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  #101  
Old 01-25-2018, 08:08 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
If you're looking for a good cheese danish, head on down to the Oakmont Bakery, dude.
I have a client at work who lives in New Ken and brings a box of treats from Oakmont Bakery whenever she stops in.

Along the lines of totin' chips, maybe medical marijuana cards could be replaced with tokin' chips. Mmmmmm, French onion dip.
  #102  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:58 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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This is a weird middle ground that solves a non-problem; schools traditionally didn't worry about pocketknives, and some still don't (or have something like 'anything under 3" is OK' as a rule). I don't see that the 'totin chip' idea really helps with either major philosophy that people follow ('no knives' or 'pocket knives are no big deal'), I don't think that 'pocket knives are really dangerous but we need kids to have them in school' is a thing that very many people actually push for, and it doesn't work as a compromise position. For schools that don't want kids to have pocketknives, whether for liability reasons, because their board or state thinks "OMG it's a weapon", or they just don't like them, they simply don't want them in school. They have no reason to move to a partial ban, because there isn't some compelling need for pocket knives in school; adding this system runs counter to their goal. For schools that don't think it's a big deal, they can follow tradition and ditch any rules against pocket knives entirely and treat them as no big deal. Adding a whole special system that teachers need to track and be trained on and treating pocket knives as something that needs Special Procedures runs counter to their goal of treating knives like an ordinary tool that they're not worried about.
  #103  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:15 AM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
For those of you who didn't have pocket knives in school, did you ever find yourself in a situation where the lack of one was a major problem? I certainly don't recall one.
Just this morning I asked my son if he wanted to take an orange with him for lunch and he said he couldn't peel it. I said "just bring a kni... oh, well, yogurt it is, then."
  #104  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:41 AM
steronz steronz is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Just this morning I asked my son if he wanted to take an orange with him for lunch and he said he couldn't peel it. I said "just bring a kni... oh, well, yogurt it is, then."
How is that different from any other food item that you prepare at home? Peel it and throw it in a little container or a baggie.
  #105  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:47 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Just this morning I asked my son if he wanted to take an orange with him for lunch and he said he couldn't peel it. I said "just bring a kni... oh, well, yogurt it is, then."
This is the sort of things my students say to me, and I scowl at them, and say, "So, how are you going to solve this problem?"

1) Learn to peel an orange.
2) Slice it at home and put it in a bag.
3) Take a different fruit.
4) Take the yogurt.
5) ?? YOU DECIDE

We're not talking major problems here.
  #106  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:49 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Start it with your teeth, then use your fingernails. It isn't hard.

Or use a loose-rind citrus, like a clementine.
  #107  
Old 01-25-2018, 12:03 PM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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Yeah, I've never had a problem peeling an orange with my hands, fingernails or no, but apparently he does. It was right as we were walking out the door, so I didn't have time to prepare it for him. I realize now that the post I replied to was talking about major problems and peeling an orange isn't one. But still, it's one of many instances where a small knife would have been helpful in school. Certainly there are other ways to solve that particular problem, but there are many ways to solve most problems. That doesn't mean a knife isn't still quite handy, even if you can peel your food with your teeth, and clean your shoes with a stick, and open envelopes with your fingers, and cut loose threads with scissors, etc.
  #108  
Old 01-25-2018, 01:23 PM
andros andros is offline
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That doesn't mean a knife isn't still quite handy, even if you can [use other tools]
I'm not sure that anyone really disputes that.
  #109  
Old 01-25-2018, 01:25 PM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Just this morning I asked my son if he wanted to take an orange with him for lunch and he said he couldn't peel it. I said "just bring a kni... oh, well, yogurt it is, then."
Use a plastic knife from the cafeteria?
  #110  
Old 01-25-2018, 01:33 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
This is the sort of things my students say to me, and I scowl at them, and say, "So, how are you going to solve this problem?"

1) Learn to peel an orange.
2) Slice it at home and put it in a bag.
3) Take a different fruit.
4) Take the yogurt.
5) ?? YOU DECIDE

We're not talking major problems here.
Depending on the age of the child that might, in fact, be some major decision making. Which is all the more reason to get them started. Kids need problem-solving skills and this is just the sort of thing that helps them develop those skills.
  #111  
Old 01-25-2018, 02:15 PM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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For whatever it's worth, draconian zero-tolerance policies seem more the exception than the rule. A kid wouldn't be disciplined at my school if they plausibly had a knife on them they forgot about. And a first grader brought a loaded gun to my son's elementary school a few years ago (before he was there) and they didn't discipline her at all, because she had no idea what it was. They called the cops to investigate the home, of course, and I imagine there were criminal charges. So while I am sure there are over-zealous administrators out there penalizing boys for making guns out of sticks, it's not inevitable.
  #112  
Old 01-25-2018, 02:36 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
Use a plastic knife from the cafeteria?
Spring for a quartet of these?

