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Old 11-24-2019, 02:15 PM
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This has to stop: extreme actions at political gathering


An Antifa guy tried blocking someoneís car, smacks the car with a bat or pipe. It did not end well for him.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/201...ell-seriously/

Canít we discuss civilly? Protest civilly? Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly?
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:18 PM
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An Antifa guy tried blocking someoneís car, smacks the car with a bat or pipe. It did not end well for him.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/201...ell-seriously/

Canít we discuss civilly? Protest civilly? Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly?
Both sides are saying, "You first."
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:53 PM
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Some conveniently placed camera-peeps, all strongly (loudly) on the side of the driver who tried to run the protester down.
Article posted by 'RedState' (Breitbart/DailyCaller/TinFoilWeekly/ same thing).
So-called manly grunting Nazi-MAGAt gets out after committing one felony and commits another 'staged' felony.

Must be a slow day for ̶I̶n̶c̶e̶l̶s̶. ̶C̶i̶r̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶. news.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
An Antifa guy tried blocking someoneís car, smacks the car with a bat or pipe. It did not end well for him.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/201...ell-seriously/

Canít we discuss civilly? Protest civilly? Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly?
It ended better than it might have.

Standing in front of car a wearing a mask and screaming at the driver while holding a bat might be construed the wrong way.
  #5  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:55 PM
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I don't know why some videos won't play for me. Synopsis?
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:58 PM
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Some conveniently placed camera-peeps, all strongly (loudly) on the side of the driver who tried to run the protester down.
The driver did a poor job of trying run the protestor down.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:07 PM
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One lone guy gets in front of another guys truck and then hits it with a stick. Truck driver gets out and beats him up.

There is no indication that the guy is part of any movement or organization. These are just a couple of knuckleheads, and the video has no more political significance than any brawl you'd see on Worldstar.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:16 PM
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People who do evil in the name of good are the most frightening of all, regardless of which side they are on.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:24 PM
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People who do evil in the name of good are the most frightening of all, regardless of which side they are on.
Are you fucking kidding me? The dude hit a truck with a stick. He wasn't running a death camp or torturing children. And he got beaten up for his troubles.

And again, there is no indication of the stick guy's motive. Maybe he's mentally ill, maybe the truck guy slept with his wife, maybe the whole thing was staged.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:37 PM
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Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly?
I think Antifa militants struggle to prevent far-right people from winning adherents who choose not to vote but to commit armed attacks.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:50 PM
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I don't have a lot of sympathy for idiots that block traffic, it's basically a form of terrorism in my opinion.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:10 PM
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One lone guy gets in front of another guys truck and then hits it with a stick. Truck driver gets out and beats him up.
You missed out a crucial part of the synopsis. The guy hits the vehicle after the driver drove his vehicle into him for several yards.

Neither person comes out looking good, and both should face criminal charges. The driver should face more serious charges for the brutal physical assault. He had the other guy on the floor, not fighting back. He could have restrained him, but instead proceeded to punch the man in the head several times.
  #13  
Old 11-24-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
You missed out a crucial part of the synopsis. The guy hits the vehicle after the driver drove his vehicle into him for several yards.

Neither person comes out looking good, and both should face criminal charges. The driver should face more serious charges for the brutal physical assault. He had the other guy on the floor, not fighting back. He could have restrained him, but instead proceeded to punch the man in the head several times.
Sure, which is why I called them a couple of knuckleheads.

Getting on my high horse, I agree that truck guy should have driven off and not gotten out to fight the guy. Not just because violence should be reserved for dire self defense, but also because he had no idea of stick guy's capabilities. Maybe stick guy had a gun.

Dismounting from my high horse, I understand Truck guy being royally pissed off that he couldn't get to wherever he was going, and getting more pissed off when stick guy banged on his door with a stick. He acted badly and stupidly, but I can't really condemn him for being provoked.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:40 PM
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Sure, which is why I called them a couple of knuckleheads.

Getting on my high horse, I agree that truck guy should have driven off and not gotten out to fight the guy. Not just because violence should be reserved for dire self defense, but also because he had no idea of stick guy's capabilities. Maybe stick guy had a gun.

