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  #51  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:21 AM
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Oh for God's sake. He went on a date. She didn't have a good time. He clearly deserves the fucking electric chair.
We had a lenghty discussion on this when it was fresh. Per her own admission, everytime she asked him to stop or slow down, he did. Everything she asked he complied.

He got crucified anyway. No wonder he is annoyed.

I never liked Louis CK and found Ansari cringeworthy. But anyone who places them in the same cohort is a lunatic.
This is another example of that weird phenomenon in which any criticism of any man accused of something is equated to "the fucking electric chair", and/or equal to Cosby or Trump or whomever.

Ascenray's criticism of Ansari was quite different than his criticism of Louis CK. Apparently nuanced criticism is too much for some folks. But I think if you read it carefully, you'd see that there was nothing even close to over the top in what he said about Ansari.
  #52  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:26 AM
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I offered that as one possible example of evidence that he was serious about trying to make up for his misdeeds. I'm not sure why that would be a weird or unusual assertion -- if a famous entertainer did something seriously morally wrong, then it seems reasonable that a former fan would urge him to demonstrate honest and humble contrition, which might take quite a while, before considering paying for his entertainment again.

It's not about "groveling apology" or "I'm totally woke" -- it's about demonstrating some sort of self-awareness about the bad things he's done, and why these actions were bad, and how they harmed people, and being sorry about it because of those things, not because it hurt his career. There's no legal requirement for him to do this, but I think there's a moral requirement. YMMV, but I'm not sure why this strikes you as such a "frigging" unusual suggestion.
You are misremembering. It wasn't one possible way, it was your bare minimum.
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I think his apology was, at best, a tentative first step, and IMO he'd need to do a lot more to demonstrate that he's learned from his mistakes, regrets them, fully understands why they were wrong, apologizes and makes amends to each person whose consent he violated, and pledges to donate the majority of his earnings going forward to fighting sexual assault, at a bare minimum, before I'd even consider seeing him live again.
And I am not going to explain why pledging the majority of his earnings to charity in order to win your ticket purchase is over the top. That is obvious enough to rational people.

Last edited by CarnalK; 01-17-2019 at 08:29 AM.
  #53  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:37 AM
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You are misremembering. It wasn't one possible way, it was your bare minimum.
That was my bare minimum for going to see him again. It's also an example of evidence he's making a serious attempt at contrition.

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And I am not going to explain why pledging the majority of his earnings to charity in order to win your ticket purchase is over the top. That is obvious enough to rational people.
I still don't get it. He's an extraordinarily rich and successful entertainer. Is it really that unusual to expect those with a lot to give a lot, especially if they have hurt people, before deciding to give them business again?

This is just a silly internet conversation, and what I say about Louis CK matters zero to CK himself. But why is such a statement, in a silly internet conversation, so "over the top" or irrational?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 01-17-2019 at 08:39 AM.
  #54  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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That was my bare minimum for going to see him again. It's also an example of evidence he's making a serious attempt at contrition.
  #55  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:12 AM
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Do you have a link to his leaked set, the full bit instead of one quoted sentence, how do you know he wasn't making some weird point or something unless you watched it with an open mind and heard the entire thing?
It is on youtube as:
"Louis C K NEW STAND UP 2018 12 16 2018 Full"

I won't link because the mods probably don't like links to what I expect is copyright breaching materials.

I listened to it. It's quite funny, I didn't find it offensive at all. It's a bit edgy, but nothing unusual. Auschwitz, children chained to radiators, retard, faggot, asians reproduce by math, that sort of thing.

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Yes, because it's punching down.

Louis C.K. didn't used to punch down. Now he does. That's ugly. (And, yeah, it's a right-wing kind of ugliness.)
I suppose if a lynch mob have you dangling from a lamppost then down is the only way you can punch.
  #56  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:42 AM
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He clearly deserves the fucking electric chair.
Come on, I know you're smarter than that.

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Per her own admission, everytime she asked him to stop or slow down, he did. Everything she asked he complied.
That means what he did was legal and doesn't constitute assault of any kind. But that's not the standard I expect from people I admore.

