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Old 11-07-2019, 04:38 PM
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Medical ethics and parent-mandated "virginity tests"


https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-check-outrage

There's a Pit thread about it already, but I'm interested in the medical ethics of the situation, especially if the child is underage. If a father asks a doctor to check his daughter for virginity, what should the doctor do? It seems obvious to me that it's wrong, both ethically and morally for a doctor to accede to this wish (and thus violate the consent of a child -- who can't consent to such an unnecessary procedure). But can a doctor lie about it (i.e. take the daughter into an exam room, chat with her for a bit, and then tell the parent that it's all good)? Should a doctor notify child services? Is there existing ethical guidance for such a situation?
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-check-outrage

There's a Pit thread about it already, but I'm interested in the medical ethics of the situation, especially if the child is underage.
Ethically, I'd hope the doctor would explain to the father than unless the girl tells him she lost her virginity, she was caught having sex or (in most cases) she's pregnant, that there's no medical way to tell. Further, hopefully the doctor would explain that just because a hymen is no longer intact doesn't mean she's had sex.

Lying to the dad about checking her hymen and telling him she has/hasn't had sex based on what the doctor sees would serve only to make things worse for everyone involved.
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:21 PM
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I am not a doctor by any means, but I think the most ethical thing would be for the doctor to tell the parent to F off. Unfortunately, the parent might just simply go to a different doctor instead until he/she finds one who will do it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:25 PM
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I am a doctor, used to take care of kids, and would have refused such a request as 'not medically necessary' unless there was legitimate concern about a possible sexual assault. If so I would have turned the case over to a trained sexual assault nurse examiner.
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:54 PM
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I don't have a link, but is there a HIPPA concern with the father sitting in the room with the daughter pressuring her to consent to releasing her information to him? To me, that was the part that was creepy as hell and probably breaking some laws.
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:04 PM
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Nitpick: HIPAA, not HIPPA
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
I don't have a link, but is there a HIPPA concern with the father sitting in the room with the daughter pressuring her to consent to releasing her information to him? To me, that was the part that was creepy as hell and probably breaking some laws.
In general, a parent is the guardian of a minor and has access to all information and decisions regarding that child. "The most important thing to note is that the Privacy Rule grants parents access to their children’s medical records." The primary exception is suspected abuse or neglect by that parent.
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:58 PM
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I am a doctor, used to take care of kids, and would have refused such a request as 'not medically necessary' unless there was legitimate concern about a possible sexual assault. If so I would have turned the case over to a trained sexual assault nurse examiner.
On the chance that the father believed this to be a valid medical procedure/test to determine if his underage daughter was sexually active, I could understand why he'd want it done. The fact that he would ask a doctor to do it (as opposed to checking it himself) makes me think it's the case.
My concern, however, is that it could be part of a pattern of abuse, or at least really poor parenting.
If a parent did ask you to do this, it seems like it could be a good opportunity to get the kid alone for a few minutes and ask her a few questions to determine if, perhaps, CPS needs to get involved.

I'm sure most doctors would decline to actually do it and hopefully explain why it wouldn't be useful even if they did check, and I'd hope that it's simply the request of a misinformed parent, but ISTM that it could be part of a bigger problem.

But, and I'm in no way defending any of it, I can certainly understand what a parent is going through when they're frustrated with their kid and, in this case, regarding being sexually active, at their wits end.

It reminds me of something I've heard many new parents say, and I know I've thought it at one point or another, "I would never shake my baby, but I understand why it happens'.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:29 PM
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Being poorly informed (ignorant?) is not necessarily the same as abusive / a bad parent.
If the request continues after a coherent explanation by a doctor why it's not necessary or useful - then yeah, sure. However as a simple request out of concern...
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:50 PM
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There are two issues, here. The first is that the father thinks that checking the hymen is a valid way of scientifically determining whether a girl has had sex. Ignorance about that point does not make one a bad parent.

The second and much bigger issue, however, is the father thinking that there's some need for a scientific way of determiinng whether his daughter has had sex. The usual way for determining that is to, you know, talk to her.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:57 PM
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There are two issues, here. The first is that the father thinks that checking the hymen is a valid way of scientifically determining whether a girl has had sex. Ignorance about that point does not make one a bad parent.

The second and much bigger issue, however, is the father thinking that there's some need for a scientific way of determiinng whether his daughter has had sex. The usual way for determining that is to, you know, talk to her.
Or, you know, mind his own business.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:55 PM
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Or, you know, mind his own business.
I'm not condoning this specific practice, but the goings on of a parent's minor child is their business. It's part (or all, really) of raising a kid.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:08 PM
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I'm reminded of the old joke that Ann-Margaret was the only actress with her hyphen intact.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:22 PM
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I'm not condoning this specific practice, but the goings on of a parent's minor child is their business. It's part (or all, really) of raising a kid.
Even minors should have a right to privacy with respect to their own bodies.

