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  #801  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
The obvious response is 'he's setting up an insanity defense.'

But seriously, he knows Trump will throw him under the bus without a second thought. If Trump believes he can save himself by claiming 'it was all Rudy, it was all his idea, he made me say those things, he was free-lancing, I never told him to extort the Ukraine president, it was all Rudy,' then of course he will do so.

Giuliani knows this. He's going to be flailing pretty manically until this is settled, one way or another.
IANAL so please, someone correct me if I'm wrong: if Rudy isn't Trump's lawyer, there's no claim of attorney-client privilege, is there?
  #802  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:44 PM
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I think he just went bonkers over time. There’s some Trump sycophants who are in it for real, some that are putting on an act to maintain political power, and a few who just went bonkers. Rudy is not mentally healthy.
And many that will never admit that they got conned by one of the worst conmen ever.

And an overlap with those that won't admit they got conned "At least he's a racist".
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  #803  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I can’t keep up with this thread, so apologies if this has already been posted.

If you have ever seen “The Godfather”, this is priceless: https://twitter.com/larrynoble_dc/st...667652608?s=21
Wonderful — grazie.
  #804  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:54 PM
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And many that will never admit that they got conned by one of the worst conmen ever.

And an overlap with those that won't admit they got conned "At least he's a racist".
My family are all Trump supporters, and I thought that this event would surely bring them out of it. I thought to some extent that they were pretending. Nope. They are still all in. This is a Biden/deep state coup on the alpha male Trump. Trump didn't do anything that beta male Obama and evil Hillary didn't do first, and also Biden now.

I genuinely underestimated and thought that they didn't really believe the stuff they've been saying. But, the 24/7 Foxnews in their houses has affected their brains. I was one of these people once, and I know how I talked myself into these same opinions, and I know it was nothing short of a personal epiphany that brought me out of it or I would otherwise be wearing a MAGA hat today.
  #805  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post

I genuinely underestimated and thought that they didn't really believe the stuff they've been saying. But, the 24/7 Foxnews in their houses has affected their brains. I was one of these people once, and I know how I talked myself into these same opinions, and I know it was nothing short of a personal epiphany that brought me out of it or I would otherwise be wearing a MAGA hat today.
I'm with you completely. I was raised extremely conservative, started my adult life extremely conservative, and even voted for two different people named Bush (hanging my head in shame). However, I only voted for the second Bush the first go-round. That period was my learning/turning point. I'm hoping this period can be a learning/turning point for plenty others.
  #806  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
My family are all Trump supporters, and I thought that this event would surely bring them out of it. I thought to some extent that they were pretending. Nope. They are still all in. This is a Biden/deep state coup on the alpha male Trump. Trump didn't do anything that beta male Obama and evil Hillary didn't do first, and also Biden now.

I genuinely underestimated and thought that they didn't really believe the stuff they've been saying. But, the 24/7 Foxnews in their houses has affected their brains. I was one of these people once, and I know how I talked myself into these same opinions, and I know it was nothing short of a personal epiphany that brought me out of it or I would otherwise be wearing a MAGA hat today.
My condolences.

I spent a lot of my formative years in central Ill. Right wing as it comes. My mother got us away after her divorce from my father. I visited back a few times, and my take was that they felt "This is what my daddy told me, and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me". Translation - Don't Think for yourself.

Parts of my Wife's family are Trump supporters. Some big time. But they live 1000 miles away. I think I've seen some change in their support of Trump. A BIL took down his Trump/Pence Banner (but that was at a birthday party). And a niece has concerns, and I think has dumped Trump.

Gives me a glimmer of hope.
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  #807  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
My family are all Trump supporters, and I thought that this event would surely bring them out of it. I thought to some extent that they were pretending. Nope. They are still all in. This is a Biden/deep state coup on the alpha male Trump. Trump didn't do anything that beta male Obama and evil Hillary didn't do first, and also Biden now.

I genuinely underestimated and thought that they didn't really believe the stuff they've been saying. But, the 24/7 Foxnews in their houses has affected their brains. I was one of these people once, and I know how I talked myself into these same opinions, and I know it was nothing short of a personal epiphany that brought me out of it or I would otherwise be wearing a MAGA hat today.
What was your epiphany and how did it come about, if I may ask? Your story might be instructive on how to get others to see the light.
  #808  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:12 PM
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My thoughts exactly.

Also, don't worry about convincing your family at this moment*. Worry about convincing your R Senators and Reps. Call them. Frequently.