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He got crucified
No, he didn't get "crucified." He was criticized. And the criticism was largely proportional to what it is he did.
  #57  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:45 AM
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I suppose if a lynch mob have you dangling from a lamppost then down is the only way you can punch.
Heh. When misogynists are bombarding women (who did nothing worse than calmly express an ideological opinion from a feminist viewpoint) with vile obscenities and death threats, and announcing plans to commit mass murder at events where such women are speaking, blindboyard calls their actions "standard creepy stalker messages" and "prank calls".

But when people criticize an asshole comedian who jerked off in front of women without their consent, and decide they don't want to buy any more of his wares, blindboyard calls them "a lynch mob" who have the comedian "dangling from a lamppost".

It is pretty clear that blindboyard's assessment of behavioral heinousness depends on whether sexist pigs and misogynists are the perpetrators or the targets of it.
  #58  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:01 AM
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Idiocy isn't a power, no matter how many Republicans claim it to be so.
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  #59  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:02 AM
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Oh for God's sake. He went on a date. She didn't have a good time. He clearly deserves the fucking electric chair.
Yes, clearly there is no middle ground between chastising someone and physically killing them. Well spotted.
  #60  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:08 AM
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Yes, clearly there is no middle ground between chastising someone and physically killing them. Well spotted.
Yes there is. The writer of the article and the lady in question both merited it. And got it.
  #61  
Old 01-17-2019, 02:00 PM
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I remember a leaked routine Louis did years back when he joked that 9/11 was ok because some of the people who died might’ve been assholes. He followed that up with about five minutes on whether it was wrong to rape a fetus. The guy’s always said fucked up stuff. It ain’t new.
Sure, and comedians sometimes try jokes that don't work. The thing is, Louis was FUNNY. Maybe this joke or that joke didn't land, but enough jokes did - and landed really, really well - that he was hilarious.

From what we've heard of the new stuff, he just isn't funny. His "jokes" about how kids today are no good are just awful, absolutely hack. You can hear exactly the same lame, obvious lines at any suburban open mic night, and they'll often be done better.

If a comedian is sufficiently funny, they can do jokes about anything. 9/11, fetuses, Parkland survivors, whatever; the audience will forgive almost anything if it's funny. Some comedian right now is working on a joke about school shootings or the #Metoo movement that is going to bring the house down this weekend. Louis CK's new material is shit, the kind of grumpy crap one sadly expects from most old comedians who've lost their spark.
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  #62  
Old 01-17-2019, 02:05 PM
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Have you listened to the whole routine? Because "From what we've heard of the new stuff" doesn't sound like it and he's probably still editing anyway. It sure seems to me that people are working hard to come up with justification not to like him outside of the perfectly valid "I can't forgive him".

Last edited by CarnalK; 01-17-2019 at 02:07 PM.
  #63  
Old 01-17-2019, 03:05 PM
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Sure, and comedians sometimes try jokes that don't work. The thing is, Louis was FUNNY. Maybe this joke or that joke didn't land, but enough jokes did - and landed really, really well - that he was hilarious.

From what we've heard of the new stuff, he just isn't funny. His "jokes" about how kids today are no good are just awful, absolutely hack. You can hear exactly the same lame, obvious lines at any suburban open mic night, and they'll often be done better.
I’ve heard the full thing and yeah that bit didn’t land but it was a pirated club set so some bits are bound to be rough round the edges. If he’d put the bit in a Netflix special that’d be different but gives the circumstances I’ll give him a pass on some jokes not working.

In his defence some other bits in the show were really good. Twitter picked out a couple of bits that sucked but the whole set had a good 30 minutes of top quality material.
  #64  
Old 01-17-2019, 03:22 PM
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In his defence some other bits in the show were really good. Twitter picked out a couple of bits that sucked but the whole set had a good 30 minutes of top quality material.
Opinions differ, but I have heard and performed a lot of club comedy and honestly, I thought it was pretty bad from front to back. If that was the headline act at a regular show it would be the worst headliner I'd ever seen.
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  #65  
Old 01-30-2019, 06:30 AM
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Ooh, I missed this thread when it was going around. So let me add a perspective I found interesting.

