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  #34601  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
They put it on Facebook - see if this works.

https://www.facebook.com/thedailysho...258650&sfns=mo
Wow.

Democrats need to play this on network TV constantly until the election.
  #34602  
Old 07-17-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mind's Eye, Watering View Post
Wow.

Democrats need to play this on network TV constantly until the election.
This is how it works:

Republican says that America is terrible, and a laughing stock, and the American dream is dead, and that America is full of drugs and gangs and poverty and awfulness..... That's OK because by saying the country is shit, he really means that Democrats are shit.

Democrat says that Trump is terrible for the country, and his policies are doing nothing to address the very real problems that people face..... That is bad, because by saying that Trump is a useless pile of crap, she really means that she hates the country and is a socialist.

That is the logic that is at play here. And there is nothing you can do to change people's minds. They are perfectly happy holding these two thoughts in their head at the same time.
  #34603  
Old 07-17-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
They are perfectly happy holding these two thoughts in their head at the same time.
The "cuckoo clock in hell", from Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night:
Quote:
I have never seen a more sublime demonstration of the totalitarian
mind, a mind which might be likened unto a system of gears whose
teeth have been filed off at random. Such a snaggle-toothed thought
machine, driven by a standard or even substandard libido, whirls
with the jerky, noisy, gaudy pointlessness of a cuckoo clock in
Hell.

The boss G-man concluded wrongly that there were no teeth on the
gears in the mind of Jones. "You're completely crazy," he said.

Jones wasn't completely crazy. The dismaying thing about the
classic totalitarian mind is that any given gear, though mutilated,
will have at its circumference unbroken sequences of teeth that are
immaculately, that are exquisitely machined.

Hence the cuckoo clock in Hell-keeping perfect time for eight
minutes and thirty-three seconds, jumping ahead fourteen minutes,
keeping perfect time for six seconds, jumping ahead two seconds,
keeping perfect time for two hours and one second, then jumping
ahead a year.

The missing teeth, of course, are simple, obvious truths, truths
available and comprehensible even to ten-year-olds, in most cases.

The wilful filing off of gear teeth, the wilful doing without
certain obvious pieces of information--

That was how a household as contradictory as one composed of
Jones, Father Keeley, Vice-Bundesfuehrer Krapptaer, and the Black
Fuehrer could exist in relative harmony--

That was how my father-in-law could contain in one mind an
indifference toward slave women and love for a blue vase--

That was how Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz, could alternate
over the loudspeakers of Auschwitz great music and calls for
corpse-carriers--

That was how Nazi Germany could sense no important differences
between civilization and hydrophobia--

That is the closest I can come to explaining the legions, the
nations of lunatics I've seen in my time.
(I never understood the libido bit, but I'm not Kurt Freaking Vonnegut.)
  #34604  
Old 07-17-2019, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
The "cuckoo clock in hell", from Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night:
(I never understood the libido bit, but I'm not Kurt Freaking Vonnegut.)
Libido is one of those words that can refer to sex, like intercourse, that has a more general meaning that has fallen into disuse. My dictionary app defines libido as "instinctual psychic energy that is derived from primitive biological urges (survival, sex) and that is expressed in conscious activity".
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  #34605  
Old 07-17-2019, 02:06 PM
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Libido is one of those words that can refer to sex, like intercourse, that has a more general meaning that has fallen into disuse. My dictionary app defines libido as "instinctual psychic energy that is derived from primitive biological urges (survival, sex) and that is expressed in conscious activity".
Interesting, thanks. That does make a lot more sense. I wonder when that meaning dropped off entirely.
  #34606  
Old 07-17-2019, 02:40 PM
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The text of Congressman Al Green's impeachment resolution:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...trump-n1030611
  #34607  
Old 07-17-2019, 03:16 PM
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They put it on Facebook - see if this works.

https://www.facebook.com/thedailysho...258650&sfns=mo

Shared, thanks!
  #34608  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:12 PM
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Live C-SPAN feed from House for impeachment vote.
  #34609  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:24 PM
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It's a motion to table the vote and it looks like it passed
  #34610  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:27 PM
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Yep, Democrat vote split (as was expected).

