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  #51  
Old 06-10-2019, 01:30 PM
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After hearing all the hype about The Great God Pan I expected it to be somewhat risque but after reading it and finding it boring. I can't help wondering if they were reacting to the weirdly hentai style illustrations.

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Old 06-10-2019, 02:35 PM
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Judging from movies, radio and from real-life accounts, hitchhiking was incredibly common in the 1970s and before - people could count on being able to travel by hitching and people passing by felt a social obligation to pick people up along the side of the road.
I hitchhiked to work almost every day in the 70s. It was so common, that you had a choice of rides: "Guess I'll put my thumb down til this old pickup goes by, there's a sportier car coming along." If I ever needed a ride right away, I had a "Help! Going To Be Late For Work" sign

When I did drive, I often picked up four people, my car's max occupancy. If no one picked you up, you could always wait for that one hippie dude who drove a VW bus... or the Ol' Prospector, who had a guest book on his dashboard.

It all ended abruptly in the early 80s. I remember thanking a woman who picked me up with the line "I'm going to write a book: Hitchin' in The Reagan Years. NO ONE is stopping any more... so thank you!"
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:07 PM
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In one 1930s cartoon Popeye, mistakenly believing that Swee'Pea has been naughty, prepares to administer discipline by picking up a stout piece of wood.
In fairness to Popeye's writers, he never gets around to using it and feels great remorse for even thinking about it.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:10 PM
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In the classic "comedy" "Refer Madness", the young men and women who are about to be corrupted by the scourge, marijuana all casually puff on cigarettes as though it is completely natural and wholesome.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:13 PM
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Eh, I hitchhiked a bit in the past decade or so, once I realized that it was a much more reliable way of getting to and from the airport than the local cab company.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:35 PM
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After hearing all the hype about The Great God Pan I expected it to be somewhat risque but after reading it and finding it boring. I can't help wondering if they were reacting to the weirdly hentai style illustrations.
Reading Arthur Machen for the juicy parts is bound to lead to disappointment. Dont let it dissuade you from The White People, though, which totally lives up to its hype.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:43 PM
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With “Pan,” you want to get more of a peek at this wild depravity the soulless woman is wreaking all over London. In “White People,” the subtle approach is much more effective. And you’re seeing all the spooky stuff through the eyes of an 11-year-old girl.

Plus, it’s another example of a young child rambling through desolate woods and hills far afield, while her parents and the servants stay at home not giving a damn where she is.
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  #58  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:26 AM
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I'm reading a 1954 book by Enid Blyton, one of the most prolific children's authors of the mid 1900s.
Twins, seven years old, are being sent unaccompanied on a 5 hour train trip.

"“I’ll tell the guard to come and have a look at you now and then,” [mother] said. “You’ll be quite all right, because you don’t have to change anywhere. Eat your sandwiches when you see a clock on some station pointing to half-past twelve.”
  #59  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:09 AM
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I'm reading a 1954 book by Enid Blyton, one of the most prolific children's authors of the mid 1900s.
Twins, seven years old, are being sent unaccompanied on a 5 hour train trip.

"Ill tell the guard to come and have a look at you now and then, [mother] said. Youll be quite all right, because you dont have to change anywhere. Eat your sandwiches when you see a clock on some station pointing to half-past twelve.
In the "real life, not fiction" section - a couple of years ago my daughter's school play was based around the story of a 9-year-old kid called Lennie Gwyther who rode to Sydney to see the opening of the Harbour Bridge in 1932. From 1000km away. By himself. It was a reward for having done all the plowing that season, when his dad was laid up with a broken leg.

People were tougher, back when. Though the fact that he got famous for it is an indication that, even for the 30s, that feat was pretty out there.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:01 AM
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Judging from movies, radio and from real-life accounts, hitchhiking was incredibly common in the 1970s and before - people could count on being able to travel by hitching and people passing by felt a social obligation to pick people up along the side of the road.
Still is common in much of Europe. What's incredible to me is how much it freaks out people from non-rural areas.