*Rumors have the trial around late November, just in time for Thanksgiving dinners with mixed-political families. You can discuss it then.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-26-2019 at 09:13 PM.
  #809  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:21 PM
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I'm with you completely. I was raised extremely conservative, started my adult life extremely conservative, and even voted for two different people named Bush (hanging my head in shame). However, I only voted for the second Bush the first go-round. That period was my learning/turning point. I'm hoping this period can be a learning/turning point for plenty others.
For me it happened ten years ago. I finally appreciated the naked Republican hypocrisy1, ignorance2, and intolerance3.

1 - e.g. 'keep the government out of our lives' but mandate invasive personal medical exams to women seeking abortion OR 'keep the government out of health care but prosecute docs who even broach gun safety with their patients'

2 - e.g. evolution; climate change

3 - e.g. gay marriage; utter absence of empathy in general (to anyone who's different from them)

Last edited by KarlGauss; 09-26-2019 at 09:23 PM.
  #810  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:22 PM
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I know you are supposed to call a doctor is an erection lasts longer than four hours, but I think in this instance it's completely justified.
  #811  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
My family are all Trump supporters, and I thought that this event would surely bring them out of it. I thought to some extent that they were pretending. Nope. They are still all in. This is a Biden/deep state coup on the alpha male Trump. Trump didn't do anything that beta male Obama and evil Hillary didn't do first, and also Biden now.

I genuinely underestimated and thought that they didn't really believe the stuff they've been saying. But, the 24/7 Foxnews in their houses has affected their brains. I was one of these people once, and I know how I talked myself into these same opinions, and I know it was nothing short of a personal epiphany that brought me out of it or I would otherwise be wearing a MAGA hat today.
This is why I think that describing Trump as a cult leader is most accurate. He forces people to abandon reason in order to support him; then, if they ever quit supporting him, they have to admit that they abandoned reason, and also have to face pretty severe charges of apostasy from the true believers. The social cost of admitting error is just too great.
  #812  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:28 PM
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I can’t keep up with this thread, so apologies if this has already been posted.

If you have ever seen “The Godfather”, this is priceless: https://twitter.com/larrynoble_dc/st...667652608?s=21
I can't keep up either, but Trevor Noah had a piece last night about "quid pro quo" and acting shady. Skip to about 5:30 for the bit about the sopranos.

https://youtu.be/ETAX_P8HNNY

Last edited by raventhief; 09-26-2019 at 09:28 PM.
  #813  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:47 PM
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I can’t keep up with this thread, so apologies if this has already been posted.

If you have ever seen “The Godfather”, this is priceless: https://twitter.com/larrynoble_dc/st...667652608?s=21
I was thinking, "Make him an offer he can't refuse."
  #814  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:50 PM
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I can’t keep up with this thread, so apologies if this has already been posted.

If you have ever seen “The Godfather”, this is priceless: https://twitter.com/larrynoble_dc/st...667652608?s=21
The video by itself for those who dot't want to bother with Twitter: https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/EFV5gPSXUAELp0u.mp4.
  #815  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:07 PM
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The video by itself for those who dot't want to bother with Twitter: https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/EFV5gPSXUAELp0u.mp4.
How about a highlight for those who don't want to bother with a video.
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  #816  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:12 PM
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How about a highlight for those who don't want to bother with a video.
SPOILER:
It's a scene from the Godfather with actual dialogue from the call memo as subtitles. We are almost ready to but more javelins...I would like to ask a favor though....

Mine was a scene from the sopranos, showing the menacing mob guys subtly making their point, and then dubbed with a goofy voice explicitly threatening and calling it "quid pro quo."
  #817  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:12 PM
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How about a highlight for those who don't want to bother with a video.
It's dialogue from the memo overlayed onto a "friendly chat" scene from the Godfather.
  #818  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:18 PM
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Moderating


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You aren't familiar with Ditka, are you? The response will be "Well, that's one opinion. Every law enforcement agency in the Western world believes that Shokin was corrupt as fuck, and some guy on Breitbart feels otherwise. Only a partisan extremist would jump to conclusions about which is more likely to be correct!"
Let's let posters submit their own opinions and not try to speak for them.

[ /Moderating ]

Last edited by tomndebb; 09-26-2019 at 10:18 PM.
  #819  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:26 PM
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I sense insufficient fear here. Who believes that Tramp will fade away softly? Who thinks he won't do his absolute damndest to preserve himself? How far do you fear he can go? Damn far, I fear.