Louis CK's "edgy" work is nothing of the sort. It fails on a basic level to be shock humor, because nothing in it is "shocking" to the audience. The reason shock humor works (once you get past the age where you instinctively laugh at boners and farts) is, fundamentally, because it's the standup equivalent of removing the safety net on a high-wire act. You're risking poisoning your audience against you for the sake of the payoff. But CK's routine isn't that. It's bland. It's standard. It's shit that was done to death a decade ago on 4chan, and a decade before that by hacks like Dennis Miller. The kind of people who would be interested in seeing a Louis CK show at this point? They probably aren't going to be shocked or scandalized by a shitty attack helicopter joke. They're going to feel reassured in their shitty worldview.

This is the same problem this spate of right-wing or right-adjacent comedians talking about "triggering" their audience has. Nobody who would willingly listen to Dennis Miller (or, to put it another way, nobody who would rather listen to Dennis Miller than have their cock fed to a malfunctioning industrial shredder) is going to be "triggered" by any of his material. That kind of shitty, punching-down bigotry is rote and standard for the people listening. It's not shock humor. It's preaching to the choir. It's sitting there telling people, "Those things you already believe but sometimes aren't willing to say because other people don't want to associate with bigots? That's fine by me. You're fine when you do that." There's no risk in that shit. And it sure as hell isn't shock comedy.
  #66  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:37 AM
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LouisCK ownes nothing to most of us (those women on the other hand, substantial damages hopefully), so I found and still found the OP to be weak.

If I had to guess, LouisCK is now seeing the MRA, white nationalist crowd as his staple. Fair enough. They are welcome to him, and he has to earn a living. The OP feels some ownership of the comedian and is hurt.Why? You (and I) will probably be even less welcome at future LouisCK event, then at a Klan rally.....and I have been to one of the later, so I am guessing it won't be much fun. They could use the laughs to losen up a bit.

Last edited by AK84; 01-30-2019 at 07:38 AM.
  #67  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:51 AM
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If I had to guess, LouisCK is now seeing the MRA, white nationalist crowd as his staple. Fair enough. They are welcome to him, and he has to earn a living. The OP feels some ownership of the comedian and is hurt.Why?
"Ownership". C'mon, man. Never had a celebrity you were a fan of turn out to be a really shitty person? And it's not just that CK's material got weak or offensive - it's that the memetics of the MRA/White nationalist crowd is actively dangerous, and a comedy routine reinforcing that bullshit hurts people.

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You (and I) will probably be even less welcome at future LouisCK event, then at a Klan rally.....and I have been to one of the later, so I am guessing it won't be much fun. They could use the laughs to losen up a bit.
I, for one, would quite like it if there were fewer KKK rallies. I would appreciate it if there were less public outlets for the thoughts of mens rights activists and white supremacists. I would especially like it if there were less famous, popular, beloved outlets for said thoughts.
  #68  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This is another example of that weird phenomenon in which any criticism of any man accused of something is equated to "the fucking electric chair", and/or equal to Cosby or Trump or whomever.

Ascenray's criticism of Ansari was quite different than his criticism of Louis CK. Apparently nuanced criticism is too much for some folks. But I think if you read it carefully, you'd see that there was nothing even close to over the top in what he said about Ansari.
And to add to the “she just had a bad date” meme. Yes, she had a bad date, but you can say that about a lot of things that might happen on a date.

In this case she had a bad date because a specific society-wise reason having to with how men are socialized in our society.

What Aziz did wasn’t as bad as what Cosby did, but it was still a reflection of societal misogyny. What I expected him to do after what seemed like a good first statement was “culture taught me that that behavior was okay, but now I see it isn’t, and we should all reject that kind of behavior.”

That and subsequent behavior consistent with that would have been enough for me to put that episode in the past.

The irony here is that both Louis and Aziz were known for including material in their acts that reflected an awareness of societal and individual misogyny.

Last edited by Acsenray; 01-30-2019 at 08:03 AM.
  #69  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:13 AM
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"Ownership". C'mon, man. Never had a celebrity you were a fan of turn out to be a really shitty person? And it's not just that CK's material got weak or offensive - it's that the memetics of the MRA/White nationalist crowd is actively dangerous, and a comedy routine reinforcing that bullshit hurts people.