And any father who needs to know whether his daughter is a virgin is a sick fuck.

It's very different from a parent's duty to ensure that ēs child is safe, properly educated and knows when and how to ask for help in matters of the body.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:41 PM
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Even minors should have a right to privacy with respect to their own bodies.

And any father who needs to know whether his daughter is a virgin is a sick fuck.
I'll strongly disagree with that. If my 11 or 12 or 14 year old is sexually active, I'd like to know about it because it's something that needs to be discussed. She needs to understand that, even at 13ish, she can get pregnant. At any age, she can get an STD.
Is it none of my business if my 12 year old's sleeping with a teacher?
Even a high school kid may not fully understand that sleeping with their same aged SO is one thing, sleeping with a 40 year old is rape.
You're welcome to call me a sick fuck, but I'm not going to mind my own business when it comes to my minor child becoming sexually active.

Honestly, keeping this kind of stuff bottled up is why pedophiles can exist.

To be clear, I'm not asking her to tell me if she kissed someone for the first time or if she has feelings for someone or even if she's dating someone, but I think I'll still maintain that if my grade school aged kid is having sex, it's absolutely my business and not only doesn't make me a sick fuck, but rather a responsible and involved parent.

ETA, and I'm offended that you'd consider me a sick fuck for wanting to know if my kit is having sex.

Last edited by Joey P; 11-07-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:45 PM
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I can imagine a scenario of a divorced father concerned that say his underage daughter was being sexually abused by say a live-in boyfriend of his ex-wife, or maybe someone that was babysitting the child, or something and that could potentially be a younger child as well, and that might be a real reason to inquire with the doctor about examining the child, I don't know the exact process of how that would work in the real world, but at least there probably is a real scenario where it would be reasonable to request something like that. It wouldn't be a request for a virginity inspection per se but rather if sexual abuse has occurred.
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Last edited by pool; 11-07-2019 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:31 AM
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I'll strongly disagree with that. If my 11 or 12 or 14 year old is sexually active, I'd like to know about it because it's something that needs to be discussed. She needs to understand that, even at 13ish, she can get pregnant. At any age, she can get an STD.
Yes, whether or not your minor child of any gender is having sex is your business. However, dragging the kid to the doctor for a hymen inspection is not the way to go about it. As mentioned numerous times, the state of a woman's hymen proves nothing about her sex life. Hymens can be stretched/torn by sports, riding horses, and various other activities. If the girl masturbates this might happen. Plenty of sexual acts don't involve the vagina, or penetrating the vagina.

This focus on virginity and hymens seems archaic to me, valuing a girl's virginity over everything else.

And if TI did find out his daughter was no longer "intact"? What then? Is he going to assume she's a dirty slut sleeping around or is he going to ask if she was raped or molested? Would he disown his daughter if she isn't "pure" enough?

This is different than making sure your kid is informed about sex and STD's, has access to birth control, and knows there's an open door to come to you about what's going on in her/her life.

Quote:
You're welcome to call me a sick fuck, but I'm not going to mind my own business when it comes to my minor child becoming sexually active.
Yeah, but are you going to have yearly hymen inspections and insist on being in the room when the doctor is doing it? Would you ignore a medical doctor who tells you that you can't tell if a girl is virgin or not by examining her vagina?

Quote:
Honestly, keeping this kind of stuff bottled up is why pedophiles can exist.
Making it clear to a kid that dad won't take their word on thing but is going to haul them to the doctor once a year to inspect their genitalia for sexual activity doesn't strike me a scenario where the kid is likely to come to dad about being molested or raped. What message is being sent here?

Quote:
To be clear, I'm not asking her to tell me if she kissed someone for the first time or if she has feelings for someone or even if she's dating someone, but I think I'll still maintain that if my grade school aged kid is having sex, it's absolutely my business and not only doesn't make me a sick fuck, but rather a responsible and involved parent.
You won't ask her about her first kiss or her feelings about other people? WTF? You don't want the kid to tell you what's going on in her head? I thought you wanted to know what's going on with her?

Quote:
ETA, and I'm offended that you'd consider me a sick fuck for wanting to know if my kit is having sex.
I don't consider a parent a "sick fuck" or even a "creepy parent" for wanting to know if their kid is having sex. I do consider it bizarre to the point of creepy/sick to go about it by medical exams on their genitals. Exams which don't, actually, tell you whether or not the kid is having sex. THAT's the part that's creepy.