I fear his issuing launch orders. I fear, maybe more, an officer replying, "Can't do that, sir." Which would be a coup. Sure, global nuclear devastation would be worse, but are those the ultimate options? Or will we get through the near future nicely, peacefully? How?

Last edited by RioRico; 09-26-2019 at 10:27 PM.
  #820  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
I was thinking, "Make him an offer he can't refuse."
I at this comment from Twitter:

"Disgusting to compare this gangster to the president.

Don Vito loved his family, adhered to a strict code of honor, and had at least some connection to reality."
  #821  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:14 PM
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A friend of mine in Ukraine shared a meme from Ukrainian social media. It shows Zelensky in a wig and blue dress and reads: "Monica Zelensky. Available for hire to bring impeachment against any U.S. President."

I've been searching for this image all over teh intarwebz and can't find it; could you link to it please?
  #822  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:20 PM
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What was your epiphany and how did it come about, if I may ask? Your story might be instructive on how to get others to see the light.
Two things happened around the same time. I started graduate school to become a scientist, and saw that the Republican party didn't believe in evolution. This wasn't an opinion issue, it was a fact issue and my party was wrong on the fact.

The second was I married a woman who grew up poor and non-white and yet had accomplished so much. I grew up lower middle class and racist, but I still thought I had earned everything because I had worked hard in school and gotten good grades. But, when I saw how my wife had to do so much more than I did just to break even to where I started, I realized that while I didn't have it great and could be proud of my accomplishments, she had grown up with so, so much less. Her accomplishments, though equivalent to mine, were so much more impressive.

I started recognizing that my opinions were just Republican opinions and not my own, and I was a total hypocrite. I was opposed to legalizing weed, but I smoked weed. I was strongly opposed to gun control, but I had never held a gun in my life and frankly didn't give a shit about them. I was opposed to abortion, but when my girlfriend had a pregnancy scare, I had no problem with the idea of bringing her to get one.

Growing up I actually told my parents that I thought I was adopted and Donald Trump was my real dad. My Trump supporting mom brings that up constantly to this day.
  #823  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:22 PM
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I know you are supposed to call a doctor is an erection lasts longer than four hours, but I think in this instance it's completely justified.
Congress is adjourning tomorrow until October 21st. Seriously, they are, after these two days' events.

There, better?
  #824  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:46 PM
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Democrats can say that Trump is corrupt as hell, and the public believes that he is. But they assume a false equivalency.
There's no false equivalency. All politicians are corrupt, driven by their desire for power over other humans, greed, and ambition. These motivations are what drive them to seek office, and it's both foolish and disingenuous to claim that your side is any purer or more righteous than the opposition. Anyone who sinks to the position of candidate for the Presidency is already rotten, and an associate of even worse persons and organizations; they'd never get that far if they weren't.

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Thanks to people like Oliver Stone, in the eyes of far too many, American government is inherently nothing but total shit, totally bereft of good actors, and they're all equally bad or nearly so.
American government, and all government, is "inherently nothing but total shit, totally bereft of good actors", and they are "all equally bad or nearly so". Every POTA has a truckload of shady and dishonest dealings behind him, and each of them has (metaphorical, mostly) blood on his hands right up to the armpits.

And asahi, I don't need that sanctimonious hypocrite Oliver Stone to tell me that all those who would rule are corrupt, authoritarian pieces of shit; I've had my eyes opened to that for most of my adult life -- unlike you, who (for all your lefter-than-thou posing and screeching) betray your attachment to rule and rulers while you denigrate those who'd strike all that shit down.

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Dictator time.
Aahh, yes, and now the mask comes off. Tell me, asahi, who do you like for dictator?
  #825  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:51 PM
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I'm not asahi but I like Buttigieg.
  #826  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:55 PM
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For those who may not be up to speed on when impeaching a president is appropriate, he's a helpful tip from Lindsey Graham: "You don't even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this Constitutional republic if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role. Impeachment is about cleansing the office; impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office."

Wait, that was back in 1999 when the president was Bill Clinton. This is what Graham said yesterday, "To impeach any president over a phone call like this would be insane!".

The shameless hypocrisy is downright comical.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...r-ebof-vpx.cnn
  #827  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:55 PM
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Two things happened around the same time. I started graduate school to become a scientist, and saw that the Republican party didn't believe in evolution. This wasn't an opinion issue, it was a fact issue and my party was wrong on the fact.

