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Old 12-01-2019, 07:58 PM
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Defend a Conservative in Some Way: FOR SHAME


Here's a fun idea, though: once in a while, if something occurs to you that might actually criticize a liberal or defend a conservative, post it in a thread like this. See how quickly people ignore what you wrote and start putting words in your mouth and making silly assumptions.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:06 PM
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Here's an idea; Don't try defending Trump with a nutty hypothetical that requires a multi-faceted complex series of assumptions, and then get all pissy when the flaws in your assumptions are pointed out.

Even though you are just asking questions.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:17 PM
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Here's an idea; Don't try defending Trump with a nutty hypothetical that requires a multi-faceted complex series of assumptions, and then get all pissy when the flaws in your assumptions are pointed out.

Even though you are just asking questions.
Mods, I meant to flesh this out, and did not realize I posted it. My mistake , if you wouldn't mind deleting it. Or leave it up. I'm cool either way. But I probably won't respond much, since I wanted to make my point more fully with examples and such. My apologies for the extra work, should you decide to take it down.

EP: Saying something that might not buy into every single detail of an otherwise justified attack on Trump is not necessarily defending him. And if you aren't smart enough to understand a multi-faceted set of assumptions, maybe you should just post in another forum, and stay out of arguments in Elections and Great Debates. And if you are referring to my supposition that Trump might not have originated the Biden stuff, only one person bothered to address it directly. Otherwise, no one pointed out shit.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:27 PM
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And what is it with some people, that their pathetic little minds can't handle a simple idea that not everything the media says about Trump is necessarily true when they are attacking him? But I am quite serious about my OP. Try it. TRY IT, MOTHERFUCKERS, IF YOU DARE!!! You will see very quickly what I'm talking about. But for some reason, I'll bet none of you lily-livered cowards will have the guts to do so. Wouldn't want to lose any street cred, now would we? And this is most important: refrain from making such statements as "Let me play devil's advocate for a moment", or otherwise making it oh so fucking clear that you of course aren't really serious about whatever you try to defend. I know this will be difficult, and the idea that someone might think you are a die-hard Trump supporter even for one fucking second is terrifying to you. And now, the really important part: people most definitely will assume this, so do not take my suggestion seriously if you can't handle it.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:42 PM
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EP: My apologies for implying you aren't smart. I'm sure you are. But I did not get "pissy", despite what you say. I defended myself calmly, but no one wanted to bother to listen.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:52 PM
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You seem to be saying in that other thread that thereís a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent.

Thatís entering flat earth territory. Especially after Mick Mulvaney held a press conference to say thatís exactly what happened.

Now, youíre turning this into a blame-game of mean libs or the mainstream media being out to get you. Did I wander into a Facebook anti-vaxx group?
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:54 PM
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Are you a newb in NYC , Fiddle? Trump has been a corrupt racist adulterer scumbag for decades and nearly all New Yorkers know it. Sure, I can defend some conservatives and condemn some liberals. Not a problem at all. Trump is irredeemable trash, though. There can be no rehabilitation, even if the Dow Jones hits 50,000.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:17 PM
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You seem to be saying in that other thread that there’s a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent.

That’s entering flat earth territory. Especially after Mick Mulvaney held a press conference to say that’s exactly what happened.

Now, you’re turning this into a blame-game of mean libs or the mainstream media being out to get you. Did I wander into a Facebook anti-vaxx group?
I truly have no idea why you would think that is what I was getting at. It would have been nice of you to respond in that thread, though. No offense as of now, but I'm not interested in discussing it anymore. No one wanted to discuss it over there, so why would it be any different in the Pit?

