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  #151  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
I've wondered if any of these violent ANTIFA types are actually righties in disguise. That's the thing about masks, you don't know who's under them. Abbie Hoffman once said he could always tell the uc cops because, aside from not getting the hair right, they were always the ones calling for violent action.
I don't know about that specific case, but pretending to be Antifa to make them look bad definitely happens a lot online.

https://www.salon.com/2017/09/11/6-e...ntifa_partner/
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  #152  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:14 PM
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I've wondered if any of these violent ANTIFA types are actually righties in disguise. That's the thing about masks, you don't know who's under them. Abbie Hoffman once said he could always tell the uc cops because, aside from not getting the hair right, they were always the ones calling for violent action.
Agent provocateurs have sometimes been positively identified among "black bloc" groups, yes. Very often by their shoes, for whatever reason. They rarely seem to think about springing for the ubiquitous pair of DocMarten's and instead come with their regular police-issued boots/shoes. Though obviously more may have infiltrated without getting noticed. It's not like anarchists carry membership cards .
Antifa sometimes infiltrate fascist groups for info gathering purposes as well. So the idea that some fa might be hiding among the antifa is not altogether out there - although I haven't personally read any positive claims of such, no "I infiltrated antifa for two years, here's what I learned". Although obviously that'd be a taller order, since antifa isn't an organisation at all.

(by the way, why the all capitals ? It's not an acronym or anything)
  #153  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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There's a reason that people keep saying that Andy Ngo is a threat to the community and provides kill lists to Atomwaffen (literally a neo-nazi hit squad) - because he does. While writing about how violent Antifa is.
I came across a great descriptor recently : he's a stochastic terrorist. That is to say, he doesn't encourage this or that group to do this or that brutality ; he just sets things up so that it might just happen "randomly".
  #154  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:23 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't understand your answers to #3 and #4. Would you mind trying one more time? Here, I'll ask the questions again:

3. You're being threatened by fascists. Are you better off or worse off if a group of antifa enter the scene? Is it reasonable to expect that antifa would come to your aid?

4. You're being threatened by antifa. Are you better off or worse off if a group of fascists enter the scene? Is it reasonable to expect a group of fascists will come to your aid?
I think the average actual Nazi is more dangerous than the actual antifa. Take that for what you will. I think neither have a right to initiate violence based upon another individual's exercise of fundamental liberties.
  #155  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:28 PM
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I think the average actual Nazi is more dangerous than the actual antifa. Take that for what you will. I think neither have a right to initiate violence based upon another individual's exercise of fundamental liberties.
Not at all what I'm asking. But you know that.

I'll assume you don't want to answer the questions as posed, for reasons you also don't wish to disclose. Duly noted.
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  #156  
Old 11-25-2019, 02:45 PM
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That actually happened to me once, back in my long lost teenager-hood which is now shrouded in the mists of time. I wore my hair long back then (... I actually *had* hair back then ) and have always been something of a stick-figure man. A trio of jolly skinheads I crossed paths with late at night in a subway tunnel turned around and started following me. They playfully suggested that my semi-androgynous figure had led them to some fascinating inductions regarding my sexual orientation, and there was a very clear subtext that a frank exchange of views and/or an educational hands-on lecture on finer points of anatomy might be had in the near future ; possibly involving the teaching aids that had started coming out of pockets, not to mention a heavy-looking sports bag.

I've had something similar happen in my youth as well. Four middle eastern guys were looking for some easy jewish targets. They were rightly upset about recent events in Sabra and Shatila and wrongly assumed I might have had something to do with it. While half a world away. Fortunately for me I wasn't the easy target they were looking for. Still, could have gone the other way too. I'd have welcomed some assistance. Seems unlikely it would have come from some passing friendly nazis. It's jarring insulting to hear the bothsideisms and equivocation from people who don't seem to have enjoyed the benefits of similar experiences.
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  #157  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:37 PM
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What we need is some law and order, we need a man like Bull Connor!
Who's with we?
Don't worry I/we already know who is!

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  #158  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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What we need is some law and order, we need a man like Bull Connor!
Who's with we?
Don't worry I/we already know who is!

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The bailiff from "Night Court"? What would that accomplish?
  #159  
Old 11-25-2019, 03:57 PM
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The bailiff from "Night Court"? What would that accomplish?
The thought of what America,
The thought of what America,
The thought of what America would be like
If the Classics History had a wide circulation
Troubles my sleep.

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  #160  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:05 PM
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Sure, why not do it with your full name, address and SSN printed out on your shirt, too ? . I mean it's not like fascists fucking murder people or anything .

Also, people who protested the Charlottesville rally unmasked and unarmed don't share your pious moral take from the safety of your home. They're glad there were people willing to stand between them and violent shitheads, and even run the violent shitheads away if need be when the police wouldn't.