The second was I married a woman who grew up poor and non-white and yet had accomplished so much. I grew up lower middle class and racist, but I still thought I had earned everything because I had worked hard in school and gotten good grades. But, when I saw how my wife had to do so much more than I did just to break even to where I started, I realized that while I didn't have it great and could be proud of my accomplishments, she had grown up with so, so much less. Her accomplishments, though equivalent to mine, were so much more impressive.

I started recognizing that my opinions were just Republican opinions and not my own, and I was a total hypocrite. I was opposed to legalizing weed, but I smoked weed. I was strongly opposed to gun control, but I had never held a gun in my life and frankly didn't give a shit about them. I was opposed to abortion, but when my girlfriend had a pregnancy scare, I had no problem with the idea of bringing her to get one.

Growing up I actually told my parents that I thought I was adopted and Donald Trump was my real dad. My Trump supporting mom brings that up constantly to this day.
Thank you for your story. I know people with similar stories who have not recognized the disparity between their beliefs and their lives.
But that Trump/father thing...man that's just creepy. I don't blame your mom.
  #828  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:12 AM
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I'm not asahi but I like Buttigieg.

Ask yourself, is America truly ready for its first openly gay dictator?
  #829  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:26 AM
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I just heard on the 538 podcast that a new Surveymonkey poll finds that only 30% of Americans have heard anything at all about Ukraine. WTF, America?


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How about a highlight for those who don't want to bother with a video.

There’s really no point. That’s like asking someone to summarize a GIF. And why would you ask someone else to expend effort explaining it to you when you can’t be bothered to look at it? It’s like 20 seconds long.


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Wonderful — grazie.

Prego.


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Originally Posted by raventhief View Post
I can’t keep up either, but Trevor Noah had a piece last night about "quid pro quo" and acting shady. Skip to about 5:30 for the bit about the sopranos.

https://youtu.be/ETAX_P8HNNY

LOL: “That man is not actually being friendly to that other man.”

I think Noah actually gives up too much ground there though. There was something much less oblique about Trump’s conversation.


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I think he just went bonkers over time. There’s some Trump sycophants who are in it for real, some that are putting on an act to maintain political power, and a few who just went bonkers. Rudy is not mentally healthy.

You know who makes me cringe even more? Lindsey Graham. He stood up to Trump at one time, he was McCain‘s best friend, and Trump used to rake him over the coals. Now he is such a toady, it beggars belief. I can understand (if not endorse) his discontinuing any opposition to Trump, but basic playing it safe in the GOP does not require the level of sniveling bootlicking he serves up to someone who has treated him so poorly in the past.
  #830  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:30 AM
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Lindsey Graham is the Ted Cruz of KellyAnne Conways.
  #831  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:33 AM
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I sense insufficient fear here. Who believes that Tramp will fade away softly? Who thinks he won't do his absolute damndest to preserve himself? How far do you fear he can go? Damn far, I fear.

I fear his issuing launch orders. I fear, maybe more, an officer replying, "Can't do that, sir." Which would be a coup. Sure, global nuclear devastation would be worse, but are those the ultimate options? Or will we get through the near future nicely, peacefully? How?
I won't go so far as to suggest nuke devastation, but it's worth pointing out that there's an entire white house with skin in the game, meaning that there's a cabal that desires its survival.

People who wondered why I was so outrageously pessimistic now (hopefully) understand that a Constitution is just a piece of paper, and that the survival of said law of the land depends on a value system...which doesn't exist anymore.

The Constitution, the Republic...are in a state of decay.
  #832  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:48 AM
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I have a little more faith in the military than to think they will just shoot off nukes in every direction because President Dipshit tells them to. I’m not interested in an argument about whether he has the technical statutory authority to do so. I’m talking about just the reality and gravity of something like that.

If that’s a coup, so be it.
  #833  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:15 AM
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I'm not asahi but I like Buttigieg.
Marianne Williamson will become Supreme Leader. All those who oppose her holistic vision of love will be mindfully arranged into mass graves.
  #834  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:24 AM
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Lindsey Graham is the Ted Cruz of KellyAnne Conways.
Well, that's certainly an interesting way of putting it!

Of course, maybe Graham is a tender snowflake who considered that Bill Clinton getting a blowjob in the Oval Office so demeaned the office that it required impeachment in the interests of "restoring honor and integrity to the office". Whereas all Trump ever did -- I mean, besides obstructing justice and extorting a foreign leader for personal political gain and then trying to cover it up, and besides lying constantly to everyone about everything -- was have sex with a porn star and then had his "fixer" illegally pay her with campaign funds so she wouldn't blab. So obviously he has honor and integrity coming out the wazoo, no problem there, and so he has Lindsey's full support.
  #835  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:49 AM
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Marianne Williamson will become Supreme Leader. All those who oppose her holistic vision of love will be mindfully arranged into mass graves.

