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  #51  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:17 PM
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My California driver's license is up for renewal in a few months. I'm really on the fence about this. On one hand, if I don't get a RealID license, I can renew it online and don't have to go to the DMV, but then I have to carry my passport every time I fly. But if I do get a RealID license, I have to go down to the DMV, which is pretty unpleasant but I don't know if it's unpleasant enough to outweigh years of traveling with a passport. My passport also expires in about a year; maybe I'll just get a passport card when I renew my passport as a compromise.
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:21 PM
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I got the star on my drivers license when I moved to Florida. Or, rather, two months later when I had built up a few utility bills.

I haven't used my DL as ID at an airport since I got a Passport.
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  #53  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by naita
I just don't do things by regular mail, and utilities are in my wife's name ...
*grumbles about backwards, analog countries*
A utility in your wife's name is fine as long as you have a marriage license.
  #54  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:17 PM
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People should have a right to travel on an airplane the same way they have a right to travel by walking. It should be no more inconvenient in terms of proving your right to travel.
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  #55  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
It seems to me, that the documents that are most difficult to obtain, are the documents proving identity--birth certificate, marriage certificate, etc. These documents have always been required for federal-level identification, such as the passport book and the passport card. The federal government can and should require that level of verification for any ID that it might accept in the course of business.
If someone doesn't want to use their state issued ID card or driver's license to interact with the federal government, then the whole thing is a moot point. If they do want to identify themselves to the federal government, then they either need to get a federal level form of identification, or a state ID that complies with RealID standards. Either way, they're going to have to dig out birth certificates and marriage certificates, etc.
Describing the RealID process as minimally inconvenient, I'm talking about the additional paperwork like proof of address (your earlier example not withstanding). The identity paperwork would be required, regardless. So the fact that finding that paperwork is a terrible burden to some people isn't really relevant. It would be difficult regardless.
Did you even read my reply to you? I'm complaining about the proof of address and the SSN, not the proof of identity. And that's what was hard for my mom, too.
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
A utility in your wife's name is fine as long as you have a marriage license.
are you out of your mind? Who the hell keeps a marriage license around? I've never had a physical copy of that. I signed it at the wedding, gave it to the officiant (who presumably filled it with the town) and went off on my honey moon. That's the last time i touched it.
  #56  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:36 PM
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And what if you live with roommates to whom you are not legally married? Lots of people do that, you know.
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Old 05-25-2019, 01:55 PM
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So now you need a special paper to board an airplane? Hmm. Guess I won't be getting on an airplane anymore. Do you need that special paper to buy weed? If not, maybe I'll just change my method of flying.
  #58  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:08 PM
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A utility in your wife's name is fine as long as you have a marriage license.
Maybe in your state- not mine.
  #59  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:21 PM
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And what if you live with roommates to whom you are not legally married? Lots of people do that, you know.
Look man, I'm not saying that a utility bill should be the end all and be all of address confirmation. Yes, there should be options available for people who don't have bills. I'm not sure what options are available (certainly, some methods must be available). I could think of several common sense ways to verify it. Hell, they could simply mail you the license to your stated address instead of giving it to you at the office. That would verify you can receive mail at, and are affiliated in some way with that address. All I'm saying is that it is not absurd for the state to require an address on a driver's license, and it is not unreasonable for the federal government to mandate that the information be verified.
  #60  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:24 PM
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And what if you live with roommates to whom you are not legally married? Lots of people do that, you know.
Then you use your bank statement. Lots of people use banks, you know.
  #61  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:27 PM
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Just heard from my boss that TSA will require driver's licenses to be REAL ID complaint to fly in 2020. The identifying mark will be a star on the top right of the ID.

Hmmm...remember the last time a star was used to identify people???

Edit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzanne.../#72cfa2ec7e92
I wonder if lingyi knows someone is putting his name on stupid posts.

Last edited by Ace309; 05-25-2019 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Changed text
  #62  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:42 PM
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Maybe in your state- not mine.
Doreen, New York will accept the following documents as proof of residence. You need to present two of them.

(1) Current Driver's license or ID card. (Seems simple enough)
(2) Certificate of Residency. (That's just a form that the parent signs swearing that the applicant lives at the stated address. That's pretty simple.)
(3) Postmarked mail. (That means that all you have to do is mail something to yourself, and bring it to the DMV once it arrives in your mail box. I don't think it can get simpler than that)

I'm not seeing the major inconvenience or impossibilities here.
  #63  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:45 PM
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Security Theater.

Pretending to do something, at the inconvenience of the many.

The time before I renewed my license I had to show a birth certificate. I copied my old license (note!), sent that into the suitable state, got a birth certificate. Used that to get a new license.

No verification by anybody that I was the actual person connected to the license or birth certificate.

The last renewal I needed proof of SSN or some such. Trivially generated and could have been faked by a 5th grader.

Yeah, that'll work.