One of the times I picked someone up as I was going home, it was two teenaged girls attending a summer camp nearby. The blonde one had been there before and was used to local customs, her brunette friend was a newbie from Mallorca (where I definitely wouldn't want to be picked up by strangers). By the time I dropped them off exactly where they were going (which only took me out of the way by about ten minutes total, oh noes, and I didn't have to be anywhere at a specific time anyway), the blonde was grinning from ear to ear about having her predictions on the complete non-dire-ness of hitchhiking fulfilled and the brunette was oh-wowing for all that she was worth.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:09 AM
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If you really want a shock, going back less than a century gets you into amazing casual racism.

The internment of people Japanese descent during WWII seems like an obscure, hidden thing, but it was very obvious and visible at the time. I was surprised, upon watching the 1943 Batman serial to see tat it opens with a segment praising the US govenment's wise decision to round up all the Japs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4GIZACYCR8

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-e...es-of_b_111426



While researching a turn-of-the-century amusement park, I found that, contrary to my initial assessment, they actually had African Dodgers. there. If you don't know what the African Dodger is, have a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dodger

https://ameripics.wordpress.com/2016...frican-dodger/

I was appalled to find that they had "African Dodgers" set up at things like church bazaars, or that local newspaper praised young girls for their accuracy in pitching balls at the Dodgers' head. All of which is to say that throwing baseballs at the unprotected head of a black man was seen as not only perfectly natural, but actually praiseworthy.


There's a very slight justification for people not getting completely outraged -- but only a tiny bit. The balls weren't really baseballs -- they were smaller and lighter. But they were still hard balls pitched directly at someone's head. And apparently some people brought their own "real" baseballs. Or pitched rocks. There are records of severe injuries from this.

Eventually, the practice died out. Within a decade it was outlawed in Massachusetts. Even before that, carnivals started substituting something less lethal -- what we today call the Dunk Tank started out as a more humane replacement for the African Dodger. That it was originally only black people sitting on the seat of a Dunk Tank, taunting the players to throw baseballs at the target (in lieui of their head) is shown by early advertising for the tanks, which were called "chocolate drops".
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:28 AM
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In general, otherwise decent and intelligent white people uncritically believed that blacks were degenerates only kept from erupting into savagery by the constant vigilance of our brave, noble police.

Hopefully that's all that needs to be said or race alone would take up this entire thread.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:11 AM
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All of this is interesting stuff. However I did expect these different attitudes, I lived through a lot of them, mostly it seemed perfectly normal at the time since it was reinforced in entertainment and current events. But it is still uncomfortable to see how long the struggle continued, and so many issues no where near resolution yet. There different attitudes now that we'll see in the future.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:15 AM
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For me, all the racism talk sort of veers from the original topic of the post - I don't find racism (or sexism) in older works unexpected. Whereas the first time I heard about the total disregard for littering in older days, I was surprised.
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:26 AM
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Mad Men played with this idea, by having the characters do things that would have been normal at the time. For instance, the family goes on a picnic and then throws all the trash in the bushes (in a public park.) Or the children run into the living room playing "astronaut" with their mother's dry cleaning bags over their heads. She flips -- because they are messing with her dry cleaning. She isn't at all concerned with them having cling-film bags on their heads. Or the time a minor character's foot is damaged by a lawn mower. "Poor guy, he can't work in an advertising agency any more. Oh well."
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:50 AM
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OK, not quite on target here but something that was worth a laugh out of me when I read it.

Prentice Alvin, by Orson Scott Card (might have been the earlier Red Prophet but I'm not sure)

It's set in the first two decades of the 1800s. One of the older women characters wants to adopt a mixed race small boy. She and her husband were abolitionists and had rescued him when his mother died getting him away from being enslaved.

So far, so good.

Arguing against adopting him, her husband says something like, "Look at him, what about when he grows up? Is he going to want to vote?"

She replied, "Oh nonsense. He wouldn't try to vote anymore than I would!"

BOOM, baby. A book published in 1989 throwing a smackdown for the reader about how things have changed. Caught me right by surprised and made clear, to some extent, just what changes have occurred.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:12 AM
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Just the opposite: Under the Gaslight from 1867 was the first play to have someone tied to the railroad tracks. Only it's the hero who's tied, and the heroine who rescues him at the last moment. And the hero puts in a plug for woman's suffrage, too.