I love this.
  #836  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:52 AM
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I have a little more faith in the military than to think they will just shoot off nukes in every direction because President Dipshit tells them to. I’m not interested in an argument about whether he has the technical statutory authority to do so. I’m talking about just the reality and gravity of something like that.

If that’s a coup, so be it.
Yes, that's a coup d'ètat. Is it the inevitable endgame? Is it how the American experiment ends? He won't be 25th out. He won't be impeached, tried, convicted, and removed anytime soon, not before he can wreak immense damage. Will commissioned officers explicitly disobey direct orders from the CiC? Does our future depend on mutiny?

He may suffer a serious ailment. He may resign on condition of immunity. He may flee to Riyadh for refuge. He may mysteriously vanish. Or he may reveal that his presidential game is all a plot, cooked up with his old pals the Clintons, to totally destroy the GOP, exposing his supporters as Putin's puppets. THEN the treason trials can begin. But I doubt it.
  #837  
Old 09-27-2019, 06:20 AM
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Congress is adjourning tomorrow until October 21st. Seriously, they are, after these two days' events.

There, better?
Holy crap, are they all hoping to give this a chance to die down or something? Because...that's what's going to happen.

Last edited by bobot; 09-27-2019 at 06:21 AM.
  #838  
Old 09-27-2019, 06:35 AM
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Congress is adjourning tomorrow until October 21st. Seriously, they are, after these two days' events.

There, better?
Do you have a cite for this? I’m not really doubting you, I’d just like to see this fact on some kind of context or explanation.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:14 AM
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Do you have a cite for this? I’m not really doubting you, I’d just like to see this fact on some kind of context or explanation.
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/2019_schedule.htm

It’s apparently a scheduled “state work” period. Not a Boris type of thing. Or a whoosh.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:18 AM
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Yes, that's a coup d'ètat. Is it the inevitable endgame? Is it how the American experiment ends? He won't be 25th out. He won't be impeached, tried, convicted, and removed anytime soon, not before he can wreak immense damage. Will commissioned officers explicitly disobey direct orders from the CiC? Does our future depend on mutiny?



He may suffer a serious ailment. He may resign on condition of immunity. He may flee to Riyadh for refuge. He may mysteriously vanish. Or he may reveal that his presidential game is all a plot, cooked up with his old pals the Clintons, to totally destroy the GOP, exposing his supporters as Putin's puppets. THEN the treason trials can begin. But I doubt it.
Any officer has the duty to disobey an unlawful order. Their oath is to defend the Constitution, not whichever was is sitting in the Oval Office.
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  #841  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:20 AM
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Do you have a cite for this? I’m not really doubting you, I’d just like to see this fact on some kind of context or explanation.
It looks like they won’t be in session again after today until after Columbus Day. My sense is that it’s routine and largely because of the upcoming Jewish holidays.

http://www.klgates.com/files/Publica...alendar-06.pdf
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:28 AM
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In what way would the president launching a nuclear strike be an unlawful decision?

An evil one of course. One that if assessed as for no actual national security cause one that should be refused to be implemented. But how unlawful? The law gives the president that power of decision as a sole decision maker. By law he has that power.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:29 AM
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Okay. I guess the process (investigations, subpoenas, and such) can move forward regardless, right? And, Congress can always reconvene sooner than currently scheduled, if necessary.

Maybe this is a good thing — if nothing else, to let the public’s awareness of what’s going on catch up with the facts. That “only 30% of Americans have heard about anything unusual lately involving Ukraine” poll was astounding.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 09-27-2019 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
It looks like they won’t be in session again after today until after Columbus Day. My sense is that it’s routine and largely because of the upcoming Jewish holidays.

http://www.klgates.com/files/Publica...alendar-06.pdf
It’s routine but not Jewish holiday caused. They just have lots of built in time off often used to press the flesh back home. Throughout the year.
  #845  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:40 AM
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Okay. I guess the process (investigations, subpoenas, and such) can move forward regardless, right? And, Congress can always reconvene sooner than currently scheduled, if necessary.

Maybe this is a good thing — if nothing else, to let the public’s awareness of what’s going on catch up with the facts. That “only 30% of Americans have heard about anything unusual lately involving Ukraine” poll was astounding.
I think it may be a good thing that they’re all going to be in their home districts for the next few weeks.