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Originally Posted by pool View Post
I can imagine a scenario of a divorced father concerned that say his underage daughter was being sexually abused by say a live-in boyfriend of his ex-wife, or maybe someone that was babysitting the child, or something and that could potentially be a younger child as well, and that might be a real reason to inquire with the doctor about examining the child, I don't know the exact process of how that would work in the real world, but at least there probably is a real scenario where it would be reasonable to request something like that. It wouldn't be a request for a virginity inspection per se but rather if sexual abuse has occurred.
Yes, that is a possible scenario. But you don't deal with that situation by taking the kid to the doctor and saying "inspect her hymen to see if she's still a virgin". You do it by taking the kid to the doctor, then taking the doctor aside and saying "I'm concerned that she's being sexually molested, can we check for that?" Because for that you need to check more than just the vagina, you're basically asking for a rape kit to be done which inspects more than just the vagina, and for the doctor to carefully question the kid. It means looking for STD's not just in the vagina but the rectum and mouth/throat as well.

If all a daddy wants is the hymen inspected then it's not about investigating a possible molestation, it's about controlling his daughter's sex life.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:13 AM
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I had a reply to several of the points raised here but it basically amounted to what Broomstick said........so...........yeah, that.
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 11-08-2019 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:37 AM
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I don't consider a parent a "sick fuck" or even a "creepy parent" for wanting to know if their kid is having sex. I do consider it bizarre to the point of creepy/sick to go about it by medical exams on their genitals. Exams which don't, actually, tell you whether or not the kid is having sex. THAT's the part that's creepy.
That's nice and all, but Joey P was only speaking to the sexually active part, and had already said they didn't condone the virginity testing part. And it was entirely over that first part that Acsenray had called him, and myself, and any parent* who would want to know if my minor kids started having sex, "sick fucks". So you're pretty much preaching to the converted there.

* Actually, he only called fathers that. I guess mothers can know if their daughters have started becoming sexually active without condemnation? And sons, what about them?
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:53 AM
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Actually, he only called fathers that. I guess mothers can know if their daughters have started becoming sexually active without condemnation? And sons, what about them?
In the pit thread that I started I don't think I made the point explicitly but my accusation of sexism/misogyny towards TI was certainly based on my assumption that he wouldn't apply that standard equally (it so rarely is)

I'd certainly extend my disapproval to any and all invasive medical virginity tests for boys and girls, carried out by any parent. The controlling behaviour exemplified by TI is wholly unjustified in my opinion. There are other far better ways of having conversations about sexual activity. My wife and I purposefully have never had separate discussions with our son (12) and daughter (14) and haven't imposed different expectations of behaviour either. There are the practicalities of the different risks of course but even those conversations have been couched in terms of "it is an issue for both of you".
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:27 AM
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I feel like you read a lot more into my post than what was actually there. Let me attempt to address a few of the things you said...

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Yes, whether or not your minor child of any gender is having sex is your business. However, dragging the kid to the doctor for a hymen inspection is not the way to go about it.
I didn't say that, in fact I specifically said I wouldn't do that and that the result of that 'test' would be meaningless.

Quote:
This focus on virginity and hymens seems archaic to me, valuing a girl's virginity over everything else.
Literally no one has said that anyone is valuing a girl's virginity over everything else. If you're suggesting that I said or implied that, I didn't and I'd prefer you not to decide what you think I'm thinking.

Quote:
And if TI did find out his daughter was no longer "intact"? What then? Is he going to assume she's a dirty slut sleeping around or is he going to ask if she was raped or molested? Would he disown his daughter if she isn't "pure" enough?
Seems like a whole other question. Questions to which, at least to me, you've already poisoned the well about. At least the few blurbs that I read simply stated that he had his daughter's hymen checked. Not that, if it was no longer in tact, she'd be a dirty slut. That's something you added to the story. Again, unless he said it somewhere, you've decided what you think he's thinking.

Quote:
Yeah, but are you going to have yearly hymen inspections and insist on being in the room when the doctor is doing it? Would you ignore a medical doctor who tells you that you can't tell if a girl is virgin or not by examining her vagina?
Huh? Ask TI, I specifically said I wouldn't.

Quote:
Making it clear to a kid that dad won't take their word on thing but is going to haul them to the doctor once a year to inspect their genitalia for sexual activity doesn't strike me a scenario where the kid is likely to come to dad about being molested or raped. What message is being sent here?
You should probably reread my post. I said it's my businesses to know if my minor kid is sexually active.
I'm not sure why you seem to think I wouldn't take her word for it. And, in any case, my comment was directed at ascenray's comment about it being none of my businesses.

Quote:
You won't ask her about her first kiss or her feelings about other people? WTF? You don't want the kid to tell you what's going on in her head? I thought you wanted to know what's going on with her?
Seriously, again, that's not what I said.
There's a big difference between 'I'm not going to ask her about...' and 'I'm not asking her to tell me about...'
You're saying that I'd never ask her if she's had her first kiss or if she's dating someone. I said as part of a bigger point, that you seemed to have addressed out of context, that I'm not asking her to proactively come and inform me that she's had her first kiss etc.

