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  #101  
Old 05-27-2019, 09:16 AM
thorny locust is offline
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Then why does my 89 year old aunt have her birth certificate?
That's absurd. Why did my tobacco-smoking grandfather live to be 93 and never get lung cancer?

Nobody said that everybody has trouble getting their birth certificates. But because some people have them doesn't mean that everybody has them or even can easily get them.

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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Also, if you were to get pulled over for a traffic violation, and Officer Friendly asks for license and insurance, do you think you can float by saying "stuff gets lost all the time"?
When anyone first gets a driver's license, they're clearly informed that they need to have that on them when driving. When anyone gets a car, they're clearly informed that they need to keep that documentation with the car or with whoever's driving it. Getting pulled over is a real possibility in any driver's life; it happens to just about everybody occasionally. Until very recently, nobody in the USA expected to need to show anybody their birth certificate, let alone their marriage license, or proof of the exact spelling of their name -- my bank accounts, at different banks, recognized two significantly different versions of my name until the laws changed after 2001. The very idea of being expected to show your documents, during most of my life (and I'm a good bit younger than your aunt), was considered a hallmark of totalitarian societies, and not anything USA citizens expected to do. Driver's licenses were an exception to that because most people agreed you needed training and functional eyesight to drive a car, and could lose the right if you drove badly enough.

So everybody who drives (which a lot of people don't) expects to need to have their driver's license on hand. But most people didn't expect to need most of the documentation you're now being required to have to renew it (and not only to renew it to drive, but to travel by other means, or to go into buildings they may have good reason to enter.) Some people keep things even if they don't expect to need them. Many people don't. Even people who intend to keep things lose them -- the moving company lost a box, the roommate who moved out took the wrong box, somebody cleaning the place up tossed a batch of old papers without checking each one to see if it might be wanted later, the house burned down.

Plus which, driver's licenses get renewed every few years, and are also on file with the state's motor vehicle office. If one is lost or stolen -- and yes, those things do both happen -- there's a clear specific place, still in existence, with a clear specific procedure for replacement. A birth certificate may have been on file in an office that burned down fifty years ago, or was blown up in a war zone. Or it may be filed in a different municipality than expected. (The location on mine isn't where we were living, it's where the hospital was. And not everyone even knows where their family was living when they were born.)
  #102  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Then why does my 89 year old aunt have her birth certificate?

Also, if you were to get pulled over for a traffic violation, and Officer Friendly asks for license and insurance, do you think you can float by saying "stuff gets lost all the time"?

I think not.
Actually, these days, with tons of information on line, officer friendly will likely cut you some slack if you have a valid license but don't have it on you. And I know from personal experience that misplacing the registration isn't a big deal. I have no idea how the registration got lost (it lives in the glove compartment) but a couple years ago I was pulled over and couldn't find it. The officer did cite me for speeding (I was) but he just looked up my registration and gave me advice on how to obtain a new copy.

Yeah, I'm a middle aged white woman driving in a nice neighborhood, in my home town. I could have gotten in trouble. But you did mention Officer Friendly.

And as thorny locust said, the last time I needed my birth certificate was when I got my first passport. That was mumble mumble decades ago. I think I have a birth certificate in the safety deposit box, but I'm not actually certain of that. I have literally never needed the social security card. I used to carry a hand-written card with the number on it, but eventually I learned the number and stopped carrying the card. I used that hand-written card to fill out paperwork for my first few jobs, though.

"Show me your papers" was how we knew who the bad guys were in movies and TV shows when I was a kid. I'm not relishing this modern fascist age of the government tracking our every move.
  #103  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:40 AM
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And yes, I realize the with the proliferation of web-enabled cameras and on-line databases that dozens (maybe hundreds) of entities are tracking our every move. Of course the government wants to, too. And on some level, why shouldn't it have that info, if Google, Facebook, and the local supermarket chain all have it. But when it starts to interfere with getting on with my life, I'm going to complain. And yes, real id will give me trouble. I have enough bills mailed to my residence that that should be okay, but if they actually want documentation of my social security number, that will be a project.

Oh, and I use different names in different places. My passport has four full names. My current driver's license has two names and one initial. My employer has three names My bank actually messed up and stored my middle name as the first part of my last name. (Think Jane Smith Jones, and they think my last name is "Smith Jones", while my legal surname is just "Jones".) There are other versions floating around, too.

This is going to be fun. If I could imagine how it would make anyone safer, I might be okay with it. But I see no benefit to anyone. It's security theater, not security.

