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Old 11-24-2019, 10:28 AM
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It's ugly beyond belief. A Homer-mobile. I can appreciate the flat-surface aesthetics to some extent (Subaru XT, Zumwalt-class ships), and I understand that the rear "sail" plays a role in hauling, but the roof doesn't make sense and there is no reason to have non-round wheel wells.

Many men in rural areas of the U.S. and Canada are really attached to the pickup truck for some reason, even those who have no use for it. That's not going to change in the next few years. So I want at least some of those men to want an electric pickup truck. To find it attractive, look at the numbers, weigh the pros and cons, eventually get over their range anxiety and think of buying one. Tesla had very little chance to make this happen anyway (because they can't sell vehicles in many of those U.S. states), but this sends the message that it's not possible to make a desirable electric pickup truck.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:35 AM
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VW bug was ugly but people bought those.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:40 AM
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I've read the stainless is a bitch to stamp, especially 3mm thick stainless,
it can be, depending on grade and how deeply you want to draw it. Work hardening can be an issue (can be with aluminum as well.) But I've got a drawer in the kitchen full of items stamped out of ~3mm thick stainless steel. Probably 18/10.

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which is why the Delorean had simple stamping dies and likely why the design of this is so angular.
welp, the DeLorean was angular because that was the style of "exotics" in the '80s. Plus it's body was primarily fiberglass, the stainless panels were more or less a "skin" over them.

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But, and I cannot stress this enough, this is not a money saving endeavor. Every automaker on the planet can crank out stamped steal panels, have them painted, and slap them on a $18,000 vehicle while still making a profit. Any problem caused by using 3mm stainless that needed an angular design to be solved could also have been solved at much less expense but just not using a stupid material for the body skin in the first place. Nobody needs their vehicle skin to take an impact with a sledgehammer.
That's why I'm still struggling to understand what customer this thing was designed for. having a bunch of people on the internet say "whoa that's cool" doesn't mean you're going to have a lot of buyers for an "out there" $50,000 vehicle.

and I have to LOL at the people saying "this is the truck for Mars." there's no way this thing would operate for very long on Mars once the radiation does a number on its electronics.

Last edited by jz78817; 11-24-2019 at 10:43 AM.
  #54  
Old 11-24-2019, 11:12 AM
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VW bug was ugly but people bought those.
1935 Ford coupe. vs 1935 VW Bug designed by Porsche. It was far from ugly when it came out.

Granted as the yeas went buy it became a cult car because the style didn't keep up but it sold as a cheap economy car until the world caught up to it and made better economy cars.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:19 AM
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I would had that My brother had one when he was young. What a horrible car. It was slow, loud, smelly, cold and the gear shift was seriously loose.

I really miss it.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:28 AM
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That's why I'm still struggling to understand what customer this thing was designed for. having a bunch of people on the internet say "whoa that's cool" doesn't mean you're going to have a lot of buyers for an "out there" $50,000 vehicle.
this has "off-roader" written all over it. I can easily imagine someone buying it and customizing the crap out of it. If you can just get Tina Turner to stand in the bed of it as you drive it would be perfect.

Also, given Tesla customer's problems it might be a great selling point to have a car that that can hit something larger than a butterfly and not be down for 6 months waiting on repair.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:30 AM
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yeah, the Beetle didn't look out of place when it was launched here, no uglier than anything the domestic car companies were making in the 1950s. VW just never updated it much. Being cheap and cheerful was its selling point.
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Old 11-24-2019, 12:57 PM
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If the Cybertruck catches on, it'll be because it appeals to younger buyers. The older generation is pretty much married to their F-150s, Silverados and Rams. Even Japanese makers, no matter how good their trucks, have trouble making large inroads into that market. They just have too much brand loyalty.

Now I'm not saying it will catch on among younger buyers; it's just that it might. But at first it's going to be bought by Tesla-fanbois. After that market is saturated, if it still has sales it'll be because younger buyers want to do something different than their parents.