I have posted similarly in other threads, and every single fucking time, the same thing happens. For years, I did what most people do here, argue the viewpoint of my political affiliation. That is of course fine. But one day, it was either the Clinton vs Obama contest for the nomination, or Clinton vs Trump, I made a minor criticism of Clinton. You would have thought I claimed she murders puppies or something. The next time it occurred to me to do something in a similar vein, I paused for a moment. What's the use, I thought. The same thing will happen, so why bother? But then I decided it must have been an aberration, and also, why let the thoughtless replies of others decide for me what to post? So I went ahead with the same result.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying no one ever takes up the discussion. Many do, but the number of utterly false statements about what I supposedly said or implied goes up dramatically. I shudder to think what a newbie to the Dope would think if in their first post, they made an honest attempt to argue a viewpoint that was demonstrably false, but made it out of ignorance, and then they got the type of replies I'm used to by now. I can't think of a better way to drive people away from the Dope.

I've thought about making a post like this for quite a while now, so Mods, please do not take this down, and if you don't mind, change "SH" in the title to "SHAME!!!". All I'm saying is, when someone makes a statement that you Dopers don't agree with, at least take one fucking post, preferably the FIRST one, to tell them why you think they are wrong. At least do that.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:39 PM
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Are you a newb in NYC , Fiddle? Trump has been a corrupt racist adulterer scumbag for decades and nearly all New Yorkers know it. Sure, I can defend some conservatives and condemn some liberals. Not a problem at all. Trump is irredeemable trash, though. There can be no rehabilitation, even if the Dow Jones hits 50,000.
New Yorker since 1991. Fair enough, but that's not the point.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:39 PM
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You seem to be saying in that other thread that there’s a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent.
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he's just trying to describe some hypothetical scenario where Trump's motivations weren't as bad as they probably are. I get what he was saying (and just ignored it) but he's right in that however many people who engaged with him seemed not to understand the bizarre tightrope he was trying to walk and so it went back and forth until someone was just like, "Why are we even entertaining this? It's pointless." Which is also true.

There Fiddle Peghead, someone defended you. Sort of.

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I have posted similarly in other threads, and every single fucking time, the same thing happens. For years, I did what most people do here, argue the viewpoint of my political affiliation. That is of course fine. But one day, it was either the Clinton vs Obama contest for the nomination, or Clinton vs Trump, I made a minor criticism of Clinton. You would have thought I claimed she murders puppies or something. The next time it occurred to me to do something in a similar vein, I paused for a moment. What's the use, I thought. The same thing will happen, so why bother? But then I decided it must have been an aberration, and also, why let the thoughtless replies of others decide for me what to post? So I went ahead with the same result.
Certainly there's some truth to what you're saying. I've said on this board before that while I pride myself on trying real hard not to be biased, in that I objectively try to understand the facts about an issue, where my bias invariably shows through is in the posts I don't make. While I don't mean to imply a false equivalency between the crackpottery of the left and the right (see what I did there, having to precede my argument here with a preemptive rebuttal of what I know people would otherwise jump on me for is exactly the sort of thing you're talking about), there's a lot of BS that I just let slide because "it's not my fight." E.g., people who claim that Trump is a KGB asset or that he went to Russia in the 80s and has been working for Putin ever since, stuff like that. It's crackpottery but I don't care enough to say anything about it, and a good part of that is because it's "my side" saying it.

In this regard, I understand the frustration of conservative posters on this board. At the same time, my limited sympathy for their plight only goes so far considering some of the positions, platforms, candidates, and events that they choose to defend, despite their being no requirement for them to do so. As Blank Slate implies above, if you roll around with a pig like Trump, you're gonna get dirty.

Last edited by steronz; 12-01-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:59 PM
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So if someone takes what you're saying as an argument for why Trump isn't guilty, they're twisting your words, but if they just take it as a hypothetical that isn't actually relevant to whether Trump is guilty, they're ignoring what you're trying to say?
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:07 PM
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Either way, he's gonna climb up on that cross and pout.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:47 PM
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I truly have no idea why you would think that is what I was getting at.
Then you should be trying to figure out why. You can't know if the problem is with them or your communication style if you don't try to understand why someone has misunderstood you.

