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  #101  
Old 09-03-2016, 01:07 PM
Amateur Barbarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Yeah, it'll probably only kill a few kids. Nothing to worry about.
So will everything modern medicine does to save millions of them.

The arguments against vaccination are nonsense. The arguments against vaccinating a baby with fifteen things in a single day may be extremely weak, but they are IMHO stronger than the arguments that simply serve convenience.

Last edited by Amateur Barbarian; 09-03-2016 at 01:08 PM.
  #102  
Old 09-03-2016, 01:11 PM
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If there is absolutely anything to any part of vaccination contraindications, it is, or eventually will be found to be in the massive shotgun of vaxes given in combination, especially the first few rounds. Most dog breeders, for example, strongly recommend spacing out puppy vaxes, because they've seen pups sicken and die from getting the full slate in one day.
Only that it has not been found among human vaccines that have much more scrutiny than the ones given to dogs, and that antivaxxer point about dogs sounds a lot like a urban rumor.

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Infant immunizations have increased considerably in the last decade or so. Conceding absolutely nothing to the anti-vax morons, I can think of no reason except convenience and cost to the medical profession not to space out infant and toddler vaxes a little bit. It seems very much to be a "can't hurt, might avoid even rare complications" sort of move.
Oh, I can not think of a reason you missed post #51, There are reasons why even on that point the antivaxxers are morons.

And there are other reasons why the antivaxxers do like to push this item; because they have lost the argument in all other related issues, and they do know that many times people forget about getting the shots later or they do not have enough money to pay for the alternate schedules they are advised to follow by the antivaxxers.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...t-a-good-idea/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...ion-schedules/

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-03-2016 at 01:11 PM.
  #103  
Old 09-03-2016, 01:18 PM
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My current breeder lost pups in litters of recent years from overvaccination; she's a qualified vet and no longer allows her pups to be mass vaccinated. It's been no trouble to take my boy to his favorite vet here three times instead of once. I'm willing to sacrifice a tad of convenience for his possible benefit.

Not liking an argument because a group of shitheads uses it doesn't invalidate it. The only - ONLY - reason for mass vaccination is convenience, as defined by insurance companies and HMOs. Maybe there are vanishingly few problems with mass vax; there are fewer with spreading them out over a short time. It doesn't mean I stand with the flat-earthers or am giving them aid and comfort by saying so.
  #104  
Old 09-03-2016, 01:37 PM
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The same turd flavoured cumsack that wrote the 1000 page bullshit tract also believes that we never landed on the moon, that the government is covering up anti-gravity, free energy and contact with extra-terrestrials and a long list of other wacko conspiracies.
That seems to be common. Once you believe one wacko conspiracy the rest seem to follow, they all fall in place, and the good knowledge gets crowded out.

Earlier this year, our local community hospital -- the one that does modern surgeries, has a modern emergency room, and appears to be mainstream science -- held a free workshop on Tuesday nights for six weeks in two locations. Was this an opportunity for the public to learn useful anatomy, medicine, biology, chemistry or anthropology?

Not in the slightest. It was entitled, "Mind, Body & Spirit, Integrated Medicine Holistic Workshops." The curriculum was Acupressure, Critical Alignment Yoga Therapy, Aromatherapy, "Eating Live Foods," Art Therapy, and Integrative Biological Dentistry. That's the complete list.

Not a speck of medicine in there anywhere.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from a hospital that is supported by the Catholic Church. Mysticism is in its blood, so to speak.
  #105  
Old 09-03-2016, 01:52 PM
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I don't understand the value of individual inoculations. Apparently, the point is that kids do not get exposed to foreign bacteria all at once, except they do all the time...
Mankind is full of irrational fears. I used to be afraid of the scary monster under my bed or that God would punish me for taking an extra candy bar. Most of us grow out of these beliefs. Some people never do.
  #106  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
Not liking an argument because a group of shitheads uses it doesn't invalidate it. The only - ONLY - reason for mass vaccination is convenience, as defined by insurance companies and HMOs. Maybe there are vanishingly few problems with mass vax; there are fewer with spreading them out over a short time. It doesn't mean I stand with the flat-earthers or am giving them aid and comfort by saying so.
The death of a few kids because they, or the other kids around them, weren't vaccinated at the earliest possible opportunity is a problem with spreading out vaccination. And if there's a medical reason for spreading them out in a few cases, it's important that those kids are protected by everyone else being vaccinated.
  #107  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:32 PM
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Yeah, it'll probably only kill a few kids. Nothing to worry about.
Do you understand risk / reward? If the recommended schedule kills 1 in 1 million from rare vaccine side effects thats still much much much better than no vaccines at all. And it's also better than the 10 in 1 million that might result from a delayed schedule.
  #108  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:58 PM
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The only - ONLY - reason for mass vaccination is convenience, as defined by insurance companies and HMOs. M
You keep saying that. Why do you keep saying that.

