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Old 06-10-2019, 01:53 PM
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When They See Us, "Central Park Five" miniseries


Anyone check out When They See Us on Netflix? It's a miniseries by Ava DuVernay, backed by Oprah Winfrey and Robert DiNiro (among others)

Here's a review. No spoilers. But, can there be spoilers if we know how the trials turned out?

The five men who were convicted (who later had their convictions overturned and won a lawsuit against NYC) worked with DuVernay on the series. Actualy it was Raymond Santana who reached out to DuVernay on Twitter to give her the idea for making it!

The miniseries is presented from the point of view of the 5 men, first when the crime happens, then their treatment by the police, then their trials, then their time in jail and then their time after getting out. Four of the 5 were in juvenile detention and the 5th, Korey Wise, was in adult prison. There is also some focus on their families at home.

I felt that since the men were involved in the production, the stories told must have been by-in-large true to fact (from their perspectives).

The story absolutely maintains the boys' innocence and mistreatment. And, even though it's a small factor in the overall story, it highlights what an absolute wretched person Donald Trump is.

I think it's an important story to tell. You should check it out.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:11 AM
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I was a little too young to really be aware of what happened with this (born in '81) but I watched this and HOLY. SHIT.

My girlfriend was in tears through half the series. They really fucked these kids over badly. Their 41 million in damages doesn't even begin to repay them for what they went through with this shit.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:42 AM
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And Trump took out a full page newspaper ad demanding their deaths. He still hasn’t admitted being wrong about that.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:06 AM
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And Trump took out a full page newspaper ad demanding their deaths. He still hasnt admitted being wrong about that.
He's not really one to be prone to admitting any fault about anything ever.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:34 AM
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That case was simply fucked up. I remember people saying the victim was jogging in the park, she was a known druggie who was buying drugs. And she had an abusive boyfriend who was never investigate.

Always blame the (female) victim.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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This case was one of the first "True Crime" cases I followed...I would have been about 12 or 13. I remember being horrified, but it kind of slipped my mind until I heard the five were released. What an intense and enraging movie! I could not believe the miscarriage of justice, and the fact that the DA continues to try and push that the boys were guilty is just astounding. She deserves every repercussion she can get from this case (also the Weinstein one she was a part of).
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:00 PM
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Earlier today I read an op-ed by Fairstein. Now I tend to believe the spirit of the docu-drama but also realize that there was probably some dramatic license taken as well. However, according to Fairstein, it was all lies. She indicates that some of the facts that she is refuting can be proved from the court docs but considering how much bullshit seemed to have been going on from all parties involved with the prosecution, I'm not sure that would even constitute "proof" but I figure it's worth throwing it out there for "both sides of the argument" purposes.

Still, the whole things is absolutely sickening and considering the climate in NYC at the time, I have no trouble believing that the Netflix series is pretty close to the truth.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/netflix...ve-11560207823
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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Unfortunately that article is behind a paywall.

I actually didn't think they painted Fairstein in the worst of light. The whole thing really could have been blamed on her. Seems that they took her down the track of "dammit I really want justice for this woman! I'm tired of violence against women!" and most of the damage was done by the police by the time the case got to her.

Of course, she could have done more due diligence to make sure the cops had everything right, and not hand-waved away some advice to do so.

But I feel at least, in this particular depiction of Fairstein (and granted, I've not seen other depictions) she wasn't COMPLETELY vilified. Maybe...shown to be more incompetent than she likes?

I do need to read more stuff from the other side.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:22 PM
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That case was simply fucked up. I remember people saying the victim was jogging in the park, she was a known druggie who was buying drugs. And she had an abusive boyfriend who was never investigate.

Always blame the (female) victim.
I don't remember the actual events, but based on what is portrayed in the series this statement seems to be totally out of left field. It's almost the exact opposite of both what was accused at trial or what is said to have happened. Perhaps you're thinking of something else?
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:28 PM
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Unfortunately that article is behind a paywall.

I actually didn't think they painted Fairstein in the worst of light. The whole thing really could have been blamed on her. Seems that they took her down the track of "dammit I really want justice for this woman! I'm tired of violence against women!" and most of the damage was done by the police by the time the case got to her.

