Straight Dope Message Board

[Euphonious Polemic]

Electric vehicles (EV's) are becoming more and more common on the roads. Many companies are moving towards an "electric future", including major US companies like Ford (F150 electric truck anyone?)

Whenever I see a news article that discusses EV's, the comments section is often full of critics. These critics often trot out the same stuff, over and over and over again. I get sick of the misinformation and logical fallacies.

So here is some of what I see:

1. A variant on "I need a vehicle to do "X". EV's do not do "X". Therefore EV's are stupid and will never catch on.
"X" may be "I commute 350km each and every day to work"
or "I have to haul 1000kg of hay"

2. The old "EV's are like golf carts, and can't even get up a hill", or "EV's can only go 10km between charges" or some other non-factual piece of crap.

3. "If more than 2 people on a block have EV's you'll crash the grid." Really. My EV charges on a 110V, 15 amp circuit. It draws as much as a toaster.

4. "Your EV will burst in to flames and kill you". Ummmm No. Gas cars have more fires per mile driven, and the fires are quicker and more dangerous.

5." EV's are made with horrible materials that are from open pit mines, and batteries cannot be recycled. " Usually accompanies with pictures of an open pit COPPER mine. And yes, batteries can be recycled, and are being recycled.

6. EV's don't have enough range. (variant on the commuting 350 km/day above). They have enough range for a huge majority of people.
As I try to say to many of them - "If an EV does not work for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION.

Generally, these folks break into two groups:

- The misinformed or those who don't know any better
- Those who are deliberately and knowingly spreading false information

The latter can be seen on Every. Single. Discussion. about EV's . 1

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

They're just so slow. Especially that Tesla Model S P100D. A real putt-putt that thing. 2

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

They're just so slow. Especially that Tesla Model S P100D. A real putt-putt that thing.

I had someone tell me in a discussion thread once that those cars do not exist. In all seriousness, he believed that they were just CGI'ed models in youtube videos. 3

[enalzi]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Whenever I see a news article that discusses EV's, the comments section is often full of critics.

Well there's your problem. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villiany than news website comment sections. 4

[WildaBeast]

You forgot one: "EVs still generate emissions because the power to charge them is generated by burning fossil fuels." EVs are way more efficient than ICE powered cars, so even if 100% of your power came from coal you'd be generating fewer emissions than a gas powered car. And really no one's electricity is 100% from coal, and we're moving towards more cleaner power sources every day. 5

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by WildaBeast

You forgot one: "EVs still generate emissions because the power to charge them is generated by burning fossil fuels." EVs are way more efficient than ICE powered cars, so even if 100% of your power came from coal you'd be generating fewer emissions than a gas powered car. And really no one's electricity is 100% from coal, and we're moving towards more cleaner power sources every day.

Thanks. Yes, I try to point out that an EV is a vehicle that has the potential to get CLEANER over time, as we move the grid to better/greener sources of energy. 6

[YamatoTwinkie]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Whenever I see a news article that discusses EV's, the comments section is often

I'm just going to stop you right here, and tell you I've identified the source of the problem. 7

[Kent Clark]

Well, just because this is IMHO and I'm feeling snippy, I'm going to push back. An electric vehicle, at least as they (and the infrastructure they require) currently exist is not practical for me.

I live in St. Louis. If I want to visit my kids in Chicago, that drive pushes the battery range of a Tesla to its dregs. If I want to recharge (highly recommended) I pretty much have to pick a station along I-55 in Bloomington, and many of the sites are away from the highway and only open during business hours. I'd have to plan to add an hour to my trip to get off the highway, find an open station, and then take 40 minutes to get the battery powered up. May as well stop for lunch, even though we've only been on the road for 2 1/2 hours. It's even worse with the 500+ mile drive to visit my wife's family in Cleveland.

I have a small SUV that gets 30-35 mpg on the highway, with a big enough gas tank to go 400+ miles. There are 24/7 gas stations at virtually every exit along the highways, and filling the tank takes 5-10 minutes.

