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  #601  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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Her whole point was not to write them ALL off as pond scum.
I know, but that point was lost (obviously) and would have been lost in spite of any disclaimers. Using the word was a mistake, but she was hated before she used it. It was a convenient tag to attach to her. After all, people believed she was capable of running a child sex ring in a pizza restaurant. <shrug> One word wouldn't have made any difference.
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  #602  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:04 PM
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Yeah.

The weird thing is that she was hated previously in the '90s, but became really admired while she was Sec'y of State. Too bad she couldn't hold on to that mojo.
  #603  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:14 AM
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In the year 2040, 16% of the populace will have 84% of the Senate representing them, 84% of the populace will be represented by 16 people.

That's broken. Period. Full stop.
But this is what was originally intended in your constitution. The US Senate represents the states, not the populace.
  #604  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:41 AM
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The ratio of the populations of the largest and smallest states in 1789 was nowhere near what it has now become.
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Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-12-2019 at 11:42 AM.
  #605  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:46 AM
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And government at all levels, including the electorate, was in the hands of the "right" people: land-owning white men. We have a more evolved understanding of the nature and importance of democracy now, though.

Also, please note that the discussion is about what system we should have, not what we do have. We already know that part, thank you.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 06-12-2019 at 11:47 AM.
  #606  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:37 PM
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But this is what was originally intended in your constitution. The US Senate represents the states, not the populace.
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
The ratio of the populations of the largest and smallest states in 1789 was nowhere near what it has now become.
Agreed. I'll add that those ratios were also never envisioned by the framers of the constitution.
  #607  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:47 PM
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Agreed. I'll add that those ratios were also never envisioned by the framers of the constitution.
In 1790, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_Census

Penn=110,788
Dela=11,783

So, a Senator was worth ten times in Delaware than Penn.

Not as big of a gap as today (60 or so times CA- Wyo), but they were well aware of this issue, and it was considered a feature, not a bug. They wanted it that way, at least the small states.
  #608  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:48 PM
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Then I concede the point.
  #609  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:54 PM
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In 1790, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_Census

Penn=110,788
Dela=11,783

So, a Senator was worth ten times in Delaware than Penn.

Not as big of a gap as today (60 or so times CA- Wyo), but they were well aware of this issue, and it was considered a feature, not a bug. They wanted it that way, at least the small states.
So? They were wrong. About this. About slaves. About a lot of things. Hell, the first thing they did was amend the fucker 10 times.

Just because their 4-page compromise draft government which had to be bickered and agreed-upon by 9 18th-century agrarian states has this as their principle, doesn't make this imbalance any less unstable for our 21st-century post-industrial hyperpower.

Last edited by JohnT; 06-12-2019 at 06:57 PM.
  #610  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:55 PM
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So? They were wrong. About this. About slaves. About a lot of things. Hell, the first thing they did was amend the fucker 10 times.

That was part of the compromise.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:00 PM
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Exactly. The damn thing is too rickety for today's world and is growing more imbalanced by the day.
  #612  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:30 PM
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Then I concede the point.

Conceded too easily! Huge difference between 10-to-1 and 60-to-IMO. What percentage of the Senate did the 16% of the population in the smallest states control then?
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Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-12-2019 at 09:31 PM.
  #613  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:10 PM
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Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".
  #614  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".

WTF? I know for some professions, one has to re-qualify after a certain number of years to ensure you are up-to-date and, of course, still competent. Is that the case with lawyers? There is no way someone who believes such nonsense is a competent lawyer.
  #615  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:38 AM
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To quote Joyce Vance (who was one of the people testifying yesterday):
Quote:
This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
  #616  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:51 AM
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Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.
More and more becoming my favourite (well at least most confounding) power couple.
  #617  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:27 AM
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To quote Joyce Vance (who was one of the people testifying yesterday):
Quote:
This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
That's the plan.
I fully expect Trump to refuse to accept the results of the next election, with tweets of "Voter Fraud" and "Fake News", lawsuits and Executive Privilege. "I have proof on this paper that the results are fraudulent! Reports! Confessions! No, you can't see it...Executive Privilege! It's from the DOJ!"
Whether anyone will do anything about it...
  #618  
Old 06-13-2019, 04:52 AM
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More and more becoming my favourite (well at least most confounding) power couple.

