#51  
Old 10-25-2019, 01:32 PM
Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Apartments only need to put in 110v, 15 amp plugs for overnight charging. Many apartments already have this kind of infrastructure in their parking areas.
Many do, many don't. I just wonder about the numbers. Two of my last eight places might have been able to do it. And in that case it's the landlords who have to make the decision to install. Which they won't do unless they charge or feel they're missing out by not offering an in-demand amenity. Which gives us a chicken/egg scenario.

Or there could be a policy mandate.

It's not just apartments. I own my home but not my parking space.

So anyway, it's some barrier to adoption; I just don't know high. Nothing to support the nonsense the OP describes.
  #52  
Old 10-25-2019, 01:37 PM
enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
We're at 18 inches so far this year just down the mountain from you.



Bollinger is crazy. Their vehicles are wildly over priced especially compared to Rivian. The R1S has almost 14.5" of ground clearance and can have a 400 mile range with and it is half the price of Bollinger. At this point the only reason to buy one is for the abilty to say you dropped over 100K on a car that is hand built.



I'd guess we have one in the next two to three years. Rivian's R1T meets all most all of the requirements my family needs in a car. We'll drop the Focus and add an R1T which will be a work car for me. We've talked about upgrading the GC to a diesel X5 so we have a more fuel efficient and larger car for hauling the family around.
That R1S looks pretty good.
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #53  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:01 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Personally, I'm more skeptical of these new auto manufacturers (like Tesla, Bollinger, Faraday, Rivian, etc) than I am of electric vehicles from established ICE vehicle companies.
One of these things is not like the others. Bollinger, Faraday, and Rivian have not produced a single vehicle. Tesla has produced around 800,000.

It's been said many times that all the existing manufacturers have to do is drop a motor and battery pack into a car and squish Tesla dead. We can see from the latest batch of EVs that this isn't true. Look at the Audi eTron, Jaguar iPace, Benz EQC, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, and others, and it's easy to see that their motors are bigger and less efficient than Tesla, the cars are heavier, they get less range from a given sized pack, they charge more slowly, and so on.

That's not to say they aren't good cars. People who want conventional trappings from a car, or even (gasp!) want to buy their car from a dealer, will almost certainly be happy with these models. EVs are still an inherently great experience. But the idea that they're going to roll over Tesla at this point is false. They underestimated just about everything that goes into an EV and spent years underinvesting in them.

Also, I have to share this blast from the past--this article is over 10 years old now:
Watch Out, Tesla, Audi's e-Tron Is Coming

Pretty sure Tesla never had anything to worry about there...
  #54  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:14 PM
PastTense is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,888
In rural areas both repair facilities for electric cars and car rental companies are hard to find.
  #55  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:25 PM
Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
In rural areas both repair facilities for electric cars and car rental companies are hard to find.
I think I brought up rental cars in the context of being able to rent one when you need range. And what you write is very true. I'm a hop and jump from various rental options; that hasn't always been the case when I've lived elsewhere.

Although I expect rural homes to have better access to home charging than I've had in more built-up areas.
  #56  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:30 PM
LAZombie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
They're just so slow. Especially that Tesla Model S P100D. A real putt-putt that thing.
"Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...o-100-mph.html
  #57  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:36 PM
Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 29,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
One of these things is not like the others. Bollinger, Faraday, and Rivian have not produced a single vehicle. Tesla has produced around 800,000.
The third quarter of this year, Tesla produced 97,000 cars, apparently a record for them. That's great, but it makes them a niche player in the business.
  #58  
Old 10-25-2019, 02:38 PM
Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 29,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
"Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...o-100-mph.html
Steve Wozniak got pulled over for going 104MPH in his Prius.
  #59  
Old 10-25-2019, 03:00 PM
YamatoTwinkie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
I live in St. Louis. If I want to visit my kids in Chicago, that drive pushes the battery range of a Tesla to its dregs. If I want to recharge (highly recommended) I pretty much have to pick a station along I-55 in Bloomington, and many of the sites are away from the highway and only open during business hours. I'd have to plan to add an hour to my trip to get off the highway, find an open station, and then take 40 minutes to get the battery powered up.
Here's the trip from St Louis to Chicago as estimated by abetterrouteplanner. It stops for 17 minutes at what appears to be a 24/7 supercharger near Bloomington. (Note: it doesn't leave you with much battery at the end, assuming you have charging available at your destination).
  #60  
Old 10-25-2019, 03:47 PM
MacTech is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 6,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Steve Wozniak got pulled over for going 104MPH in his Prius.
Oh those poor tortured and abused little Hamsters in the engine....