Not to mention my SUV cost a lot less than even the basic Tesla.

If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION. 8

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION.

Interestingly, I never do. If an EV does not work for you, by all means, avoid getting one. There are great other options for you.

I will ask though... in your personal situation, how often do you make a drive in excess of 500+ miles? Some people do so very regularly, and this may make an EV impractical for them.

I did have an online chat with a friend in Calgary who brought this up. She said she'd have a tough time driving to visit her sister in Winnipeg. I concurred. Asked when she'd last seen her sister. 10 years ago. Does not like her much. 9

[Balthisar]

I'm waiting for the Mustang-inspired electric crossover. However, a lot of the concerns are legitimate. I'll add that I'm responsible in some small part for the manufacturing aspects of the Mustang-inspired electric crossover, and am fully aware of many of the negative environment aspects. Given that I don't need to write a Masters thesis right now, I can't say whether the positives outweigh the negatives, only that there are negatives.

Honestly, I'd rather see pebble bed reactors replace other power plants than electric cars, but again, consider I'm not writing a thesis. 10

[Euphonious Polemic]

Given that I own BOTH an EV and a classic Mustang, I say, BRING IT ON!

Of course there will be negative environmental impacts from manufacturing an EV. It's a huge piece of metal, plastic and complex components, sourced from lots of exotic materials from all over the globe. 11

[Oredigger77]

I'd agree with Kent that EVs haven't been practical unless you are rich enough to own multiple cars. I don't do a ton of 400+ mile one way trips but I do a ton of 100 mile one way trips. A car with only a 200 mile rage would involve a mid day charge most weeks. I've wanted one of the Tesla model S for years but it would only be a fun toy like owning a Dodge Viper. Even if the vehicle was only impracticable for our two family vacations per year where we drive 1,000 to get to our vacation spot it would increase the cost of our vacations by $1,000 at a minimum since we'd need to rent a car which is more than we'd save with the electric car per year.

That being said Rivian is finally producing an EV that will, hopefully, meet the requirements to be a useful car. The 400 mile range is goon enough that we could probably make it as a vacation car though I'd prefer a 500 mile range. The 400 mile range will just shorten our vacations by 20% and would let me drive to my in-laws and back with out charging. The only real problem is the Rivian is still going to be too expensive so maybe in another decade EVs will be a potential family car for normal people. 12

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Balthisar

However, a lot of the concerns are legitimate.

The concerns of the people the OP is talking about are not legitimate. It ranges from data that's years out of date to straight-up bullshit. Just an example from our Model 3 thread:

Does any of this ring true to anyone (passed along email from my Dad):

Subject: Gas vs Electric Automobiles

ELECTRIC CAR...Hmmm... It makes you wonder…

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I’ve ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats… Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious. If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than 3 houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles... Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It’s enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors … and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.” Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4-1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000+… So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country!

Almost every sentence in that screed is false. But that kind of thing is considered a primary source by these people. It gets forwarded and shared endlessly, and people already inclined to believe that EVs are a scam eat it right up. Some of my own family members fit in this category, unfortunately. 13

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

I'd agree with Kent that EVs haven't been practical unless you are rich enough to own multiple cars. I don't do a ton of 400+ mile one way trips but I do a ton of 100 mile one way trips. A car with only a 200 mile rage would involve a mid day charge most weeks.

The Tesla Model 3 "Standard Range Plus" has a 250 mile range (and it really gets that except when bitingly cold). Because the car starts on a "full tank" every day (assuming home charging), you never have to go out of your way to charge.

Also, note that nothing obligates you to perform a full charge on the road. I can add 80 miles of range in 10 minutes at a Supercharger. If I'm only just over the car's range on a particular trip, a small boost like that is all I need. The rest of the charging happens at home while I'm sleeping. 14

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

I did have an online chat with a friend in Calgary who brought this up. She said she'd have a tough time driving to visit her sister in Winnipeg. I concurred. Asked when she'd last seen her sister. 10 years ago. Does not like her much.