Coming up on C-SPAN: contempt vote of Barr and Ross, and more nice classical music...
  #34611  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:37 PM
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I think this impeachment vote may be for reasons related to Trump's bigotry, rather than obstruction as detailed in the Mueller Report, which explains why Amash has voted to kill the resolution.

CNN:
Quote:
Green said he chose to move forward with his resolution because he thinks Congress should send Trump "a powerful message that this country will not tolerate bigotry, racism, hate, xenophobia, Islamophobia."

He noted that his impeachment resolution is not connected to Mueller or the findings of his investigation.

"You don't delay justice. The Mueller hearing has nothing to do with what we're doing now. The Mueller hearing is all about obstruction, this is about bigotry and racism and that racism that's been infused into policy," Green said.
I wish C-SPAN had "Now Playing" info for the music.
  #34612  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Green said he chose to move forward with his resolution because he thinks Congress should send Trump "a powerful message that this country will not tolerate bigotry, racism, hate, xenophobia, Islamophobia."
I guess tabling it sent a powerful message, eh?
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  #34613  
Old 07-17-2019, 05:39 PM
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The House has voted to hold A.G. Barr and Commerce Secretary Ross in criminal contempt of Congress over census question: 230-198
  #34614  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:06 PM
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I guess tabling it sent a powerful message, eh?
Calling for a vote you know you'll lose: not smart.

I sympathize with Green's passion to see Donald slapped across the face, but it wasn't going to happen today. And of course an actual impeachment vote (not just inquiry) means Senate acquittal within days---and that means no more hearings and no more investigation. How could they hold hearings about a guy declared innocent?
  #34615  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:41 PM
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He's doing his touchdown celebration on TV now.

I've it said again and again and again: Trump loves this impeachment shit. Absolutely fucking loves it. He absolutely wants the Democrats to do it over and over again. He knows he'll win because Democrats don't have the votes. And they won't until the voters have clearly turned against him, and also I've said again, most voters don't give a flying fuck about anything other than their bank accounts.
  #34616  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:42 PM
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Fighting for principles is never smart. It's just, y'know, right.
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  #34617  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:56 PM
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Fighting for principles is never smart. It's just, y'know, right.
So you're fine with yea-many more years of Trump, just so long as you can feel all righteous?

I hope that's not what you're saying. Because it's not righteous. It's fascism-enabling.
  #34618  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:10 PM
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So you're fine with yea-many more years of Trump, just so long as you can feel all righteous?
...its only your opinion that impeachment will result in "many more years of Trump."

Quote:
I hope that's not what you're saying. Because it's not righteous. It's fascism-enabling.
The process of a legislative body leveling charges against a government official is not "fascism-enabling." Its the very opposite.

What you are doing? Advocating to not hold Trump and his administration to account using the appropriate legal means? Using hyperbole, fear, demonization and lies every time someone brings up impeachment?

You are enabling facism.
  #34619  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:21 PM
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Fighting for principles is never smart. It's just, y'know, right.
It depends on how you fight - that's what matters.

One thing that is conspicuously absent is mass protest. The president has unabashedly, unashamedly said racist things and threatened to defy a Supreme Court ruling - and that's just in the past two weeks. I don't see protesters anywhere. There might be a lot of cute memes and lots of "sick burn" on twitter and facebook, but I don't see any indications that people are actually in a mood to take to the streets over this.

Unless people themselves are angry enough to send a clear message to congress, I wouldn't expect House democrats to play with a crystal ball and try to imagine a scenario in which they succeed an impeaching and removing a president when they don't have any power outside the House.