Last edited by puzzlegal; 05-27-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #104  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Then why does my 89 year old aunt have her birth certificate?
I find it astonishing that anyone could say this with a straight face.
  #105  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:22 AM
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Yeah, it is rather hard to imagine the thought processes of a person that would make that argument.

New rule: everyone must produce a photo of the first house they lived in after they were born. What do you mean you don't have one? My 89 year old aunt has one!

I do have a copy of both my birth certificate and my Social Security card, but I certainly wouldn't think it at all strange if someone didn't. How often do you need either of those? I think the only time I used my birth certificate when I got my passport, and I don't think I've ever used my SS card.

Last edited by markn+; 05-27-2019 at 11:25 AM.
  #106  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
Yeah, it is rather hard to imagine the thought processes of a person that would make that argument.

New rule: everyone must produce a photo of the first house they lived in after they were born. What do you mean you don't have one? My 89 year old aunt has one!
I can get one off Google street view, does that count?
  #107  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by naita View Post
I can get one off Google street view, does that count?
That may be a better analogy than you think. You can only do that if the house still exists, and if you know the address of that house. Even if you know the address as of the date you were born, and even if it still exists, you might or might not be able to find it if the address has changed, and even if you can it's going to take a while.
  #108  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Exactly.

So, I'll just use my passport for domestic flights.
As a side note, we now have something called a passport card, which is legal for air or sea travel to Canada and the Caribbean - and is also sufficient to travel by air domestically (but NOT to Canada / Caribbean). It's a titch more portable than the actual passport.... though good luck convincing a TSA agent that it's legal.

A couple years back, a friend accidentally let her license expire. The documentation required is much higher when sorting that out than it would have been had she gotten it renewed in time - more so because a) she is a naturalized citizen, and b) our state was just beginning to issue RealID-compliant documents. I believe that at that time, she was required to get a RealID version while others (regular renewals, non-immigrants and so on) could choose either version, though I may be misremembering that. The complication was that her **original certificate of naturalization** was not deemed sufficient proof that she was here legally, and some immigration database was farkled and didn't have her listed. I think it took a call to her Congressman to straighten it out. No clue what'll happen the next time mine is up for renewal (7 years, I think); I know my existing one is NOT compliant.
  #109  
Old 05-29-2019, 03:53 AM
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Gah, I have ranted about this before. The last time I renewed my DL it was such a hassle, because of the RealId thing my name had to match the name on my SS card. I go by my middle name and always have; my first name was not on my SS card. I told them to leave the first name off, they said they couldn't do that. Nope, I had to go change my name with Social Security, which meant I had to dig out my birth certificate, which was such an old copy (photocopied in negative, as they used to do it) that Social Security wanted me to get an updated copy. Then wait, then another trip to the driver's license office.

I had already been warned about the whole thing of taking in a utility bill. The utility bill has my husband's name on it. Fortunately, my car registration worked.

A friend of mine had an even worse ordeal. She got married and changed her name, but then she really didn't ever use her married name. (She has a very awkward last name. She thought she'd be happy to have a much less awkward one. But it turned out that since everyone knew her professionally by the maiden name, she wanted to continue to use it.) So she had the married name on her DL. However, the name on her SSN had never changed. So she had to prove she was entitled to use her maiden name by bringing in an official birth certificate from the county where she was born. She got a particularly passive-aggressive clerk who did not want to take her birth certificate from New York City because...it was not from a county. It was from a city. She ended up calling a state senator she knew whose best advice was for her to try a different DL office, which she did--and that worked.

I don't get it, actually. Everybody is being scanned and probed and the luggage is being scanned and probed before anything gets on the plane, so who cares what name they're using? I don't even care if I get on an airplane with an actual terrorist as long as said terrorist does not have any incendiary devices or hidden weapons while on board. And my DL picture doesn't look like me. They are using this washed out, expressionless, colorless photo with my hair scraped back. Anyone who stole my DL, male or female, could emulate this look quite easily.
  #110  
Old 05-29-2019, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Hilarity N. Suze View Post
She got a particularly passive-aggressive clerk who did not want to take her birth certificate from New York City because...it was not from a county. It was from a city.
I dread encountering that one day - I was born in St. Louis which is not in a county. At all. There is a St. Louis county, but it does NOT include the CITY of St. Louis. I can not produce a birth certificate from the county in which I was born because I wasn't born inside a county.