I am looking to consume a celebs output, not marry them. I rarely care about their personal life.
Winston Churchill was a genocidal, racist fuckwit. I still find his works and speeches to be nearly unrivalled.

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I, for one, would quite like it if there were fewer KKK rallies. I would appreciate it if there were less public outlets for the thoughts of mens rights activists and white supremacists. I would especially like it if there were less famous, popular, beloved outlets for said thoughts.
I would rather such views were not held at all. However, I am not stupid enough to think that they i) don't exits and that ii) surpressing them will somehow make them go away. They will lose out on their own merit.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:15 AM
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And to add to the “she just had a bad date” meme. Yes, she had a bad date, but you can say that about a lot of things that might happen on a date.

In this case she had a bad date because a specific society-wise reason having to with how men are socialized in our society.

What Aziz did wasn’t as bad as what Cosby did, but it was still a reflection of societal misogyny. What I expected him to do after what seemed like a good first statement was “culture taught me that that behavior was okay, but now I see it isn’t, and we should all reject that kind of behavior.”

That and subsequent behavior consistent with that would have been enough for me to put that episode in the past.
Oh for fucks sake.
You sound like a bad parody of an internet woke individual.
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The irony here is that both Louis and Aziz were known for including material in their acts that reflected an awareness of societal and individual misogyny.
So? It was act that sold well. They may or may not have believed it. Now they find it does not sell well, so they move onto other stuff.
  #71  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:33 AM
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I am looking to consume a celebs output, not marry them. I rarely care about their personal life.
I mean, good on you for being aloof and cynical enough to never care about anything. Weird flex, but okay.

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I would rather such views were not held at all. However, I am not stupid enough to think that they i) don't exits and that ii) surpressing them will somehow make them go away. They will lose out on their own merit.
This is literally the exact opposite of how these things work.

Alex Jones is basically completely fucking insane. At least, the ideas he spreads are. He's constantly wrong, but his fans don't care. And he was constantly growing, taking in more and more fans through social media and connections to, of all people, the goddamn president of the united states.

And then he pissed off the wrong people at major tech companies, and got banned from youtube, facebook and twitter.

And since then, it should come as no surprise that he's been on a pretty firm downward trend. His outreach is simply far, far smaller. It's not that he somehow "got too crazy" - he's been crazy the whole time. It's that he has fewer ways to reach out to people and grow his audience. So less people gain access to his ideas. Sure, he'll keep a hardcore base of followers, but that base will gradually shrink, and will be far harder to repopulate.

The currency in the marketplace of ideas is not accuracy. It's attention. The idea that "they will lose out on their own merit" is refuted simply by looking at the career path of people like Jones. Or the existence of Milo Yiannopolous. Or Donald Trump.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 01-30-2019 at 08:33 AM.
  #72  
Old 01-30-2019, 09:16 AM
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From watching Louis CK throughout the years, I can't help but think he's actually writing a long sketch detailing his long and ingratiating fall from grace. He's done similar things before. Before he got his FX show, he put out a sketch where he was considering taking up porn (link NSFW) because his career was in the toilet and he needed some kind of resurgence. I could see him assembling footage of his recent material in a documentary detailing his soul-diminishing downfall in painfully excruciating detail.

Similar situation with Asiz. His awkward and disastrous love life is a big part of his schtick. His scandal is practically script for the next season of Master of None.
  #73  
Old 01-30-2019, 09:48 AM
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I would rather such views were not held at all. However, I am not stupid enough to think that they i) don't exits and that ii) surpressing them will somehow make them go away. They will lose out on their own merit.
How exactly do you think that "such views" "lose out on their own merit"? How exactly do you think societal change happens? It doesn't just happen because individuals spontaneously change their minds because they've suddenly considered the merit of their views.


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Oh for fucks sake.
You sound like a bad parody of an internet woke individual.
I don't really get what you think the value of this kind of personal attack is. Do you think it will make me ashamed or embarrassed or rethink what I've said? What is an "internet woke individual" to you anyway? Is it someone insincere about their beliefs? How would you tell the difference between an insincere "internet woke individual" and someone sincerely talking about the things I'm talking about?

