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  #101  
Old 11-17-2019, 09:45 AM
Wendell Wagner is offline
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Here's a chart of the growth of Facebook. It doesn't look to me like something that was once unpopular and is now popular. It looks to me like something that was once unknown to nearly everyone and is now known to nearly everyone in the world with Internet access (and to a lot of people without access to the Internet). I suspect that the curve of growth is an S-curve. This is what happens when some development starts out almost unknown and quickly moves into being known to almost everyone, a slow increase which becomes a fast increase and then becomes again a slow increase:

https://www.statista.com/chart/10047...-active-users/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function
  #102  
Old 11-17-2019, 09:49 AM
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Yeah, but with rap you donít have learn to play an instrument.
  #103  
Old 11-17-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
So, you were growing up after their active period, is what I'm getting. I mean, you were what, 7 when they broke up?
Yes, around there. I'm not sure what your point is, though. Even if they were critically lauded and super-cool here in the US in their heyday, they were not in the 80s and early 90s by music geeks, and sometime by the mid-90s, they had become critically reappraised.

I love Abba, but I don't see how they did not undergo a significant critical reappraisal.

I mean, look at this article here:

Quote:
The first time around, Abba were not taken seriously as artists. The general critical consensus was summed up by a photo of legendary US rock writer Lester Bangs, wearing a T-shirt that read “Abba: the largest-selling group in the history of recorded music” and an expression on his face suggesting this was evidence of western civilisation’s imminent collapse.
That's the attitude I grew up with around here.

And see the subtitle:

Quote:
The Swedish four-piece, returning with new material after 35 years, have seen critics finally acclaim their pop brilliance – but they still aren’t immune from writing turkeys
So I don't think I'm particularly far off here.

Last edited by pulykamell; 11-17-2019 at 09:56 AM.
  #104  
Old 11-17-2019, 10:06 AM
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In a similar vein, but different genre, I've been seeing glimpses of disco over the past decade or so being held in less contempt than it was for the rest of my lifetime. This radio program had a great episode in 2012 basically about how disco does not, in fact, suck. The disco bit is about 30 minutes, so it's still going to end up being a cursory examination, but it's a good listen for the disco naysayers and puts the music and genre and culture in perspective.

Last edited by pulykamell; 11-17-2019 at 10:07 AM.
  #105  
Old 11-17-2019, 11:17 AM
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So, you were growing up after their active period, is what I'm getting. I mean, you were what, 7 when they broke up?
I was in my 20s in the 1970s when they first hit the charts, and they absolutely were regarded as "mindless disposable pop" by anyone who was the least bit hip. Maybe it was different elsewhere in the world, but that was their reputation in the US.

As I said, even in 1994, Muriel's affection for ABBA in Muriel's Wedding showed how un-hip she was:

Quote:
Muriel Heslop, a socially awkward young woman, is the target of ridicule by her shallow and egotistical "friends," Tania, Cheryl, Janine, and Nicole. She spends her time listening to ABBA songs and perpetually daydreams of a glamorous wedding
Also in 1994 ABBA's music was featured in The Adventures of Priscilla, the Queen of the Desert, about two flamboyant drag queens and a transgender woman, where it was included I think because it was regarded as campy.

By the late 1990s and Momma Mia! ABBA was being appreciated unironically more widely.

Last edited by Colibri; 11-17-2019 at 11:19 AM.
  #106  
Old 11-17-2019, 12:30 PM
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I've always been fascinated that punk, disco, and rap all originated in New York at around the same time. (British working class punk was a separate phenomenon.) Here's another set of generalizations for you to pick at. Punk was a bunch of suburban white kids coming to the city and rebelling. Disco was a bunch of gay kids coming from around the country to let loose. Rap was a bunch of black kids already in the city letting their anger out, after an early dance phase. Remember, the late 70s was New York's lowest point, when the city was bankrupt, crime-ridden, filthy, dangerous, and cheap. The perfect place for scenes to develop.