The effect of all this on the safety of fliers? Zip.
  #64  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:46 PM
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And what if you live with roommates to whom you are not legally married? Lots of people do that, you know.
If you tell me what state you are in, I will look up their requirements and tell you exactly what the person can do if he/she lives with roommates and doesn't have any bills. I'm willing to bet the solution is as simple as the ones in New York. It's a Federal Act, so I'd expect the rules to be similar across all states. I think you are all making this simple requirement out to be some impossible and unreasonable process.
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:49 PM
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The effect of all this on the safety of fliers? Zip.
Perhaps. But it isn't just about flying. This isn't a TSA requirement. It's a Federal Government requirement. If you want the feds to accept your ID as valid, it has to conform to their standards. The TSA just happens to be the one agency that most people will interact with.
  #66  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Doreen, New York will accept the following documents as proof of residence. You need to present two of them.

(1) Current Driver's license or ID card. (Seems simple enough)
(2) Certificate of Residency. (That's just a form that the parent signs swearing that the applicant lives at the stated address. That's pretty simple.)
(3) Postmarked mail. (That means that all you have to do is mail something to yourself, and bring it to the DMV once it arrives in your mail box. I don't think it can get simpler than that)

I'm not seeing the major inconvenience or impossibilities here.
For the exhaustive list, go here:

https://process.dmv.ny.gov/documentg...Residence.cfm# (Click the "See More Documents" link)

Or view the list on the New York form ID-44: https://dmv.ny.gov/files/id44pdf

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 05-25-2019 at 02:52 PM.
  #67  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal
are you out of your mind? Who the hell keeps a marriage license around?
Just lying around? I doubt anyone. Stored somewhere with other legal documents, birth certificates, divorce decrees, deeds, titles, wills, etc? I bet most responsible adults do that. Even if it's not most, it certainly isn't so rare as to say someone is out of his mind for maintaining his marriage certificate along with his other important legal documents.

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I've never had a physical copy of that. I signed it at the wedding, gave it to the officiant (who presumably filled it with the town) and went off on my honey moon. That's the last time i touched it.
Did anyone change their name as a result of the marriage? What document was used to effect that change?
  #68  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Doreen, New York will accept the following documents as proof of residence. You need to present two of them.

(1) Current Driver's license or ID card. (Seems simple enough)
(2) Certificate of Residency. (That's just a form that the parent signs swearing that the applicant lives at the stated address. That's pretty simple.)
(3) Postmarked mail. (That means that all you have to do is mail something to yourself, and bring it to the DMV once it arrives in your mail box. I don't think it can get simpler than that)

I'm not seeing the major inconvenience or impossibilities here.
That certification form and the postmarked mail ( that you can mail to yourself) are fairly new additions and probably a result of the need to verify residence to issue a Real ID license. I notice the revision dates on the forms are 6/18 and 1/19.

Last edited by doreen; 05-25-2019 at 03:17 PM.
  #69  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:36 PM
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That certification form and the postmarked mail ( that you can mail to yourself) are fairly new additions and probably a result of the need to verify residence to issue a Real ID license. I notice the revision dates on the forms are 6/18 and 1/19.
Most likely. I'm glad to see they're finding solutions. It shouldn't be something that seems difficult or impossible for anyone. It needs to be simple. I'm trying to find the form that allowed my wife to not present her SSN Card as well. It was similar to the certificate of residency, except it was something she signed--not something another person signs. She has her card, we just didn't bring it with us at the time. Having that affidavit as an option certainly made the process much easier.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:19 PM
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Then you use your bank statement. Lots of people use banks, you know.
everyone I know under 30 banks on-line. Their statement goes to their email, not to a physical address. Same for most other bills.

But hey, I can go the the post office, buy some stamps, write myself a letter, steal an envelope from my employer, drop the letter in a mailbox, wait for it to be delivered, and use that. That's possible for most people, I suppose, but hardly seems like a good use of anyone's time.
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Did anyone change their name as a result of the marriage? What document was used to effect that change?
nope. We changed our names in a non-marriage way, by posting a notice of intent to change names in the local paper, and filling for a name change in court. Then we used that document to change everything else. At the time, men couldn't change names from marriage, and women could only change last names.

I assume that if I needed to prove I'm married the town would be able to cough up a document. Oddly, no one has ever asked me to prove that, including employers giving my husband benefits, and insurance companies. I'm guessing that it's something people don't lie about very often, and the cost of verifying it isn't worth the benefit. Hmm.
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Security Theater.

Pretending to do something, at the inconvenience of the many.
...
The effect of all this on the safety of fliers? Zip.
Yup. And achingly bad law. All because people like bear_nenno want to be sure that everything printed on an ID was true at the time the ID was applied for. As if I couldn't get a driver's license and move the next day.

And the SSN isn't even printed on the driver's licence. Why do I need to document that, again?
  #71  
Old 05-25-2019, 04:20 PM
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Most likely. I'm glad to see they're finding solutions. It shouldn't be something that seems difficult or impossible for anyone. It needs to be simple. I'm trying to find the form that allowed my wife to not present her SSN Card as well. It was similar to the certificate of residency, except it was something she signed--not something another person signs. She has her card, we just didn't bring it with us at the time. Having that affidavit as an option certainly made the process much easier.
Well goodie for her. So she signed something. And that's better than just signing that you live where you claim you live because...?
  #72  
Old 05-25-2019, 04:29 PM
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I quit flying a few years after 9/11 brought all the security changes.

