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  #3351  
Old 10-27-2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
All this talk of Trump's genius recently as his administration seeks to equate the Executive with the Law, is reminiscent of the Fuhrer Principle (Führerprinzip). Believing in Hitler's unique genius made it easier for Germans to accept his word as supreme in all cases.
And we all know how well that worked out for them!
  #3352  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:06 AM
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Posts like this make me wish I had the authority to bestow MacArthur genius grants.
I would gladly do it, but I would want a cut.

Last edited by elucidator; 10-27-2019 at 01:06 AM.
  #3353  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:49 AM
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I'll have to stop you there, because a court doesn't issue a final order without first hearing objections from the other side.

~Max
Yes, and? Of course there will be arguments on both sides.

I have yet to hear any argument that would mean they could disobey the subpoena. And I think the possibility of a winning argument on that is exceedingly slim.
  #3354  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:33 PM
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House is readying an impeachment resolution for a vote as early as this week.
  #3355  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:38 PM
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Ed O'Keefe, CBS News:
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JUST IN: @SpeakerPelosi says the House will vote Thursday to formalize the impeachment inquiry that "establishes the procedure" for the ongoing investigation. Letter to colleagues obtained by @RebeccaRKaplan:
  #3356  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:42 PM
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Nancy Pelosi: "We are taking this step to eliminate any doubt as to whether the Trump Administration may withold documents, prevent witness testimony, disregard duly authorized subpoenas, or continue obstructing the House of Representatives."
  #3357  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:08 PM
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I dig it. Take away all Republican excuses.
  #3358  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:11 PM
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Bold prediction: Republicans will continue to obstruct.
  #3359  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:12 PM
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I dig it. Take away all Republican excuses.
Eh, they'll just come up with five or six more. And run through them all.

By Friday we'll have a tweet saying "The vote was improper! Sloppy Nancy and Liddle' Schiff didn't dot an I in the memo!" Or something*.







* I don't speak Trump well.
  #3360  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:29 PM
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Bold prediction: Republicans will continue to obstruct.
Yup. My money's on that.

What entity has the authority to enforce these subpoenas? Not that it matters, but it's a point of interest.
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  #3361  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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I'm actually disappointed that they decided to take a vote. They're basically caving in to the Pubbies. Maybe there is precedent for taking a vote, but there have been so few impeachment inquiries that it's certainly not a strong precedent. Plus, pretty much everything that this President does is unprecedented (see what I did there?) that doing something unprecedented is the way to go.
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  #3362  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:56 PM
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So I wonder how long this “I don’t know if I can testify or not! Constitutional immunity!!!111” lawsuit will take? Rhetorical question but a discouraging development.
  #3363  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:59 PM
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Eh, they'll just come up with five or six more. And run through them all.

By Friday we'll have a tweet saying "The vote was improper! Sloppy Nancy and Liddle' Schiff didn't dot an I in the memo!" Or something*.







* I don't speak Trump well.
Based on the font I default to, I read that as "didn't dot an (lower case) L."

Which would mean you actually speak Trump pretty well.
  #3364  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:48 PM
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Naw, if this vote was done for other impeachments, follow the already-established forms and do it.
  #3365  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Running with Scissors View Post
I'm actually disappointed that they decided to take a vote. They're basically caving in to the Pubbies. Maybe there is precedent for taking a vote, but there have been so few impeachment inquiries that it's certainly not a strong precedent. Plus, pretty much everything that this President does is unprecedented (see what I did there?) that doing something unprecedented is the way to go.
I'll withhold judgment. Pelosi wouldn't order this vote unless she was confident that the votes are there and that it won't be close, I assume, based on her track record.
  #3366  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:39 PM
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I'll withhold judgment. Pelosi wouldn't order this vote unless she was confident that the votes are there and that it won't be close, I assume, based on her track record.
And if Trump and his cronies continue to avoid subpoenas and releasing evidence, I think the house will have a more solid foundation for additional obstruction charges.

Not that they should need it. But Trump admitted to obstruction on national TV, and nothing happened.
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  #3367  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:00 PM
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Naw, if this vote was done for other impeachments, follow the already-established forms and do it.
I said that like a week ago. Not doing a vote seemed to just be handing the Republicans a weapon. But maybe she wanted some killer testimony in the bag first, before letting this be a more open affair.

Last edited by CarnalK; 10-28-2019 at 08:02 PM.
  #3368  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:11 PM
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And here is a random commenter from the Twitter thread that Walken linked to about the resolution giving the Republicans what they wanted. This take should come as a surprise to, well, apparently nobody here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Idiot on Twitter
It’s an impeachment resolution that will lay out the details regarding the next steps in the impeachment inquiry. So in other words, their going to vote on a resolution on how to gather new information for an impeachment inquiry.Changing the rules as they go forward. #BS #Corrupt
  #3369  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:28 PM
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So in other words, their going to vote ...
Some Idiot, for sure.
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  #3370  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:53 PM
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The challenge in impeaching Trump is that the Republicans are really good at playing the victim card, and they're good at obfuscation.
  #3371  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:58 PM
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Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-28-2019 at 08:59 PM.
  #3372  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:07 PM
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Lt Col Motherfucking Vindman! He was on the call. Iraqi War veteran. Coming forth out of sense of duty. All good stuff.