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Snorkey. Herequick ! (She runs and unfastens him. The locomotive lights glare on scene.) Victory! Saved! Hooray! (Laura leans exhausted against switch.) And these are the women who ain't to have a vote!
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Phillip K Dick's Man in the High Castle is filled with casual racism. I'd like to think he wrote it this way simply to show how bad things were in Japanese occupied California. I also wonder if anyone would be brave enough to do that now.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:21 PM
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For me, all the racism talk sort of veers from the original topic of the post - I don't find racism (or sexism) in older works unexpected. Whereas the first time I heard about the total disregard for littering in older days, I was surprised.
Honestly I really did find the casual racism in Robert Heinlein's Farnhams Freehold shocking.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:42 PM
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Honestly I really did find the casual racism in Robert Heinlein's Farnhams Freehold shocking.
Fair enough. Can't say I've read it. I think Stranger in a Strange Land is the only Heinlein I have read. I was in high school then, and didn't care for it. Remember almost nothing about it now.

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Old 06-11-2019, 01:48 PM
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In general, otherwise decent and intelligent white people uncritically believed that blacks were degenerates only kept from erupting into savagery by the constant vigilance of our brave, noble police.

Hopefully that's all that needs to be said or race alone would take up this entire thread.
The OP did say that they didn't want this thread to be about racism or sexism: " I'm specifically excluding things like racial and gender issues here"
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:32 PM
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I'm reading a 1954 book by Enid Blyton, one of the most prolific children's authors of the mid 1900s.
Twins, seven years old, are being sent unaccompanied on a 5 hour train trip.

"Ill tell the guard to come and have a look at you now and then, [mother] said. Youll be quite all right, because you dont have to change anywhere. Eat your sandwiches when you see a clock on some station pointing to half-past twelve.
I think my mum travelled about 400 miles by train by herself at the age of 10 once in the 50s, being picked up at the far end. It was apparently not out of the ordinary.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:39 PM
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A few years ago I decided to watch the movie Car Wash, released circa 1976, just to see what it was like. I never expected it to be any sort of great masterpiece of course, but it was somewhat amusing, and it was actually a pretty good insight into the culture and attitudes of 40+ years ago. One scene that was unexpected for me was when a male customer goes to pay for his car wash, starts flirting with the young woman working the cash register, and asks her out on a date. Now every woman I know in my age group (I'm 39) who's worked in the service industry has told me they find it extremely annoying when men try to hit on them while they're at work and would definitely not agree to go on a date with a random customer. Maybe if the guy was a regular who she's gotten to know over time, but certainly not someone she's never met before. But in the movie, the cashier acted flattered and excitedly said yes to his request for a date. Later on in the movie she's excitedly telling her coworkers that she has a date tonight. I genuinely found that surprising.
I don't think that is necessarily an accurate representation of reality. No doubt the writers were clueless men who had no idea how such conduct made women feel. It's the reason such attitudes and such ignorance is so ubiquitous. It dominated our media for decades. We've grown up watching these movies convincing us that girls loved it. They probably never did. Men are only now just starting to realize it. Look how many people think girls appreciate "cat calls" as compliments. I'm sure there are plenty of movies--written by men of such mindset--who wrote their female characters to appreciate a nice compliment. Your cashier example is just one of countless examples of unacceptable conduct that was never received the way it was depicted on the screen. Remember in Revenge of the Nerds, when he pretty much rapes the girl on the Moon Walk through deception, and she fell in love with him for it? Yea, there's no way a woman wrote that script...

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Old 06-11-2019, 02:58 PM
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In one 1930s cartoon Popeye, mistakenly believing that Swee'Pea has been naughty, prepares to administer discipline by picking up a stout piece of wood.
This early Dennis the Menace comic strip would be shocking today.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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Arguing against adopting him, her husband says something like, "Look at him, what about when he grows up? Is he going to want to vote?"

She replied, "Oh nonsense. He wouldn't try to vote anymore than I would!"
Nitpick - it's when she wants to send him to the new town school, and the school board shows up and strong-arms her into not doing so.