Last edited by dtilque; 11-24-2019 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 01:26 PM
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It's ugly beyond belief. A Homer-mobile.
Oh, so apt!

Re: VW Bug (original). It was a cheap car. The cheapness meant certain economies were made in building it and that was reflected in the original product. People accepted the ugliness to save a lot of money.

Tesla doesn't make cheap cars. Entirely different markets.

(The revived Beetle always baffled me. Take a Cabriolet and round the corners reducing passenger and storage space. Charge more. And people bought this because ???)
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:49 PM
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there's no way this thing would operate for very long on Mars once the radiation does a number on its electronics.
That's obviously a bit of Muskian hyperbole, but the electronics aspect isn't really an issue. SpaceX has tremendous experience in designing radiation-resistant electronics. They use off the shelf components and then many-way redundancy to avoid the inevitable bit errors. It's way, way cheaper than using straight rad-hardened stuff (sapphire substrate, etc.) and you get to use modern components instead of stuff designed decades ago.

The giant flat glass sheets are a bigger problem. In terms of pressure, Mars might as well be a vacuum. Flat glass doesn't have that sort of strength. But that's a solvable problem (use less glass, put in reinforcement stringers, etc).
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:00 PM
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100%. Saying "then you fold it up like origami" sorta glosses over the fact that you need a giant hydraulic machine to "fold up" 3mm stainless.
That's still a far smaller machine than a stamping press. Even for mild steel, stamping presses are the size of a small building. Folding stainless, especially with milled notches at the seam, is nothing in comparison.

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But, and I cannot stress this enough, this is not a money saving endeavor. Every automaker on the planet can crank out stamped steal panels, have them painted, and slap them on a $18,000 vehicle while still making a profit.
The way I see it, it's not marginal cost so much as capital cost. Tesla has one factory at the moment doing bodies. Another, in China, is about to come online, but it's already going to be saturated with Model 3 and Model Y production.

If you're GM or Toyota or whoever and already own dozens of factories, it's no problem to repurpose one for a new model. Tesla doesn't have that luxury. Building out a new factory just for a truck would be a huge step change, and one they likely can't afford with their expected growth in other areas.

The batteries are different. The Cybertruck needs a shitload of them, but Tesla already has a battery factory with plenty of room for incremental growth. That can just scale up with their other production, including industrial energy storage. And the more cells/packs they produce, the cheaper they get.
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:49 AM
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Well I'm one of the weirdos who ordered one.

Amusing that comparisons have been made to the Gen1 Honda Ridgeline. I have one of those too
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:04 AM
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VW bug was ugly but people bought those.
Beetles were ugly, but they were also cute. Like pugs.
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:03 AM
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I think it’s pretty ugly, but I also know that styles change.
I remember the first time I saw the new BMW 300 series sports cars in 2000 or so - I laughed out loud! It looked like someone had kicked it in the ass.
But, that style soon became “normal,” and it didn’t look ridiculous anymore.
I told a friend about the Cybertruck that it looks the way today's normal cars look as compared with ones from the 60s, with their overabundance of unnecessary trim, curves, fins, chrome bling etc etc.
The minimalist design is a decade or two ahead the current curve of traditional car manufacturers, which may or may not spur them to go in that direction faster.
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Old 11-27-2019, 06:56 AM
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having a bunch of people on the internet say "whoa that's cool" doesn't mean you're going to have a lot of buyers for an "out there" $50,000 vehicle.
If Musk is to be believed (I know!), they already have 250 000 pre-orders.

I don't know if that's "a lot" or not.

Last edited by MrDibble; 11-27-2019 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:03 AM
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If Musk is to be believed (I know!), they already have 250 000 pre-orders.