I hear Scotty screaming "I kinna' do it, I'm givin' 'er all she's got, Captain..."

Personally, EV's are not yet practical for me, I don't have a garage or access to high voltage rapid charging, and wall outlet charging would take too long to be practical, the car would be parked outdoors, winters are nasty, and I do tend to do long trips, plus the infrastructure isn't yet ready, the closest supercharger is about 20 miles away at the local Chevy dealer

for the moment, my emissions-fixed '12 Golf TDI is the most practical solution, 35-46 MPG, and *FUN* to drive!

I've had the misfortune of driving a prius, and it just isn't for me, too boring, to soulless, anemic power, I'd rather get a root canal without Novocain than drive a smegging prius.

once electric infrastructure is available in my area, however, I will *seriously* consider an EV, something Golf sized with a decent range (sorry, the E-Golf range is sub-optimal, and the ID series isn't coming to the US for a while, and Teslas are still too bloody expensive, my Golf TDI cost me $9000.
__________________
Freakazoid> dumb, Dumb, DUMB!, NEVER tell the villain how to trap you in a cage!
Gutierrez> You probably shouldn't have helped us build it either...
F!> I know, DUMB!

Last edited by MacTech; 10-25-2019 at 03:48 PM.
  #61  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:06 PM
Balthisar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 11,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
There is a "mustang inspired" (whatever that means) SUV that is going to be unveiled next month. Possibly will go on sale late 2021.
In 2020, as a MY2021.
  #62  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:11 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
The third quarter of this year, Tesla produced 97,000 cars, apparently a record for them. That's great, but it makes them a niche player in the business.
Herbert Diess, CEO of Volkswagen:
Quote:
“Tesla is not niche,” Diess said in Wolfsburg, Germany, where VW is based. “The Model 3 is a large-series model and they are one of the biggest manufacturers of electric-car batteries.”

“We have a lot of respect for Tesla,” Diess continued. “It’s a competitor we take very seriously.”
Tesla as a whole doesn't yet compare to the likes of VW or GM due to not yet having a broad lineup, but comparing model-to-model, the Model 3 does very well and is not a niche product.
  #63  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:19 PM
scr4 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
This is still a massive exaggeration. Just about every EV is doing 200+ miles these days. And the mid-level Model 3 does 300+.

So, 300-mile road trips are fine. 600-mile weekend trips with an overnight stop are fine. ...
200-mile rated range realistically means you can count on it to make a 150-mile trip, maybe a bit less in winter. And it still takes additional time & planning to find a charger during a road trip, especially in politically conservative parts of the US.

I really wish GM did a better job of selling the plug-in hybrid concept. You do end up with a more complicated car, but it just makes life easier. My Chevy Volt only uses gas when we go out of town, and when we do, we never have to think about finding a charger.
  #64  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:39 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 12,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by scr4 View Post

I really wish GM did a better job of selling the plug-in hybrid concept. You do end up with a more complicated car, but it just makes life easier. My Chevy Volt only uses gas when we go out of town, and when we do, we never have to think about finding a charger.
The Prius Prime is even better (in my opinion, having owned both). It drives better on gas as a hybrid after the charge is gone than the Volt does. Although I like both cars.

However, after getting an iPace, I don't think I'll ever have another car that uses gas for anything.
  #65  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:41 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
I really wish GM did a better job of selling the plug-in hybrid concept.
Not just GM. My parents ended up with a PHEV Fusion, but I think the only reason is that they got a good lease deal on it. They love it now, and fully get the idea that 24 miles of EV range is actually just fine for puttering around town (cutting their gas usage by probably 2/3), but the dealer did not do a good job of explaining the concept when they bought it.
  #66  
Old 10-25-2019, 04:44 PM
scr4 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
for the moment, my emissions-fixed '12 Golf TDI is the most practical solution, 35-46 MPG, and *FUN* to drive!

I've had the misfortune of driving a prius, and it just isn't for me, too boring, to soulless, anemic power, I'd rather get a root canal without Novocain than drive a smegging prius.
The Prius is not an EV. It's very different, in fact - it's a gasoline-powered car highly optimized for efficiency. The current model Prius listed as 121 horsepower total power. It actually has a 98-horsepower engine and a 72-horsepower electric motor, but I don't think they ever get used at full power together. And the electric motor is only good for acceleration, not sustained power output.

On the other hand, the Chevy Bolt EV has a 200-horsepower motor with 361 N⋅m torque. And that's fairly typical of modern mainstream EVs. Modern EVs also have good weight distribution (all the batteries mounted low, and evenly distributed between front & rear).

