Straight Dope Message Board

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

And really, it almost makes more sense to just install a bunch of outlets and let customers bring their own charge cables. That's only a couple hundred bucks of materials per port. RV parks already manage to do this on the cheap (and are sometimes used by EV drivers when nothing else is handy).

The last hotel I was in (this past weekend) had outlets outside the building; however, it's illegal to park there & use them as that's a fire lane. The hotel I'm currently in does not have access up against the building (other than the pickup/dropoff checkin/out covered area). While not insurmountable, add the cost to run power lines into the parking lot to create those charging posts.

Originally Posted by puzzlegal

This. I installed a charging station in my garage. It's wasn't very expensive -- the cost of a new outlet plus about $100 for the port. Apartment buildings install stoves, air conditioners, etc. Lots have been retrofitted for AC, even. Installing some charging stations in the parking garage is a lot cheaper than installing AC in the units.

Not all apartment buildings have garages. The one I used to live in had parking at the end of the building, illuminated from a few lights on the building. Most of the cars were physically parked away from the building. Again, the lot needs to be (partially) ripped up to be able to install electric under the paving. 201

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

The last hotel I was in (this past weekend) had outlets outside the building; however, it's illegal to park there & use them as that's a fire lane. The hotel I'm currently in does not have access up against the building (other than the pickup/dropoff checkin/out covered area). While not insurmountable, add the cost to run power lines into the parking lot to create those charging posts.



Not all apartment buildings have garages. The one I used to live in had parking at the end of the building, illuminated from a few lights on the building. Most of the cars were physically parked away from the building. Again, the lot needs to be (partially) ripped up to be able to install electric under the paving.

This is true, but again is already standard procedure in much of Canada to provide for block heaters, where somehow apartments and hotels manage to operate. 202

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Several people brought up the same point but I'll address yours. Home charging doesn't work with longer range EVs. We already went through it in post 100. The best home charging is 44 miles per hour.

Why on earth do you think that home charging "doesn't work" if it can't provide a full charge from empty in a single night? The point of home charging is to provide for normal daily driving, which in the US is on average 37 miles a day. A simple 240V outlet will easily get you far more than that. 203

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

For me 400 miles will cover most of my day trips since my 700 mile/day days are done.

You are in an incredibly unusual situation. The average person barely drives 400 miles in two weeks, let alone every day. And earlier you were talking about 1200 mile family drives in 16 hours (do you make the kids pee in a cup or what?). You keep talking about EVs being niche vehicles, but you seem to be using your own rare circumstances as evidence for this. Whereas in reality your driving habits are nothing like a typical American.

There another pattern that I see over and over from you and others. It basically goes like this:
- I value the advantages that EVs offer at exactly zero
- I value the advantages of my current ICE car at infinity

Although everyone applies their own personal weighting factors to various features, it's obvious that these aren't legitimate when the factors just happen to exactly coincide with the status quo. In other words, it's a lack of imagination at work, not reasonable differences in preference.

The reality is that owners of long-range EVs virtually all love their cars. Tesla more than most, but really just about all of them. 204

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

While not insurmountable, add the cost to run power lines into the parking lot to create those charging posts.

Again, RV parks manage this without breaking the bank. They typically provide a NEMA 14-50 outlet, which can charge at a peak of 12 kW or 48 miles/hour (in practice, one should reduce this by ~25%). It's just not a big deal. And cheaper the more of them you have. 205

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak

Why on earth do you think that home charging "doesn't work" if it can't provide a full charge from empty in a single night? The point of home charging is to provide for normal daily driving, which in the US is on average 37 miles a day. A simple 240V outlet will easily get you far more than that.

He is thinking that EVERYone is like him. That EVERYone drives in excess of 200 miles/day for their jobs, and sometimes would regularly drive 700 miles/day.

So therefore, EV's are "niche" in his books.

Yes, this kind of logic is pretty much what my complaint is about in the OP. 206

[Euphonious Polemic]

And also: the cherry picking of an insane figure for a charging station ($270,000??? WTF?) is just plain silly. Protip: if you have no idea about the subject at hand, maybe don't post.

Or even the suggestion that apartments would have to spend "$6000 a pop" to install charging for tenants. Seriously? Where was this figure pulled out of? Maybe don't just make shit up.
How about doing a quick google? Clipper Creek charger HCS-50 charges at 9.6 kW, which will give you 31 miles range in an hour. Cost you $635. Requires the same wiring as a stove.
Get home at 12:00 midnight and leave home at 8:00 am with 250 miles of range. Intelligent apartment building owners will be putting these in new construction NOW. Intelligent apartment building owners will be including these in retrofit and maintenance plans/budgets NOW (at least getting some in now, with plans for more later.)