Last edited by asahi; 07-17-2019 at 07:23 PM.
  #34620  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:53 PM
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So you're fine with yea-many more years of Trump, just so long as you can feel all righteous?
Fiat justitia et ruant coeli. I'm fine with acting righteous in all things and at all times, everything else is surplus to requirements. Conscience is the only thing we're buried with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi
It depends on how you fight - that's what matters.
True dat. One cannot preach the straight path while advancing in meanders.
Well one demonstrably can, but one is an asshat in that case .

Quote:
One thing that is conspicuously absent is mass protest.
True dat too IMO, but then again I'm French. And not just French - Parisian French. We stage a general strike when the break room's coffee is lukewarm*. Sometimes it even works.

(*not really. But it's an historically, notoriously turbulent city)
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Last edited by Kobal2; 07-17-2019 at 07:53 PM.
  #34621  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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One thing that is conspicuously absent is mass protest. ...

Unless people themselves are angry enough to send a clear message to congress, I wouldn't expect House democrats to play with a crystal ball and try to imagine a scenario in which they succeed an impeaching and removing a president when they don't have any power outside the House.
Yes, there's a lot of current calculation by members of Congress that would change---radically---in the face of mass protests.


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Fiat justitia et ruant coeli. I'm fine with acting righteous in all things and at all times, everything else is surplus to requirements. Conscience is the only thing we're buried with. ...
In this case, the 'heavens falling' could be far more serious than you dream of.

Indulging a desire---in this case, a desire for the momentary satisfaction of seeing Trump embarrassed---with zero regard for the consequences, is the very definition of "irresponsible immorality." It's the opposite of right. It's the antithesis of justice.

No person with a working conscience would advocate for acting in disregard of consequences.
  #34622  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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We'll see how the polls react in the wake of the tabled impeachment attempt. I predict they will remain pretty much as they are now, and Trump will be no more popular tomorrow than yesterday.

I don't believe, as some of you do, that a failed Senate trial will "hand the presidency" to Trump in 2020. Again, his support will remain about the same, from the MAGAts and from the "can't vote Democrat" crowd. I do believe that it will energize the Democratic turnout, as a matter of outrage and necessity.
As a matter of strategy, it's better to be on the offensive, set the terms, build some momentum, rather than simply continually retreating and hoping that "things will turn around" on their own. It works in war, it works in politics, it works on human psychology and sociology.
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  #34623  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:13 PM
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The USA is in big fucking trouble, folks.
  #34624  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:15 PM
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At least we know the Trump 2020 campaign slogan.
  #34625  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:33 PM
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Any day now, they're going to be saying that Democrats are dividing the country with all this hatred.
  #34626  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:39 PM
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In this case, the 'heavens falling' could be far more serious than you dream of.
Indulging a desire---in this case, a desire for the momentary satisfaction of seeing Trump embarrassed---with zero regard for the consequences, is the very definition of "irresponsible immorality." It's the opposite of right. It's the antithesis of justice.
No person with a working conscience would advocate for acting in disregard of consequences.
Hyperbolic, much ?

Besides, what do you think is the apocalyptic consequence ? That putting forward a motion to impeach is going to lose Democrats the vote of Trumpists in 2020 ? Are you high ? Or, in the case of undecided independants and Democrats, what do you think inspires more : wringing one's hands complaining that Trump gets to break every rule, every tradition, every fucking law and if a Democrat did half of a percent of what he does the GOP would never let them live it down but doing FUCK ALL ELSE ; or actually standing up and saying "This shit is enough." ?

You don't appease, you don't mollify fascists. You tell them to fuck off, and encourage others to tell them too. You show people that they're not alone in thinking this shit is getting sorta weirdish ; and that there's more of the righteous than the monsters. And together you make the fascists fuck off.