Quote:
If all a daddy wants is the hymen inspected then it's not about investigating a possible molestation, it's about controlling his daughter's sex life.
Dear god, I'm just going to assume that wasn't addressed at me.


In short, broomstick, if this is what you got from my post, either I typed it poorly or you read it wrong. I'm not going to spend the next two days addressing the minutia of everything I typed in quickly written post. So this is as far as I'll go with it. Hopefully it clears everything up.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:23 PM
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I think part of the problem here is that we more forms of the word "you" in the English language. Most of my post was a "general you", not a "specific you".

And the last paragraph you took offense at was in reference to a quote by pool, not you-specifically-Joey-P. Really. Go back and look at that post again. The quote attribution is very clearly not you, Joey P. So calm down.
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Old 11-09-2019, 03:56 AM
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FWIW Broomstick, that was exactly how I took it. Very much at the "general you". Joey P, if you are bothered that it might seem like an attack on you then at least this one poster didn't read it that way.
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Old 11-09-2019, 05:32 AM
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I think part of the problem here is that we more forms of the word "you" in the English language. Most of my post was a "general you", not a "specific you".
That would be more convincing if you didn't keep, you know, quoting him...
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:01 AM
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I think this is a weird ass thing to be pedantic/devil's advocate about. This isn't just "creepy", it's horrifying. At some point, he told his daughter "we have to get you checked out, to make sure you aren't lying to me about fucking guys". At some point, he looked past his daughter, like she was a piece of meat, and said to the doctor "I want you to check her out, make sure she hasn't been fucking guys", and they must have had a conversation about it. At some point--several points, apparently, she was up in the stirrups, splayed for a strange man, tense and anxious, with her dad in the room, watching her as she waited for the doctor to give her dad a verdict on her purity. Can you imagine the horror? The fear, that the doctor might find something, tell your dad right there? What would happen then?

To react to this with 'I in no way approve of his methods but I get his motive" is baffling. I assume it's rooted in not really thinking through just how awful this is.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:11 AM
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I assume it is also some of those people never having been flat on their back, their feet in stirrups with a stranger poking around their genitals. The fact that the parent that put them there is disapproving of them having sex just adds to it.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:39 AM
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...

To be clear, I'm not asking her to tell me if she kissed someone for the first time or if she has feelings for someone or even if she's dating someone, but I think I'll still maintain that if my grade school aged kid is having sex, it's absolutely my business and not only doesn't make me a sick fuck, but rather a responsible and involved parent.

ETA, and I'm offended that you'd consider me a sick fuck for wanting to know if my kit is having sex.
It appears to me that you have parenting backwards. Her emotional state and health and maturity as it evolves is something the parent should know about and the child should be open to discussing. Openness to discuss 'stranger danger' is part of that can can help in warding off pervs. Knowing if the child had sex after the fact is already too late and one should have picked up the trend and guided the child way before.

Also I get what some are saying, that it is not medically possible to tell from such a exam, but is there enough of a trend that it does provide probabilistic evidence of having/not having sex. Is the test so wrong in terms of accuracy that no patterns can be established.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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I assume it is also some of those people never having been flat on their back, their feet in stirrups with a stranger poking around their genitals. The fact that the parent that put them there is disapproving of them having sex just adds to it.
It's also worth noting that girls don't generally have a pelvic exam until they are 18, unless there is a reason. It's not a matter of asking the doctor to "check" as part of a normal exam---this is a whole extra invasive exam, annually, for no reason.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:52 AM
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Also I get what some are saying, that it is not medically possible to tell from such a exam, but is there enough of a trend that it does provide probabilistic evidence of having/not having sex. Is the test so wrong in terms of accuracy that no patterns can be established.
No, it's not. Even if the "freshness seal" hymen of myth really existed, it would only tell you about penetration--not with what. And it wouldn't tell you about all the other types of sexual activity that are possible.

But it doesn't even tell you that. "Losing it" doesn't leave this indelible, profound stamp on a woman's body, and the paradigm that women's bodies--and women's natures--work this way is incredibly toxic.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:55 AM
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Also I get what some are saying, that it is not medically possible to tell from such a exam, but is there enough of a trend that it does provide probabilistic evidence of having/not having sex. Is the test so wrong in terms of accuracy that no patterns can be established.
It was unreliable in medieval times when the post-nuptial bedsheets where displayed out the window the following morning - what, you think women didn't have work-arounds?

Nowadays, with girls encouraged to be in sports and otherwise active, and access to information on how to masturbate readily accessible to anyone with a smartphone (or a friend with one) it's even more unreliable.

