all those idiots who were stupid enough to call the police for no reason at all will realize that this is what is called a "teachable moment." 55

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Criminals (illegally) CONCEAL their (illegal) guns. Why in the world would anybody bent on robbery or mayhem alert their target ahead of time? Any criminal who openly carried his weapon would be almost as stupid as you are.

Adam Lanza didn't conceal the guns he used in Newton, CT.

James Holmes didn't conceal the guns he used in Aurora, CO.

In fact, most mass shootings take place using guns legally obtained (cite) and AFAICT they are seldom concealed, unless you count "in the car until the killing starts" as "concealed".

You know why people "bent on robbery or mayhem" can openly carry weapons? Because they know that with the gun in their hand, they can pull the trigger before the people who have guns in holsters or stashed in their desks or whatever. And they know that many (if not most) people will run away rather than confront them, since they do in fact have a deadly weapon in their hands, ready to use.

Are you saying that if you saw a guy you didn't know with an AR-15 in public, you'd just assume something other than "hey maybe this guy aims to hurt a bunch of people"? Why in the world wouldn't you think that he might intend to hurt people? 56

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Criminals (illegally) CONCEAL their (illegal) guns. Why in the world would anybody bent on robbery or mayhem alert their target ahead of time? Any criminal who openly carried his weapon would be almost as stupid as you are.

Think it through, Flyer. Criminals by and large conceal their guns now, because ordinary people tend to freak out when they see some stranger walking around tooled up to the nines, thinking (rightly or wrongly - but it's a pretty safe fucking assumption) that that person is bent on something nefarious.

If morons like the guy from the OP were more common however, if people just got used and inured to the sight of people going about their business, assault rifles at the ready at all times because GUN RIGHTS... why on Earth would criminals and mass murderers still even attempt to conceal theirs ? They'd just blend right in. Assault rifles at the ready.
Feel safer yet ? 57

[madmonk28]

I've got another entry:
Phillip Sailors is the kind of good guy with a gun Wayne LaPierre had in in mind. When Rodrigo Diaz pulled into Mr. Sailors' driveway, thinking it was a friend's house, Mr. Sailors' did what any of us would do: he shot Mr. Diaz in the head as Mr. Diaz was trying to apologize.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg

This is easy. I feel bad for the gun fetishists, all they have for stupid gun story of the day is: "it's a magazine, not a clip," or "some reporter got the caliber wrong on my favorite penis substitute."

We have the steady drum beat of scared little weirdos with their guns doing scared little weird things with them. 58

[Gyrate]

I blame the media. If only they hadn't reported Mr Diaz's shooting, Mr Diaz's shooting wouldn't have happened.

Or something. 59

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Kroger Plus Rewards reads the card of a man.
A knight without armor in the breakfast foods aisle.

His fast gun for naught heads the calling of 911.
A soldier of fortune is the man called Jerry from Accounting.

Jerry from Accounting
Where do you roam?
With 17 items
Far, far from Express Checkout.
60

[scabpicker]

Originally Posted by silenus

Wait, wait, wait.

I'm so confused. If a potato gun shoots potatoes, then what does an elephant gun shoot?

I've got a rattlesnake gun I've got a rattlesnake gun I've got a rattlesnake gun!

Think about what an Aerosmith gun would shoot 61

[Hentor the Barbarian]

David Waldman is keeping a running account of gun incidents at his Gun Fail blog at Daily Kos.

It's quite remarkable to see so many of these incidents collected in one place. I wonder if he'll have the fortitude to keep it up for long.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/...f-GunFail-News 62

[madmonk28]

Hentor, in addition to Walman's blog, there is Ohh Shoot, which tracks gun mishaps and Slate's attempt to track every gun death in America since Newtown.

http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._shooting.html 63

[Condescending Robot]

Remember, anytime someone is shot it means that the idea of private gun ownership is discredited forever and the legal protections for it can be ignored. Just like everytime someone is acquitted in court it means that due process rights don't exist, everytime a Muslim does something violent it means freedom of religion is stupid, and everytime someone commits welfare fraud it means we should abolish food stamps and let people starve. 64