Last edited by scr4; 10-25-2019 at 04:46 PM.
  #67  
Old 10-25-2019, 05:48 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
The Prius Prime is even better (in my opinion, having owned both). It drives better on gas as a hybrid after the charge is gone than the Volt does. Although I like both cars.

However, after getting an iPace, I don't think I'll ever have another car that uses gas for anything.
My dad's got a Prius Prime, which he plugs in every night. Every couple of months he deliberately switches it to run on the gas specifically to burn it, lest it sit in the tank unused and go bad.

Not that I can do anything until/unless I get into a house, but if I got a hybrid I'd never think about doing such things, and if I ever needed it the gas would probably be bad. I'd rather get a pure electric and have a larger battery than deal with gas that I will virtually never use.
  #68  
Old 10-25-2019, 06:10 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 27,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Here's the trip from St Louis to Chicago as estimated by abetterrouteplanner. It stops for 17 minutes at what appears to be a 24/7 supercharger near Bloomington. (Note: it doesn't leave you with much battery at the end, assuming you have charging available at your destination).
Well, that leaves me with a concern. As you note, the 17-minute charge is only a partial charge. I don't know how much additional range it will give me, but I'll take your word for it that I will arrive in Chicago with little reserve. Which means my battery will be declining as I near Chicago and have to fight my way through traffic to get to my son's apartment on the North Side (which does not have a charging station - hell, I'm lucky if I can find a parking spot on the street.) Throw in a Chicago winter, and I feel like I'd better get a charge up in Joliet or Bollingbrook. That eliminates the time savings of that partial charge back in Bloomington.

And this isn't just about my trips to Chicago or Cleveland. What about people who want to drive from Minneapolis to Sioux Falls. It's less than 300 miles, but once you get on I-90, those charging stations get fewer and further apart. Throw in subzero temperatures and an early sunset and there's a lot of "range anxiety" coming into play.

Has anyone ever calculated the winter range of a fully charged Tesla in the Midwest vs. So. Cal.?
  #69  
Old 10-25-2019, 07:34 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
Has anyone ever calculated the winter range of a fully charged Tesla in the Midwest vs. So. Cal.?
Range loss can be around 40% on the very coldest days, around -40 C. The general consensus I've seen is that it's more like a 25% loss on moderately cold days, say a bit below freezing.

Teslas do have distinct advantages in winter. The climate control can be easily controlled from the app, so it can be toasty warm before you get in. And the AWD is essentially the best you can get--far superior to pretty much any car or SUV. This guy does tests of cars on rollers and I doubt you could better than a Tesla except with a 4WD with locking differentials.
  #70  
Old 10-25-2019, 07:39 PM
steatopygia's Avatar
steatopygia is offline
Experimental FOC Test Pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Idaho mostly
Posts: 1,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
The Prius Prime is even better (in my opinion, having owned both). It drives better on gas as a hybrid after the charge is gone than the Volt does. Although I like both cars.

However, after getting an iPace, I don't think I'll ever have another car that uses gas for anything.

You got an iPace!!?? Care to talk about it?
  #71  
Old 10-25-2019, 07:53 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 12,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by steatopygia View Post
You got an iPace!!?? Care to talk about it?
Sure. I love it. Bought it in June. 5,000 miles of fun so far

ETA. If you ask my wife, it’s the only thing I ever want to talk about these days

Last edited by Procrustus; 10-25-2019 at 07:54 PM.
  #72  
Old 10-25-2019, 08:05 PM
steatopygia's Avatar
steatopygia is offline
Experimental FOC Test Pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Idaho mostly
Posts: 1,926
I think an I-Pace might be my dream car. I first read about it roughly a year ago and thought that the list price was like $50,000. I probably saw the price listed in British Pounds.

I need AWD at minimum where I live. I also have a weakness for British cars. I've bought 2 Land Rovers new. They were the relatively inexpensive but completely unreliable Freelanders.

When I finally realized the actual price of the I-Pace, I was pretty disappointed. While I could afford it, I just can't justify it.

So, go on...
  #73  
Old 10-25-2019, 08:18 PM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW. ¥
Posts: 12,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by steatopygia View Post
I think an I-Pace might be my dream car. I first read about it roughly a year ago and thought that the list price was like $50,000. I probably saw the price listed in British Pounds.

I need AWD at minimum where I live. I also have a weakness for British cars. I've bought 2 Land Rovers new. They were the relatively inexpensive but completely unreliable Freelanders.