No doubt a LOT of women suffered terrible penalties for not being virgin enough on a wedding night, even though they actually were virgin, throughout history.

One of the "justifications" given for female genital mutilation is that turning a woman's crotch into a Barbie-doll crotch as a living chastity belt provided incontrovertible proof of virginity (of her vagina - it doesn't eliminate anal or oral rape but I suppose in those societies that wasn't so important), more than than the state of a hymen.

TL: DR no, it's not nearly as reliable a test as commonly supposed.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:57 AM
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It's also worth noting that girls don't generally have a pelvic exam until they are 18, unless there is a reason. It's not a matter of asking the doctor to "check" as part of a normal exam---this is a whole extra invasive exam, annually, for no reason.
Sexually activity (whether voluntary or not) would, actually, be a reason for a pelvic exam prior to the age of 18, as women are supposed to have one when they start having sex. So "I think my daughter is having sex" might be a reason to do one, though "I want to be sure my daughter is still virgin, can you check her hymen" is probably not the best opening line.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:32 AM
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It appears to me that you have parenting backwards.
I'm going to stop you right there.
Let's just leave your feelings about my parenting out of this. There's no reason to insult me here.

Last edited by Joey P; 11-09-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:23 AM
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Sexually activity (whether voluntary or not) would, actually, be a reason for a pelvic exam prior to the age of 18, as women are supposed to have one when they start having sex. So "I think my daughter is having sex" might be a reason to do one, though "I want to be sure my daughter is still virgin, can you check her hymen" is probably not the best opening line.
I disagree. You don't take your daughter to the doctor and say "I think she might be having sex, so can you check under the hood". You might take your daughter to the doctor and say "I think she might be having sex, so you two have a conversation about it".

I mean, if a 16 year old having her annual physical with her pediatrician and says "I am sexually active", does that actually call for a pelvic right then and there? These sites (siteq and site 2)seems to suggest that the general recommendation is for pelvic exams to start is 21, and "sexual activity" isn't listed as a reason to have one earlier. Maybe back in the day that was the recommendation, but it seems like that was more rooted in the "losing your virginity is a liminal experience" paradigm than actual science.
  #34  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:58 AM
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To react to this with 'I in no way approve of his methods but I get his motive" is baffling.
I'm certainly not doing that. I just think characterizing all interest in your child's sexual health as perverse is an over-reaction.
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:54 AM
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Deleted because I don’t want to beat a dead horse

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  #36  
Old 11-09-2019, 11:00 AM
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Nor is evidence she is has a hymen in any way an answer to the question of whether she's been sexually assaulted, unless you buy into a sorta 19th c. fixation that whether or not a victim was penetrated vaginally is the key element. That's like a torrid novel: as long as the veil is not torn, all is not lost! Will the hero get there in time?
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:33 AM
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Here’s the decision path in Canadian jurisdictions:

Is the procedure medically necessary?

If not, then the physician does not have to perform the procedure.

Is the physician competent and licenced to perform a gynecological exam?

If so, then is there a public law that prohibits virginity tests?

If not (presently here is no such law in Canada), then is there a professional regulation by the physician’s governing body that prohibits virginity tests (for example, in Québec there is a prohibition, but in Ontario there is not)?

If not, then the physician may perform the procedure, provided there is consent by the patient, or if the patient is not capable of consenting, then by a substitute decision maker (capacity can be determined by a consent and capacity tribunal or a court of appropriate jurisdiction; duress voids consent; for children age alone is usually not determinative).

I can’t speak for other provinces, but here in Ontario, even if consent is given for the procedure on the child, that consent does not necessarily prevent a child with sufficient capacity from refusing to consent to the doctor disclosing to the parent or anyone else any or all of the child’s personal health information such as the virginity test result. (Ontario’s legislation on this is Milo Minderbinder complex, but well thought out if you can figure it out.)

Beyond the strict legalities as set out above, what makes this issue interesting is that it brings human rights into play from two directions.

Virginity tests are part of the subjugation of women, so virginity tests are frowned upon from a human rights perspective, and for some people (such as myself) virginity tests are considered to be child abuse.

By the same token, however, honour killings and honour based domestic abuse are problems. A physician refusing to perform a could put a patient at risk of emotional abuse, physical abuse, or death by the hands of her family.

I am of the opinion that virginity tests should be banned by the various colleges of physicians and surgeons across Canada based on the human rights issues, and that provincial and territorial governments should, despite physician-patient confidentiality, mandate reporting of requests for virginity tests to child protection authorities to try to mitigate the child abuse leading to honour killings.
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  #38  
Old 11-09-2019, 11:45 AM
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I felt such despair as I read the article in the OP. Ditto the other day when I read about how astrology is supposedly making a comeback. And then there was the article about the challenges people face when trying to leave insular religious groups. And the article about literal witch hunts in Nepal...