Reasons for mass vaccination:
1) Fewer unvaccinated kids diluting the herd immunity
2) Less opportunity for the kid getting vaccinate to get the disease
3) Fewer seizures
4) Increased vaccination rates
5) Convenience
6) Lower cost for the parent, the physician's office and for insurance
7) Shorter wait times at the pediatrician's.
8) Fewer trips to the pediatrician's.

You can argue that 1 and 2 don't increase risk to a statistically significant degree, but seeing as some parents are stretching out the schedule over 6 years (sometimes letting them go completely unvaccinated until right before kindergarten), I would ask for a hell of a lot of data to support that argument.

You can say that 5, 6, 7 and 8 aren't worth risking children's health for, and I'll mostly agree, except to point out that every additional trip to the pediatrician's office comes with a free hour of exposure to every germ being sneezed and coughed into the air of the waiting room and drooled onto the chairs. Disgusting filthy places, waiting rooms.

But 3? C'mon, that's a real thing. A real physical effect that a delayed vaccination schedule can have. Seizures are no damn fun. They'll rarely fatal, but imagine you've got a parent who is vaccine hesitant enough to create their own schedule. Now the delayed MMR causes a seizure. What chances do you think you have now of getting them to continue the rest of the vaccinations? None, that's what you've got. You had your chance, and you blew it, and that kid is never getting another vaccine again.

Number 4 isn't to be underestimated, either. Too often, "we'll do it next time," turns into "we never did it." That's true of dieting, of exercise, of cleaning out the garage, and of vaccination.
  #109  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
If there is absolutely anything to any part of vaccination contraindications, it is, or eventually will be found to be in the massive shotgun of vaxes given in combination, especially the first few rounds.
Read the rest of my post, in which I go to some length explaining just how many germs kids are exposed to every fucking day, and how it happens. All a vaccination is is exposure to one specific microbe.

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Most dog breeders, for example, strongly recommend spacing out puppy vaxes, because they've seen pups sicken and die from getting the full slate in one day.
Oh, like a typical dog breeder knows any more about medicine than Jenny McCarthy. And we are talking about animals that stick their noses into each other's butts, seemingly to no ill effect.

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I can think of no reason except convenience and cost to the medical profession not to space out infant and toddler vaxes a little bit. It seems very much to be a "can't hurt, might avoid even rare complications" sort of move.
The convenience is also for the parents, who don't have to make the time for eight or ten different doctor appointments. And it really is a "can't hurt, might avoid even rare complications" sort of move to do them in combination.
  #110  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:35 PM
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I am dissapoint. No one is going to comment on my very harsh crtitiuque of the US for the blowback on vaccination by the methods used of the Osama Bin Laden raid. Sorry this is not something you can just ignore ith as a very serious price, eg taking 20 years more to eliminate Polio from the Planet.

Last edited by coremelt; 09-03-2016 at 03:36 PM.
  #111  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:48 PM
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Read the rest of my post, in which I go to some length explaining just how many germs kids are exposed to every fucking day, and how it happens. All a vaccination is is exposure to one specific microbe.
Or a dozen, in some vax sessions.

If kids are so exposed all the time, I guess they don't need vaxes, then, right? They're just sniffing all the antibodies they need out of each others' butts.

And yeah, I do rank the opinion of a DVM from Davis with an Sc.D. (I think) in immunology from Stanford who works in research and happens to raise dogs as a hobby pretty highly. Especially for one of her pups.