This is an important point. Yes, some situations are not currently well-handled by an EV. However, my observation is that not a lot of people actually have a firm grasp of what their situation actually is. Most are eager to trot out examples that are rare to nonexistent, and fail to think about how an EV would improve matters for the vast majority of their driving.

The average car in the US is driven about 12,000 miles per year, and most of those are for the commute. Obviously, most people are not making 500-mile trips on a regular basis. 15

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

I'd agree with Kent that EVs haven't been practical unless you are rich enough to own multiple cars.

Rich enough? Many couples and families own multiple cars. 16

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

I'd agree with Kent that EVs haven't been practical unless you are rich enough to own multiple cars.

I have two cars - one EV (LEAF) and one ICE (Matrix). The purchase cost to me for both of these cars was $28,000. I am not poor. Neither am I rich. 17

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Almost every sentence in that screed is false. But that kind of thing is considered a primary source by these people. It gets forwarded and shared endlessly, and people already inclined to believe that EVs are a scam eat it right up. Some of my own family members fit in this category, unfortunately.

Agghhhhh! Now I want to correct all of the obvious lies in that link!

One thing that jumped out at me was how this dude was 'talking to a BC Hydro executive" at a BBQ, but the rest of the post is all in miles and gallons.... Obviously US sourced. And I'd love to know where he is that he pays $1.16/KwH for electricity. I guess "ImaginationTown"

(From WorldAtlas: "The Pacific island nation of Solomon Islands has the highest electricity cost in the world, at a staggering 99 US cents per kilowatt hour." 18

[Kent Clark]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

I will ask though... in your personal situation, how often do you make a drive in excess of 500+ miles? Some people do so very regularly, and this may make an EV impractical for them.

In my case, multiple times per year. And we get by on a single vehicle that has to handle multiple roles.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

The Tesla Model 3 "Standard Range Plus" has a 250 mile range (and it really gets that except when bitingly cold).

Yeah, and I didn't even bring up the winters in the Midwest and Great Plains.

Look, electric cars are great for city driving, they're great if your idea of a long drive is 100 miles, and they're great if you can afford to spend $30,000+ on a car. But for a whole lot of people, their limitations make them impractical.

For my next car, I'll be looking at something like a RAV-4 hybrid. 19

[Bill Door]

Electric vehicles do not currently pay their fair share of road use taxes. Gasoline is taxed to pay for road maintenance. As the market share of electric vehicles increases the state and federal government is going to look around for a way to replace those missing taxes, which probably run around $0.02 per mile. 20

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by Bill Door

Electric vehicles do not currently pay their fair share of road use taxes. Gasoline is taxed to pay for road maintenance. As the market share of electric vehicles increases the state and federal government is going to look around for a way to replace those missing taxes, which probably run around $0.02 per mile.

Washington State adds $100 or $150 to our annual registration fee to compensate. 21

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

For my next car, I'll be looking at something like a RAV-4 hybrid.

A plug-in hybrid would be great for many. Benefit of running on full electric for frequent short trips, and have the flexibility of gas for infrequent longer trips.

A RAV-4 plug in hybrid is said to be coming soon. 22

[steatopygia]

I may have missed it being mentioned upthread, but IME there is a strong correlation between being critical of electric cars and political leanings. Where I live there is a similar correlation between supporting wolf reintroduction and political party.
You would think these things have little relation to each other.

I (my wife) just bought a RAV4 hybrid. Per the car's electronics, it is getting 40.5 MPG.
I don't quite trust that number as there is some discrepancy between the cars listed gas tank size and how much gas is being used. 23

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Agghhhhh! Now I want to correct all of the obvious lies in that link!

It's like fractally wrong: it's wrong at every length scale. The overall conclusion is false, and the sub-arguments made by each paragraph are false, and each sentence is false, and each of the numbers within each sentence are false. Also, the way it is wrong spans another axis: it is factually wrong, while also being completely misleading, while also lying by omission, while also being a completely made-up story. Somehow it lies across all possible dimensions simultaneously. 24

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Bill Door

Electric vehicles do not currently pay their fair share of road use taxes. Gasoline is taxed to pay for road maintenance. As the market share of electric vehicles increases the state and federal government is going to look around for a way to replace those missing taxes, which probably run around $0.02 per mile.