I decided it wasn't worth getting too the airport 2 hours early and going through the TSA circus. Bastards took my grandfather's pocket knife that I had carried for 20 years.

Most of my trips are less than 500 miles. I can drive that in under 8 1/2 hours. Don't need a plane and all the bureaucratic hassle at an airport.
Bully for you!
But, if you want to go to Paris, France and not Paris, Arkansas it's going to be a tough drive.
  #73  
Old 05-25-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Doreen, New York will accept the following documents as proof of residence. You need to present two of them.

(1) Current Driver's license or ID card. (Seems simple enough)
(2) Certificate of Residency. (That's just a form that the parent signs swearing that the applicant lives at the stated address. That's pretty simple.)
(3) Postmarked mail. (That means that all you have to do is mail something to yourself, and bring it to the DMV once it arrives in your mail box. I don't think it can get simpler than that)

I'm not seeing the major inconvenience or impossibilities here.
Massachusetts gives you lots of options. Your number one is one, but I didn't have any IDs that included my address. Number two is an option as well, if you're under 18. And number three is not an option, it has to be from the government or some large organisation or be official in some way, like a W-2.

And at the time I had none of that, figured a letter from USCIS would be official enough, even without the envelope, and it wasn't, while a print out of a bank statement was.
  #74  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:31 PM
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everyone I know under 30 banks on-line. Their statement goes to their email, not to a physical address. Same for most other bills.
So do I. I'm not sure what your point is. Your online bank still has your address, and you can log into your account and print off something from the bank with your address on it. A statement, perhaps?
  #75  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:41 PM
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everyone I know under 30 banks on-line. Their statement goes to their email, not to a physical address.
That emailed statement should still have a mailing address on it. I have three different online banks with checking/savings accounts. I don't receive paper statements from any of them, but I could go online right now and print one off. All three have my mailing address on them. That doesn't include mortgages, auto insurance, home owner's insurance, and credit cards--all of which are handled online. But I could still log in and print something from them with my name and address on it. So, having online banking isn't an excuse.

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But hey, I can go the the post office, buy some stamps, write myself a letter, steal an envelope from my employer, drop the letter in a mailbox, wait for it to be delivered, and use that. That's possible for most people, I suppose, but hardly seems like a good use of anyone's time.
That's way too many steps. Just get a post card and stamp from the grocery store next time you're there. Drop it in any public mailbox. There's probably one in the parking lot.

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I assume that if I needed to prove I'm married the town would be able to cough up a document. Oddly, no one has ever asked me to prove that, including employers giving my husband benefits, and insurance companies. I'm guessing that it's something people don't lie about very often, and the cost of verifying it isn't worth the benefit. Hmm.
You don't have a copy of the court documents from the name change? What did you use to apply for your passport? You do have a passport, right? You would have needed something to show the change of your name from your birth certificate.

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Yup. And achingly bad law. All because people like bear_nenno want to be sure that everything printed on an ID was true at the time the ID was applied for. As if I couldn't get a driver's license and move the next day.
You could. But 9 days later, the ID would no longer be valid. You could be ticketed for that, and an officer who pulls you over will ask if you still live at that address. If you tell the truth, the officer may write you a ticket. If you lie, well that's another offense. Though, the officer probably wouldn't know. The point is, that these laws have already existed. The only difference now is that the Federal Government is involved, so everybody is freaking out.
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And the SSN isn't even printed on the driver's licence. Why do I need to document that, again?
I don't know. I've said as much.
  #76  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:49 PM
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Well goodie for her. So she signed something. And that's better than just signing that you live where you claim you live because...?
I don't think you're even paying attention at this point. She signed an affidavit attesting to her SSN Card--not her address. No one can "sign that you live where you live". The certificate of residency requires that SOME OTHER PERSON certifies under oath and penalty of imprisonment, that "you live where you say you live". That is much different than just a solitary person saying they live there. And, an additional proof of residency is still required.

As far as the affidavit for the SSN, I never said that I think people should need to produce their SSN card. In fact, I've said the opposite, and I said that I'm glad Florida offered this option.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:50 PM
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And at the time I had none of that, figured a letter from USCIS would be official enough, even without the envelope, and it wasn't, while a print out of a bank statement was.
Yea, that's kind of strange that the USCIS letter wasn't acceptable. What did they say was the issue? Was it too long ago? Or it just wasn't on their specific list, so they didn't accept it?
  #78  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:04 PM
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Those inconveniences (marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc) are the same for a passport. I thought we were complaining about needing to show proof of address? You almost had me convinced that this was the real argument. Now you're saying that we shouldn't require people to prove who they are at all. That seems like the bare minimum requirement for issuing identification--verifying identity.
I think there are quite a few problems with RealID. I was focusing on one of them, because that's where the conversation went.