But all that is calculation of course. And superfluous. Act right, and people will follow you. Stand up, and people will get off their knees. It's called "leading". Or they shoot you in the back and gleefully let the whole world burn. You know, whichever. The important thing is you tried .
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Last edited by Kobal2; 07-17-2019 at 08:39 PM.
  #34627  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:39 PM
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I confess: I tuned in to that goddamn Nuremberg rally, I mean, Trump rally. I figured if I wanted to know what it was like to live in the times of Orville Faubus or Strom Thurmond, maybe I could see it for myself on YouTube. God, some not so insignificant portion of this country is fucking sick, and another not so insignificant percentage seems just plain indifferent.

I would imagine I am not being divorced from reality if I were to assume that out there somewhere is a bigoted sicko who's taking his cues from this administration and plotting something nasty. The atmosphere reminds me of the early to mid-1990s when AM talk radio shock jocks were speaking to impressionable right wing fanatics like Tim McVeigh.
  #34628  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:42 PM
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Of course, enough Republicans might realize that if they vote yea for impeachment in the Senate... it's not as if they will have to answer to Donald Trump. He'll be gone.

And I just might inherit a ranch, with horses.

Last edited by JohnT; 07-17-2019 at 08:42 PM.
  #34629  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:42 PM
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The atmosphere reminds me of the early to mid-1990s when AM talk radio shock jocks were speaking to impressionable right wing fanatics like Tim McVeigh.
Oh, it's much worse now.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-17-2019 at 08:42 PM.
  #34630  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:42 PM
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The USA is in big fucking trouble, folks.
...I read this post. And a few seconds later I clicked a link off a tweet to this: the day 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City. The footage seemed so unreal, like a scene from Bioshock 3. But it happened. And now we are holding rallies where the President is listening to thousands of people yelling "send her back" and he just smiles. And nods. And continues.

"Big fucking trouble" almost sounds hilariously understated. But yeah, the USA is in big fucking trouble.
  #34631  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:20 PM
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Individual 1's campaign manager, Brad Parscale, is tweeting about how Individual 1's rally in Greenville, North Carolina set a new record. 20,000 people! The arena only holds 8000 people.
  #34632  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:30 PM
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Individual 1's campaign manager, Brad Parscale, is tweeting about how Individual 1's rally in Greenville, North Carolina set a new record. 20,000 people! The arena only holds 8000 people.
Can the Fire Marshall issue a citation(or whatever) based on such a confession?

  #34633  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:58 PM
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I, nonetheless, remain guardedly optimistic, in the long-term view. ShitGibbon is like Saturn with respect to Voyager II: we will pass suffocatingly close to him in order to put ourselves on the optimal trajectory.

I learned a word the other day and it seems to fit here. The rational not-RW will gradually gain control of the US and start unfucking the nation. It will be like the birth of real progress, and the current president will be seen as its meconium.
  #34634  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:01 PM
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Individual 1's campaign manager, Brad Parscale, is tweeting about how Individual 1's rally in Greenville, North Carolina set a new record. 20,000 people! The arena only holds 8000 people.
Trump's team clearly is keen to tie the 20,000 American Nazi rally in New York in February 1939. Funny that the numbers match.
  #34635  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:10 PM
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Individual 1's campaign manager, Brad Parscale, is tweeting about how Individual 1's rally in Greenville, North Carolina set a new record. 20,000 people! The arena only holds 8000 people.
Hey, if we can get people to believe it, who cares if it's factual? Don't need no stinkin' facts.
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  #34636  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:19 PM
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The rally was 40,000 people, and Dear Leader Trump himself composed the theme music and choreographed the 100 Llama dance troupe.
  #34637  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:45 PM
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That is some truly scary shit - never knew about this. And to think how much of his scum base would view that and not really have much of a problem with it.
  #34638  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:54 PM
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Besides, what do you think is the apocalyptic consequence ? That putting forward a motion to impeach is going to lose Democrats the vote of Trumpists in 2020 ?
For the ones who would be encouraged by such a step, there are still others for whom impeachment would have the opposite reaction - some would see Trump not suffering any consequences after being cleared by the Senate as an actual exoneration. Others would be disheartened by seeing no real consequences other than some people (once again) saying Trump is a terrible criminal but not having any ability to do much more than formally declaring it. Others would see it purely as a political ploy ahead of the next elections instead of an airing of legitimate grievances. For older voters, Clinton's impeachment would come to mind - and yes that was purely political.