Dismounting from my high horse, I understand Truck guy being royally pissed off that he couldn't get to wherever he was going, and getting more pissed off when stick guy banged on his door with a stick. He acted badly and stupidly, but I can't really condemn him for being provoked.
I think what Truck guy should have done is honk his horn a few times, then edged the vehicle forward slowly little by little, giving the other guy clear opportunity to move out of the way. Instead, he drove his vehicle into the other guy at a speed such that he could only move by walking backwards to avoid getting run over.

If the guy was totally intent on blocking the road, letting no-one pass and creating a public scene, then I think that's something that should be left to the authorities to deal with.
  #15  
Old 11-24-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
I think what Truck guy should have done is honk his horn a few times, then edged the vehicle forward slowly little by little, giving the other guy clear opportunity to move out of the way. Instead, he drove his vehicle into the other guy at a speed such that he could only move by walking backwards to avoid getting run over.

If the guy was totally intent on blocking the road, letting no-one pass and creating a public scene, then I think that's something that should be left to the authorities to deal with.
Like I said, he behaved badly. But Stick guy shouldn't have been out there in the first place. If you're going to provoke people, don't expect them to act calmly and rationally in response.

Also, we have no idea what was going on before the video. Something happened that made camera guy start filming. (Assuming this wasn't staged.)

And I think that's all I really have to say about this stupid trivial incident.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:59 PM
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Sure, which is why I called them a couple of knuckleheads.

Getting on my high horse, I agree that truck guy should have driven off and not gotten out to fight the guy. Not just because violence should be reserved for dire self defense, but also because he had no idea of stick guy's capabilities. Maybe stick guy had a gun.
He could have busted the window out on the next swing and knocked the driver out. If he had a gun than driving away just makes the driver an easy target. This falls under fight-or-flight rules.

Masked/armed/stick guy wasn't acting rationally so it's difficult to predict what he will do. The driver subdued him and eliminated the threat.
  #17  
Old 11-24-2019, 08:14 PM
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I don't know why some videos won't play for me.
The video is also on YT, though it's a bit grainier than the version on redstate.
  #18  
Old 11-24-2019, 09:58 PM
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If he had a gun than driving away just makes the driver an easy target.
You think that a motorist leaving the scene is an easier target than a motorist who rolls to a stop, allows the assailant to approach his car, then exits the vehicle and presents himself as a target within arm's reach. Sure, buddy, OK.

This guy wasn't protecting himself. He wanted to retaliate and went so far as to endanger himself to do so.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:46 PM
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The driver subdued him and eliminated the threat.
"Eliminating the threat" is not an adequate justification for beating up other people at whim.

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Originally Posted by pool
I don't have a lot of sympathy for idiots that block traffic, it's basically a form of terrorism in my opinion.
Your opinion is pretty disgusting but unfortunately also fairly widespread. Blocking traffic is stupid and thoughtless, but it's a traffic violation, not an excuse for assault.

Pushing a traffic-blocker with your vehicle and then beating him up when he hits your vehicle is just seizing an excuse to indulge your road rage.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-24-2019 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:09 PM
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You think that a motorist leaving the scene is an easier target than a motorist who rolls to a stop, allows the assailant to approach his car, then exits the vehicle and presents himself as a target within arm's reach. Sure, buddy, OK.
Yes. if he had just swung the bat then the time to find out if he also had a gun is before he pulls it out. Not after.
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This guy wasn't protecting himself. He wanted to retaliate and went so far as to endanger himself to do so.
If he stayed in the car he was essentially locked into a space he couldn't defend from a known weapon. Busting a side window out throws hundreds of tiny glass shards in your face and allows a bat or stick to then be drilled into your face lance style.

If he drove off he was vulnerable to a potential gunshot. By opening the door he was able to knock him off balance and neutralize both types of attack.

Last edited by Magiver; 11-24-2019 at 11:10 PM.
  #21  
Old 11-24-2019, 11:19 PM
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By opening the door he was able to knock him off balance and neutralize both types of attack.
If you were genuinely frightened that a guy who hit your vehicle with a stick because you shoved him with your vehicle might escalate his retaliation, you might open your door to shove him off balance and then shut the door and drive away. You wouldn't stop and get out of the vehicle and approach him.