This false equivalence never ceases being vile.
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Yknow when Antifa typically shows up? When a community says, "can we please prevent this gathering of violent fascists and fascist-adjacent people from happening in our town?" and the cops say "LOL no, we like those guys". It is community self-defense, to prevent violence and "protect and serve" when the police won't (and are more often on the side of the violent, dangerous fascists).

Then, when neo-nazi mobs inevitably bring violence to the city, the right-wing propaganda machine goes into overdrive, blaming every bit of violence, regardless of how clearly it was in self-defense, on the nebulous "antifa". Sometimes, they write the "violent antifa" story while coordinating with alt-right gangs. There's a reason that people keep saying that Andy Ngo is a threat to the community and provides kill lists to Atomwaffen (literally a neo-nazi hit squad) - because he does. While writing about how violent Antifa is.

Do you know why antifascists wear masks? It's because if the people they're pushing back against know who they are, they will literally fucking kill them. Fighting monsters is dangerous. Just recently, Emily Gorcenski (a prominent antifascist reporter) reported that, after direct death threats, a member of Atomwaffen was turned away at the Berlin Airport - where she had moved after neo-nazi threats chased her out of her old hometown of Charlottesville.

Stop swallowing and enabling right-wing propaganda and start pushing back against it. Anti-antifascist is pro-fascist.
OK, ignorance fought, I stand corrected. As a fairly staunch pacifist I'm still not entirely happy about people showing up to protests in armor with weapons, but I have a bit more respect for them if as you say they aren't attending rallies looking for a fight.

That said, they could really use a PR component of their movement. That may be particularly challenging given their loose structure, but if I, a bleeding heart liberal, news junky gets the wrong idea about them, its unsurprising that the average man on the street would also get the wrong idea.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 11-25-2019 at 04:07 PM.
  #161  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:07 PM
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The thought of what America,
The thought of what America,
The thought of what America would be like
If the Classics History had a wide circulation
Troubles my sleep.

CMC fnord!
5 o'clock somewhere.
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  #162  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:36 PM
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Thanks to OP for introducing us to his impartial news source.
Nice try, but wrong.

It was on Facebook first, and then removed from FB. Searching, it was found on redstate. Which I'd never before been to.
  #163  
Old 11-25-2019, 04:46 PM
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One could argue that the beatdown was more justified however because the owner was preventing a crime against his property. At that point it appears the guy is to the side of the car and out of danger and continues to escalate the situation.
One could argue that the "crime against property" was more justified because the pedestrian was preventing an attempt on his life.


Seriously, we're attempting the defend someone hitting someone with their truck then finishing the job with their fists, because they're afraid of a stick?
  #164  
Old 11-25-2019, 05:00 PM
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Nice try, but wrong.

It was on Facebook first, and then removed from FB. Searching, it was found on redstate. Which I'd never before been to.
Yeah, that's not contradicting what he's saying.
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  #165  
Old 11-25-2019, 05:12 PM
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An Antifa guy tried blocking someoneís car, smacks the car with a bat or pipe. It did not end well for him.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/201...ell-seriously/

Canít we discuss civilly? Protest civilly? Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly?
...from your original cite:

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Originally Posted by Red State
While the guy tweeting the video (itís originally from Live Leakís site) says this is ďextinction rebellion,Ē thatís not really much of a thing in the U.S. and you can clearly hear the driver is American. This is likely just a regular, Antifa anti-capitalist. You can see that the man in the SUV got out tried to get the protestor to move, but he came right back into the road.
So the evidence that Red States presents to demonstrate that this protester is actually "anti-fa" is...well they don't present any evidence at all. They just think its likely to be "just a regular Antifa anti-capitalist."

This isn't news. There is no context here, no story. We don't know when this was filmed, we don't know where this was filmed, we don't know who was driving the car or who was hit. I've done a cursory search through various news agencies and (allegedly the original source, LiveLeak) and I can't find anything else about this video.

This is propaganda. Disinformation.
  #166  
Old 11-25-2019, 05:39 PM
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OK, ignorance fought, I stand corrected. As a fairly staunch pacifist I'm still not entirely happy about people showing up to protests in armor with weapons, but I have a bit more respect for them if as you say they aren't attending rallies looking for a fight.
To be perfectly fair, a minority of them probably are. There's probably a that guy in every movement or group, or people who show up at the demo just for the testosterone rush. It is what it is.
But I mean 3/4th of dedicated antifa are social sciences college nerds, they're not exactly the type who call the Warriors out to play . Mostly they're not interested in provoking violence if a staredown can suffice - they just don't want neo-nazis marching through or recruiting in their 'hood.
They will absolutely respond to violence in kind, though.