Yet another example of why some of these rules are between stupid and criminal - they're made without any regard to the real world and how the real world does not always conform to the bureaucratic rules.
  #111  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
When I went to get my driver's license renewed (expiring soon and I had moved) I was told that they would NOT accept computer print-outs of bills - they had to have a paper bill mailed to your address with a valid postmark.
Brromstick, the Indiana RealID site specifically says that computer-generated residency documents are allowed.

"You need two computer-generated documents to prove your Indiana residency when you apply for a new driverís license, permit, or identification card."
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2576.htm
  #112  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Brromstick, the Indiana RealID site specifically says that computer-generated residency documents are allowed.

"You need two computer-generated documents to prove your Indiana residency when you apply for a new driverís license, permit, or identification card."
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2576.htm
Except that what matters is how the clerk you happen to be dealing with interprets the law. Unless you have unlimited to keep making new appointments to find a clerk whose interpretation matches the documents you happen to have.
  #113  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:55 AM
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Brromstick, the Indiana RealID site specifically says that computer-generated residency documents are allowed.

"You need two computer-generated documents to prove your Indiana residency when you apply for a new driver’s license, permit, or identification card."
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2576.htm 111
Except that "computer-generated bill" does not typically mean " a bill that was emailed to you and you printed it out" . The phrase pre-existed emailed bills, and traditionally and normally means "Not handwritten or typed " . And while it would indeed be unusual to have a handwritten or typed utility, credit card or hospital bill, it is not at all unusual to get a handwritten or typed bill from a doctor. Or a handwritten or typed paystub - which is why paystub says "pre-printed". Maybe they will accept printed copies of emailed bills- or maybe not. It's impossible to tell from that list.
  #114  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:15 PM
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Except that what matters is how the clerk you happen to be dealing with interprets the law. Unless you have unlimited to keep making new appointments to find a clerk whose interpretation matches the documents you happen to have.
Either way, Broomstick tried to claim that "There are not options for people living in Indiana." But there clearly are options. There are over a dozen options, in fact. One of those options, just like New York and Florida, a "residency affidavit" signed but someone else. Another option is simply a lease. Everyone should have a lease, right? Are you all going to say that you have neither a lease nor any mortgage paperwork?

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Originally Posted by Broomstick
Why would, say, Indiana implement this in exactly the same way as New York? Different states are different states, and some are being bigger asshats about this than others.
Don't know, but the lists from Indiana looks awfully similar to the lists from the other two states I've looked at so far.

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Part of the problem is that the nation had gotten along with identifying people quite well...
The anecdotes in this thread seem to suggest otherwise. It appears that the nation was doing a very poor job of identifying anyone, and people just went around changing their names at will, and claiming to be whomever they wanted. It's no wonder why it's always been so easy for wanted criminals to move to another town and just start up a new identity.
  #115  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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Also among the options for proof of Indiana residency is, "Voter Registration Card". Aren't you registered to vote, Broomstick? You could have brought your voter registration card and a sworn affidavit from someone else in your house. Or you could have brought a "U.S. Postal Service change of address confirmation". I can't think of anything simpler than that! That takes five minutes at the post office. Hell, you could do it online and wait for the confirmation letter that comes a day or two later.
  #116  
Old 05-29-2019, 02:55 PM
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I must have lucked out. I decided to get a RealID in 2017 after reading an article in the paper about how NC driver's licenses and IDs would not be valid for TSA purposes in a few years, and decided to beat the rush. I anticipated some difficulties because I had legally changed my name in 1982, so of course my birth certificate didn't match my current name. I went to the NC DMV website to find out what paperwork I needed to bring in. As it turned out, I already had all the documentation readily available. Just to be on the safe side, I brought several different types of some of them. Took the bus to the nearest DMV office, where the info desk looked over what I had to verify that it was what I needed and gave me a number. After about a fifteen minute wait, my number was called. The clerk looked over my documentation, entered everything into the system, gave me a receipt, and said my new ID would be mailed to me. Caught the next bus home, and in about a week I had my RealID, just in time for a planned trip.
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  #117  
Old 05-29-2019, 03:13 PM
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Nenno, you have the patience of a saint.
  #118  
Old 05-29-2019, 04:46 PM
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Nenno, you have the patience of a saint.
Agree. I don't get the hostility directed at him in this thread. It's possible to not be happy with the policy without being a dick to someone just trying to provide answers and clarification.

