Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:35 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back, dammit!
Posts: 30,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I knew that as soon as you had a woman in Quebec say "Sod this". Wth, dude? We're not that British, especially in Quebec.
You use your vocab when you write dialogue, and I’ll use mine.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #52  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:40 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back, dammit!
Posts: 30,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I'm wondering if there are laws which do not stand by themselves. In other words, are there laws that require the posting of a sign?
Hunting on posted land is a local example. If Elmer Fudd goes hunting on a farmer’s field, he may be trespassing, but maybe not, depending on his understanding of local custom.

But if the farmer posts his lands, then Fudd is committing a wildlife offence if he goes on the land to hunt.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #53  
Old 12-04-2019, 02:03 AM
Sunspace is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Near the GT eeehhhh...
Posts: 27,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I knew that as soon as you had a woman in Quebec say "Sod this". Wth, dude? We're not that British, especially in Quebec.
Yeah, she probably said something like, "maudit crisse de tabernac!" ( Pardon my French. )
__________________
Rigardu, kaj vi ekvidos.
Look, and you will begin to see.
  #54  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:23 AM
Spoons is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Posts: 18,843
I'd suggest that in any province of this country, "F**k you, dude" is universally understood.
  #55  
Old 12-04-2019, 10:34 AM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 86,612
Don't forget to add "eh" at the end, eh.
  #56  
Old 12-04-2019, 04:40 PM
Pantastic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
I would be inclined to agree with the SCC on appeal, but at trial, I'd want to hear testimony from the officer. Did he actually and credibly believe, in good faith (for instance, on the basis of his training), that she was legally required to obey the pictograph?
I don't care what nonsense the cop decided he believed. He was not enforcing an actual law, and police making up their own laws, then arresting (or detaining, or ticketing, or whatever) police for them is something I object to very strongly. The fact that people are fine with the police just making up laws out of thin air boggles my mind.
  #57  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:47 PM
Kovitlac is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 75
I figured that things like symbols and pictographs indicate that general (or maybe more specific) safety measures be taken. Showing someone holding a rail implies that you should stay still, don't be reckless, take caution, etc. There doesn't seem to be an issue with this woman flailing around, causing harm to herself or others, or generally being reckless. So...why did Mr. Metro Cop have such a hard-on for arresting her? Seems insanely petty to me.

It's like if I'm changing the music in my car and all over the road as a result, I should and will be pulled over for reckless driving. If I'm changing my music and still driving safely, yet a cop sees me, should I get pulled over? Is that fair? I don't think so, if I'm obviously not causing a problem.
  #58  
Old 12-04-2019, 07:08 PM
Muffin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great White North
Posts: 20,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
In my experience when driving in Ontario, there's a sign that says "50 km/h [30 mph] unless otherwise posted" at the entrance to a city or town;
Some do, some don't. They don't where I live (on the boundary between two Ontario municipalities at the top of the Blues Highway).



Concerning pictographs and the law, here are some Ontario examples of how a pictograph could communicate a law:

Quote:
Trespass to Property Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21
. . . .
Form of sign
6 (1) A sign naming an activity or showing a graphic representation of an activity is sufficient for the purpose of giving notice that the activity is permitted. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 6 (1).

Idem
(2) A sign naming an activity with an oblique line drawn through the name or showing a graphic representation of an activity with an oblique line drawn through the representation is sufficient for the purpose of giving notice that the activity is prohibited. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 6 (2).

Red markings
7 (1) Red markings made and posted in accordance with subsections (3) and (4) are sufficient for the purpose of giving notice that entry on the premises is prohibited. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 7 (1).

Yellow markings
(2) Yellow markings made and posted in accordance with subsections (3) and (4) are sufficient for the purpose of giving notice that entry is prohibited except for the purpose of certain activities and shall be deemed to be notice of the activities permitted. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 7 (2).
So it looks like I was wrong when I used to think that a red circles and yellow circles were hiking trail markers. My bad.

The moral of the story is that a pictograph is not a law unless it communicates a law. In the escalator example, there was no law, so the pictograph was not communicating a law.
__________________
Hour after hour, day after day, we paddled and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, wanting never to return.
  #59  
Old 12-04-2019, 07:14 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 85,784
One can imagine a law that says something like "Riders of the Metro must obey all posted safety warnings", or the like, and then the courts could reasonably decide that the pictograph of a person holding the rail was a posted safety warning, and that a passenger not holding the rail was therefore not obeying that warning, and thus breaking the law. One can imagine such a law, but it appears in this case that that would only be one's imagination.