But I'll leave you to the froth. Mrs. B. needs some help with a presentation for the doctoral seminar that's capping off her 25+ years in autism therapy development.
  #112  
Old 09-03-2016, 03:59 PM
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My current breeder lost pups in litters of recent years from overvaccination; she's a qualified vet and no longer allows her pups to be mass vaccinated. It's been no trouble to take my boy to his favorite vet here three times instead of once. I'm willing to sacrifice a tad of convenience for his possible benefit.
Read it again, nothing what you report is based on research, only anecdote; and it does not deny the other point: human vaccines have been tested already, applying what is happening to dogs to humans is just anti vaccination pap.

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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
Not liking an argument because a group of shitheads uses it doesn't invalidate it. The only - ONLY - reason for mass vaccination is convenience, as defined by insurance companies and HMOs. Maybe there are vanishingly few problems with mass vax; there are fewer with spreading them out over a short time. It doesn't mean I stand with the flat-earthers or am giving them aid and comfort by saying so.
Of course it is not my problem that you show to all that you can not check links or read cites. Claiming that that is the ONLY reason shows only that you are just going into lala land and woo woo circles.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-03-2016 at 04:03 PM.
  #113  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:05 PM
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I spend a fair amount of time on a board with a lot of anti-vaxxers. There is no argument you can make that they don't have a an answer for. An answer that's wrong or illogical but that they'll cling to with a tenacity that is truly impressive.

They believe virtually every diagnosis a child ever gets is a vaccine injury...it goes way beyond autism. Autoimmune problem? Vax injury. ADHD? Vax injury. Processing disorder? Vax injury. Speech delay? Vax injury. Motor skill issue? Vax injury. Chronic ear infections? Vax injury. Fell down and broke your arm? Vax injury (not kidding). They even have the mysterious "their eyes just look DULL" vax injury that I've certainly never noticed in my kids or any of their friends.

They believe that vaccines don't prevent disease, those diseases were going away anyway due to clean water and sanitation. Don't bother pointing out that some of these diseases were prevalent long after those developments, and that those same diseases are being eradicated in places that don't have reliably clean water and sanitation. They'll handwave those facts away.

They believe that herd immunity through vaccines is a myth and that herd immunity develops only with "true" immunity that people get through having the disease. Don't try to argue that herd immunity is kinda worthless if everyone has to have the disease first in order for it to exist...they think disease-induced immunity is far superior for mysterious reasons.

They believe that the smallest, worst-designed, least-robust studies are superior to all others if they show any kind of correlation between vaccines and a health problem, forget about asking about causation...that hasn't been found because no one wants to find it, and the drug companies smooth over and sidestep any data that doesn't show that vaccines are 100% safe. Don't bother arguing that if something's not statistically significant, then it's not and that studies don't look at individual cases for a reason.

Seriously, there is nothing....nothing that will convince these people. And it's difficult because many of them have their own observational data that tells them that their child was injured by a vaccine, so if you argue that it's likely not the case you just look like an unsympathetic asshole. It's an issue that thanks to Mr. Wakefield will always be with us.
  #114  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
Or a dozen, in some vax sessions.

If kids are so exposed all the time, I guess they don't need vaxes, then, right? They're just sniffing all the antibodies they need out of each others' butts.
Missing the point idiotically.

It is an idiot argument here because the point about the capability of the human immunological system was made to counter the idiot argument that humans can not deal with multiple inoculations. Unfortunately the bugs that we can get in epidemics are not available in controlled or inert dosages around us to make our own vaccines.

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And yeah, I do rank the opinion of a DVM from Davis with an Sc.D. (I think) in immunology from Stanford who works in research and happens to raise dogs as a hobby pretty highly. Especially for one of her pups.
Again, unless you do think that dogs have the same immunology system as humans your point is idiotic to use for human vaccines that have been tested already many times and used too millions of times with virtually no effects as the ones the Vets you point at claim it is happening among dogs.