Of course, she could have done more due diligence to make sure the cops had everything right, and not hand-waved away some advice to do so.

But I feel at least, in this particular depiction of Fairstein (and granted, I've not seen other depictions) she wasn't COMPLETELY vilified. Maybe...shown to be more incompetent than she likes?

I do need to read more stuff from the other side.
This doesn't really wash. Fairstein was portrayed as the one who pushed the cops to find the killers, that it was these boys and they had better make sure they come back with something. She interviewed the boys and was responsible for there being a list of names which subsequently got rounded up.

There's absolutely no ambiguity there I think. Sure the cops were all to happy to see it through, but according to the show she laid down the marching orders and she'd made up her mind about happened long before any testimony was coerced or any evidence was uncovered. She's pretty much the big bad from start to finish.
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:36 PM
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And Trump took out a full page newspaper ad demanding their deaths. He still hasnt admitted being wrong about that.
It wasn't just one ad, it was a full-page ad in all four of the city's major newspapers. According to the Wikipedia account, "lawyers for the five defendants said that Trump's advertisement had inflamed public opinion" and "poisoned the minds of many people who lived in New York City" making it difficult or impossible for the boys to get a fair trial. This was in 1989, and years later, in 2014, when the city announced the monetary settlement, Trump was at it again, writing an opinion piece in the New York Daily News calling the settlement "a disgrace" and claiming that the boys were likely guilty.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:32 PM
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This doesn't really wash. Fairstein was portrayed as the one who pushed the cops to find the killers, that it was these boys and they had better make sure they come back with something. She interviewed the boys and was responsible for there being a list of names which subsequently got rounded up.

There's absolutely no ambiguity there I think. Sure the cops were all to happy to see it through, but according to the show she laid down the marching orders and she'd made up her mind about happened long before any testimony was coerced or any evidence was uncovered. She's pretty much the big bad from start to finish.
She was but I guess they didn't make her comically villainous. Maybe that's just Ava's classy style I'm picking up on.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:38 PM
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That case was simply fucked up. I remember people saying the victim was jogging in the park, she was a known druggie who was buying drugs. And she had an abusive boyfriend who was never investigate.

Always blame the (female) victim.

But we know it wasn't the boyfriend - DNA evidence points to Matias Reyes, and he has confessed. I get that people say f***** up things, but what does the boyfriend have to do with it?
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:29 PM
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She was but I guess they didn't make her comically villainous. Maybe that's just Ava's classy style I'm picking up on.
Guess we read it differently. She was basically the personification of big-city soft racism. Any further and she'd have had to start ironing her hood.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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Guess we read it differently. She was basically the personification of big-city soft racism. Any further and she'd have had to start ironing her hood.
It's behind a paywall, but Fairstein has written an op-ed (upon edit, I see that Deser2 has referenced that and linked to it - Kudos, Deser2) about the case ... it's difficult to judge second-hand since I don't have a WSJ subscription, but I gather from peoples' reaction to the op-ed that it doubles down on the idea that coerced confessions from 14-16 year olds are somehow reliable? Anyone know of a good way to get access to this op-ed without paying for the WSJ?
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:45 PM
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This being the Internet where information flows freely, we can at least view articles about her article

Vulture

Esquire

CNN

Here's a quote from the op-ed, as printed in the Esquire article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda Fairstein
Mr. Reyes’s confession, DNA match and claim that he acted alone required that the rape charges against the five be vacated. I agreed with that decision, and still do. But the other charges, for crimes against other victims, should not have been vacated. Nothing Mr. Reyes said exonerated these five of those attacks. And there was certainly more than enough evidence to support those convictions of first-degree assault, robbery, riot and other charges.
Yeah, she's delusional. Well, at least according to the way the miniseries portrayed events.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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This being the Internet where information flows freely, we can at least view articles about her article

Vulture

Esquire

CNN

Here's a quote from the op-ed, as printed in the Esquire article:



Yeah, she's delusional. Well, at least according to the way the miniseries portrayed events.
As someone who was actually there and participated in events, she may have a better understanding of them then people who see a fictionalized version of those events told from only one perspective.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:26 PM
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As someone who was actually there and participated in events, she may have a better understanding of them then people who see a fictionalized version of those events told from only one perspective.
Or she's got a huge financial stake in making herself look good and has a track record of lying.

