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  #151  
Old 02-28-2019, 08:00 PM
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Oh jeez. MBTI is based on a series of questions on a personality test. The idea that people with similar answers might have similar personalities is not "pseudoscience". I agree that some of the ways they explain it are questionable, but I think the scores empirically group people in interesting ways regardless of whether its proponents really understand what's happening inside the box.
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  #152  
Old 03-01-2019, 02:11 AM
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Apologies to the OP for a sidetrack, but why am I not surprised you'd put stock in MBTI. It's bollocks, shot to shit by studies time and again, resold as a pyramid scheme.

http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMW...velop/mbti.pdf
Quote:
The data indicate that there is no evidence of bimodal distributions for the MBTI.6 Instead, most people score between the two extremes. This means that although one person may score as an E, his or her test results may bevery similar to those of another person's, who scores as an I...


...In summary, it appears that the MBTI does not conform to many of the basic standards expected of psychological tests. Many very specific predictions about the MBTI have not been confirmed or have been proved wrong. There is no obvious evidence that there are 16 unique categories in which all people can be placed. There is no evidence that scores generated by the MBTI reflect the stable and unchanging personality traits that are claimed to be measured. Finally, there is no evidence that the MBTI measures anything of value

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/15/588194...st-meaningless

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the test was developed in the 1940s based on the totally untested theories of Carl Jung and is now thoroughly disregarded by the psychology community. Even Jung warned that his personality "types" were just rough tendencies he'd observed, rather than strict classifications. Several analyses have shown the test is totally ineffective at predicting people's success in various jobs, and that about half of the people who take it twice get different results each time...

...The Myers-Briggs is useful for one thing: entertainment. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking the test as a fun, interesting activity, like a BuzzFeed quiz.

But there is something wrong with CPP peddling the test as "reliable and valid, backed by ongoing global research and development investment." The company makes an estimated $20 million annually, with the Myers-Briggs as its flagship product. Among other things, it charges between $15 and $40 to each person who wants to take the test, and $1,700 to each person who wants to become a certified test administrator.
https://www.recruiter.com/i/critique...ator-critique/

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across a 5-week retest period, 50% of the participants received a different classification on one or more of the (MBTI) scales...

...Specifically, 83 percent of the differences among the students could not be accounted for by the MBTI. The results led the authors to the conclude that the factors found in the statistical analysis were inconsistent with the MBTI theory
Apologies again to the OP for this sidetrack.
  #153  
Old 03-01-2019, 05:13 AM
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This is not like the vague platitudes in horoscopes that anyone can relate with. I've looked at most of the other types, and none come remotely close to describing me as well as:


Quote:
Taking a certain pleasure in being the underdog, ENTPs enjoy the mental exercise found in questioning the prevailing mode of thought[...]
ENTP personalities love to brainstorm and think big, but they will avoid getting caught doing the "grunt work" at all costs.[...]

ENTPs’ capacity for debate can be a vexing one[...] This is further complicated by ENTPs’ unyielding honesty, as this type doesn’t mince words and cares little about being seen as sensitive or compassionate.[...]

[T]hey find that their quarrelsome fun burns many bridges, oftentimes inadvertently, as they plow through others’ thresholds for having their beliefs questioned and their feelings brushed aside.

But that's all just a coincidence, I suppose.
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  #154  
Old 03-01-2019, 06:29 AM
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This is not like the vague platitudes in horoscopes that anyone can relate with.
How so? I see nothing but vague platitudes in that quote.
  #155  
Old 03-01-2019, 07:24 AM
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Go ahead, find one of the other 15 types that describes a slacker "Debater" who relishes plunging into the fray as an underdog, heedless of how their "quarrelsome fun" may "burn bridges" in relentlessly challenging "the prevailing mode of thought".

Let's try one that has all the opposite letters as mine. It's all bullshit, according to you, so that ought to come just as close. Okay, so ISFJ...

ISFJs "can always be relied on to get the job done on time. ISFJs take their responsibilities personally, consistently going above and beyond, doing everything they can to exceed expectations and delight others, at work and at home."

Whoa, it's uncanny! Like looking into a mirror...if it's a magic mirror into Opposite World.