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But I'll leave you to the froth. Mrs. B. needs some help with a presentation for the doctoral seminar that's capping off her 25+ years in autism therapy development.
As long as she is not letting you apply your apples to the oranges she is presenting she will be fine.
  #115  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:17 PM
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And yeah, I do rank the opinion of a DVM from Davis with an Sc.D. (I think) in immunology from Stanford who works in research and happens to raise dogs as a hobby pretty highly. Especially for one of her pups.
Make sure to feed your kids a balanced diet to keep their noses wet and coats glossy
  #116  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:18 PM
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I wonder what causes otherwise educated people to believe in this rot. In Canada, my country, a fellow who operates a natural food store let his kid die of meningitis rather than take him to a hospital. They would rather use natural remedies:

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In a bid to boost his immune system, the couple gave the boy — who was lethargic and becoming stiff — various home remedies, such as water with maple syrup, juice with frozen berries and finally a mixture of apple cider vinegar, horse radish root, hot peppers, mashed onion, garlic and ginger root as his condition deteriorated.
By the time they took the child to a hospital, it was too late, he didn't make it.

Here's a link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...rway-1.3479460

In South Africa, there's a wide AIDS-denying movement. They're not saying being poor puts you at risk of AIDS, they're saying poverty causes AIDS. Unfortunately, presidents after Nelson Mandela believed in this nonsense too, including the current president, Jacob Zuma.

Zuma, when the health minister, allegedly raped an HIV-positive woman (he knew she was HIV-positive, and claimed it was consensual), a serious crime by itself, then delivered some "health advice":
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During the trial, Zuma admitted to having unprotected sex with his accuser, whom he knew to be HIV positive, but claimed that he took a shower afterwards to cut the risk of contracting HIV. This statement has been condemned by the judge, health experts, AIDS activists and the public in general.
He was found not guilty, and didn't die an ironic death. (Luckily for him, the transmission rate isn't 100%, but the shower did nothing to reduce the risk.)

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma_rape_trial

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In Spain you can lose custody of your children if you refuse to get them the required vaccinations. If a child can't have them for a medical reason that goes to their medical history, but the only acceptable reasons are medical ones. Other than that, the few unvaccinated people we have are almost 100% immigrants (there are occasional pockets of very low-income-level people who haven't registered the kids or ever taken them to a doctor out of a general "don't trust the man" mindset; when these are detected, doctors are taken to them).
There was another thread a few weeks ago about taking children away from unskilled parents. I wish this had been mentioned in that thread.
  #117  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:32 PM
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Missing the point idiotically.
My point is simple: I can't think of any situation where acting for the convenience of the institution produces a better situation for the consumer or individual. Vaccines are not special snowflakes in this regard, and I'm going to remain suspicious any time we're asked to do something that just happens to be (1) massively profitable or (2) exceptionally convenient for those making the demand.

If you want to think I'm somehow a Jenny McCarthy fan because of that, fine. Great tits.

Last edited by Amateur Barbarian; 09-03-2016 at 04:33 PM.
  #118  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:37 PM
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My point is simple: I can't think of any situation where acting for the convenience of the institution produces a better situation for the consumer or individual. Vaccines are not special snowflakes in this regard, and I'm going to remain suspicious any time we're asked to do something that just happens to be (1) massively profitable or (2) exceptionally convenient for those making the demand.

If you want to think I'm somehow a Jenny McCarthy fan because of that, fine. Great tits.
I don't understand. They'd make more money if they only let you get one vaccine at a time, and you needed to pay a visit fee and administration fee each time.

How do they make more money doing several vaccinations at one visit?
  #119  
Old 09-03-2016, 04:51 PM
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My point is simple: I can't think of any situation where acting for the convenience of the institution produces a better situation for the consumer or individual.
Again, telling all that you are not looking at the links provided is not a way to convince others, you only show to all that 1) you can not reply to the evidence presented and 2) you are looking more like an idiot for not taking into account what was presented before, this is because this was linked already too and clearly willfully ignored by you as you have demonstrated:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...t-a-good-idea/
Quote:
The recommended vaccine schedule is not, it turns out, arbitrary or designed to maximize the profits of the vaccine industry. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) recommended vaccine schedule is designed to give children vaccines as soon as they need them and are old enough to handle them – maximizing benefit while minimizing risk. Booster shots are optimized to produce a sufficient antibody response for maximal protection. I don’t think anyone would argue that the schedule is perfect, but it is rational and evidence-based.

Also, no one argues that the risk of vaccines is zero. No medical intervention has a zero risk. In medicine we look at risk vs benefit. Vaccines have one of the highest (if not the highest) benefit to risk ratios of any major medical intervention we have developed. It is ironic that it is attacked by ideologues as unsafe.