Hell, I have a half-dozen or so of them in my desk to loan to kids eating lunch in my room.

Last edited by silenus; 01-25-2018 at 02:37 PM.
  #113  
Old 01-25-2018, 02:54 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Yeah, I've never had a problem peeling an orange with my hands, fingernails or no, but apparently he does. It was right as we were walking out the door, so I didn't have time to prepare it for him.
I now see five solutions:
1) Learn to peel an orange.
2) Slice it at home and put it in a bag.
3) Take a different fruit.
4) Take the yogurt.
5) Change the national culture around bringing knives to school, obtain a training for kids to use knives, set up a "totin' chip" structure, and make sure your kid is leaving the house with a totin' chip and a knife.

I woulda taken the yogurt.
  #114  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:04 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
For whatever it's worth, draconian zero-tolerance policies seem more the exception than the rule. A kid wouldn't be disciplined at my school if they plausibly had a knife on them they forgot about. And a first grader brought a loaded gun to my son's elementary school a few years ago (before he was there) and they didn't discipline her at all, because she had no idea what it was. They called the cops to investigate the home, of course, and I imagine there were criminal charges. So while I am sure there are over-zealous administrators out there penalizing boys for making guns out of sticks, it's not inevitable.
Draconian they may be, but about 75% of schools still have zero-tolerance policies. Does your son attend a private school? Public schools must comply with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1994, which mandates a one-year expulsion of students bringing guns to school, no exceptions (hence the zero in zero tolerance). Private schools don't receive federal funds, so have a lot more latitude.
  #115  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:15 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Draconian they may be, but about 75% of schools still have zero-tolerance policies. Does your son attend a private school? Public schools must comply with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1994, which mandates a one-year expulsion of students bringing guns to school, no exceptions (hence the zero in zero tolerance). Private schools don't receive federal funds, so have a lot more latitude.
Do you have a cite for this? Not saying you're wrong, but this is the Straight Dope, and I gotta ask.
  #116  
Old 01-25-2018, 07:08 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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Darn, I meant to include the cite but forgot. The 75% figure is for general Zero Tolerance policies, including drugs. If you're looking at ZTP's for weapons other than firearms, it's 91%. There are several cites for the 75% figure, so here's one that gives the stats for weapons and drugs.
  #117  
Old 01-25-2018, 08:12 PM
Derleth Derleth is online now
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
This is the sort of things my students say to me, and I scowl at them, and say, "So, how are you going to solve this problem?"

1) Learn to peel an orange.
2) Slice it at home and put it in a bag.
3) Take a different fruit.
4) Take the yogurt.
5) ?? YOU DECIDE

We're not talking major problems here.
You know, I honestly can't remember having knives at my high school cafeteria, but I also can't remember not having them. Same with grade school.

Besides, I've always used a spoon to peel oranges. Not that it really matters, I suppose.

A meandering, go-nowhere post in a meandering, go-nowhere thread.
  #118  
Old 01-25-2018, 08:49 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Darn, I meant to include the cite but forgot. The 75% figure is for general Zero Tolerance policies, including drugs. If you're looking at ZTP's for weapons other than firearms, it's 91%. There are several cites for the 75% figure, so here's one that gives the stats for weapons and drugs.
Okay, but looking at the original source, the most recent direct cite is 17 years old. The reason I asked is because I thought these policies had fallen out of favor. I've been poking around, and I'm not finding more recent stats. This article, from 2015, discusses the general move away from zero tolerance.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 01-25-2018 at 08:50 PM.
  #119  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:16 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
The burden of making a compelling case should be on those wishing to ban them
It isn't and shouldn't be. There's simply no critical reason that a school kid must have a knife in school. All those things mentioned in this thread are problems that are easily solved—absent any undue burden—without letting kids carry their own knives. There is simply no problem that demands to be solved by permitting kids to possess personal knives.
  #120  
Old 01-25-2018, 09:27 PM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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I know my son's school is public and I know the student had a real loaded gun . . .That part was in the paper. I was told by the faculty she wasn't punished and that they treated it as a sign of potential abuse/neglect, not an infraction. . I suppose that part could be a lie, but why would they cover up an expulsion?
  #121  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:34 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I know my son's school is public and I know the student had a real loaded gun . . .That part was in the paper. I was told by the faculty she wasn't punished and that they treated it as a sign of potential abuse/neglect, not an infraction. . I suppose that part could be a lie, but why would they cover up an expulsion?
I don't see how they could cover it up even if they would. The federal law is pretty inflexible. I can only guess is your son's school decided it was better risk tangling with the feds than to expel such a young kid.
  #122  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:58 PM
Paul in Qatar Paul in Qatar is offline
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I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad.
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  #123  
Old 01-26-2018, 04:49 AM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Okay, but looking at the original source, the most recent direct cite is 17 years old. The reason I asked is because I thought these policies had fallen out of favor. I've been poking around, and I'm not finding more recent stats. This article, from 2015, discusses the general move away from zero tolerance.
I can't access the article, as I've used up all my NYT free articles for January. If the NYT article you cited has more recent figures from the U.S. Dept. of Education, or if some other site does, I'd appreciate knowing. Every other site, including the U.S. Dept. of Education site, uses the 1998 figures. I take this to mean there hasn't been a comprehensive survey done since 1998. It'd be great if the USDE undertook another one.