I'd be cool with that, as long as gasoline users pay their share of the health and environmental costs they impose on the public. 25

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

they're great if your idea of a long drive is 100 miles

This is still a massive exaggeration. Just about every EV is doing 200+ miles these days. And the mid-level Model 3 does 300+.

So, 300-mile road trips are fine. 600-mile weekend trips with an overnight stop are fine. 400-mile trips with a 15-minute break along the way are fine. 500 mile trips with a 45-minute lunch break are fine. 1000-mile trips with stops for lunch and dinner and a few smaller breaks are fine.

And all of the short stops I mentioned should only be subtracted from the hours and hours you didn't have to spend at gas stations the entire rest of the time. For almost everyone, EVs come out ahead even if you do regular road trips. 26

[RioRico]

Modern steam technology like VW's Zero Emission Engine (ZEE) is more suitable for urban roadways than internal combustion engine (ICE) propulsion. ICE's burn fuel and emit crap when waiting at stoplights or in congestion; steamers only burn fuel (almost without emissions) to build pressure, and are as silent as electrics.

ICE's are marginally more fuel-efficient than steamers and so are better for longer runs. But ICE's will soon be legislated into oblivion. If the petroleum industry wants a future, it should push steamers, with a smaller carbon footprint than electrics to manufacture. Of course that industry will evaporate when nuclear fusion goes online. Then we'll all be electrified, even our skateboards. 27

[Novelty Bobble]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

This is still a massive exaggeration. Just about every EV is doing 200+ miles these days. And the mid-level Model 3 does 300+.

So, 300-mile road trips are fine. 600-mile weekend trips with an overnight stop are fine. 400-mile trips with a 15-minute break along the way are fine. 500 mile trips with a 45-minute lunch break are fine. 1000-mile trips with stops for lunch and dinner and a few smaller breaks are fine.

And all of the short stops I mentioned should only be subtracted from the hours and hours you didn't have to spend at gas stations the entire rest of the time. For almost everyone, EVs come out ahead even if you do regular road trips.

The cost of purchase is a barrier. The cheapest EV in the UK that can fit my family of four with luggage is £27,000. At least £10k more expensive than an equivalent ICE. Even being cheaper to fuel does not make it cheaper overall.

My own usage pattern sees 90% of the year in a 60-80 mile radius, perfectly fine for an EV. The long distances we do are in the range of 800+ miles across Europe several times a year and we can do that currently with one stop. Having noted what the EV infrastructure is like on my common route it is clear that we'd have to make a detour to recharge and still have to run the risk of busy or blocked chargers (I've seen that quite a lot)

So I'm unlikely to change until the situation changes to mean that EV's are the equivalent cost of a similar sized ICE, or that the costs to operate are equivalent over a 3-5 year period. (which will come with economies of scale) Also that the range consistently allows a 4-hour run on a 30 minute charge and is available to the same extent as current ICE fuelling. (which will need to be driven by the manufacturers and is already startign to happen)

Some I'm all for EV's and would be happpy to own one but will wait for the for the above to happen before switching, there is currently no incentive for me to do so. 28

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

The cost of purchase is a barrier. The cheapest EV in the UK that can fit my family of four with luggage is £27,000. At least £10k more expensive than an equivalent ICE. Even being cheaper to fuel does not make it cheaper overall.

That is completely fair. Entry-level EVs will come. A prices go down, the volume increases, which decreases prices further (more factories are built, mines come online etc.), which increases volumes, etc. It's a virtuous cycle that Tesla has ridden from the Roadster to the Model S to the Model 3 (with intermediate steps on each one). And finally we can see some progress from VW and the like. As annoying as it is to wait, the progress in the past 20 years has been remarkable. 29

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

I'd agree with Kent that EVs haven't been practical unless you are rich enough to own multiple cars.