The three music scenes didn't overlap much. It's hard enough for the mainstream to learn about one scene let alone three simultaneous ones in totally different worlds. The rock establishment had spent the last decade fighting an incredibly hard fight to get mainstream rock acknowledged as a true art form. Now, suddenly, three challengers wanted to overturn rock as passe, boring, and out-of-touch with what this new generation wanted. Of course this was going end up in a violent clash. (Hey, that's a good name for a group. The Clashing Pumpkins. Hmm. I'll work on it.)

Rock went from more or less universal to a constellation of tribes. It not only stayed that way but broke up into smaller and smaller fragments. The superpopular artists today are more pop than rock. But rock diehards keep rock, classic rock, at the pinnacle, a losing fight that gets more absurd every year. That's why the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is dominated by classic rock but also lets in a million people that don't do rock, to the scorn of some every time a new list of inductees is announced.

Popular music gets reappraised just about every year by people who weren't the critical age when that music meant everything to a certain group. That's good and bad. Nothing in your life will ever be equal to being 13 when the Beatles made their first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show and ruled radio for the next year. How does anyone discount that feeling or the later equivalent ones to look at the music "objectively"? Every word needs to be taken with a pound of salt. Ask me again in a hundred years.

This approach also implies that pop music is the universe that rock is just a subset of. Imagine a Pop Music Hall of Fame, though. It would have almost exactly the same set of inductees as the RnRHoF does. In our world it couldn't exist, because it couldn't be taken seriously. All because "rock" won the critical acclaim. Maybe in that hundred years pop will bump rock aside because Taylor Swift and J-Lo and Adele and lots of Korean boy bands will be the only ones remembered. And reappraised.
  #107  
Old 11-17-2019, 12:38 PM
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I'll give a couple, but these are only for me personally:

Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - I was kind of "meh" on this movie when I saw it initially. I liked it, but did not think it was a great movie in anyway. I have now seen it several times on Netflix and other streaming services and it has grown tremendously in my view. It's a great movie and one of the best Star Wars movies. I think the movie just benefits from seeing it many times and it just didn't deliver a huge "wow" factor in the theater. I owe both the director and Disney(who tinkered with it a lot) an apology and a pat on the back. They did a great job.

Timeline - this movie from with Paul Walker, for those who forgot it. My wife and I loved it, thought it was a really great movie. We re-watched it a few years later and realized...yeah, it is really crappy. Honestly, we could not believe the two of us liked it and we both agreed that we were just flat-out wrong. It's terrible, boring, and a total mess.
  #108  
Old 11-17-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I've always been fascinated that punk, disco, and rap all originated in New York at around the same time. (British working class punk was a separate phenomenon.) Here's another set of generalizations for you to pick at. Punk was a bunch of suburban white kids coming to the city and rebelling. Disco was a bunch of gay kids coming from around the country to let loose. Rap was a bunch of black kids already in the city letting their anger out, after an early dance phase. Remember, the late 70s was New York's lowest point, when the city was bankrupt, crime-ridden, filthy, dangerous, and cheap. The perfect place for scenes to develop.
Lots I disagree with here....punk was in full force in Lima, Peru https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...in-cinema-peru long before it appeared in NYC. Punk was bigger and more influential in SoCal than NYC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock_in_California and disco was not about gay kids; it was about partying, drugs and lots of unprotected sex of any kind. Rap was about a whole lot more than anger, including the first rap hit; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKTUAESacQM and most popular rap isnt about themes of anger at all.
  #109  
Old 11-17-2019, 06:27 PM
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To quote noted music commentator Weird Al Yankovic - covering Nirvana -
Yet another artist who was written off as a one-hit novelty artist for "Another One Rides The Bus" and yet continues to crank 'em out 40 years later!

