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  #5301  
Old 11-20-2019, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Max - Why do you think they haven't raised that question yet? They are literally throwing everything against the wall including batshit insane and already debunked conspiracy theories, but they haven't asked the one important question you think they need to?Do you think it's because they are dumb? Or maybe because they know damn well there was no legitimate investigation? What is the most logical reason you can think of that they have not asked this yet?
In Max S.’s defense, if they weren’t dumb they wouldn’t be Republicans.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 11-20-2019 at 09:54 PM.
  #5302  
Old 11-20-2019, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
To be fair, allowing your favorite commentators to get between the original sources and your brain is how a large percentage of the population had ended up where they are.
It's also the way the world has worked since the beginning of a multi-town sized society. There is no way any of you are paying full attention even if you have it on tv the entire time. I gotta assume y'all have a couple of other obligations through the day? It is impossible for the populace to absorb days and days of testimony while also, you know, keep society functioning.
  #5303  
Old 11-20-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
How do they think that's going to work, exactly? I mean, is there anyone else in the entire government who has the authority to withhold Congressionally-approved, tax-payer-funded aid to another nation other than a president? I've yet to hear any explanation for withholding the aid up to the point of the whistleblower's complaint, when it was suddenly released.

(I don't expect you to defend this on behalf of Fox "News," obviously. Just pointing out a glaring obstacle for Fox. Not that their viewers much care about ginormous inconsistencies.)
Well you know how it is. If you spend all yer time looking for plot holes, yer gonna mss all the good parts of the movie.
  #5304  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:19 PM
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Opinion | Gordon Sondland Leaves Us With No Other Option - The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/o...gtype=Homepage

Quote:
History will remember Wednesday as the day a United States ambassador testified under oath before Congress and laid out a clear, simple and damning case that President Trump abused the power of his office and committed bribery, an act for which the Constitution leaves but one outcome.

The evidence was already overwhelming, but now there can be no question about it: Ambassador Gordon Sondland’s testimony was the smoking gun.

...The facts are not meaningfully in dispute, because Mr. Sondland’s testimony corroborates the accounts of multiple strong and reliable witnesses.
....
All-righty then!
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  #5305  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MulderMuffin View Post
We're four hours in today, and we're haven't even gotten to member questions. I have things to do today, but I can't stop watching. The morning sessions are usually done by now. I wouldn't even mind if they weren't asking the same four questions over and over and over (exaggerating, but not by much).

If I started a drinking game to take a shot every time Nunes brought up the whistleblower, my liver would have moved to Paraguay by now in protest. Heck, I'M ready to move to Paraguay in protest.
Always good to spend most of your time within a few miles of your liver, I always say.
  #5306  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
It's also the way the world has worked since the beginning of a multi-town sized society. There is no way any of you are paying full attention even if you have it on tv the entire time. I gotta assume y'all have a couple of other obligations through the day? It is impossible for the populace to absorb days and days of testimony while also, you know, keep society functioning.
https://www.amazon.com/Speed-Reading.../dp/0470457449

My parents regularly suggest that I should watch so-and-so documentary.

Those documentaries are liable to be 90-120 minutes in length and, generally, cover material that I could find in a single article on the Wikipedia which I could likely read in 5-10 minutes at most. The documentary will almost always - by virtue of being a documentary - have some angle on the topic at hand for which the content has been selected and edited together. The Wikipedia is reasonably likely to be unbiased or at least contain a smattering of datum from competing editors.

If your primary source of information is audible, you can probably beat it handily by reading. And if your favorite pundits are writers, probably you can identify the content that you want to know about, inside a large text, and scoop it out, in about the same amount of time as reading an op-ed of it. Usually, what you want is just a few sentences or paragraphs. Op-eds take that and bloat it out to ten times the size with material that has no factual merit.

This isn't to say that you shouldn't read other people's thoughts on a text, nor choose good people to review, but relying on it solely is a path to madness.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-20-2019 at 10:46 PM.
  #5307  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Opinion | Gordon Sondland Leaves Us With No Other Option - The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/o...gtype=Homepage


All-righty then!
Once the Republicans in the Senate start making quiet shuffling movements, we can call the smoking gun. And, to be sure, that could happen - I'm sure he gave them a strong kick in the teeth at any rate - but I'd wait to see the actual movement before announcing a win.