One potential risk of vaccines is that the immune response they elicit may cause a fever which in turn might cause, in susceptible children, a febrile seizure. In rare cases vaccinations have been followed by encephalitis (brain inflammation) with not only seizures but more serious neurological complications. The incidence of post-vaccination encephalitis is 1-2 cases per million vaccines, and this is just association, without knowing how many represent true cause and effect.

A recently-published study sheds further light on the risk of seizures following vaccination, and also compares the recommended vaccine schedule to delayed schedules.” Timely Versus Delayed Early Childhood Vaccination and Seizures“, was recently published in the journal, Pediatrics. They found:

METHODS: In a cohort of 323 247 US children from the Vaccine Safety Datalink born from 2004 to 2008, we analyzed the association between the timing of childhood vaccination and the first occurrence of seizure with a self-controlled case series analysis of the first doses of individual vaccines received in the first 2 years of life.
RESULTS: In infants, there was no association between the timing of infant vaccination and postvaccination seizures. In the second year of life, the incident rate ratio (IRR) for seizures after receipt of the first measles-mumps-rubella vaccine (MMR) dose at 12 to 15 months was 2.65 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.99–3.55); the IRR after an MMR dose at 16 to 23 months was 6.53 (95% CI 3.15–13.53). The IRR for seizures after receipt of the first measles-mumps-rubella-varicella vaccine (MMRV) dose at 12 to 15 months was 4.95 (95% CI 3.68–6.66); the IRR after an MMRV dose at 16 to 23 months was 9.80 (95% CI 4.35 –22.06).

What this means is that, in the first year of life, there was no difference in seizure risk between children who received the full vaccine schedule on time, and those who had delayed or reduced vaccines. In this age group, alternate vaccine schedules had no benefit on the risk of seizures.

In the second year of life, however, those who delayed the MMR vaccine to 12-15 months had almost triple the seizure risk, while those delaying to after 16 months had a 6 times greater risk. This increased risk was even higher for the MMRV vaccine.

This data strongly suggests that getting vaccines on time has a lower risk of post-vaccination febrile seizures than delaying to the second year of life, when the inherent risk is greater.

While this is a large study with rigorous methods, it is a retrospective cohort study, not a prospective randomized study. Therefore it is possible that there are confounding factors. Still it provides strong evidence that the current vaccine schedule is superior to alternative or delayed schedules.
Bottom line: when you continue to tell us after that that you can not think of "any situation" were the vaccines are given not just because of the convenience of the institutions you are indeed only depending on woo woo sources; and no, the vets that you are using as a source for this is an attempt at comparing apples and oranges. Simply an stupid point.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-03-2016 at 04:53 PM.
  #120  
Old 09-03-2016, 08:47 PM
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How do they make more money doing several vaccinations at one visit?
In the magic space of his empty fucking head, all things are possible.
  #121  
Old 09-03-2016, 09:01 PM
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You asserted that the individual vaccinations became popular only after Wakefield was debunked. I have told you my own recollections that this is not correct, and given a link to an article about someone else's memories which again demonstrate that you are not correct.
No, go back and read what I said particularly in my second response to you. What I said is supported precisely by your cite.
  #122  
Old 09-04-2016, 12:10 AM
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How do they make more money doing several vaccinations at one visit?
I've seen anti-vaxxers argue at the same time that "big pharma" makes absurd profits on vaccines and that they take dangerous shortcuts to lower the price and save money They are also peddling absurd figures that the average cost of a vaccine is $300 and that it costs $57,000 for a lifetime course of vaccines. When I gave them the UNICEF / WHO statistics that show that most vaccines cost under a $1 per dose they ran away and had no reply.