The fact that you need a level of ID above a passport to get on a domestic flight with Document A but not Document B is stupid. So is needing passport-level ID to get on a domestic flight, but at a slightly lower level of stupidity. The fact that the TSA workers are a Federal Authority does not in any way, whatsoever, convince me that they must follow a Consistent Federal Standard Of Security And Validity for verifying people's identities, or that they should be verifying people's identity at all.

Edit: This isn't about security paranoia and "the man," but about the government putting stupid hurdles in front of people exercising basic rights of citizenship, such as travel and visiting civic institutions (and, at the state level, voting). And obviously they're not insurmountable; hurdles wouldn't work if some people couldn't get over them.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 08:08 PM.
  #79  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:36 PM
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I don't think you're even paying attention at this point. She signed an affidavit attesting to her SSN Card--not her address. No one can "sign that you live where you live". The certificate of residency requires that SOME OTHER PERSON certifies under oath and penalty of imprisonment, that "you live where you say you live". That is much different than just a solitary person saying they live there. And, an additional proof of residency is still required.

As far as the affidavit for the SSN, I never said that I think people should need to produce their SSN card. In fact, I've said the opposite, and I said that I'm glad Florida offered this option.
I am paying attention. You seen to think that because the license shows an address, it's critical that it be verified to some arbitrary federal standard in order use a driver's license to get on an airplane. That's nonsensical to me, as there's no reason TSA needs your address, as evidenced by a passport being adequate ID.

So I guess you agree that requesting the SSN is nonsensical, and therefore you are okay with her just swearing to it? Then can't you understand why I think it should be adequate to just swear to your address? Lying produces all the same problems that you point out could happen if I move. So why is "you could get in trouble for lying" good enough a week after the id is issued, but not good enough when it is issued?

And the idea that a document you print on your own computer is somehow proof of anything is pretty funny. So, law abiding citizens now have all sorts of inconvenient hurdles, but anyone who wants to cheat can do so trivially. How can that be good law?

Look, I know several people who have already been inconvenienced by this law. It took my mom an extra two weeks to get her license, and I heard about the gory details of the annoyances for several hours over those two weeks and the following few weeks. My son decided not to bother with real ID because it was too much trouble. I'm debating what I'm going to do. Quite possibly, I'll get a passport card instead. That will be easier, since i already have a passport.

(And yes, I have the name change document somewhere, and yes I used it to get a passport decades ago. It doesn't prove I'm married to my husband, though, so it doesn't do my any good if the utilities are in his name. Really, since getting a passport, I haven't used any other id except my unreal drivers license. The passport is good enough to prove who I am, that I'm eligible to work in the US and that I'm allowed to travel across international borders. I show the driver's license to buy booze and if a cop stops me. Oh, and once at a shooting range. What else do I need id for? )

Last edited by puzzlegal; 05-25-2019 at 08:38 PM.
  #80  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:03 PM
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Some people seem to be going out of their way to exaggerate how hard it is to get a proper photo ID. It's not that hard, folks.
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Old 05-25-2019, 11:54 PM
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Security Theater.

Pretending to do something, at the inconvenience of the many.

The time before I renewed my license I had to show a birth certificate. I copied my old license (note!), sent that into the suitable state, got a birth certificate. Used that to get a new license.

No verification by anybody that I was the actual person connected to the license or birth certificate.

The last renewal I needed proof of SSN or some such. Trivially generated and could have been faked by a 5th grader.

Yeah, that'll work.

The effect of all this on the safety of fliers? Zip.
Right. The state/feds have decreed that my declaration that I live at 123 Maple Street, NiceCity, NT is not acceptable because I could be a terrorist, so I must PROVE, I tells ya, prove that I live at that address.

So, assume I am a terrorist and go to get that proof. I go to one of my bank accounts and change the address online to the above address. I print out my statement. That is proof.

But the feds are sneakier than that. They require TWO proofs! So I call up my auto insurance and tell them that I moved to the above address and to please email me the new card so I am in compliance with the law. I get an email three minutes later. Since I pay all bills online and have declined paper copies, no mail is sent. I have my second proof.

Or, if I don't like that, I register to vote and put in the above address (no ID required for that) and have the mail forwarded to my real address.

You can look at the list of documents required to "prove" identity and all of them suffer from the same flaws.

Or, if I was a minimally below average terrorist, I could forge those documents with a cut and paste feature.

But at least the feds, for really no reason, have verified my residence, which as noted above, doesn't mean shit for security purposes which is why they have delayed the requirement for 15 years and will do so until the last state passes this absurd law.

All I want to do is drive. I should be able to swap out my old state ID for the new one. My picture is on it. That's me. Let's get on with it.
  #82  
Old 05-26-2019, 05:35 AM
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To get a first class airplane-qualified drivers license, I'd have to show, for instance, my passport AND some other BS like a utility bill I could whip up in Microsoft Word, even though the passport is valid for the same Real ID purposes by itself.
When I went to get my driver's license renewed (expiring soon and I had moved) I was told that they would NOT accept computer print-outs of bills - they had to have a paper bill mailed to your address with a valid postmark.