"The challenge for ISFJs is ensuring that what they do is noticed. They have a tendency to underplay their accomplishments"

LMAO

"They may never be truly comfortable in the spotlight, and may feel guilty taking due credit for team efforts"

That's me, always staying out of the limelight and letting others take credit ;-)
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  #156  
Old 03-01-2019, 07:37 AM
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I might be interested in a discussion of MBTI, but perhaps in another thread?
  #157  
Old 03-01-2019, 07:38 AM
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Sure, link me.
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  #158  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:46 AM
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I stumbled on this thread while searching for yet another thread in which Gary Kumquat misrepresented my views. Since the thread ended on a note of utter ignorance, a correction is in order, I think, even at this late date.

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Originally Posted by Gary Kumquat View Post
Apologies to the OP for a sidetrack, but why am I not surprised you'd put stock in MBTI. It's bollocks, shot to shit by studies time and again, resold as a pyramid scheme.
And Gary quotes from a page which has "The data indicate that there is no evidence of bimodal distributions for the MBTI.6 Instead, most people score between the two extremes. This means that although one person may score as an E, his or her test results may be very similar to those of another person's, who scores as an I..."

Bimodal? Whose requirement was that?
So: You're saying that the adjectives "tall" and "short" are useless, because most people are "average" and fall somewhere in between tall and short?

And you're unaware that many or most MB tests report numbers: if you're near the threshold between 'E' and 'I' you'll be so informed?

Okay.... I do feel better informed now about the quality of your views.
  #159  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:45 AM
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Let me give my own views on the MBTI. I was introduced to it decades ago by a girlfriend who was pursuing a Masters degree in a Psych field. If the "theory" had been "debunked" someone failed to inform her.

Don't the police use something like "WMC (White Male Caucasian)" as shorthand for describing a suspect? Maybe not PC, and some "whites" have pretty dark skin, but it's a convenient shorthand.

I pay little attention to MBTI ó I take the test on a whim once every 2 or 3 decades, and don't recall examining another's test results except for afore-mentioned girlfriend.

Just as some "whites" have darker skin than other "whites", of course there are some halfway between I and E, or halfway between J and P. (BTW, although I am INTp the p isn't strong. But I differentiate myself from many Dopers who are clearly INTJ ! ) If each binary choice were made ternary, there'd be 81 types instead of 16 ó unwieldly. (And the objection could still be raised: some people would be halfway between "I" and "Halfway" )

If people have made inflated claims about the utility of MBTI, take it up with them. I'd have completely forgotten about MBTI except that in a thread several years ago I found it interesting when we learned that a huge portion of Dopers were INTJ, despite that that type is rarish among the general population. (@ Gary Kumquat - Do you think that's coincidence?)

So: Is MBTI an important part of my life? I go for many years at a time without thinking of it once!
Is MBTI a pseudo-science to be lumped with Astrology? That's one of the stupidest and most bizarrely ignorant claims I've every heard in my life.
  #160  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:58 AM
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Something I would love to hear one of these guys say (though they of course would be able to make it funnier than I have):

When you're first breaking into show business, all you hear is "no." "You don't have what it takes;" "You're not what we're looking for;" "Don't call us, we'll call you." For years and years, just No after No after No. Some people hear it too many times and give up. Other people never stop hearing it, and keep trying anyway. And every now and then, maybe one time in a hundred thousand, you start to hear "Yes." And my god, you needed that Yes. And, if you're really lucky, you keep hearing "Yes," and eventually, all you hear is "Yes." And it's amazing. This is rewarding on a primal level, your reptile brain basking in a sea of dopamine, getting everything it wants. And maybe you get to the point where you forget that "No" was ever a valid answer, that it was ever even an option, and that little reptile brain begins to grow. And it grows and grows and gets stronger and stronger, and it whispers those self-serving little lies in your ear: You deserve this. You earned this. You're a T. rex now, and T. rex gets to do what he wants. And you have to fight that voice. You have to push back, you have to say "no, I'm in charge here, go back to the Cretaceous where you belong," because if you don't, that voice is going to let you do some terrible things. Not make you do them, and that's the worst part, because at the end of the day, that little reptile brain is a part of you. You can do that if you're strong and self-aware. I wasn't. And that's my fault.