The book's actually got a lot of quite nuanced portrayals of different possible responses to institutionalised racism - good, bad and kinda-sorta-maybe-good. There's also the town drunk who "didn't much like Black folks, but couldn't bear to see any wild thing cooped up" and therefore becomes a staunch Underground Railway participant
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:17 PM
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https://www.straightdope.com/columns...hats-the-deal/ (1983)

Coincidentally mentioned in Favourite outdated columns

I just can't take a joke? I'm getting old? We're more self-rightious now? For whatever reason, the joke about killing obnoxious kids doesn't amuse me, yet I would be surprised if Cecil was actually trying to offend at the time.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:29 PM
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I think that Heinlein in Farnham's Freehold was trying to cast a light on real-world racism by reversing the roles, in order to make real people more sympathetic to the plight of black folks. He failed pretty spectacularly at it, but I think that's what he was trying to do.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:11 PM
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Remember in Revenge of the Nerds, when he pretty much rapes the girl on the Moon Walk through deception, and she fell in love with him for it? Yea, there's no way a woman wrote that script...
Which is a good segue into another one I thought of. Years ago I was reading an anthology of sci-fi/fantasy short stories that someone had given me, I think published in the 1970s. I don't remember the title of the story and I most likely gave the book to Goodwill by now so I can't go and check, but here's the basic plot. The two heros were in some sort of plane crash in some sort of pseudo Middle Eastern setting (or a romanticized Western version of the Middle East, really). They wander into a village, and the village elders, I guess as a show of friendship or hospitality or whatever, offers up a nubile young woman for them to have sex with. The twist was that she turned out to have some sort of weapon hidden in her elaborate hairdo, so even though she was naked she could pull out a weapon and attack them.

Just the idea of a culture where it's apparently the norm to show hospitality by offering strangers a young woman for their sexual pleasure reads more like some male nerd's fantasy than any sort of plausible society.

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This early Dennis the Menace comic strip would be shocking today.
When I saw Dennis the Menace without noticing the post you quoted I thought this was going to be about the time the cartoonist, Hank Ketchum, tried to add a black character to the strip. Except his black characters were all drawn like something out of a 19th century minstrel show, and he apparently couldn't understand why people found that offensive.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dennis-the-menace/

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Old 06-11-2019, 09:32 PM
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I don't think that is necessarily an accurate representation of reality. No doubt the writers were clueless men who had no idea how such conduct made women feel. It's the reason such attitudes and such ignorance is so ubiquitous. It dominated our media for decades. We've grown up watching these movies convincing us that girls loved it. They probably never did. Men are only now just starting to realize it. Look how many people think girls appreciate "cat calls" as compliments. I'm sure there are plenty of movies--written by men of such mindset--who wrote their female characters to appreciate a nice compliment. Your cashier example is just one of countless examples of unacceptable conduct that was never received the way it was depicted on the screen. Remember in Revenge of the Nerds, when he pretty much rapes the girl on the Moon Walk through deception, and she fell in love with him for it? Yea, there's no way a woman wrote that script...
Pretty much the only part I remember from Car Wash was Monas entrance scene.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fps14tiIMpg

Its only 20 seconds long, but for some reason its been imprinted on my brain for the past 40 years. Heaven knows why.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno;21692871.. Look how many people think girls appreciate "cat calls" as compliments [...
Yea, there's no way a woman wrote that script...
1) I have known women who appreciated cat calls.

2) I have known women who had rape fantasies (and I have read writing by others)

Last edited by Melbourne; 06-12-2019 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:59 PM
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In the TV movie adaptation of The Girl, the Gold Watch and Everything there's a scene where they get even with the female villain by throwing her naked into a van full of sailors. The next scene shows her walking onto a ship wearing a sailor's uniform. I doubt they'd do that now.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:19 PM
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1) I have known women who appreciated cat calls.

2) I have known women who had rape fantasies (and I have read writing by others)
I know of two girls who like to eat shit out of a cup. However, if I were writing a book or movie script and I wanted to best represent the emotions, attitudes, and desires of the average woman, I think I'd avoid giving her fantasies of rape or a positive reception toward sexual harassment. But that's just me.
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Old 06-12-2019, 01:56 PM
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I know of two girls who like to eat shit out of a cup. However, if I were writing a book or movie script and I wanted to best represent the emotions, attitudes, and desires of the average woman, I think I'd avoid giving her fantasies of rape or a positive reception toward sexual harassment. But that's just me.
Not just you... I think that's a pretty reasonable assessment.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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Which is a good segue into another one I thought of. Years ago I was reading an anthology of sci-fi/fantasy short stories that someone had given me, I think published in the 1970s. I don't remember the title of the story and I most likely gave the book to Goodwill by now so I can't go and check, but here's the basic plot. The two heros were in some sort of plane crash in some sort of pseudo Middle Eastern setting (or a romanticized Western version of the Middle East, really). They wander into a village, and the village elders, I guess as a show of friendship or hospitality or whatever, offers up a nubile young woman for them to have sex with. The twist was that she turned out to have some sort of weapon hidden in her elaborate hairdo, so even though she was naked she could pull out a weapon and attack them.