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That said, they could really use a PR component of their movement. That may be particularly challenging given their loose structure, but if I, a bleeding heart liberal, news junky gets the wrong idea about them, its unsurprising that the average man on the street would also get the wrong idea.
Sure, that's fair, and optics are very much an issue the ones I met seem to take to heart - which is why IME they're typically fairly strict on the "no instigating, making doubly sure nobody can say they were instigating" bit and are (again, IME) quick to ostracize guys who are too eager to start some shit.

But then again, based on (other, not fa/antifa related) demos I've been to, the media tends to be a lot more interested in filming the one guy throwing down or the one garbage can lit on fire than the entire rest of the street singing Kumbaya, you know ? And even if I know perfectly well why the masks and why the "black bloc" strategy (that is to say : to avoid getting singled out of a protest line for the purpose of roughing you up or worse later, when you're on your own), I can't really argue against the notion that it looks intimidating and "delinquent-y".
So it's a problem, but there's no really satisfying solution to the problem.
  #167  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:13 PM
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Ah, "and intimidate drivers." Uprooted them goalposts, I see.

Once again: blocking traffic isn't terrorism, because nobody's terrorized. Annoyed or irritated, maybe even upset. But not terrorized. That's why it's not terrorism.
I disagree. Someone trapping me in traffic terrorizes the shit out of me. It negatively impacts my life, it can be a major safety hazard. Turning a 30 minute drive into a 2 hour drive makes me a tense, nerve-wracked mess.

It even fits the definition of terrorism, as the US government defines it, which is "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives".

Blocking traffic and making people stuck for an indeterminate time is absolutely force against persons or property. Itís certainly illegal, and done to intimidate people. You are threatening a personís way of life unless the changes you want made happen.

Terrorism does not require the threat or actual infliction of bodily harm or death. It only requires a some show of force against people to intimidate them into accepting political demands. People intentionally blocking traffic disruptively fits that description.
  #168  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:15 PM
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Also, I call bullshit on the OP and the video. If this was an “antifa protest”, where is the protest? Where are the signs, the rest of the group, etc.? It’s either a single mentally ill person or just faked.
  #169  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:20 PM
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To be perfectly fair, a minority of them probably are. There's probably a that guy in every movement or group, or people who show up at the demo just for the testosterone rush. It is what it is.
But I mean 3/4th of dedicated antifa are social sciences college nerds, they're not exactly the type who call the Warriors out to play . Mostly they're not interested in provoking violence if a staredown can suffice - they just don't want neo-nazis marching through or recruiting in their 'hood.
They will absolutely respond to violence in kind, though.



Sure, that's fair, and optics are very much an issue the ones I met seem to take to heart - which is why IME they're typically fairly strict on the "no instigating, making doubly sure nobody can say they were instigating" bit and are (again, IME) quick to ostracize guys who are too eager to start some shit.

But then again, based on (other, not fa/antifa related) demos I've been to, the media tends to be a lot more interested in filming the one guy throwing down or the one garbage can lit on fire than the entire rest of the street singing Kumbaya, you know ? And even if I know perfectly well why the masks and why the "black bloc" strategy (that is to say : to avoid getting singled out of a protest line for the purpose of roughing you up or worse later, when you're on your own), I can't really argue against the notion that it looks intimidating and "delinquent-y".
So it's a problem, but there's no really satisfying solution to the problem.
Sure there is. Enforce the law or change the law. I really would rather not have society governed by the most willing to get violent. Because regardless of what side prevails it will suck. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Chavez, Mugabe, Pol Pot, etc.. have proven this.
  #170  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:36 PM
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One of the worst terrorist attacks in American history.

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  #171  
Old 11-25-2019, 06:55 PM
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Sure there is. Enforce the law or change the law. I really would rather not have society governed by the most willing to get violent. Because regardless of what side prevails it will suck. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Chavez, Mugabe, Pol Pot, etc.. have proven this.
That's nice and all, but it doesn't help the guys sent to hospital (or worse) by neo-nazis in the right now. All the more so in today's America where, despite the FBI classifying neo nazi movements as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat, they're saying that even if they had more resources and leeway to go after nazis, it's going to take years to make a dent (also the Trump admin has defanged them specifically when it comes to far right terrorism For Some Reason) ?

And, again, the fascists are absolutely willing to get violent. Like, that's the whole thing about fascists and why they shouldn't be countenanced, ever. Their embracing violence as a legitimate first resort. Or for the fun of it. The fuckmooks who came to Charlottesville came armed (including guns), and the guy who killed Heather Heyer had talked about plowing his car into potential counter-protesters long before the rally actually took place. Why would any neighbourhood allow the presence of openly violent people in their midst ? "You have to tolerate the intolerant !" has always been a shit argument.