And you can do better than this, AK. You're an educated person, a lawyer. You live in society. You're not some adolescent in his parents' basement masturbating to cut scenes in God of War outraged about ceding your race and gender privileges to growing equality.

Do you not actually know real men and women who behave badly or who are affected by the bad behavior of others? Do you really think this is all a charade? Do you think that celebrities aren't real people and their behavior has no connection to the behavior of other people in society?

Do you think the women that Louis importuned actually didn't suffer any harm? Do you think that Aziz's date experienced no negative consequences whatsoever?

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So? It was act that sold well. They may or may not have believed it. Now they find it does not sell well, so they move onto other stuff.
Is everyone this cynical and opportunistic about their work? If you thought you could get away with being a human trafficker or hired assassin or extortionist, would you do it just because it sold well?

Last edited by Acsenray; 01-30-2019 at 09:49 AM.
  #74  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:10 PM
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Aziz update


It looks like Aziz is starting to talk about this publicly. And he’s not taking the “I did nothing wrong” line. Good for him.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/aziz-a...ation-on-stage

Quote:
Ansari explained that he waited so long to discuss what happened onstage because “it’s a terrifying thing to talk about,” adding “There were times I felt really upset and humiliated and embarrassed, and ultimately I just felt terrible this person felt this way. But you know, after a year, how I feel about it is, I hope it was a step forward. It made me think about a lot, and I hope I’ve become a better person.”

  #75  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:12 PM
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https://www.vulture.com/2019/02/aziz...ound-show.html

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Ansari recalled a conversation in which a friend told him it made him rethink every date he’s been on: “If that has made not just me but other guys think about this, and just be more thoughtful and aware and willing to go that extra mile, and make sure someone else is comfortable in that moment, that’s a good thing.”

“And I think it also just gave me perspective on my life,” Ansari added, pivoting to just how grateful he is for getting to perform comedy for a living. “There was a moment,” he said, “where I was scared that I’d never be able to do this again.”
  #76  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:16 PM
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Not just guys either. Cishet female here who has never been accused of abusive behavior, but the whole #MeToo thing has had me thinking over the past and wondering "All right I thought I was such a Cool Girl for taking the initiative sometimes, but was I always making sufficiently sure that the guy was okay with it? If a guy had done that to me, would that have seemed coercive?" If any of you were any of those guys and you weren't okay with it, just want to say: sorry dude, I shouldn't have done that.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:25 PM
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Not just guys either. Cishet female here who has never been accused of abusive behavior, but the whole #MeToo thing has had me thinking over the past and wondering "All right I thought I was such a Cool Girl for taking the initiative sometimes, but was I always making sufficiently sure that the guy was okay with it? If a guy had done that to me, would that have seemed coercive?" If any of you were any of those guys and you weren't okay with it, just want to say: sorry dude, I shouldn't have done that.
The MeToo movement is ensnaring the wrong people then. It is meant to ensnare serial sex predators who remorselessly use their power and wealth to coerce people against their will.

Ideally it shouldn't be about good people doing something awkward once or twice. Everyone has done that. I've done awkward things and had both men and women do awkward things to me.

Not only that, but I've done stuff with women where one women enjoyed it, and another woman got uncomfortable from the same thing. Obviously after you realize their uncomfortable you back off, but nobody is a mind reader.
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  #78  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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Actually, no, it's not just about a limited number of powerful men who misuse their power. It's also about all of us being vigilant about consent in our own lives. No one is going to get it right every time. What is important that we don't absolve ourselves of the responsibility to care about consent.

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Not only that, but I've done stuff with women where one women enjoyed it, and another woman got uncomfortable from the same thing. Obviously after you realize their uncomfortable you back off, but nobody is a mind reader.
Yes, you're not expected to be a mind reader. The solution to that is that you determine whether the other person wants something before you try it. That's actually the point.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:46 PM
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Ooh, I missed this thread when it was going around. So let me add a perspective I found interesting.