Would it exonerate anybody? No. It's an explanation, not an excuse. But it would make me more willing to listen to what they have to say, because it would show a level of introspection that none of these assholes have seemed capable of so far.
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  #161  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:58 PM
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Something I would love to hear one of these guys say (though they of course would be able to make it funnier than I have):

When you're first breaking into show business, all you hear is "no." "You don't have what it takes;" "You're not what we're looking for;" "Don't call us, we'll call you." For years and years, just No after No after No. Some people hear it too many times and give up. Other people never stop hearing it, and keep trying anyway. And every now and then, maybe one time in a hundred thousand, you start to hear "Yes." And my god, you needed that Yes. And, if you're really lucky, you keep hearing "Yes," and eventually, all you hear is "Yes." And it's amazing. This is rewarding on a primal level, your reptile brain basking in a sea of dopamine, getting everything it wants. And maybe you get to the point where you forget that "No" was ever a valid answer, that it was ever even an option, and that little reptile brain begins to grow. And it grows and grows and gets stronger and stronger, and it whispers those self-serving little lies in your ear: You deserve this. You earned this. You're a T. rex now, and T. rex gets to do what he wants. And you have to fight that voice. You have to push back, you have to say "no, I'm in charge here, go back to the Cretaceous where you belong," because if you don't, that voice is going to let you do some terrible things. Not make you do them, and that's the worst part, because at the end of the day, that little reptile brain is a part of you. You can do that if you're strong and self-aware. I wasn't. And that's my fault.

Would it exonerate anybody? No. It's an explanation, not an excuse. But it would make me more willing to listen to what they have to say, because it would show a level of introspection that none of these assholes have seemed capable of so far.
It IS an excuse. It implies that he just got into a habit and sexually assaulting women was part of that. Never mind that he threatened them afterward and ruined their careers. Never mind that he admitted it.

How come the explanation that he's a predator who physically isolated his victims, picked victims who were much less powerful than him, employed a tactic that he knew he could use to argue intent later on, threatened them, and finally did in fact fuck up their careers before admitting it all isn't, well, the explanation? He's a predator. If it were a case of accidental conditioning, how come it never happened around men?
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  #162  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:01 PM
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I endorse the OP. I was a huge fan of Louis CK and my wife and I had seen him live 3 times or more. I thought his initial apology was not great, but still better than most, which isn't saying much. But now he seems to have devolved into self-pity, and perhaps much worse, at least based on his most recent jokes, seems to be flirting with right-wing nonsense, since those are probably the only assholes who seem to welcome abuse and abusers with open arms.
I'm done with him. He's a sleaze.

He can take his self pity and shove it up his ass, where his head already is.
  #163  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:05 PM
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Right-wing? LOL. Maybe he's a Russian agent? Either way, I got tickets for an upcoming show. It's too bad so many just go along with the wind.
  #164  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:20 PM
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But just think how much fun you'll have, surrounded by your fellow wind-breakers.
  #165  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:23 PM
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But just think how much fun you'll have, surrounded by your fellow wind-breakers.
You magnificent bastard.
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  #166  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:15 PM
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It IS an excuse. It implies that he just got into a habit and sexually assaulting women was part of that. Never mind that he threatened them afterward and ruined their careers. Never mind that he admitted it.

How come the explanation that he's a predator who physically isolated his victims, picked victims who were much less powerful than him, employed a tactic that he knew he could use to argue intent later on, threatened them, and finally did in fact fuck up their careers before admitting it all isn't, well, the explanation? He's a predator. If it were a case of accidental conditioning, how come it never happened around men?
In the case of Louis C.K., I don't think inability to handle fame-related temptations was at the root of his behavior. I get the impression he was really like this long before he achieved success and his notoriety ultimately only made many more people of aware of his behavior than if he remained an unknown run-of-the-mill sex offender. However, that's only one aspect of his personality that I find especially creepy. Because much of C.K.'s pre-scandal material dealt with the concerns and anxieties of middle-aged adults, he was relatable to his often middle-aged audience. (The fact he was a balding middle-aged schlub also helped in that regard.) Granted, he did throw in a few outrageous jokes and routines but that was to jolt the audience out of its empathetic rapport and remind them they were watching a no-holds-barred comedian. I don't know if his goal was to become some kind of "voice" for people in his demographic group but it did seem that way at times. Once the scandal broke, it became apparent to me he was a sociopath using humor to gain people's trust and get them to put down their defenses. I think if C.K. had not chosen to go into a "legit" field like comedy, he probably would've made a very good living as a con artist.
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  #167  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:29 PM
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But just think how much fun you'll have, surrounded by your fellow wind-breakers.
That was solid.
  #168  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:01 PM
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It IS an excuse. It implies that he just got into a habit and sexually assaulting women was part of that. Never mind that he threatened them afterward and ruined their careers. Never mind that he admitted it.