For the moment, though, I would view Sondland's key gift being a new list of names - closer to the President - and an on-the-record note of the existence of certain documents and recordings.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-20-2019 at 10:50 PM.
  #5308  
Old 11-20-2019, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Re: Parnas and the company "Fraud Guarantee"

What's next for Republican con-men? Is someone in the future going to start a company designed to fleece Republican supporters out of their cash, and name it "We Are Stealing Your Money You Stupid Rubes"????
Reminds me of this.
  #5309  
Old 11-21-2019, 08:18 AM
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Poe's Law?
Nope. True believer.
  #5310  
Old 11-21-2019, 08:22 AM
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To be fair, allowing your favorite commentators to get between the original sources and your brain is how a large percentage of the population had ended up where they are.
Some of us pick commentators who don't lie.
  #5311  
Old 11-21-2019, 08:22 AM
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I ran into some friends last night who play in a bluegrass band. Discussing the day's events, I suggested the band begin practicing In The Jailhouse Now, you know, just in case.

Turns out they've played around with that song already, but will add it to their set list now.
  #5312  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:08 AM
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A very real possibility is that Trump gets impeached, is not removed by the Senate and is re-elected in 2020. Can you imagine how emboldened a Trump who got away with this would be in a second term? He would know that he really could shoot someone on fifth avenue and the minority party running the United States would let him get away with it.
  #5313  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:12 AM
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I think this may emerge as a key issue in the campaign: “Can you imagine a Trump presidency where he has nothing left to lose?”
  #5314  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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I think this may emerge as a key issue in the campaign: “Can you imagine a Trump presidency where he has nothing left to lose?”
Sounds like the making of a country song. I'm waiting for Nunes to lead his faithful in a rousing chant of "Hillary lied- people died- BENGHAZI!"

The voters should remember this well in 2020.
  #5315  
Old 11-21-2019, 10:42 AM
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Geoff Bennett, NBC News:
Quote:
Fiona Hill will tell Congress that domestic partisan politics have driven a “fictional alternative narrative” about Ukraine that is “misguided” and wrong, a source familiar tells NBC. Hill will also warn about the threat to the democracy posed by Moscow.
Josh Lederman, NBC News:
Quote:
Fiona Hill testifies that Putin and his underlings operate “like a super PAC,” pouring in money to divide Americans
Josh Dawsey, Washington Post:
Quote:
"This is exactly what the Russian government was hoping for ... that they would pit one side of our electorate against the other," Fiona Hill says, adding that the Russians just want Americans to question the legitimacy of any president & create chaos.
David Lauter, LA Times:
Quote:
"The goal of the Russians" is to put any U.S. president "under a cloud" by delegitimizing the presidency, itself, Fiona Hill says. Their goal is to "have everybody questioning" the system.
Jonathan Lemire, AP:
Quote:
“Thank God,” Putin told an economic forum in the Russian capital on Wednesday, “no one is accusing us of interfering in the U.S. elections anymore; now they’re accusing Ukraine.”
  #5316  
Old 11-21-2019, 10:53 AM
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Well, now I know that people from County Durham (like Fiona Hill) speak English with a “mid-vowel” e sound — something difficult for most other English speakers when they’re learning Spanish, Italian, or Portuguese.
  #5317  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:06 AM
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How did Russia manage to make Trump hold up security assistance in exchange for a sham investigation against Joe Biden? Amazing, the powers they hold...

Is that what she's saying here?
  #5318  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by John_Stamos'_Left_Ear View Post
Some of us pick commentators who don't lie.
a) Being told what to think is just as bad as being lied to.
b) Omission is a form of lying and one that occurs largely as a matter of what that individual finds bolsters their argument rather than as an intent to lie.
c) You can find articles of interviews between the media and Trump's DHS before the "child separations" issue was released where they are calmly discussing the implications of a mandatory criminal prosecution on illegal immigrants and how that would require that you separate the families since children aren't allowed in prison.

And then, there was an article that stated that the DHS had lost track of which kids belonged to which parents and, upon encountering that article, the readers, who had not picked up on the earlier news about the minutiae of what all implications there were of the mandatory prosecution policy, went, "What the hell?? They're separating children from their parents!!!?"

And then the media looked at the view counts on those articles and said, "Yes. Yes, they are. Separating children from their parents, that's their policy. We didn't know before, but gee do we now!"

Whereas, say, for example we had that time when the New York Times spent two years and massive labor looking through Trump's finances and they largely determined that the way Trump was able to buy Mar-A-Lago and his other holdings is, in essence, by liquidating the much larger fortune that his dad had built, after his death.