[elucidator]

Do I detect a note of sarcasm? 65

[Really Not All That Bright]

Hey, it's your well. If you want to poison it, be my guest. 66

[Condescending Robot]

If you don't believe that, what possible reason do you have for listing every incident of violence involving a gun? Make your argument. 67

[Really Not All That Bright]

It's possible that people might decide on their own not to carry guns because they're dangerous, you know. Or maybe those people just like making lists. I am fairly certain that America's Dumbest Criminals or whatever that Fox special is called is not intended to influence law enforcement policy, for example. People also make lists of car accidents without demanding the banning of private ownership of cars. 68

[Condescending Robot]

So, just a coincidence, being done for no reason then. OK. 69

[Really Not All That Bright]

Could you maybe put all your straw men into one post? 70

[madmonk28]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

If you don't believe that, what possible reason do you have for listing every incident of violence involving a gun? Make your argument.

My argument would be that a) dumb asses shooting themselves with guns they bought for "protection" is funny as shit and b) in order to discuss an issue, we must understand it. The fact that the NRA actively blocks attempts to better understand gun violence is a strong indicator that if America had more data, it might well draft gun legislation that is not in the gun industry's interest.

And it really helps if you read Ohh Shoot with Yakety Sax playing in your head. 71

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

If you don't believe that, what possible reason do you have for listing every incident of violence involving a gun? Make your argument.

Fewer people smoke today, due in large part to the campaign against smoking over the last 40 years. Yet tobacco is still legal. We seek to do the same for guns. We will convince your children, or their children, that gun ownership has a net negative effect on the nation, and is not necessary to pursue life, liberty and happiness. Maybe not tomorrow, or next year, but the arc of history will bend away from personal gun ownership. And it will be done without banning all firearms, or seizing anyone's guns. 72

[Hentor the Barbarian]

It's helpful to know that approximately 100,000 people in the US will be shot each year. It's helpful to know that approximately 30,000 people will die from gunshot wounds each year. It's helpful to consider the varying features of individual firearm incidents and to watch them accrue over time.

It may be akin to the fact that one may factually know the forces that create the tides and have a sense of the volumes involved, but may find that it's still informative nevertheless to stand on the beach.

It's even more informative to be buffeted by rip tides, albeit often with dire consequences. 73

[elucidator]

When I was but a wee lad, our local newspaper in Waco, TX had a custom of putting certain news in a predictable place. For instance, on the comics page, on the lower right hand side, was where you read about people getting shot. The format was standardized: "There was an altercation at the Dew Drop Inn last night. Jimmy Joe DeWitt was hospitalized at Methodist Hospital as a result of a gun shot injury. Police are investigating...." And so forth. It was normal, saw it all the time.

It wasn't until I left Texas that I noticed that other places didn't have that custom, that they seemed to regard a gunshot injury as something pretty unusual. It was news. It was exceptional.

So, perhaps there is a value to letting people know just how common Stupid Gun Tricks are in America. Maybe. 74

[Really Not All That Bright]

Were the comics also about people getting shot? It was Texas. 75

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Were the comics also about people getting shot? It was Texas.

The Phantom carried not one, but two semi-automatic pistols. 76

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Criminals (illegally) CONCEAL their (illegal) guns. Why in the world would anybody bent on robbery or mayhem alert their target ahead of time? Any criminal who openly carried his weapon would be almost as stupid as you are.

As said, nonsense. If carrying guns openly becomes normal, then criminals will carry them openly to blend in.

Originally Posted by Flyer

Anyhow, that's probably why this guy carried his rifle into the store to begin with--to show people that somebody carried an evil "assault rifle" into a public place, and nothing bad happened. Perhaps all those idiots who were stupid enough to call the police for no reason at all will realize that this is what is called a "teachable moment."

The lesson being that gun owners tend to be amoral jerks and bullies. And the police weren't called for "no reason at all"; fear is a rational response to someone doing what he did. As I said, he's lucky there wasn't a fellow Second Amendment fan there who didn't decide to go all "heroic", pull out a concealed weapon and shoot him. Or that the cops weren't overzealous and shot him. He was endangering himself and others, and being a bullying jerk.