How come the explanation that he's a predator who physically isolated his victims, picked victims who were much less powerful than him, employed a tactic that he knew he could use to argue intent later on, threatened them, and finally did in fact fuck up their careers before admitting it all isn't, well, the explanation? He's a predator. If it were a case of accidental conditioning, how come it never happened around men?
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In the case of Louis C.K., I don't think inability to handle fame-related temptations was at the root of his behavior. I get the impression he was really like this long before he achieved success and his notoriety ultimately only made many more people of aware of his behavior than if he remained an unknown run-of-the-mill sex offender.
Responding to both of these: I may not have articulated my thoughts as clearly as I should have. I'm not trying to claim fame caused the behavior so much as enabled it (and I'm sure as hell not trying to defend it). I see it as a variation of the "what we do in the dark" idea - how do we behave when we stop fearing the consequences?
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  #169  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:21 PM
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Responding to both of these: I may not have articulated my thoughts as clearly as I should have. I'm not trying to claim fame caused the behavior so much as enabled it (and I'm sure as hell not trying to defend it). I see it as a variation of the "what we do in the dark" idea - how do we behave when we stop fearing the consequences?
Just to clarify my position a little more: some people - I really want it to be most, but I have no way of knowing that - just plain aren't going to become predators (or thieves, or murderers, or whatever). They may not have the inclination, or they may feel that their own gratification isn't worth hurting somebody else.

Some people just plain are. They'll get their jollies, consequences be damned.

And I think some people need rules to keep them in line. "I'd do this, but I'd go to jail if they caught me." And if those rules go away, or stop being enforced, then look out.

I don't know which of the latter two categories Louis CK falls into. Neither is good.
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Last edited by DannyBeans; 11-25-2019 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Typo
  #170  
Old 11-25-2019, 05:11 PM
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I think if C.K. had not chosen to go into a "legit" field like comedy, he probably would've made a very good living as a con artist.
Given that nothing about him seems ďslickĒ heíd be amazing. He comes across as an awkward schlub that youíd never suspect.
  #171  
Old 11-26-2019, 04:22 AM
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I stumbled on this thread while searching for yet another thread in which Gary Kumquat misrepresented my views.
U ok hun?
  #172  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:40 AM
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This would have be an okay joke if he had just left out the black people part.
Yes, because suggesting that black people are loyal andcreliable friends is... racist? Denigrating? Belittling? What the fuck.

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His jokes about the Parkland kids were terrible for a number of reasons, but mostly because Fox News pundits already beat him to the punch. Laura Ingraham et al. have already plucked that low-hanging fruit. Not saying the entire topic should be off-limits, but if you're going to go there, you had better do something really different and clever with it.
Right because suggesting that being present at a tragedy doesn't mystically embue you with profound insight and make you worth listenning to is both evil and wrong! Nazi, bigot, pedophile carnivore wrong!

For fuck sakes, you pestilential primate, saying "Not getting shot does not make you special in any way, in fact it makes you pretty fuckng normal." Is not only not offensice it is objectively and demonstrably true.

Last edited by Zeke N. Destroi; 11-26-2019 at 06:41 AM.
  #173  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:45 AM
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So, as long as itís not your sacred cows being poked being very offensive is just fine?
Well, yeah. Holding that opinion is a bedrock component of the culture here.

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  #174  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:51 AM
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Right because suggesting that being present at a tragedy doesn't mystically embue you with profound insight and make you worth listenning to is both evil and wrong! Nazi, bigot, pedophile carnivore wrong!
Really it's more "not new or funny or insightful when it was new, and also punching down". Y'know, "bad comedian" stuff.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:55 AM
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I offered that as one possible example of evidence that he was serious about trying to make up for his misdeeds. I'm not sure why that would be a weird or unusual assertion -- if a famous entertainer did something seriously morally wrong, then it seems reasonable that a former fan would urge him to demonstrate honest and humble contrition, which might take quite a while, before considering paying for his entertainment again.