Sometimes it feels like we’re still in the Dark Ages. I can’t believe these are the things that are still happening.
  #39  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:04 PM
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I'm not condoning this specific practice, but the goings on of a parent's minor child is their business. It's part (or all, really) of raising a kid.
In the matter at hand, the child is 18. The father and daughters are residents of Georgia (fortunately not Virginia) where the age of majority is 18 (or less for VD or pregnancy medical treatment).

The father is a misogynist. "Not to be sexist but, I can’t vote for the leader of the free world to be a woman. . . . I just know that women make rash decisions emotionally – they make very permanent, cemented decisions – and then later, it’s kind of like it didn’t happen, or they didn’t mean for it to happen. And I sure would hate to just set off a nuke. [Other leaders] will not be able to negotiate the right kinds of foreign policy; the world ain’t ready yet. I think you might be able to [get] the Loch Ness Monster elected before you could [get a woman]."

The father has done jail time for trying to purchase machine guns, and had repeatedly been in conflict with the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.I.#2...ntial_election

As far as his adult daughter's virginity testing goes, the father uses it to publicize himself internationally. I can't see how putting his daughter's hymen up for public discussion is in any way in her best interests.
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Last edited by Muffin; 11-09-2019 at 12:09 PM.
  #40  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
That's nice and all, but Joey P was only speaking to the sexually active part, and had already said they didn't condone the virginity testing part. And it was entirely over that first part that Acsenray had called him, and myself, and any parent* who would want to know if my minor kids started having sex, "sick fucks". So you're pretty much preaching to the converted there.

* Actually, he only called fathers that. I guess mothers can know if their daughters have started becoming sexually active without condemnation? And sons, what about them?
I put it in terms of fathers and daughters because that’s how it is expressed in our society. Fathers like T.I. express the idea that as fathers they are the guardians of their daughters’ chastity. If anyone were to go to these lengths to ensure their sons’ chastity we would be speaking in those terms.

And I stick to my earlier statement — any father who feels he must be certain by any means necessary that his daughter has never had anything up her vagina is a sick fuck.

Note what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that parents’ shouldn’t be aware whether their minor children are sexually active or that they are being molested or whether they are aware of and have access to contraception and the means of avoiding STDs.

It’s specifically the concept of female virginity and the concept of girls not being vaginally penetrated. The obsession with female virginity and penetration in the part of “old fashioned” fathers is sick.

Virginity, first of all, is a made up concept. It has no biological validity. Second, the idea that a girl’s experience of vaginal penetration is anyone else’s concern except hers, especially her father’s, is sick.

You sometimes still hear of men “joking” about threatening their daughters’ dates or boyfriends or taking other action to ensure their daughters’ chastity. Those aren’t jokes to me. They’re evidence of a sick social construct.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 11-09-2019 at 12:28 PM.
  #41  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
In the matter at hand, the child is 18. The father and daughters are residents of Georgia (fortunately not Virginia) where the age of majority is 18 (or less for VD or pregnancy medical treatment).
She's an adult now, but he had apparently been doing it for years. Not that that makes it okay, but she was a minor when he started doing this.

Quote:
As far as his adult daughter's virginity testing goes, the father uses it to publicize himself internationally. I can't see how putting his daughter's hymen up for public discussion is in any way in her best interests.
I agree, it was likely for publicity, otherwise he wouldn't have discussed it in public. It probably happens a lot more often (by other misinformed parents), you just don't hear about it because your neighbor isn't announcing it to the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
And I stick to my earlier statement — any father who feels he must be certain by any means necessary that his daughter has never had anything up her vagina is a sick fuck.
Your earlier statement was "And any father who needs to know whether his daughter is a virgin is a sick fuck.", it was also directed, at least in part, at me.


Quote:
Note what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that parents’ shouldn’t be aware whether their minor children are sexually active or that they are being molested or whether they are aware of and have access to contraception and the means of avoiding STDs.
No, it's literally exactly what you were saying. You said, and I quote "Or, you know, mind his own business" and "Even minors should have a right to privacy with respect to their own bodies."

Which is it? Should parent's mind their own business or are you "not saying that parents’ shouldn’t be aware whether their minor children are sexually active"?
  #42  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post

No, it's literally exactly what you were saying. You said, and I quote "Or, you know, mind his own business" and "Even minors should have a right to privacy with respect to their own bodies."

Which is it? Should parent's mind their own business or are you "not saying that parents’ shouldn’t be aware whether their minor children are sexually active"?
There's a difference between needing to know if your child is sexually active and hyper-focusing on vaginal penetration. I'd ask my child if they were sexually active. I'd offer advice and set age-appropriate boundaries. I would not ask them exactly which acts they have participated in. I cannot see why I would ever need to know whether or not any particular act has already occurred.