I don't know if that's "a lot" or not.
A $100 refundable deposit is pretty much a “throwaway” expenditure.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:27 AM
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A $100 refundable deposit is pretty much a “throwaway” expenditure.
It's still the only metric for "buyers" we have.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:53 AM
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It's ugly. But the specs are decent. I'm in the market for a new vehicle. I've added it to my list. I suppose i should toss them the deposit.
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:33 AM
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Even though it is a horribly ugly machine, I do agree with Tesla fans that it is priced very well. Ford's electric F-150 should be available in roughly the same timeframe as Cybertrkkk, so I guess the gauntlet has been thrown to make Ford price its offering competitively.
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:35 AM
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It's ugly. But the specs are decent. I'm in the market for a new vehicle. I've added it to my list. I suppose i should toss them the deposit.
Depending on your definition of "in the market." This won't be available until 2022 at the earliest...
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:47 AM
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Yeah, I've been "in the market" for a couple years, now. I would like to buy something before then, but I might not find something I like.

I will say, I would be buying it as an SUV, not as a pickup truck. I don't see how it works as a pick up. But it looks like a decent SUV.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:21 AM
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Even though it is a horribly ugly machine, I do agree with Tesla fans that it is priced very well. Ford's electric F-150 should be available in roughly the same timeframe as Cybertrkkk, so I guess the gauntlet has been thrown to make Ford price its offering competitively.
I just wish Tesla fans would quit talking about all of the "specs" of this thing as if they actually know what they are (e.g. how much it weighs, how much it'll cost to build, etc.) The comment threads on Ars Technica about this thing are unbelievable. Especially the "I don't really need a truck but I put a deposit on one" people.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:35 AM
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I just wish Tesla fans would quit talking about all of the "specs" of this thing as if they actually know what they are (e.g. how much it weighs, how much it'll cost to build, etc.) The comment threads on Ars Technica about this thing are unbelievable. Especially the "I don't really need a truck but I put a deposit on one" people.
If it had the exact same specs but had a gas engine those same people would be rolling their eyes at this thing the same way people rolled their eyes at the Hummer H2. It's a big impractical vehicle that wastes energy, is by no means good for the environment, and isn't particularly useful, but because this one is electric it somehow is exempt from the ridicule that a bulletproof natural gas guzzler SHOULD get.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:47 AM
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If it had the exact same specs but had a gas engine those same people would be rolling their eyes at this thing the same way people rolled their eyes at the Hummer H2. It's a big impractical vehicle that wastes energy, is by no means good for the environment, and isn't particularly useful, but because this one is electric it somehow is exempt from the ridicule that a bulletproof natural gas guzzler SHOULD get.
the shape makes it difficult to do a real good comparison, but looking at it vs. a crew cab F-150 makes me think it might have trouble fitting in a lot of garages.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:56 AM
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By all accounts it's the size of an F-250, it's huge. I wonder how many of these "non-truck" people understand what it's like to actually drive around in an F-250.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:00 PM
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Yeah, looking at the footprint, I'm taking it over my list again. Too damn big. I was thinking "like a minivan", but i think it's a lot larger.
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:43 PM
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If it had the exact same specs but had a gas engine those same people would be rolling their eyes at this thing the same way people rolled their eyes at the Hummer H2. It's a big impractical vehicle that wastes energy, is by no means good for the environment, and isn't particularly useful, but because this one is electric it somehow is exempt from the ridicule that a bulletproof natural gas guzzler SHOULD get.
I thought the same thing about those king cab trucks with almost no bed. They're very popular for towing boats and such. Instead of getting 15-20 mpg they would be getting the equivalent of maybe 70 mpg. An economy car that can haul 6 and tow a boat has a market. Slap some wild paint job on it and it's Ed Begley Junior's personal urban assault vehicle.

Now put on one of those advertising wraps and the electricity is paid for.

Honestly I think it's beyond ugly but I think it will sell. It comes down to whether a short-bed market wants something this.... unique. It certainly brings a lot of utility value.
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:44 PM
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Oh, and there's no law that says the actual vehicle has to look like the concept version. They rarely do.
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:22 PM
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but because this one is electric it somehow is exempt from the ridicule that a bulletproof natural gas guzzler SHOULD get.
I'm not seeing the contradiction. The difference is literally in the mocking name: gas guzzlers burn precious fossil fuels and emit nasty pollution, harming both people and the climate. Take that away and there's nothing legitimate to complain about.