That article was too long, too boring, and buried the most important details midway through the article. Probably not intentionally - just journalists who were overly optimistic about the average reader's ability to read a long article - but, in general, that article was a flop and most people probably never read to the part where it actually said what it was trying to say.

As a side effect of that, your average person - even those on the left - is still mystified about how it can be that Trump can be such a "success" and how that must mean that he's smart and canny. But, no, "dying wealthy relative" is not a smart business strategy. That's called "luck".

Importantly, though, that article didn't get nearly as high a view count as, say, child separations.

So did others re-report the NYT, helping to boost the main message? Did they allude to the key details later, to ensure that everyone knew? Did they hammer on the topic thousands and thousands of times so that you couldn't help but know the truth?

Nope. Because they are a business and because journalists are people, too. The business is not interested in articles that don't sell and the journalists have a limited amount of time and don't know everything, they just know what the business tells them they should write about. If the business tells them to write about the "child separation policy" because it's getting maybe clicks, then the journalist jumps in, does two seconds of research to get what they need to support the story, and they crank out an article. They don't really think about it or go in-depth. And they plaster over earlier articles on the subject, which were more nuanced, so that you can't find them.

But they aren't asked to write about the fortune of Fred Trump, which appears to have been about 10X the size of Donald's. And so, no one knows that.

Journalism is a business. The business goes with the clicks and the clicks are not based on rationality. They're based on emotions, catchy headlines, ignorance, and impatience.

If the sources you read are keeping you entertained and happy... Well, they have the numbers they need to know what makes you entertained and happy. The media on the left and right are vastly different and that is, likely, less driven by management so much as its pushed a particular direction in reward for a particular presentation of the material that appeals to that reader base.
  #5319  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:14 AM
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How did Russia manage to make Trump hold up security assistance in exchange for a sham investigation against Joe Biden? Amazing, the powers they hold...

Is that what she's saying here?
Offhand, I'd say it's because Putin controls the White House.
  #5320  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:18 AM
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Make and manipulate into are different things. Ya think that the fiction of Ukraine interference and the stories about Hunter couldn’t be dusted for Russian fingerprints in a pushing it along fashion?

That mobile phone conversation was not on a secure line and who knows how many others of the irregular channel were not saying what? The Russians very like do know and have known more about our operational Ukraine policy and how to actually impact it than anyone in the state department does or did.

Last edited by DSeid; 11-21-2019 at 11:19 AM.
  #5321  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:37 AM
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Make and manipulate into are different things. Ya think that the fiction of Ukraine interference and the stories about Hunter couldn’t be dusted for Russian fingerprints in a pushing it along fashion?

That mobile phone conversation was not on a secure line and who knows how many others of the irregular channel were not saying what? The Russians very like do know and have known more about our operational Ukraine policy and how to actually impact it than anyone in the state department does or did.
It just seems like Dr. Hill is trying to deflect blame away from Trump in those quotes. "Don't you see? This [impeachment hearing] is exactly what they want! You're playing into their hands!" As though we should all ignore what Trump did for the good of the country.

But I'm not listening to the testimony today so I'm not sure if that's her tone or not. If Russia spun out some conspiracy theories and Trump bought into them, that becomes our problem whether we like it or not.

Last edited by steronz; 11-21-2019 at 11:38 AM.
  #5322  
Old 11-21-2019, 11:49 AM
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This is old but continues to be relevant so for those who haven't seen it: it's an Art Buchwald column from 1973 setting out standard responses from Nixon supporters arguing why Nixon shouldn't be investigated/impeached. Several of them sounds disturbingly familiar - for example, just substitute "Benghazi" for "Chappaquiddick".
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  #5323  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:03 PM
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This is old but continues to be relevant so for those who haven't seen it: it's an Art Buchwald column from 1973 setting out standard responses from Nixon supporters arguing why Nixon shouldn't be investigated/impeached. Several of them sounds disturbingly familiar - for example, just substitute "Benghazi" for "Chappaquiddick".
Wow. 1973? How some things have not changed.

#8 sounds like something our esteemed poster Max S might go with:

Quote:
8. Wait till all the facts come out.
#4 and #6 are pretty much the go-to strategy of Trump:

Quote:
4. The press is blowing the whole thing up.
6. The Democrats are sore because they lost the election.
This one is just a riff on the "this is boring, everyone is bored, ho hum defense:

Quote:
28. I’m sick and tired of hearing about Watergate and so is everyone else.
The classic Tu Quoque:

Quote:
34. If the Democrats had the money they would have done the same thing.