Pretending that the driver had a legitimate self-defense reason for exiting his vehicle to beat up the traffic-blocker is just rationalizing road rage. You shouldn't be shoving people with your vehicle, no matter how frustrated you are at their illegal blocking of traffic.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:25 PM
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"Eliminating the threat" is not an adequate justification for beating up other people at whim.
it wasn't on a whim. The man showed he was violent and was holding a weapon and struck his vehicle with it.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:32 PM
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it wasn't on a whim. The man showed he was violent and was holding a weapon and struck his vehicle with it.
After the driver showed he was violent and shoved the man with his vehicle, which is a far deadlier weapon than a stick.

Even if the road-ragey driver felt endangered because the man he pushed with his vehicle retaliated by hitting his vehicle with a stick, exiting his vehicle to beat the guy up was definitely violence on a whim rather than rational self-defense.

Shoving people with your vehicle is assault. You may be sitting behind the wheel in a padded seat feeling like the vehicle is just an extension of your body so you get to push people with it, but it's a violent and dangerous thing to do.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:35 PM
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If you were genuinely frightened that a guy who hit your vehicle with a stick because you shoved him with your vehicle might escalate his retaliation, you might open your door to shove him off balance and then shut the door and drive away. You wouldn't stop and get out of the vehicle and approach him.
I missed the part of the story where it was known ahead of time the person demonstrating violence was unarmed.

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Pretending that the driver had a legitimate self-defense reason for exiting his vehicle to beat up the traffic-blocker is just rationalizing road rage. You shouldn't be shoving people with your vehicle, no matter how frustrated you are at their illegal blocking of traffic.
There's no pretending here. he had every right to subdue someone who demonstrated use of a weapon. There's simply no way of knowing what the wackjob was going to do or what weapons he possessed. All the driver knew is that he was a screaming loon who demonstrated a violent act with a weapon.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:41 PM
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I missed the part of the story where it was known ahead of time the person demonstrating violence was unarmed.
As has been pointed out already, exiting your vehicle to beat someone up is even stupider if the person is armed. The driver's getting out to beat up the guy makes zero sense except as some kind of violent road-rage revenge fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Magiver
he had every right to subdue someone who demonstrated use of a weapon.
Who in turn had every right to defend himself against someone who had assaulted him with a vehicle, of course.

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Originally Posted by Magiver
All the driver knew is that he was a screaming loon who demonstrated a violent act with a weapon.
"All"? Gosh, you mean the driver had already forgotten that he'd assaulted the guy with his vehicle? That's one forgetful driver.

Recall the summary already given in post #12:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight
The guy hits the vehicle after the driver drove his vehicle into him for several yards.

Neither person comes out looking good, and both should face criminal charges. The driver should face more serious charges for the brutal physical assault. He had the other guy on the floor, not fighting back. He could have restrained him, but instead proceeded to punch the man in the head several times.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-24-2019 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:46 PM
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After the driver showed he was violent and shoved the man with his vehicle, which is a far deadlier weapon than a stick.
Yes, a car CAN be used as a deadly weapon but it wasn't in this case.

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Even if the road-ragey driver felt endangered because the man he pushed with his vehicle retaliated by hitting his vehicle with a stick, exiting his vehicle to beat the guy up was definitely violence on a whim rather than rational self-defense.
No, it's not on a whim. there was demonstrated violence with a weapon.

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Shoving people with your vehicle is assault.
So is threatening someone with a weapon.