The irony is that the anti-vaxxers campaign against "mercury" in Vaccines has raised the cost of vaccines because they don't use Thiomersal anymore, so it's killing more children in developing countries because they can't afford to cover as many people with the same budget. Brings me back to my original title, if you are against vaccines you are a selfish scumbag who kills children. (got the grammar right that time )

Last edited by coremelt; 09-04-2016 at 12:11 AM.
  #123  
Old 09-04-2016, 12:51 AM
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And since this is the pit, it has to be reminded to all that Donald Trump is this kind of scumbag, just the prospect of him using the biggest bully pulpit to "advise" all the the American people on vaccines; and giving him the power to appoint scumbags like him to be the director of the CDC, makes me not sleep at night comfortably.
  #124  
Old 09-04-2016, 04:55 AM
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Absolutely, He has tried to use Autism sufferers as a political prop with zero evidence. Here is an Autist calling him out on it: ( sorry if thats offensive to anyone I don't know what the name autistic people call themselves is)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7027676.html

Last edited by coremelt; 09-04-2016 at 04:57 AM.
  #125  
Old 09-04-2016, 06:52 AM
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Absolutely, He has tried to use Autism sufferers as a political prop with zero evidence. Here is an Autist calling him out on it: ( sorry if thats offensive to anyone I don't know what the name autistic people call themselves is)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7027676.html
Usually Bob, Jim, or Sally. Something like that

(Whatever the diagnosis, it's usually safest and most respectful to say "person with _________". That keeps the emphasis on their humanity, while also letting us know why their opinion might be relevant. "Here is a person with autism calling him out on it," works just fine.)
  #126  
Old 09-04-2016, 07:43 AM
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Thanks for that WhyNot and I'd upvote you if this board allowed it !
  #127  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:10 AM
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And she's back! Return of the anti-vaxxer on facebook this time using the "wake up sheeple" non-argument that we are all ignorant. The irony, it burns.
Incidentally my iPhone auto corrects vaxxer to cancer which is quite appropriate since "vaxxer" is only ever used to refer to anti-vax ignorant people
  #128  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:49 AM
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Usually Bob, Jim, or Sally. Something like that

(Whatever the diagnosis, it's usually safest and most respectful to say "person with _________". That keeps the emphasis on their humanity, while also letting us know why their opinion might be relevant. "Here is a person with autism calling him out on it," works just fine.)
Hijack alert: It's tricky because for some in the Autism and the Deaf communities, person-first language is not preferred. So it's an interesting conundrum, though I think your advice is still sound.
  #129  
Old 09-04-2016, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Hijack alert: It's tricky because for some in the Autism and the Deaf communities, person-first language is not preferred. So it's an interesting conundrum, though I think your advice is still sound.
Yeah, hence the "usually" hedge.

Can't open your mouth without risking offense to someone, but you can play the odds.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:27 AM
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Yeah, hence the "usually" hedge.
"Usually" is not accurate when it comes to autism, the specific population the poster was asking about.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:37 AM
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I am dissapoint. No one is going to comment on my very harsh crtitiuque of the US for the blowback on vaccination by the methods used of the Osama Bin Laden raid. Sorry this is not something you can just ignore ith as a very serious price, eg taking 20 years more to eliminate Polio from the Planet.
This meme ignores the fact that religious, superstitious and polically-based objections to vaccination existed in Third World countries long before the CIA's infamous (and stupid) project to track bin Laden.

"The CIA is not exclusively responsible for the problems we have in getting children vaccinated but it certainly didn't make it anything easier,' says Anthony Robbins, the co-editor of the Journal of Public Health Policy. Robbins wrote an editorial denouncing the CIA use of fake vaccination programs back in August of 2012. Even before bin Laden was killed in 2011, the Taliban had banned polio immunization in the parts of Pakistan it controls. The Taliban claimed the polio drops sterilize Pakistani children and vaccinators were American spies."

From a 2009 paper:

"Religious opposition by Muslim fundamentalists is a major factor in the failure of immunization programs against polio in Nigeria (2), Pakistan (3) and Afghanistan (4). This religious conflict in the tribal areas of Pakistan is one of the biggest hindrances to effective polio vaccination. Epidemiologists have detected transmission of wild poliovirus from polio-endemic districts in Afghanistan, most of which are located in the southern region of this country bordering Pakistan, to tribal areas of Pakistan (4). This transmission has resulted in new cases of polio in previously polio-free districts. The local Taliban have issued fatwas denouncing vaccination as an American ploy to sterilize Muslim populations. Another common superstition spread by extremists is that vaccination is an attempt to avert the will of Allah. The Taliban have assassinated vaccination officials, including Abdul Ghani Marwat, who was the head of the government’s vaccination campaign in Bajaur Agency in the Pakistani tribal areas, on his way back from meeting a religious cleric (5). Over the past year, several kidnappings and beatings of vaccinators have been reported. Vaccination campaigns in Nigeria and Afghanistan have also been hampered by Islamic extremists, especially in the Nigerian province of Kano in 2003, which has resulted in the infection returning to 8 previously polio-free countries in Africa."