From this thread, you appear to be saying that some of what the mainstream media is saying about Trump is false. Thing is, these mainstream media outlets have decades of history of reporting the truth. It's how they remained news sources. Even when they make a mistake, they report on the mistake.

So it's up to you to provide evidence that a specific statement is false. There's no reason to entertain any hypothetical about the news being false without that. The reason to consider a hypothetical in a political conversation is that they reflect on something possibly factual.

Claiming it's "just a hypothetical" is a common technique of people who are trying to put forth an idea that people would otherwise dismiss as incorrect. You claim it's a hypothetical, get them to agree with your hypothetical, then reveal that the hypothetical was true all along. In other words, it's a "gotcha."

People in political conversations are hyperaware of the potential of gotchas, and will try to avoid falling into them. As such, things that look like gotchas are a poor way to argue.
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:09 PM
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Been there. Done that.

When Trump said that he was planning a major infrastructure program, I went on record supporting the program and supporting him for proposing it.

I was not ignored or attacked. Nobody put words in my mouth or made silly assumptions about me or what I wrote.
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:20 PM
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I've thought about making a post like this for quite a while now, so Mods, please do not take this down, and if you don't mind, change "SH" in the title to "SHAME!!!". All I'm saying is, when someone makes a statement that you Dopers don't agree with, at least take one fucking post, preferably the FIRST one, to tell them why you think they are wrong. At least do that.
What does "SH" mean? Who is it? Steven Hawking? Why defend a conservative for him? Or is it someone else?

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 12-01-2019 at 11:23 PM. Reason: LOVE EDIT BUTTON
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:42 PM
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Is there a motherfucking link for whatever you motherfuckers are fucking talking about?
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:59 PM
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Sealioning begins at post 5754

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...82607&page=116
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:05 AM
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Looking at that link, it appears that you came up with a hypothetical that you did not think through, and want us to consider it even though no one involved has made such a claim. And you did make it clear until several posts later that you do actually support Trump being impeached, and think that the scenario you gave is unlikely.

My response to that/advice is threefold:
  1. DON'T POST SHIT WITHOUT THINKING. You will be called on it when it turns out it is poorly thought out.
  2. Don't make up excuses for someone who is being accused. If they can't come up with it, then it obviously isn't the truth. The truth is the easiest explanation to come up with.
  3. When saying something that may make it look like you are defending the opposition, be sure to include a disclaimer.

If you instead give a well thought out post that uses what the accused has actually said, along with a disclaimer about how you want Trump gone from office, too, but can't dismiss the idea outright--if you did that, I'm confident you'd get a completely different response.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:15 AM
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Either way, he's gonna climb up on that cross and pout.
This. The repeated "qualifications" and "clarifications" when called on something so blatantly false as "the House isn't DOING ANYTHING about people ignoring subpoenas" alone is fucking pathetic.

The latest? "But I was talking about while the hearings were going on!"

Like has been pointed out: they still are.

OP got called on his shit and cranked up the persecution complex to whinge about being called on his shit.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Suppose, just suppose, that after hearing about this, Trump sees a way to actually do something as president, and it's based on the one thing he measures his worth by: money. He demands a hold be put on the aid until he can look into it, and being the master of the art of the deal, can then decide whether it's a good idea and makes sense for the U.S.
Ok, let's suppose this.
Quote:
Only after this does Giuliani come to Trump with his master plan to take down Biden. Trump thinks, why the hell not,
Imma gonna let you finish, but "it's an abuse of the Office of the President" is why the hell not.
Quote:
and then has his call with Zelensky. He is both truly concerned about a corrupt (in his head) Ukraine maybe getting aid it doesn't deserve, and now interested in political advantage that can be gained with the whole Biden thing.

A key thing here is when did Giuliani go to Trump with the Biden angle? If it was before Trump heard about the aid, then that delivers a huge blow to the above. Ah, but what if it was after?!
Actually, the key thing isn't when Giuliani invented this idea, or whether he invented this idea, the key thing is whether Trump made millions of dollars of military aid be contingent upon a foreign country taking down his political opponent.