I'm aware of the problems with Zero Tolerance policies and the fact that some schools are starting to move away from them, a change I welcome; however, I'd be reluctant to accept that most schools no longer have Zero Tolerance policies unless there's data that shows that. A quick perusal of online handbooks from several school districts in the state where I now live as well as a few from the state where I used to live all continue to have Zero Tolerance Policies for weapons, guns and otherwise--which proves little but convinces me the alternatives have yet to be adopted by the majority of schools.
  #124  
Old 01-26-2018, 06:46 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
I can't access the article, as I've used up all my NYT free articles for January. If the NYT article you cited has more recent figures from the U.S. Dept. of Education, or if some other site does, I'd appreciate knowing. Every other site, including the U.S. Dept. of Education site, uses the 1998 figures. I take this to mean there hasn't been a comprehensive survey done since 1998. It'd be great if the USDE undertook another one.
Yeah, it doesn't give new figures, and like I said, I had trouble finding stats. I do know that the big educational movement now is AWAY from the use of suspensions and expulsions. How that intersects with weaponry? I'm having trouble finding out.
  #125  
Old 01-26-2018, 07:36 AM
TheMightyFro TheMightyFro is offline
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At the school I work in, we have students use scissors all the time. A knife really doesn't suit any of the tasks we expect our students to accomplish.

Also, why would you want to put knives in the hands of children, which seems far more likely to cause problems than solve them? I mean, children in general are known far more than adults to have poor impulse control. If they want to use a knife so bad, join the scouts, or use one at home. Problem solved; if one even existed...
  #126  
Old 01-26-2018, 09:41 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Draconian they may be, but about 75% of schools still have zero-tolerance policies. Does your son attend a private school? Public schools must comply with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1994, which mandates a one-year expulsion of students bringing guns to school, no exceptions (hence the zero in zero tolerance). Private schools don't receive federal funds, so have a lot more latitude.
This is simply not true; the 1994 law actually does not mandate a one-year explusion, in fact it does the opposite. It requires that the state law have a one-year expulsion as default, but also that it has an exception where the chief administering officer of the local educational agency can modify the requirement on a case-by-case basis. If a state did like you said and mandated "no exceptions", they would be in violation of the law and ineligible for federal funding.

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Originally Posted by https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/7961
Each State receiving Federal funds under any subchapter of this chapter shall have in effect a State law requiring local educational agencies to expel from school for a period of not less than 1 year a student who is determined to have brought a firearm to a school, or to have possessed a firearm at a school, under the jurisdiction of local educational agencies in that State, except that such State law shall allow the chief administering officer of a local educational agency to modify such expulsion requirement for a student on a case-by-case basis if such modification is in writing.
  #127  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:16 AM
andros andros is offline
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I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad.
What's sad about people not knowing how to use a tool for which they have no use?

The anderling at 17 doesn't know how to drive an automobile with a manual transmission. Similarly sad? He thinks it's bizarre that I don't know how to root my phone. Sad?
  #128  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:42 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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LHoD, I'm curious: how do you think your school would react to a 1st grader with a loaded gun? I heard two versions of the story--one, that she brought the gun to show her teacher, and the other, that a parent had put the gun in her backpack to hide it and then forgot it and the girl didn't even know it was there. I don't know that it makes any difference. I was really impressed with the school: it's a largely-minority, title 1 school, so it wasn't a matters of "these rules aren't for nice white kids!" or anything. I was really impressed, honestly.