The TV show may be fictionalized, but it's also fact checked and most of the information is in the public record. If an objective source can point out any false portrayals in the show we can have that discussion.
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:07 AM
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Or she's got a huge financial stake in making herself look good and has a track record of lying.

The TV show may be fictionalized, but it's also fact checked and most of the information is in the public record. If an objective source can point out any false portrayals in the show we can have that discussion.
Those involved with the show also have a huge financial stake in making themselves look good and her look bad. We should be appropriately skeptical of both sides.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:24 PM
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The last two Netflix crime documentaries I watched wound up afterwards having such massive omissions to make a certain side look good it wouldn't surprise me if this has the same thing.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:40 PM
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I haven't seen the new doc, and I could be misrembering, but. . .

Despite the miscarriage of justice in the charge of "The Central Park Jogger," I thought that these five--as well as a number of others not accused of the CPJ assault--had participated in . . . "assaulting" other people in the park that night (the 'wilding' thing). Am I mistaken on that?

If that's the case--and, again, I haven't seen it--if they're showing how the prosecutors railroaded them on the CPJ case, that's one thing. But if they're trying to make them out to be choirboys, that would seem a little off.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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They did show the large group of teens in the park, and some other assaults. I don't think they showed any of the 5 participating in any of the assaults but they did show them being present. The series promoted that the one boy's injuries were the result of running from the police.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:26 PM
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Or she's got a huge financial stake in making herself look good and has a track record of lying.

The TV show may be fictionalized, but it's also fact checked and most of the information is in the public record. If an objective source can point out any false portrayals in the show we can have that discussion.
I guess I would say that, despite her screams to the contrary, she did not launch a lawsuit for libel, even though she has certainly lost money with this movie - that to me is quite telling.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:39 PM
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Why has she lost money? Decent people might shun her but so what. Libel suits take time to file anyway.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:40 PM
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I guess I would say that, despite her screams to the contrary, she did not launch a lawsuit for libel, even though she has certainly lost money with this movie - that to me is quite telling.
I missed the edit window, I have to remember not to try and make too much sense when I have a headache.

I guess I would say that, despite her screaming about misrepresentation and lies, she did not launch a lawsuit for libel, even though she has certainly lost money with this movie - that to me is quite telling

Last edited by Poysyn; 06-14-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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Why has she lost money? Decent people might shun her but so what. Libel suits take time to file anyway.
Her publisher has dropped her, and so has her management company. Since her stint as a public prosecutor, she's made a career as a crime fiction author.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:24 PM
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I haven't seen the new doc, and I could be misrembering, but. . .

Despite the miscarriage of justice in the charge of "The Central Park Jogger," I thought that these five--as well as a number of others not accused of the CPJ assault--had participated in . . . "assaulting" other people in the park that night (the 'wilding' thing). Am I mistaken on that?

If that's the case--and, again, I haven't seen it--if they're showing how the prosecutors railroaded them on the CPJ case, that's one thing. But if they're trying to make them out to be choirboys, that would seem a little off.
They were convicted of other assaults but, as in the case of the rape, there was no evidence against them other than their "confessions." None of the victims identified any of the defendants. These convictions were vacated at the same time as the rape convictions for the same reasons.

There is a good article at https://www.thenation.com/article/li...ral-park-five/ with a link to the 58-page motion to vacate the convictions.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:49 PM
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I should have added that the motion does contain the statement that:

Quote:
In sum, there was no significant evidence at trial establishing the defendants' involvement in the other crimes of which they stand convicted that would not have been substantially and fatally weakened by the newly discovered evidence in this matter. In the original investigation, a number of individuals identified one or more of the defendants Richardson, McCray, Santana, and Salaam in connection with the attack on John Loughlin, and statements also placed Wise at the scene of earlier incidents. In interviews in 2002, both Richardson and Santana candidly acknowledged involvement in criminal incidents that occurred on April 19, while steadfastly asserting their innocence of rape. But none of this additional evidence was before the trial juries. Accordingly, it cannot be considered in evaluating the newly discovered evidence claim.
So, although they shouldn't have been convicted at the time, at least two were guilty of some crimes.
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