It's not a hard concept.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:04 AM
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Here's a fun idea, though: once in a while, if something occurs to you that might actually criticize a liberal or defend a conservative, post it in a thread like this. See how quickly people ignore what you wrote and start putting words in your mouth and making silly assumptions.
Putting words in people's mouths and making assumptions; like this thread, for example?
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:49 AM
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I truly have no idea why you would think that is what I was getting at.
I read your posts in the other thread. You accused Dems of shirking their duty to get to the bottom of things, even though no factual matters are actually in dispute. You said Trump could be like a stopped clock that is right twice a day. You say that you aren't giving Trump the benefit of the doubt... and proceed to concoct scenarios to give him the benefit of the doubt. (Which is remarkably like Trump's "quid pro quo" defense -- there can still be a quid pro quo even if someone denies that's what it is; you are giving Trump a benefit of the doubt even though you are denying that you are.)

Quote:
It would have been nice of you to respond in that thread, though.
The other posters were handling your nonsense with diligence and panache.

Quote:
I have posted similarly in other threads, and every single fucking time, the same thing happens.
I'm not familiar with your posting history, but whenever someone complains that they always get treated the same way by people, again and again, usually the issue is with that person, not everyone else in the world.

You also have no reason to be familiar with my posting history, but I stand by my record of defending conservatives who I think have a good point, and criticizing liberals who are nuts. So if you're implying that people who disagree with you are a Borg-like collective, this is more evidence that you are the problem.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:54 PM
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What does "SH" mean? Who is it? Steven Hawking? Why defend a conservative for him? Or is it someone else?
I was confused by that, too. I saw "FOR SH" and mentally added "...ame?"
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:58 PM
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I thought it was "FOR SHO'"

Mine: I liked when President Trump signed into law the Ashanti Alert Act, creating a nationwide alert system for missing, endangered adults between the ages of 18 and 64.

I didn't like when President Obama commuted Chelsea Manning's sentence.

I shall await the implantation of silly words into my mouth.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:41 PM
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Here's an idea; Don't try defending Trump with a nutty hypothetical that requires a multi-faceted complex series of assumptions, and then get all pissy when the flaws in your assumptions are pointed out.

Even though you are just asking questions.
One could point out the same about Dems. I'm tired of pointing out that McConnell cannot stop an impeachment trial. Except they don't get pissy - they just ignore all of the facts and cites and go into another thread to spread the disinformation.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:15 PM
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One could point out the same about Dems. I'm tired of pointing out that McConnell cannot stop an impeachment trial. Except they don't get pissy - they just ignore all of the facts and cites and go into another thread to spread the disinformation.
If you think Yertle can't and won't stop the impeachment of Trump, I have a bridge for you. Despite Trump's own "transcript", despite asking the Chinese on camera
to slander his rival, despite the flood of witnesses, the Republicans are too determined to make sure they get to force women and girls to have rape babies, take away the vote from black people, and legislate their prosperity gospel version of the Bible into the Constitution.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:29 PM
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I thought it was "FOR SHO'"

Mine: I liked when President Trump signed into law the Ashanti Alert Act, creating a nationwide alert system for missing, endangered adults between the ages of 18 and 64.
I liked it when trump posthumously pardoned Jack Johnson.

I can't figure out WHY he did, or who told him, but it was about damn time. So many presidents could have, and so many whiffed.

I guess I am a trump enabler now.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:41 PM
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I know that Trump has no strategy past his short attentions span with respect to his trade war with China, but I have to say that I think that this was the one fight he started that was worth the picking: China's bullying tactics.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:00 PM
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I beg to differ with the OP's assertion. I have from time to time defended a conservative on this board. (Both in the sense of conservatives who are members here and in the sense of public-figure conservatives in the news).