But right. Keep on telling us it can't be done. Or is too expensive (based on imaginary figures pulled out of the air)

Or keep on telling us that everyone MUST have a car that can go 700 miles a day, each and every day. Or can go through 12 feet of snow at -40. 207

[puzzlegal]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Several people brought up the same point but I'll address yours. Home charging doesn't work with longer range EVs. We already went through it in post 100. The best home charging is 44 miles per hour.



Assuming a 500 mile charge that's 11 hours to a full charge. So now your home system is no longer convenient to give you a full charge or at least I don't know too many families that are home for that long every night ...

You don't need a full charge every night. You need to be able to charge more miles than you typically drive. The full capacity is just for unusual road trips.

I typically drive between 5 and 40 miles in a day. Maybe once or twice a month I drive 120 miles or so. If my other car were an ICE I could use on road trips, a mid-range EV would suit me just fine, with current technology.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

... Again, the lot needs to be (partially) ripped up to be able to install electric under the paving.

And I had to have a lot of ducts run to install A/C in my house, as did owners of older hotels. Yeah, it's not trivial. But it's completely doable if there's demand. 208

[Ruken]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak

This is true, but again is already standard procedure in much of Canada to provide for block heaters, where somehow apartments and hotels manage to operate.

What do people with street parking do in Canada? I'd never thought about that. Is it not a thing there?

Even if it's not hard to power parking lots, there's still the supply/demand chicken/egg. People don't want to buy EVs because they can't charge them. Apartments don't install plugs because it doesn't currently make them money. At some penetration we should see movement by landlords, but I don't know where that is. It could also be driven by policy.

I hypothesize that we'll see more early adoption in multicar households. Assuming I could charge, and assuming we had two cars, my family's need for two long-range cars is much less than it's need for just one. Obviously YMMV. 209

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

From what I've found, rapid charging reduces battery life and capacity, so, if true, it's something to avoid if possible.

It's not a big deal.

To clarify more: rapid charging here means in 100 kW plus territory. With rare exceptions, that means Tesla Superchargers. Home charging of any kind is so gentle as to be completely inconsequential.

Actual user reports suggest that Supercharging does not cause problems in any measurable way. It's a theoretical problem but it doesn't seem to be borne out in practice. Tesla has limited charging speeds to 90 kW (still quite fast) for some older models when Supercharging is used frequently, but aside from that there seems to be no effect. I don't believe new models have that limit. Heavy Supercharger users don't report significant range degradation.

Gen3 Superchargers are in the process of being rolled out and go up to 250 kW on a Model 3. It doesn't sustain that, though, and it's virtually certain that Tesla has chosen their charge curve to be just short of the damage point. Perhaps they will limit the number of really fast charge cycles; we'll have to see what they do.

For ordinary use, where most charging is done at home and Supercharging is done for road trips, battery damage is not worth thinking about at all. 210

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Ruken

What do people with street parking do in Canada? I'd never thought about that. Is it not a thing there?

Well, it varies. Most newer vehicles don't absolutely have to have block heaters running to start at -30, so some people with only street parking just don't plug in. Others run extension cords from their house out to the street. It's against bylaws to run across the sidewalk, but some do anyways. Others string a long cord overhead to a tree on the curb as if it were a clothesline. This obviously doesn't work if there are no trees on the curb, but neighbourhoods that are heavily reliant on street parking are almost always old neighbourhoods with trees along the street.

Obviously, the desirability of access to power for a block heater increases the desirability of off-street parking. And yes, it's something you think about when choosing a place to live. 211

[Ruken]

Well if nothing else I learned a thing today about cold places, thanks. 212

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak

Why on earth do you think that home charging "doesn't work" if it can't provide a full charge from empty in a single night? The point of home charging is to provide for normal daily driving, which in the US is on average 37 miles a day. A simple 240V outlet will easily get you far more than that.