This comic appeared in my local newspaper 2 weeks ago. Loved it! (And who would have thought at the time that the DRUMMER was the real musician in the band?

https://www.arcamax.com/thefunnies/t...ries/s-2289942

My brother was a college DJ in the late 1980s, and when "Nevermind" hit #1 in just about every nation on earth that keeps a music chart, I asked him if he ever played anything from their low-budget debut, "Bleach." He replied that he did, and if a time traveler had come to him from the fall of 1991 to tell him that this band would release an album that would totally turn popular music on its ear, he'd have told them they were nuts.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 11-17-2019 at 06:29 PM.
  #110  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:02 PM
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...Jennifer's Body. Along with redemption for Megan Fox.
  #111  
Old 11-17-2019, 07:41 PM
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...Jennifer's Body. Along with redemption for Megan Fox.
Anyone ever seen Jennifer's Body? I had not even heard of it.
  #112  
Old 11-17-2019, 09:41 PM
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Lots I disagree with here....punk was in full force in Lima, Peru https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...in-cinema-peru long before it appeared in NYC. Punk was bigger and more influential in SoCal than NYC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock_in_California and disco was not about gay kids; it was about partying, drugs and lots of unprotected sex of any kind. Rap was about a whole lot more than anger, including the first rap hit; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKTUAESacQM and most popular rap isnt about themes of anger at all.
I told myself I wasn't going to respond to nitpickers, but this is too silly to let stand for a moment.

Assuming whatever happened in Peru was punk, it didn't have any influence on U.S. punk.

But SoCal punk definitely came from NYC punk, according to your own link.

Quote:
Starting in 1976, following recent releases of recordings by punk bands such as the Ramones, a number of punk bands formed in the Los Angeles and Orange County area.
Wiki also says, about disco and gays:
Quote:
"New York City was the primary center of disco, and the original audience was primarily gay African Americans and Latinos."
And I explicitly said that dance rap came first.

0 for 4.

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 11-17-2019 at 09:41 PM.
  #113  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:01 AM
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I love Abba, but I don't see how they did not undergo a significant critical reappraisal.
I would have no problem if this was phrased as a re-reappraissal.
Quote:

I mean, look at this article here:
Quote:
The first time around, Abba were not taken seriously as artists.
So I don't think I'm particularly far off here.
I don't trust an article written in 2018, and citing as major evidence a photo of Lester fucking Bangs, to be very accurate on what the 70s pop critical zeitgeist was.
Bangs was a drug-addled rockist. And a shit critic. Post some actual 70s pop criticism.

Or don't, since that's irrelevant, as I wasn't claiming they were critically lauded. Just that they were, and I quote, "immensely popular" so certainly weren't a guilty pleasure in their heyday. People don't line the streets for their guilty pleasure. People were quite openly ABBA fans, in vast numbers...
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
that was their reputation in the US.
...except in the US, where they were never quite as big. Still sold out their tours, mind, but not quite as big as elsewhere.
  #114  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:08 AM
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The three music scenes didn't overlap much.
Slight quibble - disco samples were a big part of early hip-hop.
  #115  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:48 AM
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Or don't, since that's irrelevant, as I wasn't claiming they were critically lauded. Just that they were, and I quote, "immensely popular" so certainly weren't a guilty pleasure in their heyday.
They were quite popular here in the US, and I am not arguing with that in any way. I grew up very much on ABBA, and it was the soundtrack of my early childhood. But the OP is about critical reappraisals, not mass popularity. Art criticis are mostly elitist and snobbish. If you want to be more specific, I wouldn't call it a re-reappraisal, but rather put it as "in rock music criticism circles, ABBA experienced a critical reappraisal." The rockists of the 70s turned into poptimists somewhere around the mid-90s to 00s.

Quote:
People don't line the streets for their guilty pleasure. People were quite openly ABBA fans, in vast numbers...
I think we're straying into some kind of philosophical and/or definitional argument here. One can draw gigantic crowds and still be a "guilty pleasure" to critics and those who consider themselves music aficionados, just like McD's draws billions of people and it'd be a "guilty pleasure" to most food aficionados. It's not We can argue about the elitism of this, but of course critics are largely elitist snobs.