Louis CK's "edgy" work is nothing of the sort. It fails on a basic level to be shock humor, because nothing in it is "shocking" to the audience. The reason shock humor works (once you get past the age where you instinctively laugh at boners and farts) is, fundamentally, because it's the standup equivalent of removing the safety net on a high-wire act. You're risking poisoning your audience against you for the sake of the payoff. But CK's routine isn't that. It's bland. It's standard. It's shit that was done to death a decade ago on 4chan, and a decade before that by hacks like Dennis Miller. The kind of people who would be interested in seeing a Louis CK show at this point? They probably aren't going to be shocked or scandalized by a shitty attack helicopter joke. They're going to feel reassured in their shitty worldview.

This is the same problem this spate of right-wing or right-adjacent comedians talking about "triggering" their audience has. Nobody who would willingly listen to Dennis Miller (or, to put it another way, nobody who would rather listen to Dennis Miller than have their cock fed to a malfunctioning industrial shredder) is going to be "triggered" by any of his material. That kind of shitty, punching-down bigotry is rote and standard for the people listening. It's not shock humor. It's preaching to the choir. It's sitting there telling people, "Those things you already believe but sometimes aren't willing to say because other people don't want to associate with bigots? That's fine by me. You're fine when you do that." There's no risk in that shit. And it sure as hell isn't shock comedy.
Have you ever actually seen a Louis CK stand-up special? Or even a talk show appearance? Because your complaint bears no resemblance to his material whatsoever.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:24 PM
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Yes, you're not expected to be a mind reader. The solution to that is that you determine whether the other person wants something before you try it. That's actually the point.
I'm talking about things like talking to women at the grocery store for example. Some like it, some do not. So you just learn to take hints and back off if someone feels uncomfortable.

I had one girl get upset that I talked to her while she was at work. meanwhile I've had other women enjoy me doing that when they were at work.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:06 AM
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And ...?
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:24 AM
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Have you ever actually seen a Louis CK stand-up special? Or even a talk show appearance? Because your complaint bears no resemblance to his material whatsoever.
This is specifically that one leaked set.
  #83  
Old 02-13-2019, 11:24 AM
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I'm talking about things like talking to women at the grocery store for example. Some like it, some do not. So you just learn to take hints and back off if someone feels uncomfortable.

I had one girl get upset that I talked to her while she was at work. meanwhile I've had other women enjoy me doing that when they were at work.
Do you have any examples in which the MeToo movement has "ensared" people in this situation or "good people doing something awkward once or twice"?

It seems to me Aziz's situation is getting men to reconsider their behavior in a positive way:

https://slate.com/culture/2019/02/az...-response.html

Quote:
Ansari added that a friend of his said that the controversy made him reconsider past dates he had been on. “If that has made not just me but other guys think about this, and just be more thoughtful and aware and willing to go that extra mile, and make sure someone else is comfortable in that moment, that’s a good thing,” Ansari said.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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I'm talking about things like talking to women at the grocery store for example. Some like it, some do not. So you just learn to take hints and back off if someone feels uncomfortable.
Talking to a stranger in a grocery store is not outside the bounds of normal polite behavior (assuming you're just making normal polite conversation and not saying grosscreepy stuff right off the bat). Yes, if the stranger in the grocery store seems uncomfortable with you talking to them then you back off, but it wasn't "inappropriate behavior" per se.

That's not the kind of behavior I was talking about. Although I think it's kind of sweet that when somebody says they're a little worried about possibly having "tak[en] the initiative" in a way that might have "seemed coercive" without "making sufficiently sure that the [other person] was okay with it", your mind instantly jumps to... striking up a conversation with a stranger in a grocery store.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:12 PM
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Yes, you're not expected to be a mind reader. The solution to that is that you determine whether the other person wants something before you try it. That's actually the point.
And part of why you do that and why the new consciousness about consent matters is because doing so blows the cover of many people who WERE actively exploiting social attitudes to take advantage of people (in many cases without even realizing their actions were harmful or to what extent).

The simplest example I can offer is that, when I was in college just a decade an change ago, talking about getting girls drunk so they'd be more likely to say yes was common. It was just absolutely a thing. People would say, "hey, I hope there's a lot of beer at this party so the girls will all be drunk!" I'm under the impression that people on campus are much, much more aware that this isn't okay and that people too drunk to think clearly aren't really consenting.