I explained this in my post. As an easy example let say you are one of the majority of people who road trip for vacations. Let's say your vacation ends and you drive the 8 hours home from your vacation and further let’s say you are a normal person who wants to maximize their vacation time so you don't get home until 10 or 11 at night. now you're up for work and leave your house at 6 am the next morning. You only have a 300-mile charge and maybe your 40 miles of extra. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable, sure you're not going to run out that day, but the benefit, that I've been told over and over again in this thread, is you start each day with a full charge.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

You are in an incredibly unusual situation. The average person barely drives 400 miles in two weeks, let alone every day. And earlier you were talking about 1200 mile family drives in 16 hours (do you make the kids pee in a cup or what?). You keep talking about EVs being niche vehicles, but you seem to be using your own rare circumstances as evidence for this. Whereas in reality your driving habits are nothing like a typical American.

I'm going to assume you're not actually reading any of my sites. The average American drives for vacation 90% of the time and prefers to stay in a hotel at least 8 hours from home. It's true my vacation is further than most Americans and I'm not advocating for anything that would actually meet my needs.

Averaging 80 MPH on a 75 MHP high way is normal speeds and leaves an hour for pee breaks. Typically, we leave after work on Friday (which furthers screws up the whole starting with a full charge with home charging) and drive from 5 or 6 pm until 10 am the next morning. We eat breakfast and dinner in the car and the kids typically don't need to pee in the middle of the night so the three 20-minute breaks for gas/food/stretching is plenty.

But even if you take my brother in law who starts his vacation late Saturday morning and drives 8 hours and then grabs a hotel for 8 hours before starting out the next morning to get in Sunday around noon. He would need a 600-mile charge in 8 hours the same as the theoretical average person who drives 8 hours from their home to a hotel and then gets up the next morning to do something on their vacation. The second case is what I think will get wide spread acceptance. This isn't every day it’s a twice annual vacation.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

There another pattern that I see over and over from you and others. It basically goes like this:
- I value the advantages that EVs offer at exactly zero
- I value the advantages of my current ICE car at infinity

Although everyone applies their own personal weighting factors to various features, it's obvious that these aren't legitimate when the factors just happen to exactly coincide with the status quo. In other words, it's a lack of imagination at work, not reasonable differences in preference.

The reality is that owners of long-range EVs virtually all love their cars. Tesla more than most, but really just about all of them.

Yep, you definitely aren't reading my posts. I'm going to buy an EV in the next two or three years. The R1T actually meets 90% of my needs. It can carry my family of 4. I can drive to the grandparent’s house and back without relying on a charge while I'm there. I can drive through 12" of snow and tow a trailer. The fact it is blazing fast is a fun perk. We will not be able to only have EVs so my wife's car will stay an ICE and will be our car for all of our vacations. I am concerned about driving 196 miles to my in-laws for Thanksgiving when it doesn't get above 0 then driving back home on Black Friday then out to my parents (66 miles) where we keep our dogs. Basically, I'll have to add ~160 miles at 110v (15 amp) so at least 30 hours minimum charging at my in-laws to survive a simple Thanksgiving trip. But that is my use case not average.

I think you are wildly over-weighting your life. The average vacation is 314 miles one way and while lots of people don't travel (61% travel less than 50 miles per year) the average person still manages to take 10 long distance trips per year with 9 of them being by car. Only urban poor take less than 4 long distance trips per year. Obviously, the daily use case is covered by EVs even in their current form. So why aren't EVs ubiquitous? My opinion is there are two primary reasons; first is price and second is range anxiety for their occasional use cases. 213

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

And also: the cherry picking of an insane figure for a charging station ($270,000??? WTF?) is just plain silly. Protip: if you have no idea about the subject at hand, maybe don't post.

It really is too bad you don't bother to read sites. Maybe one more site will show that you have no idea what you're talking about and maybe should stop posting. Now that is from 2013 and shows $100-175K per supercharger and apparently the costs have gone up dramatically at least according to Wiki. 214

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

It really is too bad you don't bother to read sites. Maybe one more site will show that you have no idea what you're talking about and maybe should stop posting. Now that is from 2013 and shows $100-175K per supercharger and apparently the costs have gone up dramatically at least according to Wiki.

Are you still thinking that a supercharger is required for overnight charging? 215

[Euphonious Polemic]

US dept of energy study from 2015:

The cost of a single port EVSE unit
ranges from $300-$1,500 for Level 1, $400-$6,500 for Level 2, and $10,000-$40,000 for DC fast charging.
Installation costs vary greatly from site to site with a ballpark cost range of $0-$3,000 for Level 1, $600-
$12,700 for Level 2, and $4,000-$51,000 for DC fast charging.

Worst case scenario for DC fast chargers: $40,000 plus $51,000 install.

These are only found in major centers, or strategically placed along highways for long distance travel. That's where they are needed. For people making long distance trips.