There is a real chance the actual effect would be net additional votes for Trump in 2020 through some combination of energizing his base to come out and leading those would would vote against him to stay home instead. A large number of people, and not just Republicans, are either ambivalent or antagonistic towards the concept. It's slowly changing because of how awful this administration is, but impeachment is not a step most people take lightly. And even if they think it's viable, many do not realize it's not an automatic ejection from office but rather will result in a trial in the (Republican held) Senate. So, yes, the actual effects are a serious consideration and not so clear-cut. It's naive and/or ignorant in the extreme to think there is no possible downside.

I'm really not sure what you think the actual end result will be. Possibly not American? Because you seem intelligent, so this seems to be driven more by unfamiliarity with what impeachment entails. To be fair, most Americans also don't understand with impeachment entails, but most Americans are also idiots.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 07-17-2019 at 10:56 PM.
  #34639  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:56 PM
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The rally was 40,000 people, and Dear Leader Trump himself composed the theme music and choreographed the 100 Llama dance troupe.

Absolutely, and the 80,000 people all said that they were impressed 160,000 could fit, but TRUMP made it work ! Believe me, nobody could have drawn 320,000 overnight like that. It's true. It's true.


As for optimism... I remain doubtful. I'm somewhat optimistic Trump won't get a second term (because even Americans are not THAT stupid. We'll call Bush 2 a mulligan) but he's not a cause. He's a symptom of a disease that is wider than the US and that, unlike what I'd been hoping for the past 20 years or so isn't just a question of doddering old assholes who can't fucking die soon enough.
No, there are plenty of eager new fascists to replace the old, in Europe as much as in the US. And I have no idea why. I thought we were making token progress.
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  #34640  
Old 07-17-2019, 10:57 PM
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Trump's team clearly is keen to tie the 20,000 American Nazi rally in New York in February 1939. Funny that the numbers match.
...yep. I saw that post immediately after mine and went "Holy shit." Another dog-whistle. With obvious plausible deniability.
  #34641  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:32 PM
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...I read this post. And a few seconds later I clicked a link off a tweet to this: the day 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City. The footage seemed so unreal, like a scene from Bioshock 3. But it happened. And now we are holding rallies where the President is listening to thousands of people yelling "send her back" and he just smiles. And nods. And continues.

"Big fucking trouble" almost sounds hilariously understated. But yeah, the USA is in big fucking trouble.

That video is disturbing today for a number of reasons. One reason is the absolute delight, apparently orgiastic delight, one of the "Hitler youth" on stage has when the protestor is getting the daylights beaten out of him. Next is the repetition of "Jewish-controlled" whatever. The crowd was eating that up. Of course the demonization of the press is somethign Trump copies on a moment by moment basis.

I did find myself wondering, though, how many of those bastards found themselves in the US Armed Forces after the US entered WWII. Oh, and a fun thing was noticing all the German signage. I thought those bastards hated foreigners.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:42 PM
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No, there are plenty of eager new fascists to replace the old, in Europe as much as in the US. And I have no idea why. I thought we were making token progress.
Rebound. History is a line, but like any transitory it's more of an up and down and up and down wave than a straight line. Any social change in one direction will be followed by another one in the opposite, which will most definitely be of the same size as the first but also not necessarily smaller.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:45 PM
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For the ones who would be encouraged by such a step, there are still others for whom impeachment would have the opposite reaction - some would see Trump not suffering any consequences after being cleared by the Senate as an actual exoneration. Others would be disheartened by seeing no real consequences other than some people (once again) saying Trump is a terrible criminal but not having any ability to do much more than formally declaring it.