Aside: Ohio has a law (Ohio Revised Code 1711.551) concerning amusement park rides that says, in part, that riders must obey all directions from the ride operator concerning the ride, and that failure to comply is a misdemeanor. Back when I worked as a ride operator as a summer job, I had a safety schpiel I gave before every ride, which I concluded by saying "And the most important rule is to have fun!". Which means that, technically, any kid on my ride who wasn't having fun was committing a misdemeanor.
  #60  
Old 12-04-2019, 08:06 PM
Scribble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In your dreams
Posts: 3,562
This story, serious as though it is, reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHxxgKT0Mak
  #61  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:31 AM
Wrenching Spanners is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
Yes and no. The "law" in question is not a proper provincial or federal law at all; it is merely a by-law of a municipal agency.

I had a look at the STM (Société de transport de Montréal) by-law R-036 (link here), and it does indicate that ignoring a pictogram is a violation of the by-law. From the link:

Further, under s. 26 of the by-law, anyone contravening s. 4(e) is liable to a fine of $75 to $500.

So, the by-law is enforceable, and based on the facts and the by-law and the pictogram, the woman contravened the by-law. Though she may have technically contravened the STM's By-Law R-026 (as, no doubt, thousands of Montrealers do every day), the woman in Montreal did not deserve the treatment she suffered at the hands of an overzealous transit officer. I have not yet read the SCC's decision, but I'd suggest that the officer's actions towards the woman were what was at issue before the Courts, not whether the woman broke a rule in the Montréal Métro. Handcuffs and impeding freedom of movement (a guarantee under Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms) are permitted in appropriate circumstances, but are a little much for a municipal by-law that carries a maximum $500 fine and does not fit the definition of "appropriate circumstances."
Isn’t the Supreme Court case effectively stating that the pictograph bylaw is unconstitutional? I’d expect that public transportation bylaws, which (at least in the UK) are regulations that have legal force since they’re underpinned by actual legislation, have to go through a certain amount of scrutiny. Signs, not so much. I think the guideline for a lot of the “hold on to handrails” type of signs is that a safety committee thinks that some behaviour is a good idea and wants to encourage it. Someone discounting what is effectively advice, say because they’ve got both hands full, shouldn’t be a finable offence. If the transport authority wants to prohibit a behaviour, as opposed to advise against it, they should create a bylaw sanctioning the prohibition. That bylaw then, at least in theory, would go though a review of its legality before it was enacted.
  #62  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:48 AM
Muffin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great White North
Posts: 20,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I knew that as soon as you had a woman in Quebec say "Sod this". Wth, dude? We're not that British, especially in Quebec.
It's not like the Independent Order of Daughter of the Empire was founded in the capital of Québec in support of soldiers fighting for the Queen in the Boer War.

More seriously, I think the rent-a-cop picked the wrong person to pick on. She's preparing for the Ontario Bar exam, and ran for the CPP in the federal election in London, Ontario.
Quote:
Originally from the Republic of Georgia, Kosoian is a former pro chess player and a master of five languages. She has several degrees including international law and relationships from UQAM University, as well as a Masters' degree in Political science from the UWO and a law degree from the University of Ottawa. In her bio, she describes herself as an advocate for the rule of law and personal freedoms. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...-who-1.5279412
The maladjusted dumb-ass who arrested her could not have picked on a person less likely to accept being illegally arrested.
__________________
Hour after hour, day after day, we paddled and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, wanting never to return.
  #63  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:02 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back, dammit!
Posts: 30,068
Imperial Order, muffin. Plus Empire, of course.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #64  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:06 PM
Northern Piper is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is back, dammit!
Posts: 30,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Imperial Order, muffin. Plus Empire, of course.
But I have a feeling it was likely Anglo Montréal ladies who mainly made up the founding group
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #65  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:03 PM
Muffin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great White North
Posts: 20,690
Yes, Imperial, not Independent. My memory must be failing. My grandmother and my mother were first Montréal and later Oakville IODE ladies, so I spent a fair bit of time in my youth sitting in when they were short a player for bridge.

Yeh, I can't imagine many if any Canadiens français were into the IODE. Back when the IODE was being formed, Henri Bourassa, Member of Parliament and founder of le Devoir, was strongly opposed to Canada supporting the British Empire's wars, did not want any Canadians fighting in the Boer War, and later opposed to conscription for WWI and WWII. I guess he got it from his grandfather, Louis-Joseph Papineau, who was a Lower Canada Member of Parliament who helped write the 92 Resolutions and was key to the Lower Canada 1837 Rebellion for responsible government.
__________________
Hour after hour, day after day, we paddled and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, wanting never to return.
  #66  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:16 PM
Muffin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great White North
Posts: 20,690
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last step of the rising stairs;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty a cell. Out, out, brief freedom!
Life's but an escalator with a poor police officer,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
His is a tale told as an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.