I suspect different states are requiring/enforcing document rules differently in this matter.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
I'm not sure the actual purpose of providing an SSN. But I know that you don't actually have to present the card to obtain a RealID.
Again - mileage seems to vary from state to state. I was also told that for my state a valid SS card was required to get RealID -OR- you could use something like a W2 from work... IF that W2 was mailed to you as a physical document, NOT printed off your computer. The "no computer print-out" was communicated at the BMV, not in th on-line information.

My company, like many, has been pushing people towards direct deposit an on-line W2's for years. If they've already issued a W2 to you for that year they will not mail you another. You can switch to "paper copy, please, and mail it" for next year, but that doesn't help you if you need to renew a license before then.

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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
And making people re-verify their identity and citizenship isn't necessarily an easy thing either. Not everyone has easy access to things like birth certificates and (for people who changed their names) marriage certificates, especially elderly people. This article is about voter ID, but some of the same challenges apply here too.
I actually still had my marriage certificate, but the state of Indiana would not accept it, saying it did not comply with modern document standards (?!?). I had to go back to Illinois to get a "modern" copy.

At that, I was better off than the elderly couple sitting next to me - the BMV bitch flat out told them that if they didn't have a marriage certificate in hand they weren't really married and the woman had been fraudulently using the "wrong" name all these years, then couldn't understand why the little old lady burst out into tears at that.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Now you're saying that we shouldn't require people to prove who they are at all. That seems like the bare minimum requirement for issuing identification--verifying identity.
Part of the problem is that the nation had gotten along with identifying people quite well without such elaborate verification and now all of sudden people are having to dig up documents from decades ago, half a century ago, even longer for the elderly... this is not such a problem for the young, whose lives are documented more thoroughly than ever, but for older folks who haven't had this need reconstructing all this can be a pain. Even more so if they've moved around a lot in their lives, necessitating a birth certificate from this state, marriage from that, other documentation from yet another....

Quote:
If you don't want to use it in that manner, then you don't need to get the RealID. Just tell your state you don't want a RealID and get the license without the star.
In my state, people getting their first license do NOT have the option to forego RealID.

In my state, people moving in from out of state do NOT have the option to forego RealID.

They're really pushing this thing - when I went to get my license renewed I was not told that I could opt out, I was told I HAD TO DO THIS. Which is, yes, against the rules but they're giving that out at the BMV, which they shouldn't be doing.

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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Who the hell keeps a marriage license around? I've never had a physical copy of that. I signed it at the wedding, gave it to the officiant (who presumably filled it with the town) and went off on my honey moon. That's the last time i touched it.
I kept mine - but as I said, the state of Indiana wouldn't accept it. I had to get another copy, conforming to "modern" standards. I am told this is happening to pretty much anyone married more than 20-25 years, especially if they were married outside the state.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Look man, I'm not saying that a utility bill should be the end all and be all of address confirmation. Yes, there should be options available for people who don't have bills. I'm not sure what options are available (certainly, some methods must be available).
There are not options for people living in Indiana.

You can, of course, switch your utility bills from on-line to paper temporarily... but at least some companies will charge you an additional fee for doing do.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
I'm willing to bet the solution is as simple as the ones in New York. It's a Federal Act, so I'd expect the rules to be similar across all states. I think you are all making this simple requirement out to be some impossible and unreasonable process.
Why would, say, Indiana implement this in exactly the same way as New York? Different states are different states, and some are being bigger asshats about this than others. Seems to me that the states are being asked to verify things, but how strict they are about what documents are acceptable is what varies.

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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Did anyone change their name as a result of the marriage? What document was used to effect that change?
This may blow your mind, but I have discovered the hard way that different states approached this differently. Not all states required you to document the name change - you just filled out your marriage certificate, then you started using your married name afterwards.

This is even worse for the divorced - used to be a copy of the divorce decree used to be sufficient for a woman to go back to using her maiden name. Nope, not any more - the state of Indiana is requiring a legal name change via court and judge. So a bunch of women have gone to get their license renewed and been told nope, you have to use your married name, doesn't matter you haven't used it in decades, it's your name. Have to get all your other stuff changed or pay to go in front of a judge and pay hundreds of dollars in fees to get this sorted out? Too bad, sucks to be you.

Og knows what happens to women who married, divorced, remarried... glad I don't have to sort out THAT mess!

This is causing no end of problems here in Indiana, where people (mostly women, but a few men as well) are having their names "corrected" by the RealID process.

I was also told by a BMV supervisor that there has been an issue with people who get their birth certificates and find out the name they were told all their life was their name is not, in fact, their name. Sometimes the family swapped around the first and middle names and never made it official, but all the person's documentation in life was in the "wrong" order of names, sometimes it was informal adoptions were birth certificate/name wasn't changed, all sorts of variations. These people are really screwed because NONE of their documentation matches their birth certificate. They're told to go in front of a judge and get a legal name change.

Oh, and that BMV supervisor? She told me she herself was caught in all this - apparently when she got divorced and went back to her maiden name it wasn't official enough. She's had to go in front of a judge and get her name "changed" to what's she's been using as her legal name for the past 20 years.