If things had gone a little differently he'd have gotten himself a Darwin Award. 77

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

Remember, anytime someone is shot it means that the idea of private gun ownership is discredited forever and the legal protections for it can be ignored .

No, no, I disagree. Anytime someone is shot, it means that there were clearly not enough guns in the equation. The answer to any gun shooting is that more people should be armed.

For example, 15-year-old Matthew Daniels, of Sweetwater, Tennessee? Who accidentally shot himself? If only someone had been nearby with a firearm, they could have shot that gun out of his hands before he hurt himself.

And Rodrigo Diaz? Who foolishly got himself shot in the head for asking directions? If only he'd been armed with something useful, he could still be alive. Clearly he should have established a defensive position, locked and loaded, and THEN asked for directions. He could probably have defended himself then.

It's obvious, right? 78

[madmonk28]

Or the 5 people who were shot at events on gun appreciation day, if only they had guns...

Well, that one is the exception that proves the rule.

http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/2013/01...gun-shows.html 79

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Or the 5 people who were shot at events on gun appreciation day, if only they had guns...

Well, that one is the exception that proves the rule.

http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/2013/01...gun-shows.html

No, I think what they really needed was more guns. You see, at these particular shows, they did not have enough guns for sale. This caused people to be nervous and therefore careless in their frantic haste to get a firearm before the self-proclaimed God-Emperor Obama takes all of them away.

If only there had been more guns there, these tragic accident would not have happened. 80

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by drew870mitchell

The rampant paranoia for one's own safety, either from other citizens or from a supposed tyrannical government, doesn't reflect well on us as a society.

I do believe murderphobia is irrational. One is far less likely to be murdered in the US than to die of heart disease. However, one is far more likely to be murdered in the US than in Canada. Also, the government has reserved the right to indefinite detention without trial of US citizens, which is pretty tyrannical. 81

[madmonk28]

What I love is how many fat asses I see talking about needing guns for home protection. If they want to live longer, go for a jog. 82

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

What I love is how many fat asses I see talking about needing guns for home protection. If they want to live longer, go for a jog.

Well, if they do that, they should take a gun, in case they see someone in a hoodie. 83

[ExTank]

For the other side of this stupid coin:

The Armed Citizen

YouTube Version 84

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by ExTank

For the other side of this stupid coin:

The Armed Citizen

YouTube Version

I love that in the handful of anecdotes from the Armer Citizen, on the very first page, they have anecdotes from 1985 and from 1979! I know this isn't a systematic catalog, but sheesh, it's really hard to see how you're going to get to more than a couple hundred within a year.

But you know what? I'm thrilled, assuming these stories are accurate, for their outcomes. 85

[dropzone]

Leftish Radio Guy Norman Goldman has been trying to make the point that some gun regulation will help to preserve the 2nd Amendment while jerks like in the OP only hasten its end by making Normals freak out. He has a point. 86

[Double Foolscap]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

I do believe murderphobia is irrational. One is far less likely to be murdered in the US than to die of heart disease. However, one is far more likely to be murdered in the US than in Canada. Also, the government has reserved the right to indefinite detention without trial of US citizens, which is pretty tyrannical.

And having a gun is going to help with the bit I bolded? I suppose if you consider a protracted siege and eventual death by SWAT team a win... 87

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

I do believe murderphobia is irrational. One is far less likely to be murdered in the US than to die of heart disease.

Which is relevant if you know a lot of gun control advocates who are pro-heart disease. 88

[Damuri Ajashi]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

What I love is how many fat asses I see talking about needing guns for home protection. If they want to live longer, go for a jog.

I don't know where you are but in Northern Virginia, the guys at the gun range are generally physically fit (or at least not terribly out of shape). But that might not be a representative sample of gun owners in the area.

I think gun ownership should come with a requirement to go to the gun range at least once a year. Kind of like a safety inspection to make sure you know how to use your guns and for a bit of education on gunlaws and the importance of gun safety.