When I see some idiot in a lifted F-150 commuting to his tech job, I don't actually care about the totally unused bed or the terrible aerodynamics. I care that he's amplified his role in climate change by like 3x in exchange for essentially nothing. If the monster truck is instead powered largely by low- or no- carbon energy sources? Maybe the truck is still a little ridiculous but no more so than any other hobby I don't care about.

In California, the Cybertruck should emit less carbon per mile than pretty much any conventional gas car, even tiny commuter cars. Some parts of the country are not quite as good but if a conventional truck owners switches, it's still a net win for the climate.
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:25 PM
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Oh, and there's no law that says the actual vehicle has to look like the concept version. They rarely do.
Aside from minor things like side-view mirrors (which is more a regulatory thing at this point), Teslas look like their concept versions. The Model X has its Falcon Wing doors, and the Model 3 shipped with the zero-grille nose and the minimalist interior.

I'm sure ther'll be a few minor tweaks here and there (the Model X lost the nosecone between concept and shipping), but we're definitely getting a super-angular stainless steel Cybertruck.
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:39 PM
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the shape makes it difficult to do a real good comparison, but looking at it vs. a crew cab F-150 makes me think it might have trouble fitting in a lot of garages.
According to this page, it has dimensions of 231.7"L x 79.8"W x 75"H. And according to this page, and F-150 Supercrew with 6.5' bed has dimensions 243.7"L x 79.9"W x 75.7"H (without mirrors).

So pretty much identical aside from the length, where the F-150 is about a foot longer. The F-150 Supercab is 231.9" long, which makes it almost exactly the same as the Cybertruck, but given the cab-forward design of the Cybertruck, interior space is probably comparable (superior, even) to the Supercrew. Or, Supercrew+5.5' bed is also 231", but the Cybertruck has a 6.5' bed.

At any rate, they're all big trucks. Not quite F-250 big, though. Also, I don't know if the 75" height is the minimum. It might be able to go lower to squeeze into a garage.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:02 AM
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the shape makes it difficult to do a real good comparison, but looking at it vs. a crew cab F-150 makes me think it might have trouble fitting in a lot of garages.
Oh, you don't park it in your present garage. You'll redesign your house to match...
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:05 AM
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Oh, you don't park it in your present garage. You'll redesign your house to match...
Golf clap.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:07 AM
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I'd live there... Nice views.
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Old 11-28-2019, 11:04 AM
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I'm not seeing the contradiction.
because it appeals to the desire to project a dominating or intimidating appearance, same as lifted bro-dozers. except this time it's appealing to anti-social geeks instead of anti-social suburban wannabe rednecks.
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Old 11-28-2019, 11:51 AM
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I'm not seeing the contradiction. The difference is literally in the mocking name: gas guzzlers burn precious fossil fuels and emit nasty pollution, harming both people and the climate. Take that away and there's nothing legitimate to complain about.
That's precisely the point I'm challenging. Even in sunny California or Arizona, electricity production has an environmental impact. Transmission lines and equipment, solar panel or wind turbine production, etc. These are all things that wear out and have to be produced, shipped, repaired and replaced, and a lot of those steps involve burning fossil fuels. Lithium has to be mined at great environmental expense. Here in Ohio, any Cybertrucks that sell are going to be powered mostly by fracked natural gas.