Just the idea of a culture where it's apparently the norm to show hospitality by offering strangers a young woman for their sexual pleasure reads more like some male nerd's fantasy than any sort of plausible society.
There actually have been societies like that. Slave women, particularly, were lent out in past societies but there are examples of "free" women being "loaned" to visiting men as a sign of hospitality, prostitues of one stripe or another being offered/available, and probably a lot of examples of foreign men misinterpreting situations and essentially raping women they thought were available.

As one example, Matthew Henson was an arctic explorer who had a "country wife" or concubine among the Inuit, who had a son by him and his only descendants are Inuit. I don't think there was any coercion in that case, but it can be hard to say at such a remove in time.

Really, this ties into things like prostitution and concubinage.

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1)2) I have known women who had rape fantasies (and I have read writing by others)
I am willing to bet that many women in to rape fantasy would not want to experience actual rape.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-12-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:06 PM
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For me, all the racism talk sort of veers from the original topic of the post - I don't find racism (or sexism) in older works unexpected. Whereas the first time I heard about the total disregard for littering in older days, I was surprised.
Right. Also there's so much of it and it's such a big topic that it could easily dominate the thread, when it's really the quirky little things that are more interesting.

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That's [card readers] a change in technology, though, not one of attitudes. I suppose it'd have been to Smith's credit if he had been able to predict electronic databases, but one can hardly hold it against him that he didn't. Most science fiction writers don't fare any better, and even the few who do, it's mostly just by fluke.
In the GURPS Lensman game supplement, they retconned that the lack of electronic computers was because of the Arisians were trying to guide the younger races to great mental feats. If electronic computers were available, people would use them instead of using their own brains and they'd never develop the psychic powers the Arisians wanted, so the Arisians made sure the transistor was never discovered.
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Old 06-12-2019, 02:12 PM
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Social change is very hard to predict. I remember reading a sci-fi book (I can't remember the title, but I'm pretty sure it was written in the 70s or late 60s) set a few centuries were drug use was as common as alcohol and free love was the norm, but only for heterosexuals. Homosexuals were explicitly mentioned as one of the groups that leaving Earth for extrasolar colonies.
Larry Niven has a story (written in the 60s or 70s, I think) where there was a long term expedition to Mars that was all or mostly male, and people were shocked that some of the crew members had resorted to homosexuality. What surprised me was not that there was disapproval of people being gay, which was still common when the book was written, but that people found the idea that dudes stuck in a tin can with just dudes might at least fool around together to be a complete surprise. As shortly after that as the 80s I would expect people talking about the mission to joke around about how the guys stuck in there would get friendly with each other, even if the actual fooling around would be a scandal.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:08 PM
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The Haight-Ashbury scene was destroyed by hard drugs by 1967. (The "Death of Hippie" parade took place in October.) Hard drugs spread though the rock world before 1970 and to their audiences by 1975. In the same way, hard drugs, cocaine primarily, became the drug of choice for partiers in the 1970s. That decade was also the decade for speed, with amphetamine abuse skyrocketing. Speed was abused by truck drivers to a frightening degree.

Remember the War of Drugs? Nixon started it in 1971. He wasn't just going after pot.

I'm glad you had good experiences. I'm not sure that you can say they were typical.
I don't think Nixon was going after the drugs in the larger scheme of things. The people who used them were his political enemies and they were the targets.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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Larry Niven has a story (written in the 60s or 70s, I think) where there was a long term expedition to Mars that was all or mostly male, and people were shocked that some of the crew members had resorted to homosexuality. What surprised me was not that there was disapproval of people being gay, which was still common when the book was written, but that people found the idea that dudes stuck in a tin can with just dudes might at least fool around together to be a complete surprise. As shortly after that as the 80s I would expect people talking about the mission to joke around about how the guys stuck in there would get friendly with each other, even if the actual fooling around would be a scandal.