It's not about "groveling apology" or "I'm totally woke" -- it's about demonstrating some sort of self-awareness about the bad things he's done, and why these actions were bad, and how they harmed people, and being sorry about it because of those things,..
No it is about the unremitting, unending self-flagellation (hee hee) that you masturbatory fuckwads insist is required to cleanse the blackened soul of all impurity and allow their grudging readmittance to the rarified humanity that you, and the other self-impressed woke-fucks, think you can lay claim to.
  #176  
Old 11-26-2019, 07:00 AM
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... I am not going to explain why pledging the majority of his earnings to charity in order to win your ticket purchase is over the top. That is obvious enough to rational people.
It's IIIandyIII you'd best explain.
  #177  
Old 11-26-2019, 07:22 AM
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No it is about the unremitting, unending self-flagellation (hee hee) that you masturbatory fuckwads insist is required to cleanse the blackened soul of all impurity and allow their grudging readmittance to the rarified humanity that you, and the other self-impressed woke-fucks, think you can lay claim to.
I commend you on your mind reading powers! Or consider this - maybe it's possible that you're not psychic, and we just disagree honestly but passionately on how we think about this kind of thing.

Just a thought. Our if you'd prefer to think I'm just an awful hypocrite, or whatever, feel free. Probably a lot easier than attempting real communication and engagement.
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  #178  
Old 11-26-2019, 07:27 AM
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Yes, because suggesting that black people are loyal andcreliable friends is... racist? Denigrating? Belittling? What the fuck.
Itís a stereotyping generalization, one that he doesnít offer support for, and one that doesnít add anything to the premise of the joke, and itís not funny.


Quote:
Right because suggesting that being present at a tragedy doesn't mystically embue you with profound insight and make you worth listenning to is both evil and wrong! Nazi, bigot, pedophile carnivore wrong!

For fuck sakes, you pestilential primate, saying "Not getting shot does not make you special in any way, in fact it makes you pretty fuckng normal." Is not only not offensice it is objectively and demonstrably true.
The idea that the only or most significant thing about a survivor of such an event is that the person avoided being shot is an idiotic and dangerous idea. The idea that such a person has no more significant to say about that event than anyone else on the world who happened to not get shot is an idiotic and dangerous idea. The idea that listening to people who have survived such an event is treating them as if they have mystical power is an idiotic and dangerous idea.

Civilization has spread and improved over millennia based in no little way on listening to people who have suffered and making changes based on that.
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  #179  
Old 11-26-2019, 08:05 AM
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But just think how much fun you'll have, surrounded by your fellow wind-breakers.
I've read this post three times and enjoyed it muchly each and every time.
  #180  
Old 11-26-2019, 12:31 PM
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I've read this post three times and enjoyed it muchly each and every time.
So the enjoyment is lingering?
  #181  
Old 11-26-2019, 01:29 PM
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For fuck sakes, you pestilential primate...
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Calling a black poster a "primate?"

That's going to be a warning for hate speech.
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  #182  
Old 11-26-2019, 04:22 PM
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Itís a stereotyping generalization, one that he doesnít offer support for, and one that doesnít add anything to the premise of the joke, and itís not funny.




The idea that the only or most significant thing about a survivor of such an event is that the person avoided being shot is an idiotic and dangerous idea. The idea that such a person has no more significant to say about that event than anyone else on the world who happened to not get shot is an idiotic and dangerous idea. The idea that listening to people who have survived such an event is treating them as if they have mystical power is an idiotic and dangerous idea.

Civilization has spread and improved over millennia based in no little way on listening to people who have suffered and making changes based on that.
Okay, I'll play along. Why is saying, "our guns laws are irrational and killing people! You need to quit with the thoughts and prayers shit and do something!" more true coming from someone whose school got shot up than from the countless people who have been saying it for decades?

Why is not being one of the random victims a badge of honour or heroism? What is meritorious about being lucky enough to be one of the vast unshot majority?
  #183  
Old 11-26-2019, 04:50 PM
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[Moderating]
Calling a black poster a "primate?"