And I think one thing people are missing is that even though your address isn't printed in your passport or on the passport card, a permanent address is required on the application. I imagine that's verified in some fashion when the application is processed.
  #119  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Brromstick, the Indiana RealID site specifically says that computer-generated residency documents are allowed.

"You need two computer-generated documents to prove your Indiana residency when you apply for a new driver’s license, permit, or identification card."
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2576.htm
Yes, but --

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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Except that what matters is how the clerk you happen to be dealing with interprets the law. Unless you have unlimited to keep making new appointments to find a clerk whose interpretation matches the documents you happen to have.
^ This is the key thing - you are at the mercy of the bureaucratic peon processing your request.

Like I said, I SHOULD have been told I had an option for a "unreal" ID. I was not. In fact, I was explicitly told I did NOT have the option, I HAD TO get RealID which is in direct contradiction to what is on line and what I later confirmed with a higher strata of the BMV. In other words, the clerks are either misinformed or outright lying to people. Doesn't matter - you're at their mercy.

Likewise, you're at their mercy if they decide they just don't like the documentations you brought in. Like the poster who couldn't get the clerk to accept a birth certificate from New York City, but insisted on a county issued birth certificate.

Last edited by Broomstick; 05-29-2019 at 05:32 PM.
  #120  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Either way, Broomstick tried to claim that "There are not options for people living in Indiana." But there clearly are options. There are over a dozen options, in fact. One of those options, just like New York and Florida, a "residency affidavit" signed but someone else.
The BMV in my area will not accept that. They are very, very clear on that. You have to have EITHER a written lease that has your name on it somewhere OR a mortgage OR a deed to a property in your name that is paid off.

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Another option is simply a lease. Everyone should have a lease, right? Are you all going to say that you have neither a lease nor any mortgage paperwork?
I actually lived 19 years here in Lake County on a verbal agreement month-to-month. I had no reason to change the arrangement, and it worked well for 19 years. The landlord and I discussed getting a written lease between us as I was looking at getting both a RealID and a passport and that would have simplified matter considerably... but then a Bad Thing happened to the building and I was forced to move last September. After which I signed a very conventional one year lease.

But, to answer your question - no, not everyone has either a lease or mortgage, and it's not always a because they're couch-surfing or living in a van down by the river (and even if they are - the homeless should be able to get ID just like anyone else).

(In case you're wondering - my former landlord refunded me the pro-rated portion of the September rent for the balance of the month after the loss of all utilities even though all we had was a verbal handshake agreement without my even having to ask him.)

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Don't know, but the lists from Indiana looks awfully similar to the lists from the other two states I've looked at so far.
Uh-huh.

And just like you're supposed to provide and official birth certificate, and some clerk can arbitrarily decide that it has to be a certified copy from a county rather than your city of birth even though "county-issued" is not specified anywhere. (I would like to think it's because whoever came up with the requirements on a Federal level was aware that there are 23 municipalities in the US that are outside of any county).

It's not just the requirements, it's also how they're enforced.

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The anecdotes in this thread seem to suggest otherwise. It appears that the nation was doing a very poor job of identifying anyone, and people just went around changing their names at will, and claiming to be whomever they wanted.
Yes, in fact it was entirely legal to use any name you wanted to use provided there was no fraud or evasion of legal penalties involved.

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It's no wonder why it's always been so easy for wanted criminals to move to another town and just start up a new identity.
Not as easy as you assume - most people were able to provide a paper trail back to their birth when asked. It was recognized that "Bill Smith" was most likely a nickname of "William Smith". A woman changing her name at marriage or divorce was considered perfectly normal, without the need for a formal, legal name change but there was still a paper trail of her identify up until the marriage, then the marriage, then a new name after that still had some resemblance to the prior name. And, oh yes, you could get a signed affidavit for some potential holes in your paper trail, but I have been in the BMV (I have spent entirely too much time there getting this shit straightened out) when a clerk loudly announces that NO, you MUST have the documents they require and there are NO alternative options whatsoever.

I passed a TSA background check in 2008 with no problem, the government was perfectly happy to accept as my legal name the name I've been using since I got married - but I couldn't get a driver's license renewed in that name? Again, in the name I've had EVERYTHING in for 30 years? WTF? There is something really wrong with this picture....
  #121  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:59 PM
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Also among the options for proof of Indiana residency is, "Voter Registration Card". Aren't you registered to vote, Broomstick?
Yes. I am.