Army Officer on White House Staff Reported Concerns on Ukraine Dealings

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 10-28-2019 at 09:08 PM.
  #3373  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:11 PM
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That link didn't seem to work for me...Here is what is hopefully a better one.
  #3374  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:13 PM
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I said that like a week ago. Not doing a vote seemed to just be handing the Republicans a weapon. But maybe she wanted some killer testimony in the bag first, before letting this be a more open affair.
There is some element of Lucy-holding-the-football here. Republicans were all geared up to kick a field goal on the "BUT THE PROCESS" ball. Pelosi calmly held that in place for them until they'd committed to the kick, then pulled it out of the way. They're left looking kinda lame.
  #3375  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:26 PM
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There is some element of Lucy-holding-the-football here. Republicans were all geared up to kick a field goal on the "BUT THE PROCESS" ball. Pelosi calmly held that in place for them until they'd committed to the kick, then pulled it out of the way. They're left looking kinda lame.
They may look lame, but they keep putting the pressure on the Democrats. I don't think they're trying to stall impeachment; they want the impeachment process to speed up so that it can go to a senate vote before something else comes out - and they know something else eventually will.
  #3376  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:30 PM
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That link didn't seem to work for me...Here is what is hopefully a better one.
Lt. Col. Vindman's statements are clear and unequivocal. They leave no room for doubt about what was going on and why.

In a normal world, that he served in Iraq and was wounded there should give him real credibility. Tomorrow Trump will tweet that he was a "bad officer, a rotten apple folks".

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-28-2019 at 09:30 PM.
  #3377  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:37 PM
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I like my soldiers to be able to avoid getting wounded.
  #3378  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Lt. Col. Vindman's statements are clear and unequivocal. They leave no room for doubt about what was going on and why.

In a normal world, that he served in Iraq and was wounded there should give him real credibility. Tomorrow Trump will tweet that he was a "bad officer, a rotten apple folks".
Don't forget "secret Democrat scum."
  #3379  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:42 PM
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They may look lame, but they keep putting the pressure on the Democrats. I don't think they're trying to stall impeachment; they want the impeachment process to speed up so that it can go to a senate vote before something else comes out - and they know something else eventually will.
And they want it to be over and done with well before the election.
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  #3380  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:52 PM
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That link didn't seem to work for me...Here is what is hopefully a better one.
Note to self: when you suck at posting, check link.
  #3381  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:02 PM
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That link didn't seem to work for me...Here is what is hopefully a better one.
“I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen...”
Well golly, he's about to find out that Republicans in America don't agree with him. Because Trump. And fuck ethics and country. And, of course, reasons.
And by the way, look over here, No Quid Pro Quo!
  #3382  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:29 PM
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From Nancy Pelosi's letter to the Democrats of the House:

Quote:
This resolution establishes the procedure for hearings that are open to the American people, authorizes the disclosure of deposition transcripts, outlines procedures to transfer evidence to the Judiciary Committee as it considers potential articles of impeachment, and sets forth due process rights for the President and his Counsel.
Does this mean that massive by next week or so we'll be seeing some of the transcripts of the depositions already taken and perhaps some open hearings on CSPAN?
  #3383  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:38 PM
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Vindman testimony contradicts Sondland in big ways, leaving Sondland open to accusations of perjury - thread from Manu Raju, CNN.
  #3384  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:47 PM
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Kate Brannen, Just Security:
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Ambassador Sondland testified that neither Fiona Hill, nor John Bolton nor anyone else on the NSC staff ever raised any misgivings about what was going on. https://www.npr.org/2019/10/17/77071...nt-to-congress

Vindman's testimony directly contradicts that.

He says he told Sondland in July that his statements about getting Ukraine to investigate the Bidens were inappropriate and Fiona Hill echoed the same concerns.
  #3385  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:12 AM
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Intel Committee member Rep. Joaquin Castro:
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Based on all the testimony so far, I believe that Ambassador Gordon Sondland committed perjury.
  #3386  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:55 AM
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Colonel Vindman's testimony will be very, very hard to dismiss, I believe, if that article is accurate.
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  #3387  
Old 10-29-2019, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Lt. Col. Vindman's statements are clear and unequivocal. They leave no room for doubt about what was going on and why.

In a normal world, that he served in Iraq and was wounded there should give him real credibility. Tomorrow Trump will tweet that he was a "bad officer, a rotten apple folks".
Or a Ukrainian double agent.

This is all depressingly predictable.
  #3388  
Old 10-29-2019, 06:15 AM
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Colonel Vindman's testimony will be very, very hard to dismiss, I believe, if that article is accurate.
..."You underestimate the power of the Dark Side."
  #3389  
Old 10-29-2019, 08:57 AM
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Pelosi has the votes and Trump will be impeached at a time of her choosing. But, Trump can only be removed from office at a time of the Republicans choosing.