That's going to be a warning for hate speech.
[/Moderating]
Just as a matter of interest, how would any poster know the actual ethnicity of any other poster?
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  #184  
Old 11-26-2019, 05:19 PM
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Just as a matter of interest, how would any poster know the actual ethnicity of any other poster?
Easy. Keep a spreadsheet of peopleís posts and results from their 23 and me tests. Also have on record the medical history of each poster. Furthermore, donít rely on any previously allowed or disallowed behavior as a guide or precedent. Do all that and you should be fine. Or just call those you disagree with, including the lady folk a ďcuntĒ and thatís cool as well.
  #185  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:30 PM
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Just as a matter of interest, how would any poster know the actual ethnicity of any other poster?
The "actual" as in factually documented ethnicity? Presumably they wouldn't, unless they happened to know the other poster IRL.

But plenty of posters here make allusions to their own (unverified) ethnicity. Off the top of my head I can think of a few posters who have at some point described themselves as white, others who have identified as African-American, South Asian, etc.

So if you use a racially loaded epithet to a poster who is known to identify as the ethnicity targeted by the epithet, yeah, I'd say that lays you open to a charge of deliberate hate speech. The fact that you can't know for sure whether the other poster is actually of that ethnicity in real life is not enough to get you off the hook.

Presumably you could argue that you had no idea the other poster identified as that ethnicity, and therefore you could not have been personally targeting them with the racially loaded epithet. But it doesn't sound to me like a very solid defense.
  #186  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:53 PM
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Presumably you could argue that you had no idea the other poster identified as that ethnicity, and therefore you could not have been personally targeting them with the racially loaded epithet. But it doesn't sound to me like a very solid defense.
Surely if you don't know you don't know, how much more solid could it be? I wouldn't have the slightest clue what ethnicity any poster is unless they'd made it clear specifically in the relevant series of posts, the same goes for gender or sexuality or pretty much any other attribute.
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  #187  
Old 11-26-2019, 06:58 PM
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Maybe - just spit-balling - one shouldn't use hate speech at all?
  #188  
Old 11-26-2019, 07:11 PM
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Maybe - just spit-balling - one shouldn't use hate speech at all?
What a novel concept!!!!!

And I agree. Want people treated equally? Then treat them equally. No double standards or bias.
  #189  
Old 11-26-2019, 07:25 PM
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Surely if you don't know you don't know, how much more solid could it be?
Well, you might have some trouble convincing the mods that you weren't actually aware of that information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble
I wouldn't have the slightest clue what ethnicity any poster is unless they'd made it clear specifically in the relevant series of posts, the same goes for gender or sexuality or pretty much any other attribute.
Fine by me, but we've only got your word for that. If you're being accused of targeting another poster with hate speech based on your awareness of their ethnicity or gender or sexuality etc., you have a certain amount of incentive to lie about that awareness.
  #190  
Old 11-27-2019, 02:40 AM
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Maybe - just spit-balling - one shouldn't use hate speech at all?
A nice idea but is an insult "hate speech" independent of target or originator?

Are there any circumstances where terms such as "monkey", "primate" "ape" "gorilla" can be used?
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  #191  
Old 11-27-2019, 03:01 AM
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Well, you might have some trouble convincing the mods that you weren't actually aware of that information.
I think there has to be a "reasonableness" test for anything like that. If the target of the insult has not made it clear in the immediate conversation then it doesn't seem reasonable to expect posters to know or remember. Why would they? how can they?

Quote:
Fine by me, but we've only got your word for that. If you're being accused of targeting another poster with hate speech based on your awareness of their ethnicity or gender or sexuality etc., you have a certain amount of incentive to lie about that awareness.
All we have on here is anyone's word for who they are, what they know and what their experience is.

Handing out warnings based on "you must have known that" carries with it a duty of reasonableness I think. I don't know the history of these two posters and perhaps the mods can indeed make that case. All I'm saying is that from what I read it seemed to come from no-where. I certainly had no idea of the various ethnicities involved and can't see where any reasonable person would. If that duty of reasonableness has been shown then fine.
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  #192  
Old 11-27-2019, 04:55 AM
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A nice idea but is an insult "hate speech" independent of target or originator?