Jesus, my son WAS molested and I didn't ask probing questions. I asked enough to understand the scope of what had occurred so that I could report it, and then I backed off. He was six and I didn't feel like I had the right to know any more detail than what he was comfortable sharing beyond what I absolutely needed to know to keep him safe.

This isn't/wasn't about monitoring her for unsafe sexual activity. This was about a father fetishizing female virginity as a sacred status. Trying to spin it, to distort it into something that was "bad means to a good end" is ridiculous.
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Old 11-09-2019, 02:59 PM
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I suppose he's planning to display his daughter's wedding night bedsheets from her bedroom window ledge, and goddammit, they better be bloody!
  #44  
Old 11-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I disagree....[snip]...I mean, if a 16 year old having her annual physical with her pediatrician and says "I am sexually active", does that actually call for a pelvic right then and there?...[snip]....Maybe back in the day that was the recommendation, but it seems like that was more rooted in the "losing your virginity is a liminal experience" paradigm than actual science.
Way back in the late paleolithic when I was a teen around about the time I was 14 the docs doing my school physicals started taking me aside and asking me if I was having sex, saying that if I did I would need to start going to a gynecologist to either get birth control or a regular check for STD's or both, and if I was concerned about how my parents would react he could tell me how to get that done on my own because my health was more important than a fear of how the adults in my life might react. There was no discussion of hymens, and they would mention that sex included more than just a penis in a vagina. Which at the time certainly didn't strike me as a "virginity check" but more a rational approach to sexuality. It still does.

If someone is sexually active at 14 or 15 then waiting until 21 to start worrying about reproductive health is waiting too late. Maybe things have changed, but I heard the "wait until 21" was for sexually INactive girls.
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:32 PM
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Your earlier statement was "And any father who needs to know whether his daughter is a virgin is a sick fuck.", it was also directed, at least in part, at me.
That's not how I read it. There is a big difference between "being aware" and "needing to know." The former implies you were reasonable, maybe just asking. The latter implies that you need to have definitive proof.

The latter is fucked up. The former is not. It's reasonable to want to know. It is reasonable to ask, so you can help your kid navigate this complex area of life. It's not reasonable to need to know, as that suggests controlling behavior.

TI needed to know, and that is exactly shows he is controlling, which suggests that he is abusive (in other ways)--just like you said.
  #46  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Way back in the late paleolithic when I was a teen around about the time I was 14 the docs doing my school physicals started taking me aside and asking me if I was having sex, saying that if I did I would need to start going to a gynecologist to either get birth control or a regular check for STD's or both, and if I was concerned about how my parents would react he could tell me how to get that done on my own because my health was more important than a fear of how the adults in my life might react. There was no discussion of hymens, and they would mention that sex included more than just a penis in a vagina. Which at the time certainly didn't strike me as a "virginity check" but more a rational approach to sexuality. It still does.

If someone is sexually active at 14 or 15 then waiting until 21 to start worrying about reproductive health is waiting too late. Maybe things have changed, but I heard the "wait until 21" was for sexually INactive girls.
I don't know that a pelvic exam is a requirement for "worrying about your reproductive health". Most STI tests can be done with a urine sample. You don't need to look at someone's genitals to prescribe BC, or give them information about other methods. Pap smears aren't recommended for anyone before 21. If there aren't any problems--pain, bleeding, whatever--it doesn't appear that a pelvic exam has any real purpose. It doesn't make any sense that if you've fucked a guy a doctor needs to take a look at your parts, just in case. Just in case what?
  #47  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Way back in the late paleolithic when I was a teen around about the time I was 14 the docs doing my school physicals started taking me aside and asking me if I was having sex, saying that if I did I would need to start going to a gynecologist to either get birth control or a regular check for STD's or both, and if I was concerned about how my parents would react he could tell me how to get that done on my own because my health was more important than a fear of how the adults in my life might react. There was no discussion of hymens, and they would mention that sex included more than just a penis in a vagina. Which at the time certainly didn't strike me as a "virginity check" but more a rational approach to sexuality. It still does.

If someone is sexually active at 14 or 15 then waiting until 21 to start worrying about reproductive health is waiting too late. Maybe things have changed, but I heard the "wait until 21" was for sexually INactive girls.
No prescribed birth control of any kind should be given to a woman of any age without a Pap smear and pelvic exam done beforehand. And Broomstick, you are correct that a woman who is not sexually active, whether by choice or circumstance, can probably wait until she is 21 for her first pelvic exam, but 18 is better.

And it has always boggled my mind that women who engage in casual sex with multiple partners can still have panic attacks over pelvic exams, whether done by a male or female doctor. It's as sexual as the dentist examining your teeth.
  #48  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
No prescribed birth control of any kind should be given to a woman of any age without a Pap smear and pelvic exam done beforehand.
Why?