True, but the answer in both cases is : try again, try harder ; not "oh well, we tried". If anything, personally a complete failure to impeach (especially if due to Republican obstructing), or impeachement passing but doing diddly squat (which I'm aware it wouldn't) would get me off my arse to vote in a hurry. Whereas the opposition just doing ladeeda (but deploring, but there's nothing to do, and...; or worse posturing but taking no risk whatsoever) would be a lot more discouraging.



Quote:
Others would see it purely as a political ploy ahead of the next elections instead of an airing of legitimate grievances. For older voters, Clinton's impeachment would come to mind - and yes that was purely political.
I really doubt that one. Even the most foolish must surely realize that Trump is something else, and orders of magnitudes more depraved than even Nixon (NIXON !) - some just cheer that and fuck them where they live ; and those who don't even realize are presumably suspended in a vat of primal Fox News goo and would never vote Democrat in a million years anyway.

I may well be wrong - I wouldn't have bet a wooden nickel on Trump getting elected in the first place soooo...


Quote:
There is a real chance the actual effect would be net additional votes for Trump in 2020 through some combination of energizing his base to come out and leading those would would vote against him to stay home instead. A large number of people, and not just Republicans, are either ambivalent or antagonistic towards the concept. It's slowly changing because of how awful this administration is, but impeachment is not a step most people take lightly. And even if they think it's viable, many do not realize it's not an automatic ejection from office but rather will result in a trial in the (Republican held) Senate. It's So, yes, the actual effects are a serious consideration. It's naive and/or ignorant in the extreme to think there is no possible downside.

I don't think there's no *possible* downside. But neither you nor I can read the future. So in our perpetual blindness and doubt we do what's right, and hope for the best.

And if Trump isn't a reasonable approximation of what your Founders had in mind when they thought to include an impeachement process in the whole deal, who the hellfuck is ? Actual Satan in Imperial Japanese garb, trampling over screaming babies on a radioactive chariot made of puppy bones ?


It's not even that he's racist, and it's not that he's incompetent, and it's not that he's an ornery asshole, and it's not that he's a blithering idiot - former Presidents have been all that, in various combinations. It's that he lies, all the time, about everything no matter how unimportant ; it's that he actively, deliberately erodes every single one of your institutions (and good luck restoring trust in them...) ; and is ultimately solely concerned about the trough he and his cronies are elbow deep in. He doesn't give one shit about the country, or its laws, or the future, or people. He only cares about himself and his money. And the worst part is ? It's not even money money, because he's too unimaginative to come up with ambitious cons, too timorous for truly heroic bribery. So he contents himself with making the Secret Service or lobbyists pay for their rooms at Mar-A-Lago and penny-ante shit of that nature. It's fucking pathetic.


And none of that would have flown if W. Bush had done it, or Obama had done it, or anyone else. He's openly pissing on over half the country (something that, again, even W. Bush with his own set of lies and his own partisan GOP never did). So... what are y'all waiting for ? What are you guys doing ? Do you think he, his cronies, his electorate will just go away ? That his manure will just cleanly wash away overnight if only he's beaten in 2020 ?


Quote:
I'm really not sure what you think the actual end result will be. Possibly not American? Because you seem intelligent, so this seems to be driven more by unfamiliarity with what impeachment entails. To be fair, most Americans also don't understand with impeachment entails, but most Americans are also idiots.

I know it's just akin to Teach threatening to put a black dot next to your name on the blackboard. On its own it accomplishes nothing. It's just a symbol. But some symbols are necessary. Not everything can be politickal manoeuvering ; calculated, cynical vote-counting and hog trading. Because it's cynical vote-counting and hog trading that give rise to monsters they thought they could control, or wouldn't do too much harm and would placate hoi polloi. I know that invoking Hitler... but still, y'know. Hitler. Or Franco if you prefer. Trump is bad enough, what if the next cunt is just as racist, just as cruel, just as corrupt but has a brain in his head, a basic understanding of subtlety or subterfuge ?