I do not recall being jumped on to any marked extent for doing so. People may not have always agreed with me but they did not make me feel that expressing such a sentiment was going to result in me being dogpiled or ridiculed.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:10 PM
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If you think Yertle can't and won't stop the impeachment of Trump, I have a bridge for you.
How would he do it?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:20 PM
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How would he do it?
I suspect margin meant "removal".
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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Couldn't plow through all the OPs convoluted language, but it sorta sounded like one of those FB chain posts that you get from your dotty friend that says something like "Puppy mills are the work of the devil! I bet that nobody will share this post!"
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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How would he do it?
Come on. Do you REALLY think any Repubs in the Senate have the guts to vote guilty for the asshole that's giving them the Taliban judges of their dreams?

And I hate that I have to specify "the Senate"on order to forestall yet another round of, "Gee willikers, what in goodness' sake you possibly be implying about our dear honest brave patriotic saintly oppressed President?" playacting.

https://jonmcnaughton.com/crossing-t...p-10x15-litho/
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  #34  
Old 12-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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Been there. Done that.

When Trump said that he was planning a major infrastructure program, I went on record supporting the program and supporting him for proposing it.

I was not ignored or attacked. Nobody put words in my mouth or made silly assumptions about me or what I wrote.
Likewise I also said that Trump is right about the Fed being too hawkish with interest rates, and I didn't get dogpiled. But people aren't going to mistake me for a Trump-lover.

I suspect where FP goes wrong is he embraces the devil's advocate position well beyond the bounds of reason. i.e. yes a stopped clock is right twice a day, but it's right for the wrong reasons, and it's foolish to talk about the occasional accuracy of a clock that is demonstrably wrong 86,398 times a day.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:43 PM
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Okay, I've never actually spent longer than 3/4 of a second looking at this Trumplicker's "art". But this link has a magnifying glass feature and on the boat is John Bolton. How much does this guy regret having painted Bolton into the scene?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:45 PM
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Okay, I've never actually spent longer than 3/4 of a second looking at this Trumplicker's "art". But this link has a magnifying glass feature and on the boat is John Bolton. How much does this guy regret having painted Bolton into the scene?
Also they all seem to be armed for duck-hunting? Is the swamp actually infested with ducks? Won't they just fly away when you drain the swamp?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:55 PM
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Okay, I've never actually spent longer than 3/4 of a second looking at this Trumplicker's "art". But this link has a magnifying glass feature and on the boat is John Bolton. How much does this guy regret having painted Bolton into the scene?
Sarah Fuckabee Sanders is there, too.

But the pinnacle of Trump art are the ones that depict him as a.....Christian.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/...hton-explained

And don't even get me started on the Christian Trump hagiography.

Have some more of this guy. Got a bucket handy?
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  #38  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:02 PM
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For years, I did what most people do here, argue the viewpoint of my political affiliation. That is of course fine.
Its fine?

Have you ever considered arguing your own viewpoints, rather than those of your team? Or would that un-American?
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:08 PM
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To a certain degree I agree with the OP, but only to a certain degree.

I've experienced my share of people answering the questions they think you asked instead of the question actually asked or people trying to argue points you aren't making.

In this case, though, I'm failing to see the point of your argument. You proposed a hypothetical that has a dearth of facts to support it and, in the end, changes nothing about the responsibility Trump has for his own actions, regardless of the divination of the idea.

In short, you are correct to a certain extent. But the specific situation you are using as an example of this isn't really one I think demonstrates what you think it demonstrates.
  #40  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:34 PM
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And what is it with some people, that their pathetic little minds can't handle a simple idea that not everything the media says about Trump is necessarily true when they are attacking him?
The media has consistently slanted its coverage in his favor. He's just so utterly horrible in every way that even slanted coverage makes him look monstrous.