When I finally realized the actual price of the I-Pace, I was pretty disappointed. While I could afford it, I just can't justify it.

So, go on...
IMO it looks cool, drives smooth and fast, and has every luxury feature you could want. It was a choice between the iPace and the Model X, both good cars. It’s a big step up from my beloved 2012 Volt.
  #74  
Old 10-25-2019, 09:47 PM
Pork Rind's Avatar
Pork Rind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 2,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
On the other hand, the Chevy Bolt EV has a 200-horsepower motor with 361 N⋅m torque. And that's fairly typical of modern mainstream EVs. Modern EVs also have good weight distribution (all the batteries mounted low, and evenly distributed between front & rear).
I bought a Bolt this year. It has an eye-opening amount of scoot. Flooring it at anything up to highway speeds delivers a potent kick in the ass and will have the traction control stepping in. Perceptually, it feels faster than the twin turbo BMW it replaced.
  #75  
Old 10-26-2019, 12:16 AM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
Which means my battery will be declining as I near Chicago and have to fight my way through traffic to get to my son's apartment on the North Side
Just a quick point on this one:

Some of my friends who have never driven an EV got confused about this too. "What if I get stuck in gridlock and my battery runs out", they asked me.

They are thinking like someone with a gasoliine engine that can run out of gas while idling. An EV does not use much power at all while stopped. Getting stuck in stop and go traffic will not kill your range. In fact, your range is better at low speeds than on the highway at high speeds. So it may take you longer if traffic is bad - but you won't be in danger of losing range.
  #76  
Old 10-26-2019, 12:17 AM
dtilque is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: My own private Nogero
Posts: 7,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
"Making this week easier for late-night talk show hosts everywhere, Al Gore III, the son of former Vice President Al Gore, was arrested on Wednesday after police discovered marijuana and prescription drugs in his car. Gore III had been pulled over on the San Diego Freeway for speeding at about 100 mph in his Toyota Prius."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...o-100-mph.html
I've always wondered what people found so funny about that incident. I saw nothing at all humorous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
My dad's got a Prius Prime, which he plugs in every night. Every couple of months he deliberately switches it to run on the gas specifically to burn it, lest it sit in the tank unused and go bad.
And I wonder about people who buy a PHEV and then brag about how long they've gone without using the gas engine. Yes, that does happen. Why are they lugging around this heavy ICE that they don't use?
  #77  
Old 10-26-2019, 01:27 AM
enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Range loss can be around 40% on the very coldest days, around -40 C. The general consensus I've seen is that it's more like a 25% loss on moderately cold days, say a bit below freezing.

Teslas do have distinct advantages in winter. The climate control can be easily controlled from the app, so it can be toasty warm before you get in. And the AWD is essentially the best you can get--far superior to pretty much any car or SUV. This guy does tests of cars on rollers and I doubt you could better than a Tesla except with a 4WD with locking differentials.
My box stock 4Runner Off Road Premium has switchable locking rear diff and switchable limited slip that is amazing. I've read that Toyota oversized the brake rotors to give the limited slip better control (my Pathfinder sucked at this).

I've been 'Jeeping' for 40 years. I've been in plenty of troublesome situations. Last winter, I did stick the 4 runner once. It's sort of to be expected. Another time, I backed out of something that stunned me.

I don't doubt that the Tesla does well controlling power to the wheels. But I doubt it would manage well in a foot of snow.

Understand that I'm not dissing Tesla or any other EV for their ability. But do understand that when my Wife or I look at a new vehicle one of the first things we look at is ground clearance. When we buy a new vehicle, we ditch the factory tires and either put on Blizzaks or Nokians. We run those tires year round, summers are short.

And yes, I am an 'outlier' for these conditions. Gonna chain up my plow truck this weekend on all four.

We've had 22"s of snow this October. Winter has set in. Expecting 8-14"s Sat night and Sunday
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #78  
Old 10-26-2019, 12:33 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
I imagine there are still places where it makes sense to use a horse to get places, and to do your ranching work.

This is great. Use your horse. But please don't tell me that my car that I use to commute downtown and back is stupid. (not directed at anyone here)

Just read a facebook thread that was started by our utility, on the subject of the pros and cons of buying used EV's. Some dude posted a cut'n'paste that said we would "crash the grid". The utility company replied that they were prepared for the expected EV charging, projected to 2030, and there would be no problems.