One thing has changed though. The Republicans in Senate today have no honor, no shame, no ethics, and some of them may well be in the pocket of the Russians. With Nixon, it took some ethical leaders of the Republican Party to stand up to Nixon and tell him to resign. We have no such ethical and moral people in this party today.
  #5324  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
a) Being told what to think is just as bad as being lied to.

b) Omission is a form of lying and one that occurs largely as a matter of what that individual finds bolsters their argument rather than as an intent to lie.

c) You can find articles of interviews between the media and Trump's DHS before the "child separations" issue was released where they are calmly discussing the implications of a mandatory criminal prosecution on illegal immigrants and how that would require that you separate the families since children aren't allowed in prison.



And then, there was an article that stated that the DHS had lost track of which kids belonged to which parents and, upon encountering that article, the readers, who had not picked up on the earlier news about the minutiae of what all implications there were of the mandatory prosecution policy, went, "What the hell?? They're separating children from their parents!!!?"



And then the media looked at the view counts on those articles and said, "Yes. Yes, they are. Separating children from their parents, that's their policy. We didn't know before, but gee do we now!"



Whereas, say, for example we had that time when the New York Times spent two years and massive labor looking through Trump's finances and they largely determined that the way Trump was able to buy Mar-A-Lago and his other holdings is, in essence, by liquidating the much larger fortune that his dad had built, after his death.



That article was too long, too boring, and buried the most important details midway through the article. Probably not intentionally - just journalists who were overly optimistic about the average reader's ability to read a long article - but, in general, that article was a flop and most people probably never read to the part where it actually said what it was trying to say.



As a side effect of that, your average person - even those on the left - is still mystified about how it can be that Trump can be such a "success" and how that must mean that he's smart and canny. But, no, "dying wealthy relative" is not a smart business strategy. That's called "luck".



Importantly, though, that article didn't get nearly as high a view count as, say, child separations.



So did others re-report the NYT, helping to boost the main message? Did they allude to the key details later, to ensure that everyone knew? Did they hammer on the topic thousands and thousands of times so that you couldn't help but know the truth?



Nope. Because they are a business and because journalists are people, too. The business is not interested in articles that don't sell and the journalists have a limited amount of time and don't know everything, they just know what the business tells them they should write about. If the business tells them to write about the "child separation policy" because it's getting maybe clicks, then the journalist jumps in, does two seconds of research to get what they need to support the story, and they crank out an article. They don't really think about it or go in-depth. And they plaster over earlier articles on the subject, which were more nuanced, so that you can't find them.



But they aren't asked to write about the fortune of Fred Trump, which appears to have been about 10X the size of Donald's. And so, no one knows that.



Journalism is a business. The business goes with the clicks and the clicks are not based on rationality. They're based on emotions, catchy headlines, ignorance, and impatience.



If the sources you read are keeping you entertained and happy... Well, they have the numbers they need to know what makes you entertained and happy. The media on the left and right are vastly different and that is, likely, less driven by management so much as its pushed a particular direction in reward for a particular presentation of the material that appeals to that reader base.
Nah, fuck that. You learn what sources you can trust - and verify that you can trust them.

Believing sources doesn't make you brainwashed if the sources are verifiably trustworthy. It makes you educated.

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  #5325  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:13 PM
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It just seems like Dr. Hill is trying to deflect blame away from Trump in those quotes. "Don't you see? This [impeachment hearing] is exactly what they want! You're playing into their hands!" As though we should all ignore what Trump did for the good of the country.

But I'm not listening to the testimony today so I'm not sure if that's her tone or not. If Russia spun out some conspiracy theories and Trump bought into them, that becomes our problem whether we like it or not.
My bold.

I did listen to part of her testimony and she's not saying, "YOU [Congress] are playing into their hands [with this hearing]," IMHO she's saying, "Trump is such a fucking idiot that HE played right into Putin's hands and the resulting chaos and divisiveness is exactly what Putin wanted." IOW Putin played the soon-to-be-ex like a fucking Stradivarius.
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  #5326  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:17 PM
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My bold.