Speaking of Martian sexytime, even if she is the last woman on the planet, the rule is still No Fat Chicks.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:38 PM
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Just the idea of a culture where it's apparently the norm to show hospitality by offering strangers a young woman for their sexual pleasure reads more like some male nerd's fantasy than any sort of plausible society.
I recall that Marco Polo's writings included at least one description of a society with something along these lines--pretty much any woman of the village, whether partnered or not, would happily exchange sex for things of value, and their male partners were just fine with it. I don't know whether his writings are considered completely reliable.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:43 PM
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Robert B. Parker basically wrote the same Spenser book 40 times over a 40 year period. Taken as a whole it's like one bizarre work of art with the characters and stories basically staying the same and a fun house mirror version of current events changing around them.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:58 PM
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In the "real life, not fiction" section - a couple of years ago my daughter's school play was based around the story of a 9-year-old kid called Lennie Gwyther who rode to Sydney to see the opening of the Harbour Bridge in 1932. From 1000km away. By himself. It was a reward for having done all the plowing that season, when his dad was laid up with a broken leg.

People were tougher, back when. Though the fact that he got famous for it is an indication that, even for the 30s, that feat was pretty out there.
When I was about six years old or so, my parents put me on a plane, by myself, to visit my grandmother in North Carolina. Mom handed me off to a stewardess - this is long enough ago that they were still called "stewardesses" - and she kept an eye on me during the flight. Brought me a set of wings, and took me up to the cockpit to meet the pilots. At the airport, an airline hostess met me at the gate and escorted me to my grandmother. This was in the early 70's; I can't imagine that happening today.


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In the TV movie adaptation of The Girl, the Gold Watch and Everything there's a scene where they get even with the female villain by throwing her naked into a van full of sailors. The next scene shows her walking onto a ship wearing a sailor's uniform. I doubt they'd do that now.
Good lord, I remember that TV movie. There was a scene where the hero stopped time - the power of the eponymous gold watch - and untied a woman's bikini top while she was playing beach volleyball. Sexual assault was just a funny little prank, then.

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I recall that Marco Polo's writings included at least one description of a society with something along these lines--pretty much any woman of the village, whether partnered or not, would happily exchange sex for things of value, and their male partners were just fine with it. I don't know whether his writings are considered completely reliable.
Sounds like the mutineers from the Bounty, who claimed that Tahitian girls preferred them to the native men, finding them more vigorous and satisfying lovers. Sure they did, buddy.
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:09 PM
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In the TV movie adaptation of The Girl, the Gold Watch and Everything there's a scene where they get even with the female villain by throwing her naked into a van full of sailors. The next scene shows her walking onto a ship wearing a sailor's uniform. I doubt they'd do that now.
That's from the book.

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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Larry Niven has a story (written in the 60s or 70s, I think) where there was a long term expedition to Mars that was all or mostly male, and people were shocked that some of the crew members had resorted to homosexuality. What surprised me was not that there was disapproval of people being gay, which was still common when the book was written, but that people found the idea that dudes stuck in a tin can with just dudes might at least fool around together to be a complete surprise. As shortly after that as the 80s I would expect people talking about the mission to joke around about how the guys stuck in there would get friendly with each other, even if the actual fooling around would be a scandal.
This is "How the Heroes Die" https://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2007...oubles-of.html

---------------------------

In Gregory McDonald's Flynn , from the late 1970s, Inspector Flynn is looking into a killing - he sends his 15-year old twin sons to investigate a couple of groups that might be involved. One spends the time following a homeless preacher, while the other gets involved in a hippie sex ring. When they get home it's just a dose of penicillin for one of them and back to parochial school for both.
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:26 PM
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took me up to the cockpit to meet the pilots

That reminds me--would a movie use the ''gladiator movies" joke today?
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:32 PM
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When I was about six years old or so, my parents put me on a plane, by myself, to visit my grandmother in North Carolina. Mom handed me off to a stewardess - this is long enough ago that they were still called "stewardesses" - and she kept an eye on me during the flight. Brought me a set of wings, and took me up to the cockpit to meet the pilots. At the airport, an airline hostess met me at the gate and escorted me to my grandmother. This was in the early 70's; I can't imagine that happening today. . . .
It's been more than a decade, but I'm pretty sure that unaccompanied minors can still fly -

Googling - - Delta has a program for 5 to 14. So does United.