I'm not saying there are easy answers. I'm not antifa myself, because not only am I a giant coward, also I weigh about 100 pounds and fly off even in the most moderate of mosh pits. But I am sympathetic to their cause, see where they're coming from and I find the history & philosophy discussions that surround antifa very stimulating and thought provoking - I just received my copy of Mark Bray's Antifa Handbook (which, despite the title, is more of an history/philosophy book, there certainly are no streetfighting how-tos in there ) and it's really good so far. But yeah, it's not as easy as "fight the nazis in the polling booths !" - especially when nazis have been actively infiltrating police and armed forces over the past 20 or so years for one thing ; and the police are not always suuuper diligent about protecting minority neighbourhoods for another.

So what do ? And more importantly (or rather, to cut short the knee jerk response), what do when the police doesn't protect you from them ? Or when it fights with them ? It's your neighbourhood. At the end of the day, the media and the armchair philosophers can say whatever they like, you're the guy or gal who has to live in it. If you can't fight to make your own neighbourhood safe, and the people who're supposed to keep it safe won't then... what ? Just accept that you're going to get beat up and/or murdered once in a while but it's all good and proper 'cause you hung onto that precious moral high ground ? Do like that Charlottesville synagogue had to and hire fucking mercenaries ?
  #172  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:01 PM
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Hey I know this is the Pit and all, but instead of becoming flagrantly and irrationally partisan, can we all agree that blocking cars is both a complete asshole move that is politically counterproductive and that the other dude went a bit too far?
  #173  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:02 PM
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Are you really trying to say that the Selma marches to raise awareness for racial injustice were solely trying to disrupt traffic to force political change? I read that they marched along the highway and broke no laws in the process. The protest was legal, peaceful, and effective.

Next youíll be saying that the March on Washington involved widespread looting and vandalism.
  #174  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:05 PM
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Hey I know this is the Pit and all, but instead of becoming flagrantly and irrationally partisan, can we all agree that blocking cars is both a complete asshole move that is politically counterproductive and that the other dude went a bit too far?
No, the other dude went WAY too far.

I put myself in the situation of the guy in the truck and thought what I would do. I would never push a person with my vehicle (even slowly) because what if he fell in front and I crushed him? Nor would I get out and beat him. No rational person would even think about that.
  #175  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:07 PM
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Are you really trying to say that the Selma marches to raise awareness for racial injustice were solely trying to disrupt traffic to force political change?
No, he's saying exactly the opposite of that. He's pointing out how dumb it is to describe "blocking traffic" as a terrorist tactic, and also undercutting the argument that blocking traffic is an ineffective form of protest.
  #176  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:12 PM
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No, he's saying exactly the opposite of that. He's pointing out how dumb it is to describe "blocking traffic" as a terrorist tactic, and also undercutting the argument that blocking traffic is an ineffective form of protest.
By pointing to an unrelated situation? Again, Iím not aware of the Selma protestors barricading roads.
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Old 11-25-2019, 07:20 PM
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Curiously wide pedestrian walkway on that bridge, strange lack of vehicular traffic that certainly has nothing with the police roadblock.

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  #178  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:20 PM
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By pointing to an unrelated situation? Again, Iím not aware of the Selma protestors barricading roads.
They literally walked. In the middle of a major highway. You don't think that mighta coulda held up traffic some ?
  #179  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:21 PM
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Just to clarify, I consider this to be force illegally used against the populace:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1WM1JP
A standard non-violent protest (the kind I see on a regular basis in the Seattle area) which may cause some minor traffic issues doesn’t raise to that level. The Selma marches and other such actions that weren’t intentionally disruptive are not at all the same.

I’m also not equating that level of disruption with terrorist attacks that take lives. You don’t throw those protestors in Gitmo or shoot them. But they are illegal and law enforcement does usually have the authority to stop it, and should (depending on the jurisdiction).

Last edited by Atamasama; 11-25-2019 at 07:21 PM.
  #180  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:38 PM
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So the evidence that Red States presents to demonstrate that this protester is actually "anti-fa" is...well they don't present any evidence at all. They just think its likely to be "just a regular Antifa anti-capitalist."

This isn't news. There is no context here, no story. We don't know when this was filmed, we don't know where this was filmed, we don't know who was driving the car or who was hit. I've done a cursory search through various news agencies and (allegedly the original source, LiveLeak) and I can't find anything else about this video.

This is propaganda. Disinformation.
Well done, sir.
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  #181  
Old 11-25-2019, 07:54 PM
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The Selma marches and other such actions that werenít intentionally disruptive are not at all the same.
Really? The entire Civil Rights movement was disruptive. And I'm sure the Southern whites were terrorized by the thought of Negroes who thought they were as good as good white folk running free.

A demonstration that doesn't disrupt SOMETHING isn't actually a demonstration. It's a polite, completely voluntary educational opportunity. And generally pretty ineffective. There's a REASON that unions picket an employer they're striking against instead of just not going to work. They're DISRUPTING business (ideally) to force the employer to negotiate.