But the voter registration card does not, according to the BMV, have my legal name on it so they did not accept it. Keep in mind - they said the name I've been using as my legal name for 30 years, accepted by all levels of government for thirty years is NOT correct. The problem isn't my address, it's my name. Which they arbitrarily changed to something I have NEVER used at all, EVER.

AGAIN - the document that lets me get into the airport no longer matches the document that allows me to fly an airplane.

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You could have brought your voter registration card and a sworn affidavit from someone else in your house.
I live alone. I have exactly four living relatives in all the world and the nearest is located in Buffalo, New York. Um... what other people in my house?

Quote:
Or you could have brought a "U.S. Postal Service change of address confirmation". I can't think of anything simpler than that!
I have a brand new lease. Which, of course, I signed with what has been my legal name for THIRTY YEARS. Which the BMW does not accept as my legal name.

It's not the address that is the problem, it's the name. Any system that "corrects" a person's name to something that that person has NEVER used is bullshit.
  #122  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:47 PM
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The problem isn't my address, it's my name. Which they arbitrarily changed to something I have NEVER used at all, EVER.
Out of curiosity, where did they get that name, if you've never used it EVER?
  #123  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:59 PM
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Mash-up of my birth name and my married name, basically.

I have had to resort to a lawyer and a court date to get this all sorted out. After the middle of June I will officially have my name back.
  #124  
Old 05-29-2019, 07:26 PM
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Mash-up of my birth name and my married name, basically.
Sorry, but the clerk just picked random names off of your documentation and made up his/her own name for you?
  #125  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:38 PM
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Agree. I don't get the hostility directed at him in this thread. It's possible to not be happy with the policy without being a dick to someone just trying to provide answers and clarification.
The "hostility" is because he insists that's it's not a problem , it's a "minimal inconvenience' while not acknowledging that it is
A ) Very much a problem for some people.
and
B ) The reason it's not a problem for more is because the requirements have been so watered down that documents are accepted that don't prove anything. Which means the whole thing is pointless - at best, some of those documents prove that you can collect mail at a particular address and some of them don't even prove that. OK so I print off my online bank statement - and that proves what? It proves that I gave the bank that address at some point. I didn't need to show my bank proof of my address when I moved into my house 32 years ago and changed my address with them -and they don't know if I've moved since they went to paperless statements. While simultaneously, my passport is not sufficient as proof of my name - it's only worth 4 points and I need 6. But my valid or expired for less than 2 years NY license is worth 6 points and I don't need anything else as proof of my name. But the passport that isn't sufficient proof for a Real ID will allow me to board a plane without any additional ID.

That certification of residence for NY- a "coworker" or "neighbor" can fill that out. And I put those words in quotes because DMV has no idea if the person signing it is actually my coworker or neighbor or if I gave the homeless guy at Dunkin Donuts a dollar to sign it. And that oath business doesn't mean a thing- people lie under oath every day. It doesn't even ask for the address of the person making the certification, or a copy of their ID or for them to appear before a notary - how the hell is anyone going to find the person to punish them armed with only the name on the form? They're not - and they aren't even going to try. And anyone can figure that out if they think for half a second.


He's not coming in here saying " Yeah, it will be difficult or even impossible for some people, but here are ways you can get around it in State X, even though printing an emailed bank statement proves nothing" - I think he would have gotten a much different reaction if he said that.Instead, he's saying if states ask for your residence, they should be required to verify it ( even if it leads to accepting worthless proof) and doesn't everyone have a lease ( nope) and aren't you registered to vote ?

Last edited by doreen; 05-29-2019 at 08:39 PM.
  #126  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:51 PM
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I own my home. We paid off the mortgage years ago. But we never actually got the deed. Yes, of course we should do that. But there were a lot of more urgent things in our lives at the time, and we didn't have the energy to pursue it, and, you know, it's not the sort of thing that comes up...
  #127  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:52 PM
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And yes, the hostility isn't because he's finding suitable documentation. It's because he's belittling the real troubles actual people are having.
  #128  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Hilarity N. Suze View Post
A friend of mine had an even worse ordeal. She got married and changed her name, but then she really didn't ever use her married name. (She has a very awkward last name. She thought she'd be happy to have a much less awkward one. But it turned out that since everyone knew her professionally by the maiden name, she wanted to continue to use it.) So she had the married name on her DL. However, the name on her SSN had never changed. So she had to prove she was entitled to use her maiden name by bringing in an official birth certificate from the county where she was born..
Got married to my first husband, he was Navy. I did not plan on changing my surname, the Navy yeoman doing paperwork sent something to the SS office though the name on the miltary ID I was issued, my drivers license and my passport remained the same as all my assorted security clearances.