In two years of owning an EV, I have used a DC fast charger a total of 10 times. 7 times for long distance trips. 3 times just for shits and giggles to see how it works. 216

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

In two years of owning an EV, I have used a DC fast charger a total of 10 times. 7 times for long distance trips. 3 times just for shits and giggles to see how it works.

Wait, you recharged during long distance trips? That's impossible. It would completely destroy Oredigger77's position if that were a thing that were possible. 217

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

It really is too bad you don't bother to read sites. Maybe one more site will show that you have no idea what you're talking about and maybe should stop posting. Now that is from 2013 and shows $100-175K per supercharger and apparently the costs have gone up dramatically at least according to Wiki.

You mean the superchargers that Tesla normally doesn't sell? Why would I care what it costs? Upthread I linked to a website listing for a generic (meaning can be used for cars other than Teslas) DC fast charger that costs about $40,000 and can charge two cars at the same time. 218

[galen ubal]

Quick question - how do EV batteries respond to high temperatures?

Here in Central Victoria, Australia, cold temperatures aren't really a concern. It'll dip below freezing a few times a month in winter, and that's about it.

In the summer, however - and even in spring, like it is now - temps will routinely reach the mid-30s celsius, and there will be days up in the 40s*. How will the batteries respond to that?

As yet, EVs available in Australia don't meet my use case/cost calculus, quite, but I'm keeping an eye on them.

*For fahrenheit thinkers, 35C is about 95F, and 40C is about 104F Today, in mid-spring, it's predicted to reach 33C/91F. Summertime, daytime high temps will rarely be below 30ishC. 219

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

I'm going to assume you're not actually reading any of my sites. The average American drives for vacation 90% of the time and prefers to stay in a hotel at least 8 hours from home.

Your NYTimes cite is behind a paywall. It's not clear what 8 hours actually means, but I'm almost certain it doesn't mean 8*80 mph=640 miles as your trips would entail.

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

He would need a 600-mile charge in 8 hours the same as the theoretical average person who drives 8 hours from their home to a hotel and then gets up the next morning to do something on their vacation.

No he wouldn't. Reasonable-cost EVs aren't going to have 600 mile ranges anytime soon, anyway.

The way a 600 mile drive works today, in a Tesla, is this:
- You start the day with a 300 mile range, because you told the car to charge to 100% last night.
- You drive 250 miles or so and stop at a Supercharger. You walk to McDonalds or Starbucks for a bite to eat and a bathroom break. 25 minutes later you get back to your car, which has added 200 miles of range.
- You drive another 200 miles and make another quick pit stop at a Supercharger. This time it's only an 18 minute break; enough to grab a coffee and pee. The car has added 150 miles of range when you were gone.
- You drive the final 150 miles to the hotel. You get there with 50 miles left; plenty of wiggle room. You plug into an L2 charger, which only takes 7 hours to go from 50->300 miles.
- Repeat as necessary.

Overall, you spent <45 minutes charging on the road, and basically all of that was time you would have spent anyway on breaks. Even if you're the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop--well, who cares, that's only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal.

That said, this does require that Superchargers be common on your usual routes. In California, that's true. It may not be true where you are, and so the times might be longer if you have to go out of your way or stop earlier than you'd like. But more stations are going in all the time, and fairly soon we'll also have non-Tesla fast chargers. 220

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by galen ubal

Quick question - how do EV batteries respond to high temperatures?

Totally fine. Optimal, even.

I worked out the numbers a while back: on a Model 3, the lowered air density from hot air actually gives more power savings than the extra load on the AC unit. And in my experience, this is borne out--I see maybe a 10% range increase going from cool temps (say, 10 C) to warm (35 C).

The cells themselves like to be warm. Tesla now has a feature that pre-warms the battery pack before reaching a Supercharger station because they can charge faster that way. 221

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Are you still thinking that a supercharger is required for overnight charging?

Dude,you literally were bitching about me cherry picking the cost of a super charger. I respond with a cite showing you know nothin about supercharger cost. Now you're changing your story to pretend you were complaining about installing a supercharger at all. Do you understand that everything is saved and stored for us all to see? 222

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by galen ubal

Quick question - how do EV batteries respond to high temperatures?

Here in Central Victoria, Australia, cold temperatures aren't really a concern. It'll dip below freezing a few times a month in winter, and that's about it.

In the summer, however - and even in spring, like it is now - temps will routinely reach the mid-30s celsius, and there will be days up in the 40s*. How will the batteries respond to that?