We can laugh or shake our heads in disgust at such beliefs, but when well-off and supposedly educated Westerners concoct and promulgate equally fact-deficient antivax arguments, it's clear we still have work to do at home.
  #132  
Old 09-04-2016, 11:58 AM
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We can laugh or shake our heads in disgust at such beliefs, but when well-off and supposedly educated Westerners concoct and promulgate equally fact-deficient antivax arguments, it's clear we still have work to do at home.
None of what you quoted changes the fact that some very educated local bureau chief or possibly intelligence agency chief made a conscious decision to use a vaccination worker as an intelligence asset. Sorry that's evil and wrong and the price we have paid does not justify the payoff.
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:23 PM
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None of what you quoted changes the fact that some very educated local bureau chief or possibly intelligence agency chief made a conscious decision to use a vaccination worker as an intelligence asset. Sorry that's evil and wrong and the price we have paid does not justify the payoff.
Make another attempt to understand the point.

The CIA's action, while deplorable, is not responsible for a large undercurrent of antivax superstition and religious/politically-based opposition in the Muslim world that existed well before the bin Laden operation. It didn't help matters, but it didn't create the situation either.
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:40 PM
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"Usually" is not accurate when it comes to autism, the specific population the poster was asking about.
I disagree. I've been doing some searching since your post to try and better educate myself, and I'm getting a lot that go both ways. The consensus seems to be that there is no consensus, and it's best to politely ask the person you're talking about what they prefer.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:46 PM
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I disagree. I've been doing some searching since your post to try and better educate myself, and I'm getting a lot that go both ways. The consensus seems to be that there is no consensus, and it's best to politely ask the person you're talking about what they prefer.
Well, precisely, which means it's not "usually."
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:25 PM
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The CIA's action, while deplorable, is not responsible for a large undercurrent of antivax superstition and religious/politically-based opposition in the Muslim world that existed well before the bin Laden operation. It didn't help matters, but it didn't create the situation either.
No it didn't create the suspicion but it made it lots lots worse not just a little bit. Read the articles I linked. The use of a vaccination worker to try and get the intelligence on Osama Bin Laden has of course been widely reported through out the region. Local residents now have a justified reason to be suspicious of vaccination aid workers while really they didn't before. Overall it has had a huge impact and I stand by my claim that this single action has probably put back the eradication of Polio by 10-20 years.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:58 PM
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I am "dissapoint".
  #138  
Old 09-04-2016, 06:14 PM
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I had all my shots as a kid, except one: whooping cough--the specialists believed it was risky due to my condition. I also had respiratory problems, and if I caught whooping cough from an unvaccinated child, I probably wasn't going to be long for this world. So I had to rely on everyone else to be responsible members of the community.

This Wakefield bullshit has set things up so that everyone thinks they get to have an opinion. It's not about individual rights--it's about the social contract. If you want the goodies that come with being in a society, you have to hold up your end of the bargain. It's basically on the same level as tax evasion.
So how do I convince my older niece, who thinks vaccination should be a choice, not a mandate, because there is a "risk" involved --to stop quoting Wakefield on FB and to start thinking about her kids and others?
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Old 09-04-2016, 06:18 PM
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Tell her that a wise person makes good choices based on sound, rational facts. And the facts are that even today a child is FAR less likely to suffer and adverse event from a vaccine than from the disease the vaccine prevents.

Urge her to choose vaccination.
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Old 09-04-2016, 06:50 PM
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1. Yes, there is risk, but there is a greater risk that comes with not vaccinating.

2. Due to herd immunity, one person choosing not to vaccinate will not really make much difference. But that's the free rider problem, and it effectively flags you as a parasite if you're reaping the benefits of everyone else's actions. Furthermore, if enough people individually make that choice, the effects become very noticeable very quickly, and it's exactly because of Wakefield's recklessness that it's more crucial today to vaccinate than it was 30 years ago.