Last edited by pulykamell; 11-18-2019 at 07:53 AM.
  #116  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
If you want to be more specific, I wouldn't call it a re-reappraisal, but rather put it as "in rock music criticism circles, ABBA experienced a critical reappraisal." [...]
I think we're straying into some kind of philosophical and/or definitional argument here. One can draw gigantic crowds and still be a "guilty pleasure" to critics and those who consider themselves music aficionados, just like McD's draws billions of people and it'd be a "guilty pleasure" to most food aficionados. It's not We can argue about the elitism of this, but of course critics are largely elitist snobs.
OK, I see better what you mean, now, and I agree.
  #117  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:18 AM
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OK, I see better what you mean, now, and I agree.
Yeah, I also feel that culturally there's been a shift over the last twenty years ago or so, starting with the Millennial generation and beyond mostly to have a much wider appreciation of music and musical genres. Music doesn't seem quite as "cliquish" to me as it was when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. Like, if you were into Metallica and Maiden, you wouldn't want to tell your friends that you unironically enjoy Paula Abdul, for example. Now, I get the sense you can be into niche music, but it's almost cooler to admit that you love mainstream pop acts. The whole idea of "guilty pleasure" has been minimized (and I think that's a good thing.) It amazed me when I joined a local music board in the early-to-mid-00s. to see how open everyone was in their musical tastes. The same kids who loved Can and Wire and Radiohead and Shellac, etc., were open about loving Kylie Minogue, Kelis, Justin Timberlake, etc. This was so very different than the vibe for me growing up. And it was encouraging.
  #118  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:20 AM
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Yeah, I also feel that culturally there's been a shift over the last twenty years ago or so, starting with the Millennial generation and beyond mostly to have a much wider appreciation of music and musical genres. Music doesn't seem quite as "cliquish" to me as it was when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. Like, if you were into Metallica and Maiden, you wouldn't want to tell your friends that you unironically enjoy Paula Abdul, for example. Now, I get the sense you can be into niche music, but it's almost cooler to admit that you love mainstream pop acts. The whole idea of "guilty pleasure" has been minimized (and I think that's a good thing.) It amazed me when I joined a local music board in the early-to-mid-00s. to see how open everyone was in their musical tastes. The same kids who loved Can and Wire and Radiohead and Shellac, etc., were open about loving Kylie Minogue, Kelis, Justin Timberlake, etc. This was so very different than the vibe for me growing up. And it was encouraging.
Yeah. Back when I was in college, a friend of mine was in mixed relationship. He liked the Psychedelic Furs and bands of that ilk and his girlfriend liked Springsteen - and I swear it was like the Sharks and the Jets between them.
  #119  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:28 AM
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Charles Bukowski struggled for years for any kind of recognition. He was mostly just ignored in the United States. He mainly wrote for underground newspapers and magazines...hundreds and hundreds of short stories and poems.
  #120  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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Slight quibble - disco samples were a big part of early hip-hop.
Where I said "scenes" I meant that the clubs were physically separate and attracted different audiences, making it harder for the outsiders to experience what was at first a live music experience. Some people no doubt went to multiple clubs and some musicians no doubt appreciated other musicians.
  #121  
Old 11-18-2019, 11:19 AM
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The initial reviews for The Big Bang Theory were negative. The nerd falls for pretty girl meme has been done to death, and the critics did not think the show would last.

They were wrong.
  #122  
Old 11-18-2019, 12:14 PM
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I didn't see it when it was in the theaters, but when I did see it several years later, I understood why so many people didn't like it, which was why I didn't pay money to see it while it was in cinematic release.

I loved it, but yeah, the reason so many people didn't like it was because they were LIVING it.