Last edited by Magiver; 11-24-2019 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:51 PM
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Recall the summary already given in post #12:
the summary lacks the fact that there's a screaming loon wearing a mask and holding weapon.
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:59 PM
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the summary lacks the fact that there's a screaming loon wearing a mask and holding weapon.
You should not assault people by shoving them with your vehicle, whether they're screaming or not, whether they're holding a stick or not.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:02 AM
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You should not assault people by shoving them with your vehicle, whether they're screaming or not, whether they're holding a stick or not.
Why? What's you're method of dealing with what any rational person would perceive as a crazy person with a weapon?
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:08 AM
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Why? What's you're method of dealing with what any rational person would perceive as a crazy person with a weapon?
If I see a traffic-blocking protestor holding a stick, I don't run into them with my vehicle. If I did, it would not be particularly surprising, much less "crazy", if they retaliated by hitting my vehicle with the stick.

If I see traffic-blocking protestors, I mutter some unkind words and wait for the road to be clear again, either by the protestors' spontaneously withdrawing from the road or by law enforcement removing them. I don't get so "royally pissed off" that I assault the protestors by driving my vehicle into them.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-25-2019 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:10 AM
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If I see a traffic-blocking protestor holding a stick, I don't run into them with my vehicle. If I did, it would not be particularly surprising, much less "crazy", if they retaliated by hitting my vehicle with the stick.

If I see traffic-blocking protestors, I mutter some unkind words and wait for the road to be clear again, either by the protestors' spontaneously withdrawing from the road or by law enforcement removing them. I don't get so "royally pissed off" that I assault the protestors by driving my vehicle into them.
I missed the certification process you used to ascertain the armed/masked screaming loon wasn't a threat.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:19 AM
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:20 AM
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I missed the certification process you used to ascertain the armed/masked screaming loon wasn't a threat.
Well, not being a pants-wetting paranoid scaredy-cat like so many superficially "tough guy" types, I don't actually require a situation to be formally certified as totally non-threatening in order to refrain from losing my head and committing assault by deliberately driving my vehicle into traffic-blocking protestors.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:24 AM
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ISTM that not deliberately blocking traffic is an excellent first step to avoiding getting one's ass beat.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:27 AM
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Well, not being a pants-wetting paranoid scaredy-cat like so many superficially "tough guy" types, I don't actually require a situation to be formally certified as totally non-threatening in order to refrain from losing my head and committing assault by deliberately driving my vehicle into traffic-blocking protestors.
Best of luck with the pants-wetting paranoid people wearing masks and carrying weapons.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:33 AM
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The article, dated 11/23/2019, says the video "surfaced" "yesterday." Yet the only protests I could find that happened Friday was one in Iran and the ongoing Hong Kong protests. S

The deeply biased website says "this is likely" an Antifa protestor. Based on...?

So what we've got is a man who may or may not be Antifa at what may or may not be a protest that apparently didn't happen last Friday as reported by a deeply biased website. That certainly is worthy of
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:36 AM
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ISTM that not deliberately blocking traffic is an excellent first step to avoiding getting one's ass beat.
Like I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu
Blocking traffic is stupid and thoughtless, but it's a traffic violation, not an excuse for assault.

Pushing a traffic-blocker with your vehicle and then beating him up when he hits your vehicle is just seizing an excuse to indulge your road rage.
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Originally Posted by Magiver
Best of luck with the pants-wetting paranoid people wearing masks and carrying weapons.
Well, I'd say that having the elementary common sense and self-control to refrain from going into a road-rage meltdown and deliberately driving a vehicle into protestors blocking traffic doesn't really count as "luck". Whether or not they happen to be wearing masks or holding sticks.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:39 AM
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IDGAF what s/he was protesting. #DontBlockRoads

ETA: Blocking traffic may not be an excuse for assault, but it was the reason for assault. People can choose to learn from this miserable idiot's mistake, or they can not. It's your / their choice.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-25-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:41 AM
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The article, dated 11/23/2019, says the video "surfaced" "yesterday." Yet the only protests I could find that happened Friday was one in Iran and the ongoing Hong Kong protests. S

The deeply biased website says "this is likely" an Antifa protestor. Based on...?

So what we've got is a man who may or may not be Antifa at what may or may not be a protest that apparently didn't happen last Friday as reported by a deeply biased website. That certainly is worthy of
Not surprising. I thought there was a more detailed summary posted upthread, but if nobody actually has a reliable account of what happened, then the argument is basically moot.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:44 AM
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IDGAF what s/he was protesting. #DontBlockRoads
IDGAF either, but you shouldn't deliberately run into people with your vehicle even if they are blocking roads.