I'm sure protest movements and such that just politely ask for their goals to be achieved by the comfortable majority are out there, but I haven't heard of many of them.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:15 PM
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That's nice and all, but it doesn't help the guys sent to hospital (or worse) by neo-nazis in the right now. All the more so in today's America where, despite the FBI classifying neo nazi movements as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat, they're saying that even if they had more resources and leeway to go after nazis, it's going to take years to make a dent (also the Trump admin has defanged them specifically when it comes to far right terrorism For Some Reason) ?

And, again, the fascists are absolutely willing to get violent. Like, that's the whole thing about fascists and why they shouldn't be countenanced, ever. Their embracing violence as a legitimate first resort. Or for the fun of it. The fuckmooks who came to Charlottesville came armed (including guns), and the guy who killed Heather Heyer had talked about plowing his car into potential counter-protesters long before the rally actually took place. Why would any neighbourhood allow the presence of openly violent people in their midst ? "You have to tolerate the intolerant !" has always been a shit argument.

I'm not saying there are easy answers. I'm not antifa myself, because not only am I a giant coward, also I weigh about 100 pounds and fly off even in the most moderate of mosh pits. But I am sympathetic to their cause, see where they're coming from and I find the history & philosophy discussions that surround antifa very stimulating and thought provoking - I just received my copy of Mark Bray's Antifa Handbook (which, despite the title, is more of an history/philosophy book, there certainly are no streetfighting how-tos in there ) and it's really good so far. But yeah, it's not as easy as "fight the nazis in the polling booths !" - especially when nazis have been actively infiltrating police and armed forces over the past 20 or so years for one thing ; and the police are not always suuuper diligent about protecting minority neighbourhoods for another.

So what do ? And more importantly (or rather, to cut short the knee jerk response), what do when the police doesn't protect you from them ? Or when it fights with them ? It's your neighbourhood. At the end of the day, the media and the armchair philosophers can say whatever they like, you're the guy or gal who has to live in it. If you can't fight to make your own neighbourhood safe, and the people who're supposed to keep it safe won't then... what ? Just accept that you're going to get beat up and/or murdered once in a while but it's all good and proper 'cause you hung onto that precious moral high ground ? Do like that Charlottesville synagogue had to and hire fucking mercenaries ?
I don't see anything wrong with self defense. I don't think a lawful assembly or speech is sufficient provocation in and of itself for self defense. I don't think the exercise of legal rights is provocation that can trigger self defense.

Do I have a problem with gangsters, mafia types, cartels, terrorists, and other forms of organized crime? Yes. And the intelligence and law enforcement agencies should be able to investigate and prosecute those. I think the intelligence agencies, military, and bounty hunters should also be able to deal with those we are at war with in lethal fashion so I am far from a peacenik or a pacifist.

But concerning folks legally in the US exercising civil rights I don't have any patience for violent intimidation. Especially since we have a functioning democracy. If one doesn't like policy we can vote to change it. Then watch an appointed judge overturn the vote... but that's one reason, and a good one, for why we have Trump.

Here's the deal though, if we could be certain that vigilantism could be controlled and act in a perfect manner than I wouldn't have a problem with all the wanna be antifa Batmans running around. But we can't. And history has demonstrated and time and again that underground partisan and sectarian violence if successful leads to the absolute worst, most paranoid, and most ruthless seizing power.

What's that quote usually attributed to Stalin? "A single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" Something like that? Yes, personal anecdotes are sad. Weird, fringe political movements of dangerous nuts can end in many personal tragedies. However, the acceptance of political violence as a legitimate means to influence policy and behavior and the exercise of civil rights in a functioning democracy has the danger of adding to the list of statistics.
  #183  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:26 PM
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Really? The entire Civil Rights movement was disruptive. And I'm sure the Southern whites were terrorized by the thought of Negroes who thought they were as good as good white folk running free.

A demonstration that doesn't disrupt SOMETHING isn't actually a demonstration. It's a polite, completely voluntary educational opportunity. And generally pretty ineffective. There's a REASON that unions picket an employer they're striking against instead of just not going to work. They're DISRUPTING business (ideally) to force the employer to negotiate.

I'm sure protest movements and such that just politely ask for their goals to be achieved by the comfortable majority are out there, but I haven't heard of many of them.
But there is a difference between chaining yourself to a car and marching with a sign. The level of disruption matters. If I go out and burn down abandoned buildings in the name of civil rights I’m definitely drawing attention to a worthy cause. But not in the right way.

Again, assuming the video in the OP is what is claimed (which I find really hard to believe), are you okay with people literally stepping out in front of cars to block them? Random vehicles at freeway ramps? I don’t care what your cause is, that’s unacceptable. If a group of people did that and forced people to go to choose between running someone over or being stopped for an indeterminate time they should get cuffed and taken away, and cited at least. If they were doing that in the name of a political movement those leaders should disavow those protestors and their tactics.