You don't have to be rich to own multiple vehicles.

I own two, despite a recent trip through poverty and only emerging into the lower middle class in the last couple years. My spouse and I bought them back in the early '00's (actually, one is a '99) and kept them up. Then he died, so now I'm a not-rich person with two vehicles.

Lots of my coworkers, who are no better off than I am (and some worse off) often have more than one vehicle per family. They aren't really fancy or new, but they are working (or, sometimes, "working").

That said - an electric car really would fit my current commuting situation if I was looking another car AND I had the money to purchase an electric (not a lot of cheap used ones on the market). OK, I must be honest - a bicycle could fit my current commuting situation as it is only 7 miles each way, except that I don't have a route I feel safe biking and there's no place to park my bike where I work.

Last time I took a 200+ mile trip I rented a car - because while my vehicles work, they are quite old and have had sudden breakdowns. That's inconvenient in the area where I live, on a long trip in unfamiliar territory that's more of a problem. So some of us rent a vehicle for long trips anyway, for reasons other than "my electric car doesn't have that long a range". 30

[Novelty Bobble]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

That is completely fair. Entry-level EVs will come. A prices go down, the volume increases, which decreases prices further (more factories are built, mines come online etc.), which increases volumes, etc. It's a virtuous cycle that Tesla has ridden from the Roadster to the Model S to the Model 3 (with intermediate steps on each one). And finally we can see some progress from VW and the like. As annoying as it is to wait, the progress in the past 20 years has been remarkable.

I think the VW announcement has the potential to be the real game-changer. If you are placing your EV at a price-point and with the size/features of the Golf and from a legacy manufacturer, you get far more people saying "sure, why not? where's the risk?" If in parallel VW push their charging infrastructure out more widely then you do indeed get a virtuous cycle ongoing.
My intention is to go ICE for my next 3-5 year car ownership and jump into EV ownership in that slightly more mature environment. 31

[enipla]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

...If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION.

Yup. It's October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow.

Sure there are 4 wheel drive EV's. But how's that ground clearance?

When they make an EV with the abilities of say a Toyota 4runner Off Road. I'll think about it. 32

[Ludovic]

"Rich" is relative. Many families can't afford multiple vehicles. On the other hand, how many of them also take extended road trips? And how many of those also own a house with a garage instead of renting an apartment? For those families who have to make a choice their choice should indeed be a non-electric vehicle. They could simply rent a car when they go on a road trip, but that's a hassle.

On the other hand there are single people for which multiple vehicles wouldn't make sense at all unless you were indeed rich. I myself am not only single but also am in an apartment and I also take long road trips, so I own a regular Prius. If I were married and had multiple vehicles and a not-extremely-large family and a house, our second car would either be electric or a plug-in hybrid, since the Prius is just barely large enough for a road trip for 4 people. 33

[Translucent Daydream]

Our next car will be electric. On the occasions that we drive out of town it’s dirt cheap to rent a car. 34

[swampspruce]

Originally Posted by enipla

Yup. It's October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow.

Sure there are 4 wheel drive EV's. But how's that ground clearance?

When they make an EV with the abilities of say a Toyota 4runner Off Road. I'll think about it.

I think the Bollinger B1 pretty much beats it in every category except range and price, which are the two bugbears of pretty much every other EV.

Keep in mind, the B1 is meant as a working vehicle much like the original Land Rovers and Jeeps were so it'll lose out on amenities like 10 way power leather seats.

B1 review
2020 4Runner 35

[Ruken]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

And how many of those also own a house with a garage instead of renting an apartment?

I do wonder about this. I haven't ever lived anywhere as an adult where I could charge at home. But I don't know how common that is. The pay chargers at my office cost more than gasoline, last I checked.