Quote:
And Broomstick, you are correct that a woman who is not sexually active, whether by choice or circumstance, can probably wait until she is 21 for her first pelvic exam, but 18 is better.
Why?

Quote:
And it has always boggled my mind that women who engage in casual sex with multiple partners can still have panic attacks over pelvic exams, whether done by a male or female doctor. It's as sexual as the dentist examining your teeth.
Look, I have zero bodily modesty. Had everything reproductive technology has to offer me, and it was never a deal for me. But I am sure as hell not going to judge other women for being bothered, and I am especially not going to decide that a woman who has had multiple sexual partners is somehow less worthy to have concerns over who touches her.

Look, tying access to BC and STI testing having additional medical procedures done--medical procedures that are expensive and invasive--is a relic of an incredibly paternalistic system that feels free to reduce women's choices "for their own good".
  #49  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:28 PM
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Look, here are the current recommendations by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists:
Quote:
  • Pelvic examinations should be performed when indicated by medical history or symptoms.
  • Based on the current limited data on potential benefits and harms and expert opinion, the decision to perform a pelvic examination should be a shared decision between the patient and her obstetrician–gynecologist or other gynecologic care provider.
  • A limited number of studies have evaluated the benefits and harms of a screening pelvic examination for detection of ovarian cancer, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and genital herpes. Data from these studies are inadequate to support a recommendation for or against performing a routine screening pelvic examination among asymptomatic, nonpregnant women who are not at increased risk of any specific gynecologic condition. Data on its effectiveness for screening for other gynecologic conditions are lacking.
  • Women with current or a history of cervical dysplasia, gynecologic malignancy, or in utero diethylstilbestrol exposure should be screened and managed according to guidelines specific to those gynecologic conditions.
  • After reviewing risks and benefits, the pelvic examination also may be performed if a woman expresses a preference for the examination.
  • Regardless of whether a pelvic examination is performed, a woman should see her obstetrician–gynecologist at least once a year for well-woman care.
  • A pelvic examination is not necessary before initiating or prescribing contraception, other than an intrauterine device, or to screen for sexually transmitted infections.
Bolding mine. There's no reason for a pelvic exam if you have no symptoms. The idea that once you've had sex you need to be "checked out" is an artifact of the whole "becoming a woman" myth. The insistence on an pointless, invasive exam before you can get medical care that you need hurts women.
  #50  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:33 PM
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I don't know that a pelvic exam is a requirement for "worrying about your reproductive health".
I did not, in fact, say, "pelvic exam", I said a visit to a gynecologist. At which point a pelvic exam might be done, or might not - I'm not a gynecologist so it's not the sort of decision I feel qualified to make.

Quote:
Most STI tests can be done with a urine sample. You don't need to look at someone's genitals to prescribe BC, or give them information about other methods.
You do if you're fitting a diaphragm or IUD - or are you committing the common flawed assumption that birth control begins and ends with condoms and The Pill and nothing else? Even so, birth control pills shouldn't be handed out like candy - there needs to be a physical exam AND a history taken. Some women really shouldn't take hormonal birth control.

Quote:
Pap smears aren't recommended for anyone before 21.
Not normally, no, but if there are genital warts from an early age (because being raped or molested as a youngster can lead to that) or possibly some other issue that might be warranted.

Quote:
If there aren't any problems--pain, bleeding, whatever--it doesn't appear that a pelvic exam has any real purpose. It doesn't make any sense that if you've fucked a guy a doctor needs to take a look at your parts, just in case. Just in case what?
Well, hell, I don't know, I'm not the one who suggested it for the average teenager. If there's some indication of an abnormality, yes, definitely it might be called for. If a doctor wanted a (hypothetical) daughter of mine to get a pelvic exam before age 21 I'd certainly ask why the doctor thought she needed one, but I would at least listen before ruling it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
No prescribed birth control of any kind should be given to a woman of any age without a Pap smear and pelvic exam done beforehand. And Broomstick, you are correct that a woman who is not sexually active, whether by choice or circumstance, can probably wait until she is 21 for her first pelvic exam, but 18 is better.

And it has always boggled my mind that women who engage in casual sex with multiple partners can still have panic attacks over pelvic exams, whether done by a male or female doctor. It's as sexual as the dentist examining your teeth.
Yeah, sort of boggles my mind, too. They are nothing I'd do for fun, every single one I've ever had was highly professional and very clinical, and I've never felt the least bit violated or traumatized and always the very opposite of sexy.

Now, someone who did have abuse or rape or something horrific in their past, I can understand those folks might have issues (or might not), but women who've never been mistreated in that way, who have had sex with multiple partners? But people are funny about doctors.
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