Last edited by Atamasama; 11-25-2019 at 08:28 PM.
  #184  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:26 PM
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I disagree. Someone trapping me in traffic terrorizes the shit out of me. It negatively impacts my life, it can be a major safety hazard. Turning a 30 minute drive into a 2 hour drive makes me a tense, nerve-wracked mess.
So IOW you don't commute by car in a major urban area. Because every now and then, there's an accident that blocks traffic and has exactly that sort of effect on one's commute.
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It even fits the definition of terrorism, as the US government defines it, which is "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives".
Then the only aspect of this missing from the occasional difficulties with my morning commute is the absence of objectives.

And if there's little difference between a traffic blockage without objectives, and one with objectives, then the latter damn sure isn't going to intimidate or coerce anyone, and therefore fails to be terrorism.
  #185  
Old 11-25-2019, 08:35 PM
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So IOW you don't commute by car in a major urban area. Because every now and then, there's an accident that blocks traffic and has exactly that sort of effect on one's commute. Then the only aspect of this missing from the occasional difficulties with my morning commute is the absence of objectives.
Only if downtown Seattle or Tacoma aren’t major urban areas. Accidents can really suck, and every now and then a really bad one can add significant time to my drive. But there’s nobody causing accidents on purpose in order to push political change. Your false equivalence is like saying that murder isn’t a bit deal because people die all the time from natural causes, accidents, and illnesses. When bad things happen on purpose, that is rightfully treated differently.

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And if there's little difference between a traffic blockage without objectives, and one with objectives, then the latter damn sure isn't going to intimidate or coerce anyone, and therefore fails to be terrorism.
So by your definition a terrorist action that fails to achieve its goal isn’t terrorism? Note that terrorism is intending to intimidate people. It doesn’t have to succeed.

Last edited by Atamasama; 11-25-2019 at 08:39 PM.
  #186  
Old 11-26-2019, 01:22 AM
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I came across a great descriptor recently : he's a stochastic terrorist. That is to say, he doesn't encourage this or that group to do this or that brutality ; he just sets things up so that it might just happen "randomly".
Stochastic terrorism is one of those neologisms that basically everyone really should try to understand, because it is the basic way that the modern far right "gives missions". Most of the time, it's not typical, structured missions. Rather, it's a massive online culture that teaches you that you're right to feel desperate and afraid and hopeless, that those who go out guns blazing are heroes and martyrs (literally "saints"), and that nothing can or will get better for you. They encourage you to "take the black pill" and accept that nothing will ever get better, and that your only option is to kill yourself, and maybe take a few normies with you if you get the chance.

It's why places like 8chan can spawn multiple terrorists despite having no organization. The modern path to far-right terrorism and radicalization is entirely stochastic. For anyone looking for a primer. Ian Danskin made an incredible video on the subject, "How to radicalize a normie", and I cannot recommend it highly enough.

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OK, ignorance fought, I stand corrected. As a fairly staunch pacifist I'm still not entirely happy about people showing up to protests in armor with weapons, but I have a bit more respect for them if as you say they aren't attending rallies looking for a fight.

That said, they could really use a PR component of their movement. That may be particularly challenging given their loose structure, but if I, a bleeding heart liberal, news junky gets the wrong idea about them, its unsurprising that the average man on the street would also get the wrong idea.
The modern mainstream media fucking sucks about this. If you're active on the left, one thing you'll quickly learn is that while claims of a "liberal" bias are vastly overstated by those on the right, they really hate anyone on the left. That includes antifa. They will gutlessly and witlessly swallow any bullshit they hear from known far-right agitators about antifa. There's only so much PR work you can do when the cards are stacked against you like this. I wish I knew what to do about this as well, but it's really bad. Like, at a far-right rally in Portland not long ago, the police spread a baseless rumor that the protesters were mixing cement in with the vegan milkshakes that they were handing out. It was nonsense... But it made the rounds, and the mainstream media is far more likely to trust right-wing grifters quoting the police than actual members of antifa.

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Nice try, but wrong.

It was on Facebook first, and then removed from FB. Searching, it was found on redstate. Which I'd never before been to.
"I'm sorry, I should have checked my sources better before spreading propaganda."