It seems pretty obvious at this point that an AWB is dead and even a cap on magazine capacity is not getting very much traction. BUT it does look like we might get universal background checks. I haven't heard anything about a national gun registry or national gun licensing standards but I hope someone brings it up. 89

[Hentor the Barbarian]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...II?showAll=yes

Here are 58 new incidents in this week's GunFail blog update. 90

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...II?showAll=yes

Here are 58 new incidents in this week's GunFail blog update.

Four of the 28 non-suicide/murder stories involve either dropping or leaving a gun in the bathroom/restroom. Guns and toilets apparently do not mix. 91

[ExTank]

ATF's Milwaukee Sting Operation Marred by Mistakes, Failures. 92

[madmonk28]

Here's a good one:

A 26-year-old Eugene, Oregon man unintentionally shot himself in the thigh with a handgun he was openly carrying in a holster on his leg.
The man was using the bathroom at Indra's Internet Lounge in downtown Eugene when he unintentionally discharged the gun. According to the owner of the cafe, after shooting himself the man crawled out of the bathroom and employees put a tourniquet on his leg to stop the bleeding until medical crews arrived. The owner added that the man was a regular at the cafe and was familiar with guns.
Police noted that in Oregon it is legal for someone to openly carry a holstered gun. Furthermore, someone wishing to openly carry a gun is not required to obtain any sort of carrying permit or undergo any sort of gun safety training.
Police are not releasing the man's name and don't plan on issuing any charges.

http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/ 93

[ExTank]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

I love that in the handful of anecdotes from the Armer Citizen, on the very first page, they have anecdotes from 1985 and from 1979! I know this isn't a systematic catalog, but sheesh, it's really hard to see how you're going to get to more than a couple hundred within a year.

When I click the link, it comes up to January 31, 2013. Maybe you have a browser setting issue?

ETA: A handfull? There's 11 pages when I load it. 94

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by ExTank

ATF's Milwaukee Sting Operation Marred by Mistakes, Failures.

You don't suppose any problems at ATF would have to do with the campaign by conservitves to hamstring it in anyway possible, including blocking the appointment of a permanent director for the last six years? 95

[artemis]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

Four of the 28 non-suicide/murder stories involve either dropping or leaving a gun in the bathroom/restroom. Guns and toilets apparently do not mix.

They really don't, actually, because most handguns are carried in waistband belt holsters, and using the toilet typically involves dropping your pants. It's very easy to have a gun drop out of a waistband holster that doesn't use a retention strap when a person drops their pants to use the loo, or for a person in the next stall to try to grab the gun out of the holster if they spot it while the gun owner's pants are around his/her ankles - and if the person puts the gun on the the back of the toilet to avoid those problems, then the person risks forgetting to pick the gun back up when he/she is done. This was actually discussed in my CCW class, and the instructors' recommendation was to remove the gun from the holster and place it in the crotch of the pants, which makes it impossible to absentmindedly forget it. 96

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by ExTank

When I click the link, it comes up to January 31, 2013. Maybe you have a browser setting issue?

ETA: A handfull? There's 11 pages when I load it.

Have you not read your own link? Item 15: "December, 1979". Item 19: "December, 1985."

So, unless my browser is inserting text, then not a browser problem.

Also, I too get 11 pages. Even including incidents from the year that Superbowl 13 was played, there are 22 items on page 1. 22 times 11 is indeed a handful of incidents. 97

[jasg]

Many of the blog entries also include a "from the archives" item as well as the recent one. 98

[Fiddle Peghead]

Originally Posted by runner pat

Image trying to store 5,000 rounds of ammo.

Potato rounds. Mmmmm! 99

[Fiddle Peghead]

Originally Posted by jasg

I'll lead with this AR-15 in Krogers.

"I think the law should be changed a little bit to say yes, you could carry open with a handgun, but you know you don't want to carry an assault weapon or any kind of shotgun in a public place of business," [National Rifle Association (NRA) instructor Bill Davis] said.

I'd prefer the law to say you may only open carry "large" weapons, if there must be open carry laws at all. That way, we'd all be much more likely to know that a gun-toting idiot is in the area. 100