And, like it or not, this shit matters beyond the borders of the US because there are toooons of fevered little egos around the world who are going "wait... wait, you can actually DO that ? And get away with it ?!". And they grow bolder, more openly brown-shirtier all the time. Because... well yeah, apparently, you can actually do that.


I don't want that "new normal" to spread. At all. Help me out.
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:30 AM
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True, but the answer in both cases is : try again, try harder ; not "oh well, we tried".
Well, that's the point, innit?

The Dems in congress ARE trying. It's not Impeachment or Nothing. There's more than two options here. I'll admit impeachment is the most dramatic and the option that is most like a Hollywood thriller. But it's also probably the option that produces the least actual results.

There's the options they are already pursing, which include investigations, hearings, etc. So far, this has led to the resignations, departures, and prosecutions of more than a few scumbags and will lead to even more.

Sure, that's not the flashiest method but it's the one that's been producing real results.

That's not the opposition doing la-dee-da. It's the opposition not acting like drama queens.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
would never vote Democrat in a million years anyway.
I think you are missing the point here. It's not just about changing the mind of voters. It's about who shows up (or not) to vote in the first place.

A failed impeachment may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead.

Trump will not win the popular vote. He didn't in 2016 and won't in 2020. He'll lose the popular vote by millions of votes. But that doesn't matter. The 2016 election actually hinged on 70-80000 net votes in a few key states - battleground states which tend to be more receptive to Trump than you would think.

So, yes, these kinds of small margins based on who shows up (or not) is important. That's not a lot of votes. Maybe impeachment proceedings end up making the difference either way. That's not something to take lightly. It's well and good for individual members of Congress to pontificate - they only have to appease their own constituents. But party leadership has to think more nationally than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
And if Trump isn't a reasonable approximation of what your Founders had in mind when they thought to include an impeachement process in the whole deal, who the hellfuck is ?
It may be, but they also had in mind that the President wouldn't have so much power. What they envisioned and what actually came to pass are two entirely different things.

Impeachment, as actually implemented, has been entirely a political ploy the only times it's been used. The only time it may have worked, the jackass resigned before it was too late.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
And none of that would have flown if W. Bush had done it, or Obama had done it
Nah, W could have gotten away with it too but he's not a terrible excuse for a human being.


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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I know it's just akin to Teach threatening to put a black dot next to your name on the blackboard. On its own it accomplishes nothing. It's just a symbol. But some symbols are necessary. Not everything can be politickal manoeuvering ; calculated, cynical vote-counting and hog trading.
Sure, symbols are important. But if the end result is that he gets away with it, that symbolic gesture may backfire. I'm not saying it may not be worth it, but I'm saying it's not exactly as simple a decision as you are making out. You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do. That's a credit to your faith in humanity, but it may also end up being terribly naive.


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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Trump is bad enough, what if the next cunt is just as racist, just as cruel, just as corrupt but has a brain in his head, a basic understanding of subtlety or subterfuge ?
Could be. Impeachment still doesn't stop that. The brown shirts in the US (and elsewhere) are ALREADY emboldened. The next guy well could be just as racist, corrupt, and cruel but competent instead.

Again, probably a difference in the level of cynicism. I think there are only two viable solutions. One is a wave of national violence or global conflict that results in something once again approximating the post-war peace (well, mostly peace) we enjoyed after WWII. Another is the slow, steady building of votes from the ground up. Guess which one I fear is the only realistic option.

In the meantime, rather than the circus of an impeachment, the best option appears to be the one that's currently being employed - keep the pressure up on all his enablers and toadies. Several are in prison and others are hiding. He himself is feeling the pressure. Bring all that filth to light, as has been done to this point. It's not flashy or dramatic, but it's producing results.