What the hell is the problem with people who think that illegal blocking of roads somehow justifies deliberately running a vehicle into pedestrians? Your being inconvenienced in your use of the public highways does not make it okay for you to deliberately risk killing or maiming people.
  #41  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:46 AM
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You should not assault people by shoving them with your vehicle, whether they're screaming or not, whether they're holding a stick or not.
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Why? What's you're method of dealing with what any rational person would perceive as a crazy person with a weapon?
How about backing up the vehicle, and getting out of there by taking a cross-street, a gas station, a parking lot, or similar; so as to de-escalate the situation, and when you are safe, calling police?
  #42  
Old 11-25-2019, 12:48 AM
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ETA: Blocking traffic may not be an excuse for assault, but it was the reason for assault.
You can choose to describe any inconvenience or irritation as the "reason" for you losing your head and deliberately assaulting somebody.

That doesn't mean that the person who caused that inconvenience or irritation is the one principally at fault in the situation. It's your responsibility not to have a rage meltdown and deliberately assault people just because they're inconveniencing you.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:50 AM
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... That doesn't mean that the person who caused that inconvenience or irritation is the one principally at fault in the situation. ...
This is the part we disagree about, at least as it applies to the situation depicted in the video.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:54 AM
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This is the part we disagree about, at least as it applies to the situation depicted in the video.
Well, you need to decide whether the point you're trying to make is (a) that illegally blocking roads while protesting justifies drivers in deliberately driving their vehicles into you, which is what you seemed to be arguing a couple posts ago;
or (b) that hitting vehicles with a stick justifies drivers in beating you up, which is what you seem to be arguing now.

I think (b) is a somewhat more defensible position than (a), although if the hitting-with-a-stick was in fact provoked by the driver deliberately driving their vehicle into you, then that substantially weakens your argument.
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Old 11-25-2019, 12:58 AM
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I'm not arguing about the legal justification at all. People here love to claim that they have a reality-based worldview. Here's the reality: if you deliberately act like an ass, blocking traffic or doing other stupid shit to annoy people, some of those people, in reality, will beat your ass for it. In this age of cameras everywhere, the chances are high that your ass-beating will be caught on camera and your poor decision-making skills will be the basis of much mockery on the internet.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-25-2019 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 11-25-2019, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Here's the reality: if you deliberately act like an ass, blocking traffic or doing other stupid shit to annoy people, some of those people, in reality, will beat your ass for it. [...] and your poor decision-making skills will be the basis of much mockery on the internet.
And if, for example, you deliberately act like an ass to your classmates in school, for example, teasing them or making fun of them, some of those classmates, in reality, will bring a gun to school and shoot you and your friends for it. And your poor decision-making skills will be the basis of much mockery on the internet. Right?

Oh wait, that's not actually how it works. In situations not involving short-tempered drivers with a huge sense of entitlement and no self-control, we tend not to believe that doing some annoying "stupid shit" makes it okay to respond with violence. Or that the party we should be chastising on the internet in such situations should be the annoying one rather than the violent one.

Gosh, dude, I didn't think you were actually going to double down on the massively stupid Position (a).

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-25-2019 at 01:08 AM.
  #47  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:08 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
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I'd encourage you to read the first sentence of post #45 again.
  #48  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:11 AM
Kimstu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'd encourage you to read the first sentence of post #45 again.
How does that change anything? You're not talking about "legal justification" and neither am I.
  #49  
Old 11-25-2019, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
How does that change anything? You're not talking about "legal justification" and neither am I.
Ahhh, excellent then. I thought what you've labeled "Position (a)" was about what justifies the actions seen in the video.
  #50  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:02 AM
Chisquirrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
IDGAF what s/he was protesting. #DontBlockRoads

ETA: Blocking traffic may not be an excuse for assault, but it was the reason for assault. People can choose to learn from this miserable idiot's mistake, or they can not. It's your / their choice.
Assault's ok if you don't like what the assaulted person was doing?
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