Looks like it's still doing really well overall on Rotten Tomatoes:

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/american_beauty
  #123  
Old 11-18-2019, 03:12 PM
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They were wrong.
Tragically.
  #124  
Old 11-19-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I've always been fascinated that punk, disco, and rap all originated in New York at around the same time. (British working class punk was a separate phenomenon.) Here's another set of generalizations for you to pick at. Punk was a bunch of suburban white kids coming to the city and rebelling. Disco was a bunch of gay kids coming from around the country to let loose. Rap was a bunch of black kids already in the city letting their anger out, after an early dance phase. Remember, the late 70s was New York's lowest point, when the city was bankrupt, crime-ridden, filthy, dangerous, and cheap. The perfect place for scenes to develop.
Punk was primarily reactionary. I mean, I'll quote one of the earliest auteurs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ramones, "Do You Remember Rock 'n' Roll Radio?"
Do you remember Murray the K,
Alan Freed, and high energy?
It's the end, the end of the 70's
It's the end, the end of the century

Do you remember lying in bed
With your covers pulled up over your head?
Radio playin' so no one can see
We need change, we need it fast
Before rock's just part of the past
'Cause lately it all sounds the same to me
Oh oh oh oh, oh oh
The Ramones were the Rockettes without any of that obnoxious "technical chops" crap. They made old-fashioned pop songs... pop songs on speed and without anything like social graces, but there's definitely more in common between "Blitzkrieg Bop" and "Rock Around The Clock" than there is between it and most of what King Crimson made, or Pink Floyd's later period. They were a bunch of angry weirdos (Joey especially) pushing back against jazz and classical music infecting their dance music, and turning it into dirges in the dark, as the poet once said. Even the Brits understood that well enough for the Clash to rip off Elvis for the cover of London Calling.

Anyway. Punk was rock'n'roll merged with anarchism, the idea that anyone could have a hit record... which merges right neatly to whatever Asexual Weirdo said that everyone would be famous for fifteen minutes. It ties into a mythology, the Great American Garage Band, a bunch of (straight, White, male) teens getting together and making the Next Big Thing without needing anything but their middle-class allowance and enough Third Space to practice without being shot. The equivalent to that now is... uh... Soundcloud Rappers, who can become the Next Big Thing with a laptop and an Internet connection.

Punk, disco, and rap all came out of the same cultural ferment. Punk got held up as the legitimate child of New York City 1977, but it was, ultimately, reactionary and backwards-looking. Disco, the gay music, was violently Demolished in a public orgy. Rap was ghettoized. How the worms all turn around on their little turntables, eh?
  #125  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:07 PM
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Regarding ABBA: I have also heard that they started to be taken seriously when artists who thought they had at least moderate musical proficiency tried to cover their songs as a joke, and found out they couldn't play them. Oh, they could play the simplified versions, but that wasn't what they wanted to do.
  #126  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:28 PM
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ABBA were one of SNL's earliest musical guests; how dreadfully uncool could they have been in their glory days?
  #127  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:52 PM
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ABBA were one of SNL's earliest musical guests; how dreadfully uncool could they have been in their glory days?
Well, the season also included Lily Tomlin performing "I Got You Babe" with Scred and the Muppets.
  #128  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:40 AM
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That SNL appearance treated ABBA as a complete joke, splashing water on them while they lip-synched (according to that SNL oral history book, writer Michael O'Donoghue hated them and this was his idea).
  #129  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:35 AM
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That SNL appearance treated ABBA as a complete joke, splashing water on them while they lip-synched (according to that SNL oral history book, writer Michael O'Donoghue hated them and this was his idea).
As far as I can tell, despite their commercial popularity in the 1970s, that was their only SNL appearance. How cool could they have been if they were never invited for a "real" appearance?

Last edited by Colibri; 11-20-2019 at 10:35 AM.
  #130  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:55 PM
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What about Vertigo? IIRC when it was released it was considered a pretty good Hitchcock film at best. Since then its reputation has soared to IMO baffling levels, where it is considered a towering pinnacle of world cinema.
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