As yet, EVs available in Australia don't meet my use case/cost calculus, quite, but I'm keeping an eye on them.

*For fahrenheit thinkers, 35C is about 95F, and 40C is about 104F Today, in mid-spring, it's predicted to reach 33C/91F. Summertime, daytime high temps will rarely be below 30ishC.

Nissan LEAF batteries are not great in high temperatures. They do not have active battery cooling. This does lead in some cases to premature battery degradation. (think areas like Phoenix AZ; not kind to LEAF batteries)

In areas like yours, stick to EV's with good thermal management. 223

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Overall, you spent <45 minutes charging on the road, and basically all of that was time you would have spent anyway on breaks. Even if you're the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop--well, who cares, that's only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal.

That said, this does require that Superchargers be common on your usual routes. In California, that's true. It may not be true where you are, and so the times might be longer if you have to go out of your way or stop earlier than you'd like. But more stations are going in all the time, and fairly soon we'll also have non-Tesla fast chargers.

Exactly this. I'm not sure how often anyone actually drives for 600 miles non-stop without a break for even a pee. I actually think it's recommended to take breaks while driving to avoid fatigue, which can be dangerous.

Whenever I have stopped for gas in my ICE car on a road trip, I don't think I have EVER gassed up and zoomed off. My family uses the restroom, we get snacks, have a stretch...

DC fast chargers are being installed every 200km or so along the major highways in my neck of the woods. Canadian Tire is installing them in parking lots of their stores. PetroCanada is rolling out fast chargers in their stations that are located on or near major highways. 224

[Euphonious Polemic]

In general, people really have trouble wrapping their heads around how an EV changes the way we will be thinking about how we "fuel" our vehicles. 225

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by begbert2

Wait, you recharged during long distance trips? That's impossible. It would completely destroy Oredigger77's position if that were a thing that were possible.

Yep the 200 miles in 75 minutes for a supercharger totally makes my points crazy. Oh wait, I said that 600 miles in 480 minutes would be needed which is half the speed of a supercharger and then proposed putting a supercharger. Huh, its almost like you agree with me. 226

[WildaBeast]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Clipper Creek charger HCS-50 charges at 9.6 kW, which will give you 31 miles range in an hour. Cost you $635. Requires the same wiring as a stove.

You may have just answered a question I've often wondered. My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all? 227

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

You mean the superchargers that Tesla normally doesn't sell? Why would I care what it costs? Upthread I linked to a website listing for a generic (meaning can be used for cars other than Teslas) DC fast charger that costs about $40,000 and can charge two cars at the same time.

You mean the cost to a company who has installed hundreds of chargers across the country instead of a small urban pilot. I think having a discussion on what the infrastructure cost really would be to hotels would be interesting but attacking me for proposing a charger that meets the standards that I explained how I achieved and documenting the cost for that installation is hardly a crazy way to argue. 228

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by WildaBeast

Would I even need any new wiring at all?

No new wiring required. The existing outlet is fine.

If you're really lazy, you can get something like the Dryer Buddy. One input, two outputs, and has either a manual or automatic cutover. But just unplugging and replugging works fine, too. 229

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Yep the 200 miles in 75 minutes for a supercharger totally makes my points crazy.

You continue to spout misinformation. It's roughly 200 miles in 25 minutes for a Supercharger, not 75 minutes. And not too long from now, it'll be 200 miles in 15 minutes. 230

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Your NYTimes cite is behind a paywall. It's not clear what 8 hours actually means, but I'm almost certain it doesn't mean 8*80 mph=640 miles as your trips would entail.



No he wouldn't. Reasonable-cost EVs aren't going to have 600 mile ranges anytime soon, anyway.

The way a 600 mile drive works today, in a Tesla, is this:
- You start the day with a 300 mile range, because you told the car to charge to 100% last night.
- You drive 250 miles or so and stop at a Supercharger. You walk to McDonalds or Starbucks for a bite to eat and a bathroom break. 25 minutes later you get back to your car, which has added 200 miles of range.
- You drive another 200 miles and make another quick pit stop at a Supercharger. This time it's only an 18 minute break; enough to grab a coffee and pee. The car has added 150 miles of range when you were gone.
- You drive the final 150 miles to the hotel. You get there with 50 miles left; plenty of wiggle room. You plug into an L2 charger, which only takes 7 hours to go from 50->300 miles.
- Repeat as necessary.