I'm not trying to trot out the same tired arguments against electric cars in general, I understand they're important evolutionary step in green transportation. But any vehicle that's 30% larger than it needs to be is 30% more wasteful than it needs to be, regardless of how it's powered. An H2 burned 30% more gas and was ridiculed for it, even though in the grand scheme of things H2s don't make a world of difference to the environment. They just didn't sell a lot and the ones that were didn't exactly rack up the miles. But people still hated them for what they represented - - waste. Why should something as ridiculous as a 6500lb Cybertruck escape the same ridicule just because its environmental impact is more subtle?
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:37 PM
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A vote against the name by a naming expert.
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Old 11-29-2019, 02:19 AM
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because it appeals to the desire to project a dominating or intimidating appearance, same as lifted bro-dozers. except this time it's appealing to anti-social geeks instead of anti-social suburban wannabe rednecks.
I get that... but so what? 95% of what others are interested in is a complete mystery to me, and this kind of peacocking behavior is close to the top of that list. So sure, at some level it bugs me, but I don't really care unless they're damaging the rest of us. Oil burners cause massive damage through climate change and other externalities. An oversized EV truck is much less damaging in that respect.

Maybe you're coming in with the assumption that the Cybertruck is completely worthless as a utilitarian vehicle. If that were true I'd be more sympathetic to the argument, but I'd strongly dispute the premise. It's obviously not going to replace the F-150 line but it's going to have some very handy applications. I think the roll-down bed cover alone is going to be a really desirable feature in some construction situations where equipment theft is a big problem.
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Old 11-29-2019, 02:47 AM
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I'm not trying to trot out the same tired arguments against electric cars in general, I understand they're important evolutionary step in green transportation.
You're using the same form of argument, though: qualitative, not quantitative. I don't dispute that a lot of (maybe even most of) the people driving the Cybertruck won't actually need it for any utilitarian need, and most of the rest would still be better served by Home Depot truck rentals and the like. Nevertheless, I only really care if they're causing disproportionate damage. If they're causing less damage than a Prius, then it's still the gas holdouts that need to be convinced, not the people driving bigger EVs than they need.

So how bad is it, actually? This page lists CO2 per kWh for various areas. In particular, we can look at the US average (0.98 lbs/kWh), CA avg (0.5 lbs/kWh), and PG&E (the big Silicon Valley producer, with 0.16 lbs/kWh).

Tesla hasn't reported Cybertruck efficiency, but I think we can expect it to be somewhat worse than the Model X. 450 Wh/mi is probably reasonable (maybe 400 on efficient tires, but I doubt we can count on that on average). Supposing the average 13,000 miles per year, we have:
US avg: 5733 lbs CO2/year
CA avg: 2925 lbs/year
PG&E: 936 lbs/year

Now consider a 55 mpg Prius. That's 236 gallons per year, and at 20 lbs/gal, 4727 lbs/year. So, the Cybertruck is a bit worse than a Prius for average US power, but a lot better in CA, and much better in PG&E land (let alone all the local carbon-free energy producers).

Consider instead a 20 mpg F-150. It's emitting 13,000 lbs of CO2 per year. If you can convince just one Californian F-150 driver to switch to a Cybertruck, it's like taking two full Priuses off the road completely. It's an insane difference in emissions.

CO2 of course isn't the entire impact of big trucks, but I'd say it's by far the most important one. The raw materials of the Cybertruck should be easily recycled (like most cars these days). I'm hoping we'll see a robust economy in repurposing older vehicle cells into stationary storage where they don't mind a slightly reduced energy density. And then there's the increased threat to other road users from having such a massive vehicle, but overall Tesla produces vehicles with advanced collision prevention systems, so hopefully that'll take the edge off.

In short, if CO2 is the big ticket item we care about, then getting people to switch to an EV at all is by far the most important thing one can do. If some people take bribing with EV monster trucks, so be it. I'll worry about downsizing those after everyone is on board with EVs.
  #90  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:22 PM
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I will now oppose the CbrTrk and all EVs. Humanity needs more high-pollutin', rootin'-tootin', poison-shootin' demon trucks, yes indeed. We NEED to befoul Terra so much that desperate humanity claws for the stars and conquers the universe... before the next extinction event here. Clean vehicles won't drive us to escape off-planet. Musk will leave us sitting ducks for the next big asteroid strike, long overdue.