When "good people" work harder to make their consent and intentions clear, it makes it harder for actual bad actors to operate and also avoids unintended harm.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:12 PM
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The simplest example I can offer is that, when I was in college just a decade an change ago, talking about getting girls drunk so they'd be more likely to say yes was common. It was just absolutely a thing. People would say, "hey, I hope there's a lot of beer at this party so the girls will all be drunk!" I'm under the impression that people on campus are much, much more aware that this isn't okay and that people too drunk to think clearly aren't really consenting.



This is the kind of ultra-feminist hobbyhorse the commonsense majority of people will just never agree with you about. People, male or female, get drunk as a social lubricant, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future even if you find that "problematic".

Sure, it's wrong to take advantage of someone who is passed out, or so blitzed (even if still sort of conscious) that they don't have a clear idea of what's going on around them. But if their non-debilitating buzz makes them more open to having sex when they might not have been into it stone cold sober, that doesn't mean they aren't capable of consenting. Jesus.

I mean, think this through. Do you really want to say that if a woman has any alcohol in her system, she now cannot have sex even if she really wants to, not until her BAC is back to 0.00? Fuck that. This is not sex-positive feminism you are describing.

BTW, I think what Louis CK did was wrong, and he should face consequences for it. But the reaction to him has been OTT, out of proportion to the offense committed.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:14 AM
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I love when internet commentators explain how funny works, especially those that are typically such sticks in the mud.

“Ooh he’s punching down that’s not funny”

Get a grip. Anything can be funny. You don’t put things into socioeconomic context before your instinct to laugh kicks in. If you do, I feel bad for you.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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I mean, think this through. Do you really want to say that if a woman has any alcohol in her system, she now cannot have sex even if she really wants to, not until her BAC is back to 0.00? Fuck that. This is not sex-positive feminism you are describing.
No, which is why I did not say that.

There IS a difference between "drinking as social lubricant" and "being so drunk you don't say no." Also, please understand that I'm not specifically advocating this viewpoint -- I'm relating that I'm aware there IS a sea change people are observing around consent. Your glib insistence that this is feminism run rampart that will never catch on is opposed by my experience.

When I was in college, again, people straight up would say, "If she gets drunk enough, she'll sleep with you."

Students of both genders at the school I work at recently organized an event to advocate and clarify the concept of willing and capable consent. This was NOT something that happened when I was in school -- and sex-positive feminism is part of that. We were told that good girls don't GIVE willing consent, so your job as a man was to convince her she REALLY wanted to, and if that took a few drinks or bargaining or always taking the lead even if she seemed nervous or not enthused, that's just how it worked.

That's not how it works now, and that's better for everybody involved.

And, that being said, there absolutely are folks who DO now take the position that alcohol and sex shouldn't mix, especially if there's any unfamiliar activity or boundary pushing involved. I consider that a stronger than necessary position, but I consider it a lot more valid than "if she didn't say no, it doesn't matter how many drinks she had."
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:12 PM
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I love when internet commentators explain how funny works, especially those that are typically such sticks in the mud.

“Ooh he’s punching down that’s not funny”

Get a grip. Anything can be funny. You don’t put things into socioeconomic context before your instinct to laugh kicks in. If you do, I feel bad for you.
That's true. Pretty much everyone points and laughs at your posts, for instance.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:02 PM
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This is the kind of ultra-feminist hobbyhorse the commonsense majority of people will just never agree with you about. People, male or female, get drunk as a social lubricant, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future even if you find that "problematic".

Sure, it's wrong to take advantage of someone who is passed out, or so blitzed (even if still sort of conscious) that they don't have a clear idea of what's going on around them. But if their non-debilitating buzz makes them more open to having sex when they might not have been into it stone cold sober, that doesn't mean they aren't capable of consenting. Jesus.

I mean, think this through. Do you really want to say that if a woman has any alcohol in her system, she now cannot have sex even if she really wants to, not until her BAC is back to 0.00? Fuck that. This is not sex-positive feminism you are describing.