So off I go to badge in to work a nuke plant outage ... and it gets gigged because my SSN info and none of my ID matches. SO off I go back to Norfolk VA from Asheville NC to sort the issue out. All because someone didn't believe women should keep their maiden names? I know I never filled out the paperwork nor sent it in ...



[I figured it would be easier to keep my maiden name than change it on 3 different clearances, my certifications and my personal documents ...]
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  #129  
Old 05-30-2019, 02:36 AM
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Sorry, but the clerk just picked random names off of your documentation and made up his/her own name for you?
Yep.
  #130  
Old 05-30-2019, 02:44 AM
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Sorry, but the clerk just picked random names off of your documentation and made up his/her own name for you?
Yep.

Basically she said "here is the name you should have changed it to when you got married". Then more or less implied I've been committing fraud all these years. Then told me I had to "fix" the name on everything else because I should have been using the "correct" name all along.

Sort of what aruvqan had to deal with.
  #131  
Old 05-30-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Yep.

Basically she said "here is the name you should have changed it to when you got married". Then more or less implied I've been committing fraud all these years. Then told me I had to "fix" the name on everything else because I should have been using the "correct" name all along.

Sort of what aruvqan had to deal with.
Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. They don't have managers there you could talk to or anything?
  #132  
Old 05-30-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
Got married to my first husband, he was Navy. I did not plan on changing my surname, the Navy yeoman doing paperwork sent something to the SS office though the name on the miltary ID I was issued, my drivers license and my passport remained the same as all my assorted security clearances.


So off I go to badge in to work a nuke plant outage ... and it gets gigged because my SSN info and none of my ID matches. SO off I go back to Norfolk VA from Asheville NC to sort the issue out. All because someone didn't believe women should keep their maiden names? I know I never filled out the paperwork nor sent it in ...



[I figured it would be easier to keep my maiden name than change it on 3 different clearances, my certifications and my personal documents ...]
Hah! You'd think it would be, but that boneheaded clerk made it harder.

We'd been told by friends that if I meant to use my married name, I had to bring the marriage certificate to a social security office and get them to change it, otherwise it would slow down our tax return processing. I did, and we had no problems. I actually continued using my maiden name professionally - only switched to the married name when we moved to another state. So they were getting W2s in my maiden name. But it had the right SS number so I guess they were happy.

A friend tried to get married via a justice of the peace in her hometown (small town in mountainous NC). She asked "what do I need to do to keep my maiden name?". The JP said "you can't!". Which was a lie and they knew it. They walked.... and got married in a more modern-thinking town in central NC. No problem whatsoever. It turns out that what you have to do is "nothing". Just don't change your name anywhere.
  #133  
Old 05-30-2019, 10:18 AM
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When I legally married my same-sex partner, there was a question about whether we would change our names, but no requirement.

I have two middle names, from a legal name change as an adolescent. Different government documents use different middle initials--a decision presumably made by clerks, not by me.
  #134  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:50 PM
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I kept my maiden name, when I got married. Taught an adult education class, the Paymaster called my husband up and asked him if he knew my name was different than his! Anyway I had to go to the SS place to get a replacement card in order to get the “special” license. It’s a pain, but I have a passport to travel

Last edited by eenerms; 05-30-2019 at 12:50 PM.
  #135  
Old 05-30-2019, 03:33 PM
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I just renewed my license and opted to not get the RealID since I have never flown, have never left the country and didn't feel like dealing with the following:

I have my original birth certificate which is really cute because it has my teeny footprint and the state seal on it. But starting about 3 years ago everyone is supposed to get a brand new from the State birth certificate. Not the cute hospital one.

The next question is is my full name different than my birth certificate. Yes, I got married. Which means I have to bring my marriage certificate. Luckily, the Mister just pulled that out. But I am unsure if it is the certified copy or just a signed by the JOP copy.

I do have a current SS card because I got that changed about a week after we were married.

I need 2 documents to establish my address. I have my voter registration card and my DL plus a ton of other options.

My license is good for another 8 years and if this is still a "thing" I may start the process the year before it needs renewing. By then the odds of us going somewhere I would need one will have gone up 2%. The Mister will be closer to retirement and might want to take me to Hawaii, Las Vegas or Florida. But the thought of flying makes me queasy...
  #136  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:20 PM
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The claim that Real ID doesn't require the address, they just require that, if the state requires it, it has to be verified, is false.