We can prevent this. High-sulfur diesel fuel in dirty engines will save us. More VWs and BMWs! More soot and smog! Burn down more forests! CbrTrk fleets can quietly convoy the ashes to a school playground near you. Be sure to charge batteries from coal-fired power plants.
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:27 PM
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Whatever. Let people trade in their Model 3s for Cybertrucks. Doesn't matter to me.
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Old 11-30-2019, 03:32 AM
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Whatever. Let people trade in their Model 3s for Cybertrucks. Doesn't matter to me.
As long as there are reasonable numbers also trading in their full-size trucks, I'll take the trade.

Well, we'll find out in a couple of years. Tesla has made no secret of their trade-in numbers in the past. The top trade-in for the Model 3 was a Prius. Ok, another eco-mobile--big deal. But #2 is the BMW 3 series. And that's really fantastic news, since it's attracting buyers outside of the usual eco circles.

If even a few tens of percent of Cybertruck buyers are trading in big oil burning trucks (or truck frame SUVs), I'll consider that a huge environmental win. And hopefully Rivian and others can take up the rest of the market.
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:39 PM
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My husband and I work in construction. We currently have a little hatchback toyota scion, and and big stinky diesel f250 (7.3 engine.) Both have big dents from being in construction areas, so the person upthread who thought it was silly that these things would be designed to take a sledge-hammer blow...yeah, that would be great.

We aren't in the market for a new truck right now, but this would be a definite contender if we were. We need the truck for towing capacity and general hauling of lumber and saws and all that shit, but I hate driving the F250. I really don't care what the thing looks like, only what it can do. Having usable outlets in the bed is awesome, towing capacity sounds great, long-ish bed...I like it.
  #94  
Old 11-30-2019, 01:47 PM
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The Cybertruck is not as the ugly as the Aztek. I think it’s good that someone is trying to make an affordable electric truck. I’m less sure that this will actually be made, given Musk’s love of mischief. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to use metal which is hard to shape. And the lack of give might not be good for collision safety tests. I’m sure there is a market for a futuristic truck and real armour proof glass.
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  #95  
Old 11-30-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika View Post
The Cybertruck is not as the ugly as the Aztek. I think it’s good that someone is trying to make an affordable electric truck. I’m less sure that this will actually be made, given Musk’s love of mischief. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to use metal which is hard to shape. And the lack of give might not be good for collision safety tests. I’m sure there is a market for a futuristic truck and real armour proof glass.
there's a lot about this thing that doesn't make sense, but the faithful will scoff at idiots who don't see its "obvious" brilliance.
  #96  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:55 AM
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And the lack of give might not be good for collision safety tests.
There are several orders of magnitude difference in kinetic energy between a 10 lb deadblow hammer vs. a vehicle collision. 3 mm stainless will still crumple like so much tinfoil if designed to. Just like every other modern car, the Cybertruck will clearly have internal energy dissipation elements--beams that deform in a controlled way, etc. Demos of the Cybertruck's dent resistance have essentially nothing to do with its collision safety.

Tesla has never skimped on their cars' safety in the past, and I see no evidence that they're about to start.
  #97  
Old 12-02-2019, 04:17 PM
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The facts come out; it's really made of mashed potatoes.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:34 PM
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The facts come out; it's really made of mashed potatoes.
I am saddened that CNN reported on that.

Lots of things in life sadden me, come to think of it.
  #99  
Old 12-04-2019, 09:59 AM
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The facts come out; it's really made of mashed potatoes.
I think it was foolish of him to build it with the ramp down. How are you supposed to contain all the gravy and butter?
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  #100  
Old 12-04-2019, 10:24 AM
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Someone suggested modifying the roofline of the Cybertruck so that the part above the rear passenger seats is horizontal. The linked page has Photoshopped images showing the difference. It does improve the look of the vehicle somewhat and improves headroom for anyone sitting in the backseat. (It might also allow people to mount stuff more easily to the roof.)
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