I did listen to part of her testimony and she's not saying, "YOU [Congress] are playing into their hands [with this hearing]," IMHO she's saying, "Trump is such a fucking idiot that HE played right into Putin's hands and the resulting chaos and divisiveness is exactly what Putin wanted." IOW Putin played the soon-to-be-ex like a fucking Stradivarius.
Well that makes me feel better, I guess.
  #5327  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:48 PM
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Somewhat related news from Israel:


AP reports, bolding mine:
Quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will be indicted on bribery, fraud and breach of trust charges Thursday, the Israeli Justice Ministry confirmed, according to the Associated Press.

Allegations against Netanyahu include suspicions that he accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars of champagne and cigars from billionaire friends, offered to trade favors with a newspaper publisher, and used his influence to help a wealthy telecom magnate in exchange for favorable coverage on a popular news site.

Netanyahu has called the allegations part of a witch hunt, lashing out against the media, police, prosecutors and the justice system.
  #5328  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:49 PM
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"In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests." - Fiona Hill

Last edited by Lance Turbo; 11-21-2019 at 12:51 PM.
  #5329  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:59 PM
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"In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests." - Fiona Hill


Yeah, the horse is not just out of the barn on that one already, he's over the fence, down the road, and drinking beer at the pub.
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  #5330  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:03 PM
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I’m not able to follow the testimony today but I’m curious about how Nunes, Jordan and the other GOP Trumpists have reacted to Dr. Hill’s testimony. Have they questioned her yet or is that coming later? I’m curious what the reaction was to her calling BS on all the conspiracy theories.
  #5331  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:23 PM
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I’m not able to follow the testimony today but I’m curious about how Nunes, Jordan and the other GOP Trumpists have reacted to Dr. Hill’s testimony. Have they questioned her yet or is that coming later? I’m curious what the reaction was to her calling BS on all the conspiracy theories.
I'm a few minutes behind, I paused it to take care of some things.

Nunes didn't make his usual snarky comments about fake congratulating them or commiserating with them about being given a starting role in the farce after their secret auditions when questioning began. (He may have during his opening remarks. I wasn't paying close attention because he is a tool.) Thank gods. That was old the first time he did it. He did spend his time asking about the freaking Steele dossier. About whether they knew Chalupa. Nothing at all about the matter at hand.
  #5332  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
"In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests." - Fiona Hill
Aha! That's where we've got you! Devin Nunes keeps saying 'Russia Hoax', therefore it is a hoax!'
  #5333  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:31 PM
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How did Russia manage to make Trump hold up security assistance in exchange for a sham investigation against Joe Biden? Amazing, the powers they hold...

Is that what she's saying here?
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
Well that makes me feel better, I guess.
I won’t be able to watch this week, I’m living without TV and internet ( except on my phone) this week. But I read every word of her closed door testimony and that’s EXACTLY what she is saying. And EXACTLY what I’ve been saying.

This was engineered by Russia. The Ukrainian conspiracy theory and the documents Rudy had been waving around are Russian disinformation. Fruman and Parnas are Russian agents.

The Russia / Ukraine war is serious high stakes endeavor and the energy security of Western Europe is at stake. Getting the US to waiver in their support of Ukraine is a key foreign policy goal of Russia. People don’t think of Russia as a petrostate, but it is the worlds second largest oil exporter (behind Saudi Arabia) and the largest natural gas exporter.


It’s about so much more than that phone call. One of the goals of the Trump/Giuliani scheme was to replace the board of directors at Naftogaz, another Ukrainian gas company. This change was being pushed by Rudy Giuliani and the two Russian agents.

This is where the story is, I think. Because US foreign policy actively encourages Ukrainian companies to put Westerners on their boards, it’s part of the effort to clean up corruption by strengthening corporate governance. If Trump and Giuliani were looking to subvert that by plotting to put “friends of Putin” of the board, that might be a high crime. Not bribery though. The other one.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 11-21-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  #5334  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:52 PM
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How did Russia manage to make Trump hold up security assistance in exchange for a sham investigation against Joe Biden? Amazing, the powers they hold...

Is that what she's saying here?
It's been clear from the beginning that Individual 1 works for Putin.
  #5335  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:58 PM
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So Dr. Hill just told Castor that the Republican narrative that she said that Colonel Vindman was unfit, is not true.