3. By not vaccinating, you are creating a dangerous threat for those most vulnerable. It's a particularly repugnant kind of selfishness.

Of course, anyone quoting Wakefield is impervious to reason. Such people are essentially domestic terrorists, endangering many in the service of their own delusions. They cannot be convinced.
  #141  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:13 PM
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Perhaps you could point out that one of the complications of many of these diseases IS brain damage -- which can lead to permanent mental retardation. That's what's so insane about the whole "vaccines cause autism!" bullshit. If anything, kids are more at risk for brain damage from the very diseases these vaccines prevent. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Old 09-05-2016, 02:10 PM
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I'll try. Not on FB, though. I'm not about to be drawn into endless battles with all the morons who will come out of the woodwork there.

It will be a tough sell, for sure, since the very-far-right niece is certain that Evil Hillary will mandate vaccines and take away "freedom of choice."
  #143  
Old 09-05-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by vivalostwages View Post
I'll try. Not on FB, though. I'm not about to be drawn into endless battles with all the morons who will come out of the woodwork there.

It will be a tough sell, for sure, since the very-far-right niece is certain that Evil Hillary will mandate vaccines and take away "freedom of choice."
This item is very interesting to me because the woo woo was mostly rare but evenly distributed among party or ideological groups; suddenly most of the Republican candidates, and the remaining one, came out strong with the woo and it is percolating hard among the rank and file Republicans.

As if there was a need to add another anti-science and stupid issue that the crank Republicans needed to add to their litmus tests.

(Besides anti-evolution, bigotry, climate change denial and others)

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-05-2016 at 02:51 PM.
  #144  
Old 09-05-2016, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by vivalostwages View Post
So how do I convince my older niece, who thinks vaccination should be a choice, not a mandate, because there is a "risk" involved --to stop quoting Wakefield on FB and to start thinking about her kids and others?
You might get her to start thinking about relative risks. Sure there is risk involved. If she lets her kids out the door, there is risk involved. If she drives them somewhere there is risk involved. But there is less risk getting them vaccinated than not. And even more if others follow her lead.
  #145  
Old 09-05-2016, 09:52 PM
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Perhaps get her to read about the effects of some of these diseases, what they do to a person, the complications that arise. Maybe ask her to talk to some older people who lost relatives to them.
  #146  
Old 09-06-2016, 12:09 AM
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Ugh, another outbreak of antivax popped up on another friends facebook feed. I'm seeing a pattern of the same tired old myths and when they're debunked they retreat to "well that's just your opinion and mine is just as valid" and then "you're a violent dictator if you want to force people to get vaccinated against their will".

Yes just like we are violent dictators because we eventually use physical force if people fail to pay their taxes (after other avenues are exhausted).

It was very satisfying however to have one of them try to pull the "Does anyone here actually have any education in biology?". Yep, two qualified biologists who had already been arguing with him stuck their hands up.
  #147  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
I'm sorry, I just can no longer let that statement pass unchallenged.

Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags WHO kill children.

Okay, better. Carry on.
WHO is reserved for humans. Got any evidence that ignorant scumbag anti-vaxxers are human?
  #148  
Old 09-07-2016, 03:51 PM
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There was another thread a few weeks ago about taking children away from unskilled parents. I wish this had been mentioned in that thread.
While I do not believe children should be taken from parents, there are simple legal steps that should be taken:

1. Parents who choose not to immunize their children should not be allowed to send them to day cares, publically run camps, or schools with other children, be they public or accredited private.

2. Any person who chooses not to immunize their child (obviously, without a genuine medical reason) must pay the Immunization Refusal Tax. The IRT is 10% of gross income,OR $3000, whichever is higher, per child. This tax is subject to no deduction of any sort and must be paid annually in full. There are no discounts for large families; parents with six unimmunized children must pay 60% of their gross income as an IRT tax. Like income tax it is a positive duty. Failure to pay the tax is illegal and punishable by imprisonment.
  #149  
Old 09-07-2016, 04:08 PM
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WHO is reserved for humans. Got any evidence that ignorant scumbag anti-vaxxers are human?
How about demons? Do demons get to be "who" and not "that?"
  #150  
Old 09-07-2016, 05:58 PM
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"Which".
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