Summary:

A shit-for-brains employer trained a shit-for-brains cop that failing to hold the handrail was illegal when really it was not illegal.

The shit-for-brains cop should have known better, for when a cautionary sign looks like a cautionary sign, waddles like a cautionary sign, and quacks like a cautionary sign, then abductive reasoning should have been used rather than abducting the fine citizen.

Kosoian v. Société de transport de Montréal 2019 SCC 59, http://canlii.ca/t/j3ns9
. . . .
[6] In a free and democratic society, police officers may interfere with the exercise of individual freedoms only to the extent provided for by law. Every person can therefore legitimately expect that police officers who deal with him or her will comply with the law in force, which necessarily requires them to know the statutes, regulations and by laws they are called upon to enforce. Police officers are thus obliged to have an adequate knowledge and understanding of the statutes, regulations and by laws they have to enforce. Police forces and municipal bodies have a correlative obligation to provide police officers with proper training, including with respect to the law in force. Under Quebec law, a breach of these obligations may, depending on the circumstances, constitute a civil fault.
. . . .
[60] As professionals responsible for law enforcement, police officers must be able to exercise judgment with respect to the applicable law. They cannot rely blindly on the training and instructions given to them, nor can they mechanically follow internal policies, directives and procedures or usual police practices.

[61] Similarly, it is well established that police officers cannot avoid personal civil liability simply by arguing that they were merely carrying out an order that they knew or ought to have known was unlawful (Chartier, at p. 498; Chaput v. Romain, [1955] S.C.R. 834, at p. 842; Pelletier v. Cour du Québec, [2002] R.J.Q. 2215 (C.A.), at para. 37; Lacroix, “Responsabilité civile des forces policières”, at para. 16).

I think that last one – not avoiding personal civil liability when carrying out unlawful orders – is very important. “I was just following orders” normalizes unaccountability which, if left uncorrected, can lead to the normalization of atrocities.
__________________
Hour after hour, day after day, we paddled and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, wanting never to return.
  #67  
Old 12-05-2019, 04:07 PM
Yllaria is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Stockton
Posts: 10,968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
Yes and no. The "law" in question is not a proper provincial or federal law at all; it is merely a by-law of a municipal agency.

I had a look at the STM (Société de transport de Montréal) by-law R-036 (link here), and it does indicate that ignoring a pictogram is a violation of the by-law. From the link:

Further, under s. 26 of the by-law, anyone contravening s. 4(e) is liable to a fine of $75 to $500. . . .
I was tickled that clause 4(e) is part of Subsection I - Civic Spirit. I've never heard of a violation of Civic Spirit before. The rest of the list seems to be aimed at vagrants, vandals, and jerks. It's a Don't Be a Jerk bylaw!

Then I noticed that what's posted on the web is not a bylaw, it's the ADMINISTRATIVE CONSOLIDATION OF BY-LAW R-036.

Quote:
This administrative consolidation is a compilation of the original text of the By-law on the standards of safety and conduct to be observed by persons in the rolling stock and buildings operated by or for the Société de transport de Montréal and the amendment to such By-law since it was adopted.

It is a reference document and should not be considered an official version of the By-law. Please refer to the official French text of the By-law and its amendment as the official documents.
I wonder if it loses something in translation or if unsupported pictographs have been made unenforceable.
  #68  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:51 PM
Dr_Paprika is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South of Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,146
1. The mandate of the police is to enforce the law. They need to know and understand the law to do this. An understanding of when to give a gentle warning would be good. In fairness, in my experience police do know the law. The majority of cops are reasonable. Many are outstanding individuals, especially the modest ones.

2. When I was a student in Montreal, it was commonplace for people to get drunk and use the very long metallic space between the up and down escalators as a giant slide. This may violate by-laws. I know two people who broke ankles, since some of the Montreal metro escalators are the equivalent of four stories and take 2-3 minutes to ascend. They ended up installing metal bumps to discourage this.

3. The Supreme Court finding makes sense. Dividing liability between the metro and officer makes sense. I presume police have liability insurance they pay for and that personal payments come from this. If not, they should. Although I don’t agree with the actions given this side of the story, personally charging police for enforcing laws should require more severe misconduct than this. I am not an apologist, but even the police make mistakes, and one needs to look at them in broader context.
__________________
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017