Are there any circumstances where terms such as "monkey", "primate" "ape" "gorilla" can be used?
Thing is, unknown race doesn't mean "not black." There is a possibility the person is black, and thus using speech that would be hate speech to a black person is still ill advised. It hurts the same, either way.

You also put yourself in a difficult position if you have to argue you didn't know. Because that's exactly what someone would say if they were trying to get away with it. You're relying on people giving you the benefit of the doubt--something they may believe you do not (or no longer) merit.

I'd think you'd have a better leg to stand on if monstro had been remotely shy about her race. But she definitely hasn't been.

Finally, there's the apology principle. Zeke posted again, right after the Warning. He thus was made aware of the Warning at that point. (You'll get a notification, even if you don't scroll up.) Yet I see no public apology, and doubt he gave a private one. It's not even a matter of seeing if it seems sincere--it's just not there.

I don't know anyone who isn't racist who, after saying something perceived as racist, would not either immediately apologize or at least try to explain that racism was not their intent.
  #193  
Old 11-27-2019, 06:04 AM
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It's not a phrase I can ever see myself using, but I'm having a hard time identifying "pestilential primate" as hate speech. Largely because humans are, in fact, primates - so referring to someone as a primate is biologically accurate in a way that referring to someone as a "monkey" or "gorilla" is not (and therefore I would view the latter two as potentially hate speech, for sure). It didn't occur to me when I first read it that it was hate speech - it seemed to me just a colourful (no pun intended), alliterative insult.

Having said all that, I don't wish to defend the poster in question and I think the board will probably be better for their departure.

ETA: the last sentence of BigT's post above is on point here, though.

Last edited by Dead Cat; 11-27-2019 at 06:05 AM.
  #194  
Old 11-27-2019, 06:05 AM
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I'd think you'd have a better leg to stand on if monstro had been remotely shy about her race. But she definitely hasn't been.
Well I don't know what to say. I don't keep track of individual poster's names so I can honestly say that I don't know monstro is either black or a woman and the preceding posts that I saw didn't suggest either to me.

Maybe you take a deeper interest in such things but I think it is unreasonable to expect that I should know.
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  #195  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:15 AM
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Responding to both of these: I may not have articulated my thoughts as clearly as I should have. I'm not trying to claim fame caused the behavior so much as enabled it (and I'm sure as hell not trying to defend it). I see it as a variation of the "what we do in the dark" idea - how do we behave when we stop fearing the consequences?
Yeah, I've been thinking, and what if it's.....he got tired of consent? I think sometimes these guys are at first thrilled to have fans, then they get jaded, then they get bored with "yes"....I remember reading Tim Beneke's "Men on Rape", and there was a section on guys using hypotheticals to justify rape. "Well, what if the only thing to save the planet is rape?" Then there was, "What if she's a female Nazi concentration camp guard?" (That was an attempt to justify rape, period. If the woman was evil, it was okay.)


There's a trope that rich or famous or good-looking men "don't need to." In fact, I think they're the ones you have to watch, because they come to expect, then demand, then they get bored and decide to try shoplifting, so to speak, just like some stereotypical bored suburbanite.
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  #196  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:21 AM
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A nice idea but is an insult "hate speech" independent of target or originator?

Are there any circumstances where terms such as "monkey", "primate" "ape" "gorilla" can be used?
Only if you are at a zoo or discussing zoo mammals or discussing, you know, primates. Primates like monkeys are not native to North America, while gorillas and "apes" are associated---in popular culture----with Africa.
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  #197  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:37 AM
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Only if you are at a zoo or discussing zoo mammals or discussing, you know, primates. Primates like monkeys are not native to North America, while gorillas and "apes" are associated---in popular culture----with Africa.
humans are primates though surely? Why is North America relevant?
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  #198  
Old 11-27-2019, 08:43 AM
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Well I don't know what to say. I don't keep track of individual poster's names so I can honestly say that I don't know monstro is either black or a woman and the preceding posts that I saw didn't suggest either to me.

Maybe you take a deeper interest in such things but I think it is unreasonable to expect that I should know.
I insult lots of people and I don't worry about accidentally being racist about it. You probably shouldn't either.
  #199  
Old 11-27-2019, 09:39 AM
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humans are primates though surely? Why is north america relevant?
come on.
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  #200  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:35 AM
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come on.
I'm completely lost now. Why is North America relevant?
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