This happened to me. My name got "corrected" in this process (and when I tried to pull out halfway through all this mess I was told nope, you can't do that - you started this process you can't a license at all now unless it's a RealID) I am almost finished with straightening out the problem, but I am in the absolutely ludicrous situation that my state-issued RealID driver's license shows a different name than my Federally issued pilot's license. In other words, the ID that allows me into the airport is now different than the ID that allows me to fly an airplane. This is stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
So do I. I'm not sure what your point is. Your online bank still has your address, and you can log into your account and print off something from the bank with your address on it. A statement, perhaps?
No, you can't - the state of Indiana will not accept that. It has to be issued by the bank and mailed to you as a physical document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
I think you are all making this simple requirement out to be some impossible and unreasonable process.
Not impossible, but it annoying at best and extremely inconvenient for some people. In general, the older you are the more you have to chase about reconstructing your life. Getting most of these documents require some sort of fee to get copies or to update, or postage, and certainly it all requires time.

You're supposed to update your driver's license within 30 days of moving to Indiana. But you must have utility bill(s), bank statement(s), and so on mailed to you at your new address to do that... and that makes it virtually impossible for anyone to actually get this done within 30 days. Remember, if you're moving into the state you don't have a choice, you MUST get a RealID license. These regulations in fact make it impossible for many to comply with the law. And that is goddamned stupid.

Does this affect everyone? Of course not - some people are going to sail through all this with no problem. Have a passport in whatever name you've been using as your legal name? Doesn't matter, then, if you've been divorced/married/divorced/your parent's swapped your first and middle names around/whatever - what's on the passport is your name. So someone who first got a passport 30 or 40 years ago may not have a name issue even if otherwise their name is "wrong".

But it really does affect a subset of the population, with the majority of those being affected being women. Since the rules were (I presume) made by men it probably didn't occur to them it would be a problem and they probably don't care that it is.
  #83  
Old 05-26-2019, 06:36 AM
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Broomstick, it sounds like the morons in Indiana don't want anyone living there. And I thought Massachusetts was bad....
  #84  
Old 05-26-2019, 06:39 AM
doreen is online now
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Most likely. I'm glad to see they're finding solutions. It shouldn't be something that seems difficult or impossible for anyone. It needs to be simple. I'm trying to find the form that allowed my wife to not present her SSN Card as well. It was similar to the certificate of residency, except it was something she signed--not something another person signs. She has her card, we just didn't bring it with us at the time. Having that affidavit as an option certainly made the process much easier.
That's great- but as others have said, having your wife sign an affidavit is worthless as verification. And NY is willing to accept something that's signed by you and a person claiming to be a neighbor to verify your residence. It's all well and good that they are making it easier- but it means it is utterly worthless as verification. And if the "verification" doesn't verify anything, why are we bothering with it? Or requiring that a residential address appear at all? I believe you said earlier that the Feds were just requiring that states verify the information that they already collected. - but that wasn't true with SS and it's not entirely accurate regarding residence. I may have needed to provide proof of residence for my old, standard NY license, but I didn't have to have my residence shown on the license. It could have been my mailing address. Real ID requires that my license display my residence.

I have a job that involves verifying where people are living - we don't do it by having them fill out a form, or having them get someone to fill out a form claiming to be their neighbor, or ... We do it by unannounced visits to where they claim to be living at times of day when people are likely to be home. I understand that we don't want to /can't do that for everyone getting a license- but let's not pretend a "neighbor" signing a piece of paper verifies anything.

Last edited by doreen; 05-26-2019 at 06:40 AM.
  #85  
Old 05-26-2019, 06:50 AM
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too late to edit

Real ID requires that my license show my residence, not a mailing address.
  #86  
Old 05-26-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Some people seem to be going out of their way to exaggerate how hard it is to get a proper photo ID. It's not that hard, folks.
I find this attitude incredibly loathesome.

A large percentage of people just don't have the same documentation as you.

In particular women. I have a sibling that's been married 4 times. So to satisfy the federal numb-nuts that means copies of 4 marriage licenses and 3 divorce decrees. Paying money for each.

And that assumes these documents can be gotten. Stuff gets lost all the time.

And that assumes the place where you get your documents accepts that you are you. Some people get caught in a Catch-22. They can't prove who they are in order to get the documents to prove who they are.

And there's a ton of other exceptions. E.g., the state of Florida a while back decided that all Puerto Rican birth certificates were invalid since some of them were found to be questionable. Born in Puerto Rico (and a US citizen) and want a FL driver's license? Tough.

There's also a bunch of people in Texas from along the border whose birth was recorded by Mexican midwives the traditional way in parish records. Sorry, that's not proof. Sucks to be you. (Or not to be you.)

This irrational smugness about about how easy it is to do this is revolting.
  #87  
Old 05-26-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ftg View Post
And there's a ton of other exceptions. E.g., the state of Florida a while back decided that all Puerto Rican birth certificates were invalid since some of them were found to be questionable. Born in Puerto Rico (and a US citizen) and want a FL driver's license? Tough.
FYI - it wasn't Florida that did that. Puerto Rico declared all copies of birth certificates issued before some certain date ( I think in 2010 or so ) were invaljd. * The new ones issued after that date was valid- but of course, that meant that everyone born in PR before that date needed a new copy. Which they may not have found out until they tried to get a passport or a drivers license - which means some are finding out now.