Trump is a monster, and supporting him is a monstrous act. So no, I don't have respect for people who defend him.
  #41  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:51 PM
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Okay, I've never actually spent longer than 3/4 of a second looking at this Trumplicker's "art". But this link has a magnifying glass feature and on the boat is John Bolton. How much does this guy regret having painted Bolton into the scene?
From the legend :
Quote:
List of figures from left to right: Nikki Haley, James Mattis, Ben Carson, President Trump, Jeff Sessions, Mike Pence, Melania Trump, Mike Pompeo, Sarah Sanders, Ivanka Trump, John Bolton, Kellyanne Conway, John Kelly
All those bolded have since either jumped out or been pushed out of the boat. And Mike Pompeo has been casting hopeful glances at life preservers for a couple weeks now. Only the best people !
  #42  
Old 12-02-2019, 09:18 PM
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I'll defend a conservative in this way: when every last "conservative" sell out pig is rounded up and put on trial for treason, I will defend their right to a fair and speedy trial.
  #43  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:20 PM
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Nah, that's Wilford Brimley.
  #44  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:15 PM
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Okay, I'll play: I was pleasantly surprised by Rep. Will Hurd's integrity during the Mueller hearings. He truly seemed to place country above party. And since then, of course, he has announced his retirement.
  #45  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:26 PM
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I'll support a conservative Republican when they introduce legislation to take suppressors and SBRs off the NFA.

Last edited by River Hippie; 12-02-2019 at 11:30 PM.
  #46  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:05 AM
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And what is it with some people, that their pathetic little minds can't handle a simple idea that not everything the media says about Trump is necessarily true when they are attacking him? But I am quite serious about my OP. Try it. TRY IT, MOTHERFUCKERS, IF YOU DARE!!! You will see very quickly what I'm talking about. But for some reason, I'll bet none of you lily-livered cowards will have the guts to do so....
This thread is all too "meta" for me to guess what nasty libtard lie got your goat up.

Which thing did the media say about Trump that isn't true?
  #47  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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I've called out people who were criticizing Trump and conservatives for things that probably didn't happen or weren't relevant several times, particularly in the SRIOTD thread. I've also defended conservatives by pointing out that someone accused of doing something stupid wasn't one. For the most part, nobody has said much about it.
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  #48  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:39 AM
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Been there. Done that.

When Trump said that he was planning a major infrastructure program, I went on record supporting the program and supporting him for proposing it.

I was not ignored or attacked. Nobody put words in my mouth or made silly assumptions about me or what I wrote.
Yep, I've been happy every time Trump mentioned the many upcoming infrastructure weeks. We definitely need to invest in our countries infrastructure.

Too bad Trump is as good at presidentin' as I am at opera singing.

Last edited by wguy123; 12-03-2019 at 09:40 AM.
  #49  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:05 AM
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And what is it with some people, that their pathetic little minds can't handle a simple idea that not everything the media says about Trump is necessarily true when they are attacking him? But I am quite serious about my OP. Try it. TRY IT, MOTHERFUCKERS, IF YOU DARE!!! You will see very quickly what I'm talking about. But for some reason, I'll bet none of you lily-livered cowards will have the guts to do so. Wouldn't want to lose any street cred, now would we? And this is most important: refrain from making such statements as "Let me play devil's advocate for a moment", or otherwise making it oh so fucking clear that you of course aren't really serious about whatever you try to defend. I know this will be difficult, and the idea that someone might think you are a die-hard Trump supporter even for one fucking second is terrifying to you. And now, the really important part: people most definitely will assume this, so do not take my suggestion seriously if you can't handle it.
Trump has been in public life for decades. He lies constantly. His character has been consistent across the years. His habit of lying about everything is the reason people have no reason to believe or trust him.

He has no virtues to his character at all. The only good thing one might expect of him at this point is that he will probably make good compost. The truth about him is unpleasant, but it has been consistantly portrayed accurately by the media. Where they have erred is treating him like an amusing buffoon instead of an evil lying traitor.
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  #50  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:08 PM
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He has no virtues to his character at all. The only good thing one might expect of him at this point is that he will probably make good compost.
He may be full of shit but years of self tanner abuse has made him too toxic to compost or cremate. When the time comes, he'll need to be disposed of like hazardous waste material.
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