Overall, you spent <45 minutes charging on the road, and basically all of that was time you would have spent anyway on breaks. Even if you're the type who only would have made a single 5 minute gas stop--well, who cares, that's only 40 extra minutes out of 8 hours. Big deal.

That said, this does require that Superchargers be common on your usual routes. In California, that's true. It may not be true where you are, and so the times might be longer if you have to go out of your way or stop earlier than you'd like. But more stations are going in all the time, and fairly soon we'll also have non-Tesla fast chargers.

You know what you are correct. If there were supercharger equivalents every 200 miles across the country then EVs would be totally practical and you wouldn't even need the charger at the hotel since you could add 200 miles in 20 minutes over breakfast. That would solve range anxiety completely. Hmmm . . . That almost exactly what I've proposed.

Admittedly it would be my personal hell having to stop every 3 hours but it would work. 231

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

You continue to spout misinformation. It's roughly 200 miles in 25 minutes for a Supercharger, not 75 minutes. And not too long from now, it'll be 200 miles in 15 minutes.

Maybe you should write a book so you can cite yourself. I've been citing my sources where are yours? The wikipedia page shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I'm missing something but at least I'm showing my work. 232

[friedo]

Originally Posted by WildaBeast

You may have just answered a question I've often wondered. My washer and electric dryer just happen to be in my garage anyway. If I had an EV, could I simply unplug the dryer and plug the EV into the 220 V dryer outlet? Would I even need any new wiring at all?

Yes you can, though a typical dryer outlet is only 30 amps (NEMA 14-30 usually), which will max out at around 7.2kw for charging. (But in reality, an EV will not draw the full 30 amps so as to not trip your breaker, so you'll get maybe 6kw.)

I installed a 50-amp (NEMA 14-50) plug on my garage to charge my EV. Fortunately the main electrical panel was only a few feet away so the installation was very easy. I just had to pay a guy to bend the conduit for me, since I don't have a conduit bender.

The car will draw 40 amps (9.6kw) which can effect a recharge from zero to 90% in about eight hours. Of course I almost never bring the car home anywhere near empty, so it usually charges for 3-4 hours a night. 233

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Admittedly it would be my personal hell having to stop every 3 hours but it would work.

I think everyone can see how bizarrely distorted your views are here. Reasonable stopping interval for just about everyone equals "personal hell" for Oredigger77. 234

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

The wikipedia page shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I'm missing something but at least I'm showing my work.

Well, I can show you a photo of my own charge screen here. It shows a charge rate of 486 miles/hour. Note that this is an instantaneous rate--it can't sustain that over the full charge cycle. But it can get roughly that below 70%ish. 200 mi / 486 mph * 60 min/hour = 24.7 minutes.

You don't charge to 100% at a Supercharger (I included this fact in my trip above). The charge rate declines rapidly at high charge levels. Stopping in the 70-80% range is ideal. Charging at ~200 mile intervals works nicely. 235

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Maybe you should write a book so you can cite yourself. I've been citing my sources where are yours? The wikipedia page shows 20 minutes to 50%, 40 minutes to 80% and 75 minutes to 100%. Maybe I'm missing something but at least I'm showing my work.

Just an honest question here - when the rest of us use terms like Supercharger and L2, do you know what we are talking about? As in, could you describe the difference between the two?

I ask because you seem to use the word supercharger in varying ways, sometimes maybe referring to an L2 charger. 236

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Or even the suggestion that apartments would have to spend "$6000 a pop" to install charging for tenants. Seriously? Where was this figure pulled out of? Maybe don't just make shit up.

It was the first Google hit It's insulting to think that I spent as much time as I did in making sure that my throwaway line "millions" wasn't completely inaccurate only to be accused of not doing any research. 237

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

The last hotel I was in (this past weekend) had outlets outside the building; however, it's illegal to park there & use them as that's a fire lane. The hotel I'm currently in does not have access up against the building (other than the pickup/dropoff checkin/out covered area). While not insurmountable, add the cost to run power lines into the parking lot to create those charging posts.

Did this hotel have streetlights in the parking lot? Then some power has already been run. 238

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Just an honest question here - when the rest of us use terms like Supercharger and L2, do you know what we are talking about? As in, could you describe the difference between the two?

I ask because you seem to use the word supercharger in varying ways, sometimes maybe referring to an L2 charger.