* Apparently the issue was that birth certificates were stolen/sold as part of a process to obtain US passports by stealing a Puerto Rican's identity. Another part of the problem was that in Puerto Rico , multiple official copies were needed for registration in school, for employers, registration in sports leagues or other children's activities and so on. In my experience, just seeing the certificate or perhaps a photo copy will do in NY, but in PR they used to retain a certified copy - which meant that lots of people had access to other people's birth certificates. When they invalidated the certificated, they also made it illegal to retain someone's BC for these common transactions.

Last edited by doreen; 05-26-2019 at 09:17 AM.
  #88  
Old 05-26-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Some people seem to be going out of their way to exaggerate how hard it is to get a proper photo ID. It's not that hard, folks.
It's a whole lot harder for some people than for others.

It took me about ten minutes collecting documents, and maybe 15 minutes at the DMV; and about 40 minutes getting there and back, but I had another errand in the area that day anyway so probably more like 5 minutes additional to the travel time for the other errand. But I'm not everybody.

I have utility bills mailed to me within the last 30 days, and the recent ones are still on file and ready to hand. I have a passport, and know where it is. I have my social security card, and know where that is. I had a pre-existing driver's license for the same state and which showed my current address. All of that is pretty easy for me because I have a stable residence, don't move much, and tend to keep things (and have space to do so). The only reason I happen to have a passport is because I took a trip out of the country once, years ago, and each time the passport came up for renewal I had enough money to pay the fees and thought I'd better renew it just in case, because it's a whole lot easier to renew one than to get one from scratch. Lots of people have neither a passport nor a passport card. Lots of people don't have their birth certificates (I do, but because I had the passport I didn't need it.) Some people's birth certificates were lost long ago in a courthouse fire or flood, or a war someplace. The only reason I've got mine is that it was in my mother's records and, again, I've got a stable living situation and I tend to keep things -- as did my mother.

And, while the name almost everybody knows me by is not the name on any of that documentation, most of my documentation, including all of the above, has the same legal name on it. Spelled the same way.

Then add in to that: I live in an area where, so long as you don't go in at lunchtime, lines at the DMV are short; there were only three people ahead of me, and two clerks dealing with them. And I'm self employed: which means that, so long as I can pick the day to do it on, taking twenty minutes to get there, twenty minutes to get back, and about 15 minutes at the DMV -- and doing that not only during the hours when the DMV is open, but during the shorter hours when they're doing licenses -- is pretty easy for me to arrange. If I had the sort of job that required standard hours and gave me half an hour for lunch -- or even an hour for lunch, as the DMV lines are almost certainly, even in an area where the whole county has less population than many towns, considerably longer during standard lunch hours -- it would have been somewhere between difficult and close to impossible.
  #89  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I just signed for for Clear. At the airports theyre operating, I dont have to show any ID. Will that change?
When you show up to use Clear the first time, you go through an enrollment process. You provide them with ID, and answer a series of questions to confirm that you are you. Then they scan in your ID, take a picture of you, including a zoomed in scan of your eyes, and provide fingerprint scans. The next time you fly, you walk up, put your fingers on the fingerprint scanner, and look into the camera. The kiosk matches your fingerprints and eye scan, then displays a photo of you. The Clear employee looks at you and the picture, and escorts you to the TSA agent, identifying you to them by name. So they're basically certifying to TSA that your ID has been provided and inspected, and matched to you.

The enrollment verification questions, by the way, indicated a level of scrutiny into my background that surprised me. The questions indicated things like, "which of these cars has been registered at your current address," and "which of these addresses have you not resided at?" None of it was information I had provided to Clear, but all of which turned up on a credit and background check.
  #90  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Look man, I'm not saying that a utility bill should be the end all and be all of address confirmation. Yes, there should be options available for people who don't have bills. I'm not sure what options are available (certainly, some methods must be available). I could think of several common sense ways to verify it. Hell, they could simply mail you the license to your stated address instead of giving it to you at the office. That would verify you can receive mail at, and are affiliated in some way with that address. All I'm saying is that it is not absurd for the state to require an address on a driver's license, and it is not unreasonable for the federal government to mandate that the information be verified.
Up until the last time I renewed my license, they took my picture, printed the license, and provided it to me. But the last time I renewed, they told me that the new rules required them to mail it to me at the address listed on my license.
  #91  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I just signed for for Clear. At the airports theyre operating, I dont have to show any ID. Will that change?
Note that Clear is, according to their web page, "available at 50+ airports, stadiums, and other venues nationwide." So filtering out the "stadiums and other venues", it's only available at a handful of airports. If you fly out of any of the non-Clear airports, you will still need a RealID compliant ID, regardless of what the Clear rules are.