Did the dude accept this? No he did not. Insisted that he was right, and the entire utility company was wrong. Jesus. People are fucking idiots.
  #79  
Old 10-26-2019, 02:56 PM
Balthisar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 11,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
They are thinking like someone with a gasoliine engine that can run out of gas while idling. An EV does not use much power at all while stopped. Getting stuck in stop and go traffic will not kill your range. In fact, your range is better at low speeds than on the highway at high speeds. So it may take you longer if traffic is bad - but you won't be in danger of losing range.
Unless it's dark and winter, and you're running all of your lights, heated seat, steering wheel, and air. The heated air (I'll just call it a heater, now), really drains things if you're low. Granted, I'm thinking 8 kwh versus a car with 90 kwh, but it was enough that when I was gamifying my Fusion, I'd go to work without the heater turned on.
  #80  
Old 10-26-2019, 03:45 PM
Heracles's Avatar
Heracles is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Southern Québec, Canada
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
My dad's got a Prius Prime, which he plugs in every night. Every couple of months he deliberately switches it to run on the gas specifically to burn it, lest it sit in the tank unused and go bad.

Not that I can do anything until/unless I get into a house, but if I got a hybrid I'd never think about doing such things, and if I ever needed it the gas would probably be bad. I'd rather get a pure electric and have a larger battery than deal with gas that I will virtually never use.
I don't know about the Prius Prime, but the Chevrolet Volt will turn on the petrol engine / generator once in a while, as a function of when you last added fuel, to ensure the average age of the fuel remains within spec. It's automatic and non-forgettable.
  #81  
Old 10-27-2019, 10:19 AM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Electric vehicles (EV's) are becoming more and more common on the roads. Many companies are moving towards an "electric future", including major US companies like Ford (F150 electric truck anyone?)


1. A variant on "I need a vehicle to do "X". EV's do not do "X". Therefore EV's are stupid and will never catch on.
"X" may be "I commute 350km each and every day to work"
or "I have to haul 1000kg of hay"
Can you cite anyone saying that on this board?

What people have said is that the current crop of EV's are slow to charge and as such require a garage with 220V service to bring it closer to the utility value of other vehicles.

Since not everybody has a garage with 220V service and lives 5 miles from work it's reasonable to say that that EV's are not a direct replacement for ICE cars at this time.
  #82  
Old 10-27-2019, 12:31 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Can you cite anyone saying that on this board?

What people have said is that the current crop of EV's are slow to charge and as such require a garage with 220V service to bring it closer to the utility value of other vehicles.

Since not everybody has a garage with 220V service and lives 5 miles from work it's reasonable to say that that EV's are not a direct replacement for ICE cars at this time.
I thought I made it clear that I was discussing people who spout off about EV's without knowing anything WHO ARE NOT POSTERS HERE.

In fact, my second line was "Whenever I see a news article that discusses EV's, the comments section is often full of critics. " Critics who post utter crap and lies, and then use these lies to say that nobody should ever buy an EV.

I have no problem with what anybody has said here on the Straight Dope or on this thread.

With regards to your comment, I do not have 220V charging at home, and nor do I intend to get it. My LEAF fully charges on a 110v 15 amp circuit overnight, and I find this is perfectly fine for my use. (And many other LEAF owners I have spoken to.

Also, if you live 20 miles from work (four times your estimate), you could make three round trips to work in a 2019 LEAF quite comfortably, and then charge overnight on 110V.

Newer EV's have more range. The new Ford SUV that will be rolled out shortly and available at the end of 2020/early 2021 will have 300 miles of range. I'm pretty sure this will work for you if you live more than 5 miles from work.


Certainly better charging infrastructure is needed, and will be put in place. Ford is partnering with private charging networks to increase this. I'm sure in the early days of combustion engine cars, gasoilne stations were few and far between, and you could not make your own gasoline at home.

Bottom line; EV's are currently not for every single person or use right now. Agreed. I am not telling you to get one. HOWEVER. This is changing rapidly, and I get tired of people who base their opinions on falsehoods (not anybody here), or on 10 year old EV technology, and telling me I am an idiot for having an EV. (not anybody here!)

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 10-27-2019 at 12:32 PM.
  #83  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:36 PM
echoreply's Avatar
echoreply is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Can you cite anyone saying that on this board?

What people have said is that the current crop of EV's are slow to charge and as such require a garage with 220V service to bring it closer to the utility value of other vehicles.

Since not everybody has a garage with 220V service and lives 5 miles from work it's reasonable to say that that EV's are not a direct replacement for ICE cars at this time.
110V service will be fine for most people. I lived with 100% 110V charging for two months before I got my 220V line installed, and it was fine. It was actually so fine, that I probably wouldn't have bothered, except the location of the 110V outlet was inconvenient.