BTW, I think what Louis CK did was wrong, and he should face consequences for it. But the reaction to him has been OTT, out of proportion to the offense committed.
There's more gray area than you like to admit. I remember people talking about "First date drinks"--drinks that have a LOT more alcohol in them than you can taste. The idea was that you get a girl drunker than she intended to get herself--not to the point that she's incoherent, but a lot more sloppy--and she's a lot more likely to "let" you do whatever. That's not rape, but it's deeply problematic--and the fact that people weren't even bothered by that, that guys would talk about doing this in front of me, this chick they hung out with, and none of us thought it was anything but clever, shows how much things have changed.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:12 PM
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Do you have any examples in which the MeToo movement has "ensared" people in this situation or "good people doing something awkward once or twice"?

It seems to me Aziz's situation is getting men to reconsider their behavior in a positive way:

https://slate.com/culture/2019/02/az...-response.html
Good for him. IMHO, the only he was guilty of was being bad in bed and an inconsiderate lover - and I think it’s kind of crappy to publicly shame someone over the intimate details of a consensual sexual encounter.

ETA: there was a basic lack of communication in the short-lived relationship. Aziz thought he was having a one night stand, Grace thought she was on her first date with her new celebrity boyfriend. No wonder it fell apart.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-14-2019 at 04:15 PM.
  #92  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:24 PM
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Nm

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  #93  
Old 02-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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ETA: there was a basic lack of communication in the short-lived relationship. Aziz thought he was having a one night stand, Grace thought she was on her first date with her new celebrity boyfriend. No wonder it fell apart.
I haven't followed anything since the initial story, but that was my take-away. They both had very different ideas of what was happening.

Perhaps I have missed other details, but that hardly seems #metoo worthy.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:23 PM
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I'm so old that I can remember when 'punching down' at Asian men was something restricted to Ivy League college admission professionals.
  #95  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:44 AM
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There's more gray area than you like to admit. I remember people talking about "First date drinks"--drinks that have a LOT more alcohol in them than you can taste. The idea was that you get a girl drunker than she intended to get herself--not to the point that she's incoherent, but a lot more sloppy--and she's a lot more likely to "let" you do whatever. That's not rape, but it's deeply problematic--and the fact that people weren't even bothered by that, that guys would talk about doing this in front of me, this chick they hung out with, and none of us thought it was anything but clever, shows how much things have changed.

I think it all depends on what "let" means. That could definitely be problematic, or it could be kind of "fuck it", like a spring break mentality, and I don't think that is problematic even if it can be embarrassing the next day.

The way you describe the drinks makes it sound pretty dastardly, but I think if you manage to serve someone a drink that is really strong without it seeming strong, and it's not a Long Island ice tea, then very impressive. Point being that I think you have to expect a drink to be strong, and women have to really go slow because they get drunk more easily. If it falls within the generally understood parameters of being an actual cocktail, with alcohol and mixer and no roofies, I don't think that's predatory. Maybe in the moral sense, but I keep saying that we have to have some things we look at and cluck our tongues or shake our heads about, but which we don't start bringing legal concepts like "consent" into them.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:46 AM
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Aziz seems to have turned out to be a profoundly disappointing person in private. But it should have been just that: private.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:03 AM
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I'm so old that I can remember when 'punching down' at Asian men was something restricted to Ivy League college admission professionals.
Everybody give it up for the comedy stylings of Sam Stone! Did this guy come out of nowhere, or what?
  #98  
Old 02-15-2019, 08:49 AM
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I think if you manage to serve someone a drink that is really strong without it seeming strong, and it's not a Long Island ice tea, then very impressive...
You think that serving someone a drink that is much stronger than normal, mixed so it's hard for them to notice, in the hope that they will then be more likely to have sex with you, is "impressive"?
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:38 AM
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Point being that I think you have to expect a drink to be strong, and women have to really go slow because they get drunk more easily. If it falls within the generally understood parameters of being an actual cocktail, with alcohol and mixer and no roofies, I don't think that's predatory. Maybe in the moral sense, but I keep saying that we have to have some things we look at and cluck our tongues or shake our heads about, but which we don't start bringing legal concepts like "consent" into them.
Oh, we "have to have some things" to which consent doesn't apply, do we? And why is that?

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  #100  
Old 02-15-2019, 09:48 AM
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I re-viewed all of Louis CK's specials.. Better than when I first heard them! Thanks for the reminder!
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