The Real ID law expressly requires that the state ID have a residence address printed on it. So states that previously allowed the use of a mailing address, or concealment of one's residence address for safety purposes, e.g., had to change that. So, no, it isn't just verifying what information states already put on the cards.

Quote:
(b) Minimum Document Requirements.--To meet the requirements of this
section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information
and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to
a person by the State:
(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card
number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent
tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for
fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined
minimum data elements.
The requirements don't make us safer. They put everyone's information at risk, and they put some individuals at increased personal risk.

It seems to me from looking at the requirements that the main purpose of the law was probably to deny undocumented immigrants drivers licenses.
  #137  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:29 PM
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Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. They don't have managers there you could talk to or anything?
I took it all the way to the state capitol, talking via phone to Indianapolis. Apparently it's a clusterf*** all around with thousands of Hoosiers affected, but the way the rules are written there's not much to be done, especially as it is now a done deal. Even though I was lied to I can't go back and get an unreal license, apparently once you have RealID you can ONLY have RealID forever afterward, even if you were deceived regarding your options.

I am very unhappy about this, which is why I retained a lawyer and I'm going to court to get a document saying, essentially, my name really is my name. It's insane and crazy, but I didn't want to be arguing with bureaucrats the rest of my life about this.
  #138  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:29 PM
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(6) The person's address of principle residence.
Oh god, is there really an official site with this misspelling? Clearly the whole law is thereby invalidated.

Anyway, I have no principles, so this doesn't apply to me.
  #139  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:43 PM
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I copied and pasted from the PDF of the law linked here: https://reason.com/2019/01/15/americ...rnal-passport/.

So I guess the question is where do your principles reside?

Last edited by eschrodinger; 05-30-2019 at 04:45 PM.
  #140  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:22 PM
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So I guess the question is where do your principles reside?
Duh, in the school office.
  #141  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschrodinger View Post
The claim that Real ID doesn't require the address, they just require that, if the state requires it, it has to be verified, is false.

The Real ID law expressly requires that the state ID have a residence address printed on it. So states that previously allowed the use of a mailing address, or concealment of one's residence address for safety purposes, e.g., had to change that. So, no, it isn't just verifying what information states already put on the cards.



The requirements don't make us safer. They put everyone's information at risk, and they put some individuals at increased personal risk.

It seems to me from looking at the requirements that the main purpose of the law was probably to deny undocumented immigrants drivers licenses.
Interesting. I've never had a driver's license with my full legal name. My state wouldn't allow me to include one middle name, let alone to, they only allowed a single middle initial.

This is going to be so much fun.

And yes, I've been assuming the purpose is to hassle immigrants and the homeless.
  #142  
Old 05-30-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I wonder whether there isn't selective enforcement.

New York started offering two levels of Real ID recently, and my license was up for renewal. I got the lower level (suitable for domestic flights and entering buildings/bases, but not for crossing borders, and cheaper) because I have a passport, which I don't routinely carry or want to routinely carry but could use if I intended to cross borders. I came prepared with current driver's license, passport, social security card, and two bills with my address on them.

The DMV used the first three items, but didn't ask for proof of residence. When I asked about it, they said my old driver's license was good enough -- but the thing was over 9 years old, and while I am still living in the same place, I could have easily moved a dozen times over that time span. They had sent me a renewal notice to that address, but someone else living there could have taken in the mail and given it to me; and the instructions I found online had said to bring two recent items for proof of address, and not mentioned that one.

Possibly relevant information, and I have no idea which parts of it might apply: I am white, female, in my 60's, live in an area in which the county seat qualifies for 'small town' contests, and it's possible the clerk recognized me from somewhere (see item 4) though if so they didn't say so.
Also in New York, but in New York City. I had to bring along all the same forms of ID that you did, but in my case, they did ask for proof of residence (in addition to the just-expired old, standard, non-RealID license). Fortunately, I had utility bills and bank statements and stuff. And I had an official copy of my birth certificate, and my passport.

I didn't have my social security card (don't think I've had one for the last 30 years), but the DMV will accept a W-2, or various documents from the Social Security Administration.

I didn't feel like the whole process was especially burdensome, or fascist, or anything like that. It really wasn't a big deal. I was in and out of the DMV office in 30 or 40 minutes, including waiting time, and the new license came in the mail the next week. And I can see the need. Years ago, the process for getting a license in my state was pretty lax. Half the people I knew had fake addresses. Or entirely fake licenses.