I think many people overestimate their need for range. When my car got decrepit I started renting cars for long trips. Obviously YMMV. Based on my travel history, an EV with supplemental rentals makes sense for me. I don't drive to work, so it mostly gets used for errands and trips. But I'm still likely to replace it with an ICE because charging an EV would be a logistical nightmare for me. 36

[enipla]

Originally Posted by swampspruce

I think the Bollinger B1 pretty much beats it in every category except range and price, which are the two bugbears of pretty much every other EV.

Keep in mind, the B1 is meant as a working vehicle much like the original Land Rovers and Jeeps were so it'll lose out on amenities like 10 way power leather seats.

B1 review
2020 4Runner

Could buy 3 4Runners for the current cost of one B1. But yep it looks capable. Doubt a 3000 mile road trip would be much fun in it. (The last long road trip my Wife and I made was 4000 miles) 37

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

That is completely fair. Entry-level EVs will come. A prices go down, the volume increases, which decreases prices further (more factories are built, mines come online etc.), which increases volumes, etc. It's a virtuous cycle that Tesla has ridden from the Roadster to the Model S to the Model 3 (with intermediate steps on each one). And finally we can see some progress from VW and the like. As annoying as it is to wait, the progress in the past 20 years has been remarkable.

Yes.

Also, as time marches on, more and more EV's will enter the used market. That's how I got my LEAF for under $15,000 CDN. 3 years old and only 22,000 km on it. I have never bought a new car in my life, and may never do so. 38

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Ruken

I do wonder about this. I haven't ever lived anywhere as an adult where I could charge at home. But I don't know how common that is. The pay chargers at my office cost more than gasoline, last I checked.


I think many people overestimate their need for range. When my car got decrepit I started renting cars for long trips. Obviously YMMV. Based on my travel history, an EV with supplemental rentals makes sense for me. I don't drive to work, so it mostly gets used for errands and trips. But I'm still likely to replace it with an ICE because charging an EV would be a logistical nightmare for me.

Apartments only need to put in 110v, 15 amp plugs for overnight charging. Many apartments already have this kind of infrastructure in their parking areas. 39

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

Rich enough? Many couples and families own multiple cars.

Sorry I was not clear. I meant an additional car per person. We are a two car family but we can't fit the whole family in my wife's car for vacations it is barely large enough for her to pick the kids up after school (Ford Focus) any thing we do as a family requires my car (Jeep Grand Cherokee) in order for us to swap to electrics we would have to own at least a third car for long family drives. Most people I know who own more than one car per driving adult I'd consider rich unless it was some one like my in laws who own 7 cars but only 1 runs at a time. 40

[jz78817]

Originally Posted by RioRico

Modern steam technology like VW's Zero Emission Engine (ZEE) is more suitable for urban roadways than internal combustion engine (ICE) propulsion. ICE's burn fuel and emit crap when waiting at stoplights or in congestion; steamers only burn fuel (almost without emissions) to build pressure, and are as silent as electrics.

Um, the ZEE still burned fuel. back then "zero emissions" meant "zero trace pollutants" like unburned HC, CO, etc. They still would be pumping out CO2 commensurate with their power output. 41

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by enipla

Yup. It's October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow.

Sure there are 4 wheel drive EV's. But how's that ground clearance?

When they make an EV with the abilities of say a Toyota 4runner Off Road. I'll think about it.

I'm very glad you did not follow this up with "And threfore, EV's are stupid and nobody should own one."

Because this is what I am seeing frequently from some.

Niche vehicles that are electric are coming. They will take a bit longer, so you will have one soon. A Toyota Rav-4 4WD is probably not quite good enough for your needs? A fully electric version is coming in 2022 (Fall 2021). More specialized vehicles to follow. 42

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Sorry I was not clear. I meant an additional car per person. We are a two car family but we can't fit the whole family in my wife's car for vacations it is barely large enough for her to pick the kids up after school (Ford Focus) any thing we do as a family requires my car (Jeep Grand Cherokee) in order for us to swap to electrics we would have to own at least a third car for long family drives. Most people I know who own more than one car per driving adult I'd consider rich unless it was some one like my in laws who own 7 cars but only 1 runs at a time.