Try it, it's so much easier than doubling down on stupid bullshit!
  #187  
Old 11-26-2019, 01:31 AM
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I really would rather not have society governed by the most willing to get violent.
Let's go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! Who the fuck do you think governs society, dumbass? All government comes with the implicit threat of violence.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 11-26-2019 at 01:31 AM.
  #188  
Old 11-26-2019, 01:48 AM
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Let's go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! Who the fuck do you think governs society, dumbass? All government comes with the implicit threat of violence.
We try to be just and civil and all that, but might does make right. Thatís human nature and, well, just nature itself.
  #189  
Old 11-26-2019, 02:07 AM
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Let's go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! Who the fuck do you think governs society, dumbass? All government comes with the implicit threat of violence.
You are a special kind of special. You do realize there is a big difference between extrajudicial mob violence and violence as a mechanism that the governed have chosen to use as a tool? Please tell me you are not equating a democratic state with checks and balances and due process and written law with terrorists, thugs, and vigilantes?
  #190  
Old 11-26-2019, 02:18 AM
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So by your definition a terrorist action that fails to achieve its goal isnít terrorism? Note that terrorism is intending to intimidate people. It doesnít have to succeed.
No, but if no reasonable person would be intimidated by an action, you can't argue it's a form of terrorism. So simply blocking traffic, even with an objective, is not terrorism.

You could argue blocking traffic while carrying a weapon in a way that looks like you're ready to use it could be terrorism, though. (It would, of course, depend on whether there is a cause.)

Antifa, in concept, is supposed to be people who carry weapons for protection, and who will respond to violence with violence, but are otherwise peaceful. They are there to make it clear to fascists that they will not come out unscathed if they try their typical terrorist tactics. Their goal is to be like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.

Who, regardless of what revisionist history you may have heard, were also very important in the fight for Civil Rights. It wasn't King and his followers alone.
  #191  
Old 11-26-2019, 02:43 AM
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Stochastic terrorism is one of those neologisms that basically everyone really should try to understand, because it is the basic way that the modern far right "gives missions". Most of the time, it's not typical, structured missions. Rather, it's a massive online culture that teaches you that you're right to feel desperate and afraid and hopeless, that those who go out guns blazing are heroes and martyrs (literally "saints"), and that nothing can or will get better for you. They encourage you to "take the black pill" and accept that nothing will ever get better, and that your only option is to kill yourself, and maybe take a few normies with you if you get the chance.
A milder form of this is what I mentioned in post #51: constant propaganda encouraging people to single out very specific minor hassles of life, such as traffic problems associated with civil protest, as intolerable affronts deserving of violent retaliation.

People who are otherwise very clear on the concept that stupid or annoying behavior on the part of someone else is not an excuse for gratuitous violence are being egged on to spread the attitude that angrily driving into road-blocking protestors is funny and satisfying and a reasonable response to being inconvenienced in your use of the roads.

That's not a normal attitude for reasonable people. That attitude's being deliberately cultivated to increase popular hostility and aversion to civil protest, and to intimidate potential protestors with implied threats of likely violent assault.
  #192  
Old 11-26-2019, 03:50 AM
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But concerning folks legally in the US exercising civil rights I don't have any patience for violent intimidation. Especially since we have a functioning democracy.
I appreciate that, since you're not yourself Jewish or Black or gay or Roma you might not have twigged this yet, but WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK WAVING A NAZI FLAG IS ? It's violent intimidation and a direct murder threat in and of itself. It's saying "I want you dead. I'll try to kill you whenever I have the opportunity". And not just "when we take the Hill", either. A swastika spray painted on a wall means "we're in your neighbourhood, and we'll strike when we think we can get away with it. You are not safe here".

Read the links I posted upthread. The unite the right guys parked a handful of men with guns in front of the local synagogue, all day long. They also came howling at the doors of the local black church yelling epithets and threats. You think that's just some fine folks peacably exercising their civil rights ? Do you think the Jews praying inside were paranoid to be afraid for their lives, especially when the police were nowhere in sight despite direct calls for their protection ?

And don't give us your "if by whiskey" arguments.

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Ian Danskin made an incredible video on the subject, "How to radicalize a normie", and I cannot recommend it highly enough.
It's been making the rounds, but yeah, seconded. Great vid.
I would also recommend PhilosophyTube's The Philosophy of Antifa to anyone interested in learning about these guys from a source slightly less biased, or (if he knows that thing about the razor blades sometimes hidden behind nazi stickers and posters) slightly more antifa-adjacent than corporate media. I can't say I see Ollie as the baseball bat swinging type , but I'd wager he knows where the good punk bars are in his area .
  #193  
Old 11-26-2019, 04:06 AM
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Who, regardless of what revisionist history you may have heard, were also very important in the fight for Civil Rights. It wasn't King and his followers alone.
Ayup. It's like that one noted dangerous far-left extremist once said, "Speak softly, and carry a big stick".
  #194  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:13 AM
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Only if downtown Seattle or Tacoma arenít major urban areas. Accidents can really suck, and every now and then a really bad one can add significant time to my drive. But thereís nobody causing accidents on purpose in order to push political change.
Tru dat, but when we're in a traffic backup due to an accident, we go 'grumble grumble, gonna have to sit here stuck in traffic again,' and that's the extent of it.

Being in a traffic backup due to protesters blocking traffic affects you differently...how??