And if there are any moderate Republicans still, this is the time for them to step up and let their representatives know that they think Trump’s behavior is outrageous and should be condemned. If public opinion starts to turn, the representatives will start to defect.

I think Nancy Pelosi SHOULD make a deal with Republicans. The deal should be “you get Trump to step down before the end of the year and we’ll leave Pence alone. If you can’t we’ll impeach them all.” Then Nancy really WON’T be Speaker of the House anymore.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 09-27-2019 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 07:55 AM
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It's really disappointing. I'm not familiar with Jewish holidays, or with how long this break is, or what it's for, or why it HAS to be taken, but it's a terrible time for it. Anyone who felt let down or worse after the Mueller report was allowed to fizzle, had better prepare themselves for the upcoming crash and burn. Dropping the ball and watching Trump pick it up is really getting old.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:23 AM
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I saw an interesting example on Twitter of what looks like the bargaining stage of grief from a rank and file Republican. It was a reply to a tweet from David French. French, for those not aware, is a prominent conservative and evangelical Christian writer. He was formerly an attorney who pushed an extremely conservative agenda in arguing before federal courts. But he is honest and clear-eyed about Trump’s moral failings.

French concluded a thread with the following tweet:

https://twitter.com/davidafrench/sta...053724160?s=21
Quote:
The sequence is plain. Trump wants Ukraine to be "reciprocal." Zelensky raises his nation's defense needs, and Trump raises his investigation demands, including the request that Ukraine look into Joe and Hunter Biden. This is completely unacceptable. /end
So @repub9989 mounts the following stirring defense of the president:

Quote:
it might be unacceptable but it si not a high crime or misdemeanor
[sic]

So the best this Republican voter can offer in reply is that Trump may be acting unacceptably but it’s not quite so unacceptable as to be impeachable. What a rallying cry!

I do actually hope this is a transitional stage to acceptance. Something like “Trump had the right message but he was a very flawed messenger.” (I don’t believe his message is or was good, of course, but if people like this can find their way to that place, we might actually rid ourselves of this presidential menace.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
In what way would the president launching a nuclear strike be an unlawful decision?

An evil one of course. One that if assessed as for no actual national security cause one that should be refused to be implemented. But how unlawful? The law gives the president that power of decision as a sole decision maker. By law he has that power.

Not if it’s a war crime. Which it certainly would be if he told them to target Denmark or wherever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Okay. I guess the process (investigations, subpoenas, and such) can move forward regardless, right? And, Congress can always reconvene sooner than currently scheduled, if necessary.

Maybe this is a good thing — if nothing else, to let the public’s awareness of what’s going on catch up with the facts. That “only 30% of Americans have heard about anything unusual lately involving Ukraine” poll was astounding.

Right? We keep hearing that Americans are paying extra close attention to politics this year, but that poll finding certainly doesn’t support this idea, unless they just meant some sort of horse race aspect (or healthcare etc.).

Anecdotally, my 19-year-old son is (I thought) a super politics junkie and he was waxing effusive about that 16-year-old Scandinavian girl who is a climate activist, but he did not know what I was talking about last night when I referenced the Ukraine transcript. I just don’t get it.

Also semi-anecdotally, David Brooks wrote a column yesterday saying that he went and talked to about 30 voters somewhere in the heartland (Iowa, maybe?). He said only one mentioned Ukraine or impeachment, and that was another journalist.

I know American voters are notoriously bad about paying attention to foreign affairs unless our troops are being killed in a war somewhere. But if this actually holds up, we are well and truly fucked as a country. This is arguably the biggest American news story of the past 15 years, and one of the biggest events in American political history. If people are just shrugging about it or somehow not even learning about it? I have no words.
  #848  
Old 09-27-2019, 08:25 AM
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And the last time you communicated with your Senators and Reps was when, Slacker?

Also, David Brooks is a conservative, and conservatives lie.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-27-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:36 AM
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Gosh, let me see if I can remember so far back…

Oh yeah, now it’s coming to me. That would be six days ago, Saturday the 21st, when I emailed Colin Peterson to urge him to support impeachment and noted that as of a couple days earlier I had felt it would be premature to do so.

What point were you trying to make there, anyway? Do you think I say my piece here and on Twitter etc. but I’m somehow reticent to express it to my elected representatives? Where would you get that idea?
  #850  
Old 09-27-2019, 08:58 AM
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I sure hope the Republicans can find the time to read this document. Seems strange that they haven't yet.
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