My understanding, and I'm going to do this post without google, is that L1 chargers are the basic home chargers, L2 are the fancier chargers that are also used at like grocery stores and stuff that offer public charging typically to try and draw in EV drivers. Superchargers are specific to tesla who also has mega chargers. Originally you could sign up to get them to put a free supercharger at your facility and put you on a map so tesla divers would come visit you. If you're looking for technical differences no I have no idea. No more than I do that level 5 autonomous driving means that people aren't need and at level 4 someone still has to sit there but I don't know the details.

Honestly, I couldn't tell you where the nearest public charger is as my interest in EVs is purely theoretical. I do know that I've talked a dozen people into EVs in the last year and talked to probably 50 people due to my excitement over the R1T. Getting the range to 400 miles makes a big difference to most people myself included. I think I've showed why that true. 239

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Of course it's millions, at $6000 a pop times hundreds of occupants, which doesn't even count the metering costs. If you want replace that part of the complaint with "my apartment complex didn't want to shell out the millions for additional charging stations once the two-car family became standard."

Originally Posted by Ludovic

It was the first Google hit It's insulting to think that I spent as much time as I did in making sure that my throwaway line "millions" wasn't completely inaccurate only to be accused of not doing any research.

From what I can tell you are the one who brought up the $6,000 outlet. You really seem to be running with the bit but it sure has me confused. 240

[Ravenman]

Yeah, that’s in the ballpark.

So an L1 charger comes with every EV. It plugs into a regular wall outlet and you add about 3 miles of range each hour. This charger is free because you paid for it with your car.

L2 chargers are what the vast majority of EV owners have at home and are also found at hotels, grocery stores, etc. They add about 30 miles of range per hour. An install of this can vary from $500 to $2,500 for a home installation, depending on a ton of factors.

L3 chargers, of which Superchargers are one type, add around 200 miles of charge in about 3 minutes. We are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

So earlier when you talked about installing a supercharger at home, it made zero sense. Literally nobody ever would do such a thing.

The most important point that many people don’t get about EVs is that the driving experience is vastly superior to an equivalent ICE car. Sure, many people think that they absolutely need some number of range. Maybe some do. But I’d bet you that a decent percentage of these people would change their opinions if they tried driving an EV because they are that much better.

To use an analogy, 10 years ago many people would question why they would trade their flip phone with four days of battery life for a smartphone that maybe lasts a day. Today, it’s a no brainer. Most people will trade off more frequent charging for an iPhone to get the vastly superior performance, even if they said at one time that four days of battery life was a MUST HAVE!!!! 241

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Oredigger77

Honestly, I couldn't tell you where the nearest public charger is as my interest in EVs is purely theoretical. I do know that I've talked a dozen people into EVs in the last year and talked to probably 50 people due to my excitement over the R1T. Getting the range to 400 miles makes a big difference to most people myself included. I think I've showed why that true.

If you are going to go with a Rivian R1T, you would definitely do yourself a favor to get acquainted with the charging network near you. It will make your life much easier and fun.

Check out https://www.plugshare.com/ and look up where CCS DC fast charging places are. Figure out where the L2 stations are near you as well. The DC fast chargers will add 200 miles of range in 30 minutes. You seriously should not plan a trip by looking at your total range, and then figuring you need to fully charge on arrival. This is not how you drive an EV. Plan your trip.

You're still thinking like a gasoline truck driver. 242

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Yeah, that’s in the ballpark.

So an L1 charger comes with every EV. It plugs into a regular wall outlet and you add about 3 miles of range each hour. This charger is free because you paid for it with your car.

L2 chargers are what the vast majority of EV owners have at home and are also found at hotels, grocery stores, etc. They add about 30 miles of range per hour. An install of this can vary from $500 to $2,500 for a home installation, depending on a ton of factors.

L3 chargers, of which Superchargers are one type, add around 200 miles of charge in about 3 minutes. We are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

So earlier when you talked about installing a supercharger at home, it made zero sense. Literally nobody ever would do such a thing.

The most important point that many people don’t get about EVs is that the driving experience is vastly superior to an equivalent ICE car. Sure, many people think that they absolutely need some number of range. Maybe some do. But I’d bet you that a decent percentage of these people would change their opinions if they tried driving an EV because they are that much better.

To use an analogy, 10 years ago many people would question why they would trade their flip phone with four days of battery life for a smartphone that maybe lasts a day. Today, it’s a no brainer. Most people will trade off more frequent charging for an iPhone to get the vastly superior performance, even if they said at one time that four days of battery life was a MUST HAVE!!!!

(bold added)

Pretty sure there's a wrong number of zeroes there somewhere. 243

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak

(bold added)

Pretty sure there's a wrong number of zeroes there somewhere.