Looks like most airlines will accept unaccompanied minors, but that the details vary. The younger the child (and no children under 5), the more likely they can only fly on a nonstop flight.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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I know of two girls who like to eat shit out of a cup. However, if I were writing a book or movie script and I wanted to best represent the emotions, attitudes, and desires of the average woman, I think I'd avoid giving her fantasies of rape or a positive reception toward sexual harassment. But that's just me.
On the other hand, if you wanted to understand why women have rape fantasies, you'd ask the women who have rape fantasies, rather than going with your own opinion. And if you wanted to sell books to women, you'd sell books that women wanted to buy, rather than books that represented the average woman.

Look: I don't have much contact with women, as a group, anymore. I have no particular idea what women want now. I dropped in to respond to the question of how, 50 years ago, authors had got the idea that women liked cat calls. My response? They got that idea because women told them so.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:28 PM
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It's been more than a decade, but I'm pretty sure that unaccompanied minors can still fly -

Googling - - Delta has a program for 5 to 14. So does United.

Looks like most airlines will accept unaccompanied minors, but that the details vary. The younger the child (and no children under 5), the more likely they can only fly on a nonstop flight.
Huh. Would not have expected that. I wonder how many parents avail themselves of such a service?

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That reminds me--would a movie use the ''gladiator movies" joke today?
Or the "I speak jive" joke, or the gag where the singing nun knocks the IV out of the sick little girl's arm, and she goes into a seizure. Of course, those jokes were supposed to be transgressive at the time, as well. The sight gag with the queue of people lined up, with weapons, to "slap some sense" into the woman having hysterics, though, was I think solely about subverting a trope.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Slow Moving Vehicle View Post
When I was about six years old or so, my parents put me on a plane, by myself, to visit my grandmother in North Carolina. Mom handed me off to a stewardess - this is long enough ago that they were still called "stewardesses" - and she kept an eye on me during the flight. Brought me a set of wings, and took me up to the cockpit to meet the pilots. At the airport, an airline hostess met me at the gate and escorted me to my grandmother. This was in the early 70's; I can't imagine that happening today...
I had the exact same experience in the mid 90s when I was 10 years old and flew to Hawai'i by myself to meet my older brother and his new wife. I even had a layover at LAX that I spend in an airline daycare type room with other unaccompanied minors.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:48 PM
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It's been more than a decade, but I'm pretty sure that unaccompanied minors can still fly

Coincidentally, it has been more than a decade since this movie.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Larry Niven has a story (written in the 60s or 70s, I think) where there was a long term expedition to Mars that was all or mostly male, and people were shocked that some of the crew members had resorted to homosexuality. What surprised me was not that there was disapproval of people being gay, which was still common when the book was written, but that people found the idea that dudes stuck in a tin can with just dudes might at least fool around together to be a complete surprise. As shortly after that as the 80s I would expect people talking about the mission to joke around about how the guys stuck in there would get friendly with each other, even if the actual fooling around would be a scandal.
Robert Silverberg wrote a story in the 50s, "Eve and the 23 Adams," where every spaceship had a "crew girl" -- basically, a ship's prostitute -- because if men went without sex they grew tense and make mistakes.

Bad enough, but in the story, the girl isn't a hooker, but rather the fiancee of the son of the narrator, who signed on without knowing what the job actually was. She refuses (after takeoff, of course), so they end up drugging her and raping her in her sleep so she doesn't know what happens. She meets up with her fiance thinking that nothing has happened, though the narrator, at least shows some remorse by drinking himself in a stupor the entire flight.

This was during Silverberg's hack phase, before he became a major writer. I notice it hasn't been reprinted in the US since 1969, so I would think he had second thoughts.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:21 PM
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Back on to the 'small but unexpected differences' line - I'm just reading Prince Caspian this week with my son, and I'm amused to note that among the differences between the Good Dwarf (Trumpkin) who stays loyal to Caspian and the Bad Dwarf (Nikabrik) who ultimately turns evil and throws in his lot with werewolves and witches is that ... Nikabrik is Not A Smoker.

Clearly a wrong 'un!
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