It's kind of amazing that Trump hasn't fired Kellyann over this. I guess he is really that grateful to her for helping him engineer the 2016 upset? Or more likely (since he doesn't have a loyal bone in his body), he wants to keep her around to help him win reelection before jettisoning her.
  #619  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:12 AM
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That's the plan. I fully expect Trump to refuse to accept the results of the next election, with tweets of "Voter Fraud" and "Fake News", lawsuits and Executive Privilege. "I have proof on this paper that the results are fraudulent! Reports! Confessions! No, you can't see it...Executive Privilege! It's from the DOJ!"
If only it were just the President and tweets - except that it won't be just the President protesting with a bunch of tweets. It will be the entire Republican party, which has bought into authoritarianism just as much as Trump has. With right wing radio, right wing TV, and right wing social media, they have created a right wing ecosystem of information that peddles the notion that white christians (or whites and/or christians) are victims of an illegitimate political and social coup from foreigners and the Godless, soulless, elitist left. Over the summer of 2020 they will begin peddling conspiracy theories about how it's the Democrats are trying to steal their country and their democracy - whatever that may mean - away from them - it is they who are the real victims, and that extreme measures must be implemented to safeguard it.

That is why I don't think it's enough for Biden or any Democrat to simply win by two or three states with a 10,000 votes separating the two. It's not just Trump; it's the entire Republican party that will be tempted to coordinate anti-democratic efforts. If the elections are close, they will try to claim fraud and then sue in federal court, tying up the election for months, trying to sow the seeds of political violence among their supporters and confusion and doubts among the more impressionable voters.

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Whether anyone will do anything about it...
If there's good news, I suspect that they might be underestimating how well that would be received by a majority of Americans. The bad news is, the right wing may simply not care what the rest of America thinks. Even worse, depending on how far they go and what tactics they resort to, some right wing republicans might assume that they're in as much political and legal jeopardy as Trump is and view a right wing takeover as necessary to ensure their freedom. It's an increasingly precarious situation.
  #620  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".
Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
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Last edited by ThelmaLou; 06-13-2019 at 05:15 AM.
  #621  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
....."This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever." -- Joyce Vance
It's the end of the Constitutional concept of separation of powers for sure. To deny congress the power of oversight is to act in complete contravention of the Constitution's core principles.

Democracy will probably continue to exist in one form or another, and for white Americans who have job security, things might seem almost..."normal." It's just that people will be suspicious of election results and doubt the legitimacy of the government, which isn't a problem for a party that seeks power for the sake of having it, but more problematic for political parties that seek legitimacy and consent to govern.
  #622  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:28 AM
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Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
According to the recent Wolff book (which he discusses on YouTube), Kellyanne agrees with her husband about Trump!! Supposedly this is well known to friends of the couple.

(If true, how do we explain her continued employment? She's a mole, trying to track or reduce the damage?)

Last edited by septimus; 06-13-2019 at 07:28 AM.
  #623  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
To George? Muffled, ideally.
  #624  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It's the end of the Constitutional concept of separation of powers for sure. To deny congress the power of oversight is to act in complete contravention of the Constitution's core principles.
To paraphrase the Religious Right: The term separation of powers doesn't appear in the text of the constitution, even once.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 06-13-2019 at 01:06 PM.
  #625  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:07 PM
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According to the recent Wolff book (which he discusses on YouTube), Kellyanne agrees with her husband about Trump!! Supposedly this is well known to friends of the couple.

(If true, how do we explain her continued employment? She's a mole, trying to track or reduce the damage?)
If she's a mole (or trying to reduce the damage), she's really bad at it.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 06-13-2019 at 01:08 PM.
  #626  
Old Yesterday, 07:10 AM
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...eaching-trump/

Quote:
Pelosi has outlined an agenda of nine signature bills. Democrats have approved six of them. And Pelosiís agenda, unlike impeachment, is popular with the public; it unites congressional Democrats and to some extent divides congressional Republicans. And these bills, as opposed to impeaching Trump, align well with what appears to be Pelosiís broader strategy: to force GOP incumbents to vote against popular legislation in advance of the 2020 elections, protect Democrats in closely divided districts from tough votes, and keep the Democrats talking about and doing things that the public likes.
This is pretty much what my concern has been with impeachment, and why I think Pelosi's approach is the right one. The politics and the agenda are what matter more than impeaching Trump. Absent of any evidence showing widespread support for impeachment, it's really up to voters to impeach Trump now. Democrats have to make the case that their ideas are better for ordinary people, and that they are better at actually governing the country than Republicans. Jumping right into impeachment blows it all up.
  #627  
Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM
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If she's a mole (or trying to reduce the damage), she's really bad at it.
Scary thought of the day - what if she's really good at it?
  #628  
Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
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Democrats should use this clip of McConnell.
  #629  
Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM
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Asahi, agreed.

The impeachment debate played out pretty intensely last night on Maher, BTW.
  #630  
Old Today, 03:29 PM
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Even if Chump cannot be successfully impeached, highlighting his unethical and criminal activity could spur a heavier Democratic turnout in 2020. I just hope the Dem candidates don't waste all their time shouting what everyone already knows, that Chump is bad.
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