Oops! I meant 2,000 miles of range in 30 minutes. 244

[Kent Clark]

Now I have another concern. I have 200 amp service to my house. I just looked at my panel, and it's pretty full already - if I'm reading it correctly, I have a single 30 amp slot that isn't already dedicated. That means if I have to have a dedicated circuit I'm limited to a max of 30 amps (and a single slot means 120V, correct?) for a charger.

But a 120V charger seems to be hopelessly inadequate for anything other than topping off. If I have any hope of seriously recharging a low battery overnight, I need 240V and more than 30 amps, correct?

Does that mean I'd need to bridge off an already-dedicated circuit (the one for the electric oven seems to be the biggest, except for the AC)? So I can't use the oven and charge my car at the same time? Do I have to buy a gas oven if I want to have an electric car?

This getting more complicated by each post. 245

[Ruken]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Oops! I meant 2,000 miles of range in 30 minutes.

That doesn't sound right either. 246

[Ravenman]

Fine. 30 miles of range in 2 minutes. That’s my final offer. 247

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Kent Clark

Now I have another concern. I have 200 amp service to my house. I just looked at my panel, and it's pretty full already - if I'm reading it correctly, I have a single 30 amp slot that isn't already dedicated. That means if I have to have a dedicated circuit I'm limited to a max of 30 amps (and a single slot means 120V, correct?) for a charger.

Odds are that a licensed electrician can work this out for you at a reasonable price. The biggest cost would be if you have to run a 240v line to a distant place.

But really, a 30 amp charger would be just fine for most folks. Honestly if an electrician told me it would be $200 to get the 30 amp plug working, or $1,000 to install a 50 amp, I’d take the 30 amp in a heartbeat. No question. 248

[Oredigger77]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

If you are going to go with a Rivian R1T, you would definitely do yourself a favor to get acquainted with the charging network near you. It will make your life much easier and fun.

Check out https://www.plugshare.com/ and look up where CCS DC fast charging places are. Figure out where the L2 stations are near you as well. The DC fast chargers will add 200 miles of range in 30 minutes. You seriously should not plan a trip by looking at your total range, and then figuring you need to fully charge on arrival. This is not how you drive an EV. Plan your trip.

You're still thinking like a gasoline truck driver.

Ya, so the only public charger within 30 min of my house is a J-1772 at a Walgreens the is a block away. Luckily the next closes charger is a CCS at a harley dealer. There isn't a single CCS on the drive to my in-laws though there is a tesla supercharger station on the drive. Are the J-1772 the L2s that will get us 40 miles per hour? I'm not sure I like the mind set of the EV driver of "how do I make this work" rather than my current "what is the fastest way to get from A to B so I can start my vacation". I am excited about the better driving experience particularly the low end torque and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited about doing 0-60 in 3.2 seconds.

Ravenman I talked to my electrician about getting a 3 phase drop to my house for a workshop and a supercharger but the nearest 3 phase is more than a mile away so it was out if my ball park. Particularly if we ever get 2 EVs each of them charging on a 240Vx 50 amp outlet will come very close to maxing out my home's power draw over night (luckily we just upgraded from the original 100 amp max). Being able to charge two cars to max in a little over 2 hours (wiki numbers not yours) is a nice thought and while it may be a niche use being able to come home from vacation with my tank empty and wake up with 600 miles of range in 8 hours is certainly enough for me to justify 240v 100a charging if it exists and I had an EV with a 600 mile range. 249

[Ravenman]

I’m telling you - there is no damn way that anyone in their right mind would install an L3 supercharger at their home. Nobody. Not even Elon Musk would do such a thing. It’s a huge expense with extremely little utility.

A 50 amp, 240 volt circuit for each charger will suit 99.9999% of scenarios for EV owners. I would bet that a 30 amp circuit would suit like 95 percent of charging use.

I’m most certainly not trying to convince you to go out and buy an EV today - it sounds like the technology isn’t there for you to be comfortable with it.

The only point I’m trying to make is that with this new technology, many people have a hard time judging what they need because much of the concept of how you use a car is just fundamentally different, so they have a hard time judging what they actually need.

For example, your scenario of coming home late from a vacation and then needing 600 miles of range by 8 am the next morning. This is such an unrealistic scenario to me: someone comes home from vacation and then immediately needs to take a 10 hour road trip with no possibility of stops for fast charging? I just don’t believe this is a thing. 250