It was expensive, though. Eighty-something dollars. I could see that being an obstacle for some people. If the new Real ID license/non-driver ID were ever required for voting, I would have a problem with that.

I can see that assembling all the required documentation from scratch, for someone who never held a license or had a passport, could be a pain in the neck, and quite time-consuming.
  #143  
Old 05-31-2019, 09:59 AM
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Likewise, you're at their mercy if they decide they just don't like the documentations you brought in. Like the poster who couldn't get the clerk to accept a birth certificate from New York City, but insisted on a county issued birth certificate.
That seems absurd- around here, it's a state-level document. As in, if you need an official copy, you can go to the city or county and get one- the actual official document that's printed is the same, as is the special certified paper.

The ONLY difference is who signs as registrar.
  #144  
Old 05-31-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
That seems absurd- around here, it's a state-level document. As in, if you need an official copy, you can go to the city or county and get one- the actual official document that's printed is the same, as is the special certified paper.

The ONLY difference is who signs as registrar.
I'm not sure which part you think is absurd- that NY City issues birth certificates or that the person in another state wouldn't accept a birth certificate issued by a city. Of course it's absurd for it not to be accepted - but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You surely must have encountered this on the Dope if nowhere else - people who believe that the way things are done in their location are the way things are done everywhere . They work in state agencies, too.

There are something like 40 independent cities in the US which are not part of any county. Then there are places where the city and county have merged, places where the county has only a nominal existence and NYC (which is unique in being made up of 5 boroughs, each of which is coterminous with a county) and Washington DC and ... You would think people whose job requires obtaining people's birth certificates would be aware that different places do things differently- but don't count on it.

Last edited by doreen; 05-31-2019 at 11:39 AM.
  #145  
Old 05-31-2019, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
That seems absurd- around here, it's a state-level document. As in, if you need an official copy, you can go to the city or county and get one- the actual official document that's printed is the same, as is the special certified paper.

The ONLY difference is who signs as registrar.
Yes. That's true where YOU are. Maybe not everywhere else. That's sort of the point.

As I mentioned - if anyone ever asks me to supply proof of the COUNTY in which I was born I'm SOL because I was born in a location that is part of NO county whatsoever. And I'm sure that happy little bureaucrat will say something like "I do declare, I have NEVER heard of that before!" or tell me it's impossible to not be in a county or some variant they will insist is reality but is, in fact, not true.

Fortunately, no one has asked that of me. Yet.
  #146  
Old 05-31-2019, 02:04 PM
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Interesting. I've never had a driver's license with my full legal name. My state wouldn't allow me to include one middle name, let alone to, they only allowed a single middle initial.

This is going to be so much fun.

And yes, I've been assuming the purpose is to hassle immigrants and the homeless.
My kids have hyphenated last names. This is something that I've been aware of people doing since I was a kid, and it's been increasingly common in those (mumble mumble) decades. I expected it not to be an issue at all. Didn't even think about it, really. But almost any time we provide their names, when it's printed out, there's no hyphen. It bugs me, because it is incorrect, but now it also makes me worry that it's going to be a hassle where records are going to "not match" because of it.

It might not be a big deal in dealing with people, most of the time, because most will recognize that it's probably a limitation of the computer system (stupid as that is at this point). But I've also had a problem linking one of my kids to the account I set up to pay for school lunches. I haven't spent the time to figure it out yet, but I suspect that one kid's name is correct in the system, and one is not. And who knows if they are going to have headaches based on things not matching exactly to their birth certificates in the future.
  #147  
Old 05-31-2019, 02:14 PM
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Speaking as someone who has had a hyphenated name these past 30 years... yes, usually it's not a problem but sooner or later it WILL be a problem. But I think at some point any name will pose a problem to some comprehension-impaired gatekeeper/bureaucrat/computer system. Just some are more likely to run into it, and more often than others.
  #148  
Old 05-31-2019, 02:48 PM
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Another problem: No middle name. I have a sibling without one.

Yes, this is a problem.

"Look, the form has a space for a middle initial, so we won't accept it without one."
  #149  
Old 05-31-2019, 05:44 PM
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Yeah, I've had that problem, too...

Also people insisting that you are legally required to have a middle name. Which you aren't.
  #150  
Old 05-31-2019, 06:36 PM
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Had a clerk tell me once that my wife and I couldn't be married because we didn't have the same last name.
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