I predict that in 10 years, your family will own at least one car with battery technology (Hybrid, Plug in Hybrid or Electric) 43

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

I have two cars - one EV (LEAF) and one ICE (Matrix). The purchase cost to me for both of these cars was $28,000. I am not poor. Neither am I rich.

I'm guessing you are objecting to the rich part of my comment since obviously you have to own two cars for the EV to be practical. One thing I love about the Dope is learning about other people I would never have guessed that some one would buy two crappy cars rather than on nice one. 44

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Sorry I was not clear. I meant an additional car per person. We are a two car family but we can't fit the whole family in my wife's car for vacations it is barely large enough for her to pick the kids up after school (Ford Focus) any thing we do as a family requires my car (Jeep Grand Cherokee) in order for us to swap to electrics we would have to own at least a third car for long family drives. Most people I know who own more than one car per driving adult I'd consider rich unless it was some one like my in laws who own 7 cars but only 1 runs at a time.

In cases like yours, perhaps the Ford Focus could be replaced by an electric car of a similar type (something like the Nissan Leaf or the forthcoming VW ID.3, for example) and keep the ICE-powered SUV for the long family trips. 45

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that, any more than anyone is trying to tell you that everyone should own a four-door hatchback with an internal-combustion engine. 46

[enipla]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

I'm very glad you did not follow this up with "And threfore, EV's are stupid and nobody should own one."

Because this is what I am seeing frequently from some.

Niche vehicles that are electric are coming. They will take a bit longer, so you will have one soon. A Toyota Rav-4 4WD is probably not quite good enough for your needs? A fully electric version is coming in 2022 (Fall 2021). More specialized vehicles to follow.

Currently the Rav-4 is too small. Looks rather low to the ground too. Both in ground clearance, and getting in and out of the vehicle (I'm 6'3" 220lbs).

I'm VERY picky about the cars I buy. I have special requirements and spend a lot of time in them. I do gravel roads and mountain highways every day. I drive over the continental divide twice every day. Yes I'm an outlier as far as the driving conditions I encounter.

What ever floats your boat. I think that the new EV's are pretty cool. Just not for me yet. 47

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by enipla

Yup. It's October 25th, and we have had 22 inches of snow so far this year. We are the only full time residents on our road, so we are the last on the list for the county to plow. Last year we got 30 feet of snow.

We're at 18 inches so far this year just down the mountain from you.

Originally Posted by swampspruce

I think the Bollinger B1 pretty much beats it in every category except range and price, which are the two bugbears of pretty much every other EV.

Keep in mind, the B1 is meant as a working vehicle much like the original Land Rovers and Jeeps were so it'll lose out on amenities like 10 way power leather seats.

B1 review
2020 4Runner

Bollinger is crazy. Their vehicles are wildly over priced especially compared to Rivian. The R1S has almost 14.5" of ground clearance and can have a 400 mile range with and it is half the price of Bollinger. At this point the only reason to buy one is for the abilty to say you dropped over 100K on a car that is hand built.

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

I predict that in 10 years, your family will own at least one car with battery technology (Hybrid, Plug in Hybrid or Electric)

I'd guess we have one in the next two to three years. Rivian's R1T meets all most all of the requirements my family needs in a car. We'll drop the Focus and add an R1T which will be a work car for me. We've talked about upgrading the GC to a diesel X5 so we have a more fuel efficient and larger car for hauling the family around. 48

[Dewey Finn]

Personally, I'm more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies. 49

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

Personally, I'm more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies.

Ford looks like they are joining the EV party in a big way. It's a business decision for them.

There is a "mustang inspired" (whatever that means) SUV that is going to be unveiled next month. Possibly will go on sale late 2021.

The Electric F-150 is at least on the drawing board, and should be in production in the next few years.

Ford announced a partnership with an EV charging network, with 12,000 charging stations with a total of 35,000 plugs across the US

Ford has invested $500 million into Rivian, which is an interesting partnership 50