So, what's the best strategy for the Republican party?

1. Support Trump and hope for the best, which is - four more years of a vindicated Trump with a mandate to rule as he pleases.

2. Obstruct everything and blame the Dems but remove Trump from office by one vote.

The prize is not worth the effort.
  #3390  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:06 AM
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Colonel Vindman's testimony will be very, very hard to dismiss, I believe, if that article is accurate.
The goal posts are going to move is all. Inch by inch. Mulvaney pretty much already put it at, "It was a quid pro quo but who cares? How the president runs his foreign policy is his prerogative. This stuff happens all the time."


That career civil servants find all of this profoundly disturbing, alarming, irregular, ill-advised, poorly executed, and dangerous to our national security interests is of no concern to anyone who trusts Trump without question.
  #3391  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:22 AM
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The Democrats announced that the Intel committee will be in charge of public hearings. This locks out Trump's biggest cheerleaders in the GOP (Jordan, Meadows and Zeldin) and puts the committee with the fewest number of GOP members in charge at 9. And 2 of those 9 (Turner and Hurd) have already expressed concern with Trump's actions.

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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
The goal posts are going to move is all. Inch by inch. Mulvaney pretty much already put it at, "It was a quid pro quo but who cares? How the president runs his foreign policy is his prerogative. This stuff happens all the time."


That career civil servants find all of this profoundly disturbing, alarming, irregular, ill-advised, poorly executed, and dangerous to our national security interests is of no concern to anyone who trusts Trump without question.
The right wing talking point seems to be that Vindman was born in Ukraine and therefore his loyalty to the US is questionable. Multiple people have brought that up now on various news shows, so apparently this was the coordinated best response they could come up with.

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 10-29-2019 at 09:27 AM.
  #3392  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:57 AM
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Vindman arrives in full uniform.
  #3393  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:59 AM
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I mean, he's active duty, what else would he show up to work in?
  #3394  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:14 AM
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It didn't happen.
Maybe it happened, some slimy, squamous swamp critters say it happened, but upstanding real Americans say it didn't. Nobody knows for sure.
OK, it happened, but he didn't do it.
OK, he did it, but it was small stuff, do it all the time, not impeachable.
Rudy? Your bus is here.

Two bits says the Pubbies offer a plea bargain. They will offer to "censure" Il Douche for poor behavior and bad optics. OK, that's it, he has been firmly scolded, that's that, time to move on.....
  #3395  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:23 AM
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The Republicans are going to get either vertigo or whiplash with all their spins, darts, and dodges.

GOP: Waaaaah! They didn't take a vote before they started issuing subpoenas! No fair!

Courts: They don't need no steenking vote, the process is valid.

GOP: Waaaaaah! We don't know who the whistleblower is! It's all second hand heresay!

Dems: We don't even need his testimony. The White House was stupid enough to give us the summary of Donald's "perfect" phone call in which he does the very same thing the whistleblower said he did. And if that wasn't enough, he invited China to do the same thing in front of television cameras.

GOP: Waaaaaah! The testimonies were given in closed door sessions! No fair!

Dems: We're going to take a vote of the full House to authorize the impeachment investigation and make all the depositions public.

GOP: "Waaaaaah! This means we were right all along! Everything up to this point has been irrevocably tainted! Our beloved Donald couldn't cross examine!

Dems: There will be public hearings. Both parties will get to examine the witnesses.

I suppose we have to have an opposition party, but can't we at least have one that isn't in constant need of a diaper change?
  #3396  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:47 AM
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Well, depends.....
  #3397  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:56 AM
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GOP: "Waaaaaah! This means we were right all along! Everything up to this point has been irrevocably tainted! Our beloved Donald couldn't cross examine!
I would love it if Donny Two-scoops did his own cross examination. You know he'd want to and it would be a real Emperor has no clothes moment.
  #3398  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:02 AM
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I would love it if Donny Two-scoops did his own cross examination. You know he'd want to and it would be a real Emperor has no clothes moment.
Interesting possibility. Does he have enough self-awareness to know that he would be completely over his head to try such a stunt? I think the best we could plausibly ask for would be having Rudy Colludy doing the defensive cross-exams.
  #3399  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:02 AM
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Well, depends.....
I'd rather have one that didn't need so much pampering.
  #3400  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post



The right wing talking point seems to be that Vindman was born in Ukraine and therefore his loyalty to the US is questionable. Multiple people have brought that up now on various news shows, so apparently this was the coordinated best response they could come up with.
Yep. Throw the decorated soldier under the bus. That is the Republican Way of Things now. And yes, it is obviously a coordinated talking point, and Fox News is on board.

What gets me is; do these people not realize that they will be the next under the bus? It's perfectly obvious that Trump has no loyalty whatsoever, and will knife anyone at any time.
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