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Your false equivalence is like saying that murder isnít a bit deal because people die all the time from natural causes, accidents, and illnesses. When bad things happen on purpose, that is rightfully treated differently.
How about when merely annoying and irritating stuff happens on purpose? Is there a point in reacting to it differently?
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So by your definition a terrorist action that fails to achieve its goal isnít terrorism? Note that terrorism is intending to intimidate people. It doesnít have to succeed.
No, I'm saying that if there's no particular reason to believe the intent is to intimidate and coerce, rather than merely raise awareness of their cause, it isn't terrorism. And if they're doing stuff that isn't inherently intimidating, there's no reason to assume that's their intent, and every reason to assume it's not. You're assuming intent to coerce and intimidate. That's not inherently true here.

Speaking of assuming, could you link to that definition you quoted? I bet the law or reg containing the government definition defines 'force' somewhere too. Here you're assuming that 'standing in the street' qualifies as 'force' with respect to the definition of terrorism. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you haven't shown that you're right to do so either.
  #195  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:22 AM
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It's been making the rounds, but yeah, seconded. Great vid.
I would also recommend PhilosophyTube's The Philosophy of Antifa to anyone interested in learning about these guys from a source slightly less biased, or (if he knows that thing about the razor blades sometimes hidden behind nazi stickers and posters) slightly more antifa-adjacent than corporate media. I can't say I see Ollie as the baseball bat swinging type , but I'd wager he knows where the good punk bars are in his area .
Yeah, that's another excellent video. The main issue with both is that they're pretty long. Mostly because they're chock-full of valuable information and it's hard to condense it down further, but... still. It's one of those annoying things.
  #196  
Old 11-26-2019, 09:56 AM
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I mean on the one hand yes, on the other hand, it's still much shorter and digestibler than a book on the Kantian Imperative (and probably a little less racist at that ). People either give a shit or they don't ; but I for one am likely to look down on someone who'd rather keep on spouting uninformed shit or demand Spark Notes than spare an hour of their life to, y'know, learning stuff, broadening their horizons... being honestly curious about the world(s) they inhabit.
Use'em as the pizza-driven filler between overly enthusiastic fucks with your paramour(s), I don't care. It can't be worse than Dancing with the Stars.
I mean it really can't possibly be.

Last edited by Kobal2; 11-26-2019 at 09:57 AM.
  #197  
Old 11-26-2019, 10:40 AM
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Being in a traffic backup due to protesters blocking traffic affects you differently...how??

How about when merely annoying and irritating stuff happens on purpose? Is there a point in reacting to it differently?
No, I'm saying that if there's no particular reason to believe the intent is to intimidate and coerce, rather than merely raise awareness of their cause, it isn't terrorism. And if they're doing stuff that isn't inherently intimidating, there's no reason to assume that's their intent, and every reason to assume it's not. You're assuming intent to coerce and intimidate. That's not inherently true here.

Speaking of assuming, could you link to that definition you quoted? I bet the law or reg containing the government definition defines 'force' somewhere too. Here you're assuming that 'standing in the street' qualifies as 'force' with respect to the definition of terrorism. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you haven't shown that you're right to do so either.
It bears reminding that if you find the protesters sympathetic to your politics/beliefs/cause, then you are far less likely to find yourself so irritated with the delay and disruption to your day that you probably won't feel the urge to nose your vehicle into the demonstrator as a way of showing your disapproval.
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  #198  
Old 11-26-2019, 10:58 AM
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It bears reminding that if you find the protesters sympathetic to your politics/beliefs/cause, then you are far less likely to find yourself so irritated with the delay and disruption to your day that you probably won't feel the urge to nose your vehicle into the demonstrator as a way of showing your disapproval.
I'm assuming that odds are against my being the car at the front of the traffic backup.

If I'm two blocks back, it's all the same to me. They could be protesting against abortion or against guns, and I might have no idea which it was, or whether it was an accident or construction or what.
  #199  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:14 AM
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Antifa, in concept, is supposed to be people who carry weapons for protection, and who will respond to violence with violence, but are otherwise peaceful.
The problem is they are carrying the wrong weapons. If they had an AR-15, then they would obviously be good guys, patriotic defenders of freedom, honoring their second amendment rights to defend themselves. But they have sticks for god sakes! Who knows what havoc they could wreak!

Last edited by Buck Godot; 11-26-2019 at 11:15 AM.
  #200  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:14 AM
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Also, even if I was at the front of the line, with protesters standing directly in front of my car, it still wouldn't matter if they're protesting against abortion or against guns or what. They're still human beings. That matters. You don't treat people as things; that's what sin is.


I wish I could claim credit for that last sentence, but no. It's from Terry Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum. In 49 years as a Christian, it's easily the most insightful thing I've heard about sin. So naturally it was written by an atheist. Bravo for life's little ironies.
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