I signed up for a free Clear trial too, a few weeks ago. When I discovered how useless it's going to be, I cancelled it.
  #92  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
Note that Clear is, according to their web page, "available at 50+ airports, stadiums, and other venues nationwide." So filtering out the "stadiums and other venues", it's only available at a handful of airports. If you fly out of any of the non-Clear airports, you will still need a RealID compliant ID, regardless of what the Clear rules are.

I signed up for a free Clear trial too, a few weeks ago. When I discovered how useless it's going to be, I cancelled it.
Yeah, its not everywhere. So Ill have to bring my passport I guess. Ive used it a lot this month, including SeaTac, my home airport, and Yankee Stadium.
  #93  
Old 05-26-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Why would someone think that? A passport doesn't prove residency and doesn't have your SSN on it. The passport is enough to prove who you are, but you will need another document(s) to prove where you reside. You should present proof of SSN as well, but they do allow you to simply sign an affidavit swearing that your SSN is in fact the number you've given.
Why would it not work if you just want to trade in your old driver's license (same address etc)?



Mind you, I'll admit I'm still sore about being told that, as someone who wasn't a citizen of either the US, France or Germany and despite having a valid US license, PennDOT required me to take 40h of driving lessons before I could qualify for a license. Since I didn't have time for that shit and wasn't planning on buying a car, I simply used my Spanish license whenever I took a rental.
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Last edited by Nava; 05-26-2019 at 03:26 PM.
  #94  
Old 05-26-2019, 03:56 PM
doreen is online now
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
Yeah, its not everywhere. So Ill have to bring my passport I guess. Ive used it a lot this month, including SeaTac, my home airport, and Yankee Stadium.
Why did you need your passport at Yankee Stadium?
  #95  
Old 05-26-2019, 06:53 PM
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In case that wasn't a joke, Procrustus is saying that he used Clear at Yankee Stadium, not that he used his passport there.
  #96  
Old 05-26-2019, 07:07 PM
doreen is online now
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TSA require your U.S. driver's license to have a star to fly in 2020...


Quote:
Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
In case that wasn't a joke, Procrustus is saying that he used Clear at Yankee Stadium, not that he used his passport there.


It wasn’t a joke, I misunderstood. But I still have pretty much the same question. I looked up Clear and both Citifield and Yankee Stadium are listed. At both places, you have to go through the bag search if you have any bags

I go to Citifield all the time, including today . And I don’t see what advantage Clear gives you. I don’t need a passport or any other ID even if I don’t have Clear. Bags must be searched- what do you get to skip , the 5 second wanding?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by doreen; 05-26-2019 at 07:11 PM.
  #97  
Old 05-26-2019, 08:36 PM
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What they claim is you skip the line entirely. You go to a special Clear station, where they scan your eyes or fingerprints, and then a Clear agent escorts you to the front of the line, where you cut in and then are beaten to a pulp by other people in the line after the Clear agent leaves. No, wait, that last part probably doesn't always happen. The one time I used Clear at an airport, I did get escorted to the front of the very short security line, which probably saved me 60 seconds of waiting in line, but undoubtedly there are times when it's more useful.
  #98  
Old 05-26-2019, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
What they claim is you skip the line entirely. You go to a special Clear station, where they scan your eyes or fingerprints, and then a Clear agent escorts you to the front of the line, where you cut in and then are beaten to a pulp by other people in the line after the Clear agent leaves. No, wait, that last part probably doesn't always happen. The one time I used Clear at an airport, I did get escorted to the front of the very short security line, which probably saved me 60 seconds of waiting in line, but undoubtedly there are times when it's more useful.
The biggest time savings I've seen was at Denver International Airport, the day after Christmas. The TSA line filled the entire main floor. Even though it took me a few minutes to find the Clear/Pre-Check line, my entire TSA experience, from being dropped off at the curb, to boarding the train to my terminal, was seven minutes.
  #99  
Old 05-26-2019, 09:17 PM
doreen is online now
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
What they claim is you skip the line entirely. You go to a special Clear station, where they scan your eyes or fingerprints, and then a Clear agent escorts you to the front of the line, where you cut in and then are beaten to a pulp by other people in the line after the Clear agent leaves. No, wait, that last part probably doesn't always happen. The one time I used Clear at an airport, I did get escorted to the front of the very short security line, which probably saved me 60 seconds of waiting in line, but undoubtedly there are times when it's more useful.
I can see it being useful at the airport, if it gets you on the precheck line (or to the front of the regular line. But at the stadium - the walk to and from the designated entrance will probably take longer than I would have waited in line at my usual entrance.
  #100  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ftg View Post
I find this attitude incredibly loathesome.

A large percentage of people just don't have the same documentation as you.

In particular women. I have a sibling that's been married 4 times. So to satisfy the federal numb-nuts that means copies of 4 marriage licenses and 3 divorce decrees. Paying money for each.

And that assumes these documents can be gotten. Stuff gets lost all the time.
Then why does my 89 year old aunt have her birth certificate?

Also, if you were to get pulled over for a traffic violation, and Officer Friendly asks for license and insurance, do you think you can float by saying "stuff gets lost all the time"?

I think not.
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