So, here are some calculations that are specific to me: 9pm (start of low price electricity) to 7:30am (leave for work) is 10.5 hours. A 110V outlet can provide 12amps * 110V * 10.5 hours = 13.8kWh (for $1.11) * 0.80 charging efficiency ~ 11kWh of power added to the car . For my car, that translates to about 50 miles. It's nearly a third of a charge for a 2016+ Leaf, and almost half of a charge for an older Leaf. That's enough to completely fill a PHEV.

The only difference in my behavior between the 110V and 220V outlet is that with the 110V I plugged in every night, and with the 220V I only plug in a few times per week.

That won't work for everybody, but it will work for most people. What is the modal commute in the US? I'd say if you can do 10-11 hours of charging per night, and have a 30 miles or less in typical daily usage, then 110V will work. Obviously if you drive 200 miles per day pulling a trailer, then don't buy a used Fiat 500e.
  #84  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:58 PM
Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 29,288
From the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the average driver drives 29 miles each day. So yes, overnight charging at 110V would work for most of us.

Personally, I drive less than 500 miles a month, and only a couple of miles each way to work and I park in a single-car private garage attached to my apartment building. So an electric car might work for me. But the only outlet in the garage is in the ceiling, for the garage door opener. I could probably plug into that, but the apartment includes free electricity, so recharging my car at home would probably mean cheating the landlord.
  #85  
Old 10-27-2019, 02:01 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
From the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the average driver drives 29 miles each day. So yes, overnight charging at 110V would work for most of us.

Personally, I drive less than 500 miles a month, and only a couple of miles each way to work and I park in a single-car private garage attached to my apartment building. So an electric car might work for me. But the only outlet in the garage is in the ceiling, for the garage door opener. I could probably plug into that, but the apartment includes free electricity, so recharging my car at home would probably mean cheating the landlord.
If you make a couple of extra slices of toast every day in your toaster, would that be "cheating the landlord"?
  #86  
Old 10-27-2019, 02:45 PM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
From the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the average driver drives 29 miles each day. So yes, overnight charging at 110V would work for most of us.

Personally, I drive less than 500 miles a month, and only a couple of miles each way to work and I park in a single-car private garage attached to my apartment building. So an electric car might work for me. But the only outlet in the garage is in the ceiling, for the garage door opener. I could probably plug into that, but the apartment includes free electricity, so recharging my car at home would probably mean cheating the landlord.
Nobody bases their life around average travel. 110V charging doesn't allow for charging beyond the range of the car in a timely manner. For that matter, neither do superchargers. At some point it means planning your life around the car instead of the car simply being available on demand.

In order to rely on an EV as the only source of transportation the average person needs a substantially faster charging battery in addition to infrastructure to support it.

The fact that some people use their car on a limited basis and can tolerate the shortcomings of an EV puts the current technology of the car in the niche market. It truly needs a better battery than Lithium Ion. If it were up to me I'd turn the quest into another "Manhattan project" and get it done.

I greatly look forward to the day when I can own an EV and drive it at will without thought of distance or state of charge. I will probably by an EV in it's current evolutionary state as a 2nd car in 5 or 6 years.
  #87  
Old 10-27-2019, 03:49 PM
jz78817 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Under Oveur & over Unger
Posts: 12,590
Every vehicle is a tradeoff. I’d be perfectly happy with a ~300 mile EV which I wake up to find a “full tank” every morning vs. the usual “fuck, I need gas again?” With my truck. And my truck always needs gas at the least convenient times.

Last edited by jz78817; 10-27-2019 at 03:49 PM.
  #88  
Old 10-27-2019, 03:56 PM
Oredigger77 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Back at 5,280
Posts: 5,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
110V service will be fine for most people. I lived with 100% 110V charging for two months before I got my 220V line installed, and it was fine. It was actually so fine, that I probably wouldn't have bothered, except the location of the 110V outlet was inconvenient.

So, here are some calculations that are specific to me: 9pm (start of low price electricity) to 7:30am (leave for work) is 10.5 hours. A 110V outlet can provide 12amps * 110V * 10.5 hours = 13.8kWh (for $1.11) * 0.80 charging efficiency ~ 11kWh of power added to the car . For my car, that translates to about 50 miles. It's nearly a third of a charge for a 2016+ Leaf, and almost half of a charge for an older Leaf. That's enough to completely fill a PHEV.

The only difference in my behavior between the 110V and 220V outlet is that with the 110V I plugged in every night, and with the 220V I only plug in a few times per week.