Personally, I actually am in favor of getting those articles of impeachment out there - in January or February. Distract that jackass with a million headlines and leaks and revelations and Congressional hearings while he'd prefer to be on the campaign trail. Do it now, and it does end up being symbolic - that you can get away with it and the opposition can do little more than whine and throw hissy fits.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 07-18-2019 at 12:32 AM.
  #34645  
Old 07-18-2019, 02:17 AM
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Really, it all depends on how the criminal contempt charges against Barr and Ross play out. That's the second-biggest gun the House has, and if it fails in the courts or Trump declares it all executive whatever, there's nothing left to do.

And frankly, selfishly, I want to see the result for good or ill. Because if (when) McConnell blocks a motion (can he do that with impeachment?) or the Senate acquits, and somehow that unholy fascist is elected again, we'll know what country we live in. I'm single, childless, and old, and Ecuador is calling. (Yeah, yeah, South American politics. At least it's cheap and beautiful.)
  #34646  
Old 07-18-2019, 03:01 AM
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Really, it all depends on how the criminal contempt charges against Barr and Ross play out. That's the second-biggest gun the House has, and if it fails in the courts or Trump declares it all executive whatever, there's nothing left to do.

And frankly, selfishly, I want to see the result for good or ill. Because if (when) McConnell blocks a motion (can he do that with impeachment?) or the Senate acquits, and somehow that unholy fascist is elected again, we'll know what country we live in. I'm single, childless, and old, and Ecuador is calling. (Yeah, yeah, South American politics. At least it's cheap and beautiful.)
McConnell cannot block the motion in the House, of course. I wouldn't have said he could choose not to have a trial in the Senate, but I would have said the same thing about voting on the president's choice for the Supreme Court, as well. Even if he lets the trial proceed in the Senate, I gather there's various things he can (and will) do to limit discussion a great deal. And of course, with the Senate in fascist Republican hands, Trump is highly unlikely to be convicted.
My opinion on the practicality of going through all this, despite there being almost no chance of conviction, is stated above.
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Last edited by galen ubal; 07-18-2019 at 03:02 AM.
  #34647  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:22 AM
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Rebound. History is a line, but like any transitory it's more of an up and down and up and down wave than a straight line. Any social change in one direction will be followed by another one in the opposite, which will most definitely be of the same size as the first but also not necessarily smaller.
...most definitely NOT be of the same size as the first…


What a difference a little word can make!


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Originally Posted by Great Antibob View Post
I think you are missing the point here. It's not just about changing the mind of voters. It's about who shows up (or not) to vote in the first place.
kobal2 was using "voter" to mean "people who have the right to vote", not "registered voters" or "people who actually go vote" (says my crystal ball, based on these two meanings respectively not existing and rarely being used, in France). He's not talking only about shifting votes from one party or one candidate to another but also of shifting them from "didn't go vote" to "actually moved arse off chair".
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Last edited by Nava; 07-18-2019 at 04:27 AM.
  #34648  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:14 AM
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Any day now, they're going to be saying that Democrats are dividing the country with all this hatred.
That ship has long since sailed, hit an iceberg, sunk, and had a James Cameron film made about it. It's a common right-wing trope, along with "It's Obama's fault there's all this racism".
  #34649  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:23 AM
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...I read this post. And a few seconds later I clicked a link off a tweet to this: the day 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City. The footage seemed so unreal, like a scene from Bioshock 3. But it happened. And now we are holding rallies where the President is listening to thousands of people yelling "send her back" and he just smiles. And nods. And continues.

"Big fucking trouble" almost sounds hilariously understated. But yeah, the USA is in big fucking trouble.
While it comes as no surprise that Trump and his supporters are racist shitwipes, the response from American voters in 2020 is going to speak volumes. I wish I could predict in which way.
  #34650  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:25 AM
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kobal2 was using "voter" to mean "people who have the right to vote", not "registered voters" or "people who actually go vote" (says my crystal ball, based on these two meanings respectively not existing and rarely being used, in France). He's not talking only about shifting votes from one party or one candidate to another but also of shifting them from "didn't go vote" to "actually moved arse off chair".

That I was ! You can put a notch on your crystal ball
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