But I didn't like that she testified as fact things that she doesn't know:
"Doctor Hill, do you know who financed the Steele Dossier?"
"Well, I didn't know till your staffers told me."
"And who is that?"
"The DNC".
So no mention of Ted Cruz's campaign. And then Nunes said, "We've established that the Democrats financed the Steele Dossier ..."
  #5336  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:58 PM
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Good lord, does Gym Jordan always talk with his caps lock on?
  #5337  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:02 PM
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Good lord, does Gym Jordan always talk with his caps lock on?
As I mentioned above, he needs to switch to decaf.
  #5338  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:05 PM
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I'm at work and had my attention on some data. Was that Jim Jordan that Schiff kept telling to shut his pie hole?
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:07 PM
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I'm at work and had my attention on some data. Was that Jim Jordan that Schiff kept telling to shut his pie hole?
Yes.
  #5340  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:30 PM
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As I mentioned above, he needs to switch to decaf.
I'm inclined to believe that caffeine is probably not the principal ingredient that you'd find in his bloodstream, if you ran a comprehensive drug test on him.
  #5341  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:46 PM
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I'm inclined to believe that caffeine is probably not the principal ingredient that you'd find in his bloodstream, if you ran a comprehensive drug test on him.
Impotent rage with a dash of locker room shower runoff?
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  #5342  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:52 PM
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The support for impeaching Trump just nosedived, by the way:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

It's been on a general decline for a while now.

As said, the general public has an average of two weeks of memory and passion. One you're past that, you're pardoned and in the clear again.

Welcome to the modern age of real-time polling.

Minus the ability to power through an investigation, bypassing all legal requirements of due process, appeals, etc. any investigation will become background noise and any politician who is willing to look at the numbers rather than the headlines is immune to everything except the Feds.

Trump is also immune to the Feds.
  #5343  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:59 PM
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Impotent rage with a dash of locker room shower runoff?
I was thinking more like cocaine or amphetamines.
  #5344  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:06 PM
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I was thinking more like cocaine or amphetamines.
Yeah. I was trying to be funny. Trying anyway.
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  #5345  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:09 PM
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The support for impeaching Trump just nosedived, by the way:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

It's been on a general decline for a while now.
Well, that’s depressing.
  #5346  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:12 PM
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It didn't "nosedive" -- there was a single poll, maybe an outlier, that made the average lower by a point or two.
  #5347  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:14 PM
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And the results from at least one poll are missing.
  #5348  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
The support for impeaching Trump just nosedived, by the way:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

It's been on a general decline for a while now.

As said, the general public has an average of two weeks of memory and passion. One you're past that, you're pardoned and in the clear again.

Welcome to the modern age of real-time polling.

Minus the ability to power through an investigation, bypassing all legal requirements of due process, appeals, etc. any investigation will become background noise and any politician who is willing to look at the numbers rather than the headlines is immune to everything except the Feds.

Trump is also immune to the Feds.
When were the people polled? Were any of the polls conducted this week?
  #5349  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:17 PM
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I'll state for the record that I've found the hearings to be compelling, but I think there are a number of us here who have suspected that what we, the members of SDMB, see, and the average 'Merikun sees are probably two different things.

The polls are increasingly showing that this might be the case:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...g-independents

Quote:
The latest national poll from Emerson University finds 45 percent oppose impeaching President Trump, against 43 percent who support it. That’s a 6-point swing in support from October, when 48 percent of voters supported impeachment and only 44 percent opposed.

More importantly, the poll shows more independents now oppose impeachment than support it, a significant change from Emerson's polling in October. The new poll found 49 percent oppose impeachment compared to 34 percent who support it. In October, 48 percent of independents supported impeachment, against 39 percent who opposed.
I don't necessarily think Trump is really that popular with independents, but by going on offense, the Democrats have made themselves look like the partisans. Again, not saying that's how I see it, but I think it's a reasonable inference to make based on the testimony and the polling data.

I've also suspected that there's a simmering distrust and resentment among white working class independents of highly educated civil servants with degrees from Georgetown, Harvard, and Yale. It's that age-old "You think yer better 'n me?!" factor at work. It matters little or none what they actually say; the testimony doesn't seem to be sticking to Trump. Instead, when they see the spectacle play out on TV, it just reminds the average person how disconnected they are from the process.

I don't think the Democrats are going to get much mileage out of impeachment. The most important witness will be the economy in 2020. That's it. That's how we judge presidents now. They can be as corrupt as they want. They can enrich themselves as much as they want. They can sell out vital national interests as much as they want. They can bankrupt social security and medicare. Nobody in this God damned country will know the difference.

Last edited by asahi; 11-21-2019 at 03:18 PM.
  #5350  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:30 PM
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Sadly, I’m pretty sure you’re right, asahi. Well put.
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