That won't work for everybody, but it will work for most people. What is the modal commute in the US? I'd say if you can do 10-11 hours of charging per night, and have a 30 miles or less in typical daily usage, then 110V will work. Obviously if you drive 200 miles per day pulling a trailer, then don't buy a used Fiat 500e.
These numbers worry me more about switching to an EV. My wife currently commutes 45 miles one way so a 10 hour overnight charge at 240V will leave her ~10 miles per day to run errands. Once you include the low being -2 this wednesday any drop in range will leave her having to dip into the extra range. I think earlier in the thread it sas said a 20% drop in range so 200 turns into 160 so 70 extra miles per week total that's a trip to the vet or the in law's house so at least once per week in the winter she's going to have to stop what's she's doing and track down a charging station.

It also worries me about getting the 400 mile Rivian. If I can't fully recharge over night that seriously undercuts the utility of the range. Needing to change for 40 hours at 240 to get a full charge really is a serious negative.
  #89  
Old 10-27-2019, 04:01 PM
running coach's Avatar
running coach is online now
Arms of Steel, Leg of Jello
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Riding my handcycle
Posts: 37,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post

It also worries me about getting the 400 mile Rivian. If I can't fully recharge over night that seriously undercuts the utility of the range. Needing to change for 40 hours at 240 to get a full charge really is a serious negative.
Their slogan: KEEP THE WORLD ADVENTUROUS FOREVER.

Might need a re-working.
  #90  
Old 10-27-2019, 04:18 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Here's the magical EV that people need if they are going to make the switch:

- 1500km/900 mile range minimum
- Full charge in 10 minutes or less
- Inexpensive chargers located at home or on every block
- Can tow 15,000 pound Recreational Vehicle
- Can park in a small parking space
- Is able to haul 2000 pounds of hay
- Can operate as a self contained working van for plumbing contractor
- Costs under $10,000

This is the magic EV that would please everyone.

Or, alternatively, we could get away from the idea that one single vehicle type will please everyone.
  #91  
Old 10-27-2019, 05:20 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Can you cite anyone saying that on this board?

What people have said is that the current crop of EV's are slow to charge and as such require a garage with 220V service to bring it closer to the utility value of other vehicles.

Since not everybody has a garage with 220V service and lives 5 miles from work it's reasonable to say that that EV's are not a direct replacement for ICE cars at this time.
You have argued several times that EVs are basically undesirable until there’s a battery that can add 250 miles in 3 minutes (or something).

Potato, potato.
  #92  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:30 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 27,120
Reading this thread made me curious about some of these vehicles, so I looked them up.

It turns out that a fair number of them aren't even available here.

Some, like the Kira Niro and the Honda Clarity simply aren't sold in the Midwest.

Some, like the Jaguar I-Pace might technically be available, but there isn't a dealer who stocks them within 250 miles of here.

I see that the Misubishi i-MIEV is no longer sold in N. America. There's an Outlander plug-in hybrid now, but that raises another concern. The number of Mitsubishi dealers around here has dwindled to a single dealer within 100 miles. This makes me leery of buying anything by them, particularly a technology which is by no means universal.

So my choices are severely limited compared with someone in, say, Los Angeles.

Last edited by Kent Clark; 10-27-2019 at 06:32 PM.
  #93  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:43 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
Reading this thread made me curious about some of these vehicles, so I looked them up.

It turns out that a fair number of them aren't even available here.
Unfortunately, you are correct. A number of EV's are what are known as "compliance cars" ; Cars that are only sold in limited States (like CA) in order to meet emissions control regulations.

The good news is that once these cars are sold in good numbers in California, manufacturers often then start selling them all over.

The bad news is that the Trump Administration does not like emission standards, so they are busy trying to forbid California from setting them.

The good news is that California and 23 other states are suing the Trump Administration for doing this.

Meanwhile, car companies are moving ahead with more EV plans anyway. So you'll likely have more choice in a few years. I agree though, the choice for many is limited right now.
  #94  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:45 PM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
Unless it's dark and winter, and you're running all of your lights, heated seat, steering wheel, and air. The heated air (I'll just call it a heater, now), really drains things if you're low. Granted, I'm thinking 8 kwh versus a car with 90 kwh, but it was enough that when I was gamifying my Fusion, I'd go to work without the heater turned on.
I sat for 45 minutes, in hot summer, on a freeway bridge that had traffic stopped for an accident.
Everyone else in sight either idled their engines for the AC, or shut them off and used windows or got out of their vehicle (in 98F 90% humidity sunshine).
I was using no engine, running the AC, and the 'range remaining' display did not change.
Felt good.
  #95  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:58 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Oh, forgot to add to the list above:

- Must operate with no loss of efficiency at temperatures from 120 F to -40 F, in conditions of freezing rain, extreme dust and 12 feet of snow. And also underwater.
  #96  
Old 10-27-2019, 07:34 PM
Spiderman's Avatar
Spiderman is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: somewhere East of there
Posts: 11,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
An electric vehicle, at least as they (and the infrastructure they require) currently exist is not practical for me.
<snip>
If an EV works for your personal situation - fine. But don't try to tell me what works for MY SITUATION.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I will ask though... in your personal situation, how often do you make a drive in excess of 500+ miles? Some people do so very regularly, and this may make an EV impractical for them.
I am currently sitting in a hotel. When I arrived here, at 2am, after a 250+ mile drive (ending thru the mountains) there was no parking close to the building, nor would I expect that to change at any point overnight. I might have made it there but wouldn't have been able to do much the next day. I usually do trips like this 6-9 times a year. At least one & frequently two over holiday weekends. Not only would my car rental costs be astronomical but I'd need to leave work early to get to the rental place before they close. That's not even factoring in do I want to be driving an unfamiliar car in sometimes dark or crappy weather. High beam, windshield wiper/washer, & climate controls aren't always in the same place or operate the same exact way; therefore, I'd need to take my eyes off the road to do things I can do by feel in my car.

There is a significant portion of the population that doesn't have the ability to charge either at home (many apartment dwellers or city row home/brownstone residents that don't have dedicated parking) or at work.
I can fill up my car in under four minutes; there are enough pumps that I very rarely have to wait in line but even if I do, it's only six or seven minutes, tops. I have never seen more than two EV charging stations at one location. There are many people that would waste a lot of time regularly charging an EV.


Your OP comes off as rather sanctimonous. If EVs work for you, wonderful; however, until the range increases, the recharge infrastructure increases, & on-road charge times come down I wouldn't even consider one.
  #97  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:20 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderman View Post


Your OP comes off as rather sanctimonous. If EVs work for you, wonderful; however, until the range increases, the recharge infrastructure increases, & on-road charge times come down I wouldn't even consider one.
Thank you for not telling me that because an EV does not work for your personal circumstances, that therefore I must be an idiot for owning one because I am stupid.

Also, thank you for clearly explaining your particular circumstances, and not demanding an impossible car. If you are doing monthly 500 mile round trips for work, over the mountains in poor weather, I can certainly see why the current crop of EV's might not work for you.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 10-27-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #98  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:24 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,532
To be clear:

I don't have a problem with anyone (esp. folks in this thread) who cannot own a current EV because their personal circumstances make it difficult or impossible for a variety of valid reasons.

I DO have a problem with those (not in this thread) who have told me that I am stupid for owning an EV because THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES are such that an EV would not work for them.
I DO have a problem with those (not in this thread) who spread complete and utter buillshit about EV's because they are either assholes or useful idiots spreading crap for assholes.
  #99  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:32 PM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
You have argued several times that EVs are basically undesirable until there’s a battery that can add 250 miles in 3 minutes (or something).

Potato, potato.
I guess people hear what they want to hear. I said they need a fast charge battery to replace ICE cars. When a battery can recharge as quickly as people fuel an ICE car they will stop making ICE cars.

If the current EV technology was as desirable as ICE cars the change would already have occurred.
  #100  
Old 10-27-2019, 08:40 PM
Dr. Strangelove's Avatar
Dr. Strangelove is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
These numbers worry me more about switching to an EV. My wife currently commutes 45 miles one way so a 10 hour overnight charge at 240V will leave her ~10 miles per day to run errands.
Your math is off. 240V is shorthand for twice the voltage and a significantly increased amperage.

Sometimes a standard 120V outlet is all that's easily available. They can support about 12 amps of continuous load. For a Model 3, that provides 4-5 miles of range per hour of charging, so maybe 40 miles overnight.

If you have a dryer outlet, you can do 240V at 24 amps. That's 4 times the charge rate, and gives an efficiency boost, so you end up with 20-22 miles per hour, or 200+ overnight.

And if you really need it, you can get a hard-wired installation that will charge at 48 amps. That's 44 miles per hour, which means you can complete a 100% charge in under 8 hours.

I don't know what the Rivian will support as far as charging goes, but there's no reason they can't match the Model 3 in charge rate. They'll probably end up with a lower miles/hour, because being a big truck the overall efficiency is lower. But I'd be surprised if they can't charge at 30 miles/hour with a beefy home charger system.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017