A few years ago, at a school I taught at, we had a kid legitimately accidently taze a teachers. A second kid gave him the taser and told him it was a joke buzzer type thing. It was instead a pretty powerful device, the strongest you can buy in Texas as a non-LEO. Everyone who knew the kids involved believed the story: this was a good kid and he had a great relationship with the teacher. No way it was intentional. Anyway, if I recall correctly they had to suspend the kid for 3 days, but that was as far as it went. And this is in a huge urban district.
  #129  
Old 01-26-2018, 11:38 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
LHoD, I'm curious: how do you think your school would react to a 1st grader with a loaded gun? I heard two versions of the story--one, that she brought the gun to show her teacher, and the other, that a parent had put the gun in her backpack to hide it and then forgot it and the girl didn't even know it was there. I don't know that it makes any difference. I was really impressed with the school: it's a largely-minority, title 1 school, so it wasn't a matters of "these rules aren't for nice white kids!" or anything. I was really impressed, honestly.
I really hope it'd be handled that way, and am cautiously optimistic that it would. The last school I taught at? I'd be pretty pessimistic about it being handled that way.

But I dunno: our entire district is moving much more in a direction of trying to understand student behavior and work to reshape it through less punitive measures, so maybe that school has changed since I was there.

I've never heard of a real weapon coming to this school. Fake weapons, like Halloween daggers? I tend to hold them till the end of the day then give them back along with a stern warning. What kids get in serious trouble for is actually hurting or actually threatening someone, not for zero-tolerance nonsense.
  #130  
Old 01-26-2018, 12:02 PM
Fubaya Fubaya is offline
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I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad.
That's more the fault of manufacturers coming up with new and different opening and locking mechanisms. A grandpa who carries an Old Timer for 50 years would be lost with some of today's knives.

Someone was recently showing me their new knife and after a few seconds falling to get it open, I realized the thing that looked like a rivet might be the trigger for an assisted opener. Sure enough, that worked. Then to close it I first looked for a lock on the back, then a liner lock, and finally gave up and asked. The lock was part of the button for the opener. I tried that and still couldn't close it one handed like I usually do. I couldn't even budge the blade and thought I hadn't unlocked it. I realized that an assisted opener, which I'm fairly unfamiliar with, would have spring tension that might make it hard to close and sure enough, this one had a lot of tension and required two hands to even think about closing it.
  #131  
Old 01-26-2018, 05:55 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad.
I, for one, know how to use one - my grandad was adamant it was one of life's "must-have" basic survival skills, because in his words "you never know when you're going to run into a stubborn saucisson". To be fair he was Auvergnat, their dried sausage is often akin to dwarf bread : equally useful as a food item and as a blunt weapon .

Sadly, his own pocket knife went to some cousin when he died and I never got around to getting one of my own. I deffo should now that I think about it - bottle opener, Opinel and condoms should be about one's adult self at all times. Better to have one and not etc etc.
Schools though ? Hell, the teachers would even insist on dull scissors. As they should have. Kids are retards, teenagers doubly so.
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  #132  
Old 01-26-2018, 06:51 PM
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{...} bottle opener, Opinel and condoms should be about one's adult self at all times. Better to have one and not etc etc. {...}
OFF TOPIC: Flashlight and way to start a fire too.

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  #133  
Old 01-26-2018, 07:52 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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The burden of making a compelling case should be on those wishing to ban them. I haven't seen one yet. Care to try?
Why? The thread was started with the premise that knives should be allowed in school -- so it should be up to the person who made that argument to prove their case.

And so fair, I have yet to see them do so, other than an instance where someone wasn't able to peel an orange. And an alternative was presented, with other suggestions on how to do so.

On the other hand, I have seen people present cases where it would be a bad idea to have knives in school. Scissors, pencils, etc -- a lack of them would be a major hardship, so the risk is worth it. Pocket knives? Not so much.
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  #134  
Old 01-26-2018, 08:10 PM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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Why?
Because school isn't prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn't ban everything that doesn't have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn't have a good argument for banning it. I realize that's a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18.
  #135  
Old 01-26-2018, 08:24 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
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Because school isn't prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn't ban everything that doesn't have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn't have a good argument for banning it. I realize that's a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18.
My wife got to spend 90 minutes this evening shepherding a dozen brownie scouts through a few different activities; afterward, with haggard eyes, she told me how she appreciated my daily work.

Which is to say, your theory about children is just ducky, and I invite you to sub in a local school for a while. Teach kids who have watched older brothers get shot, whose uncles have been murdered, whose dads are in jail, who are experiencing gender dysphoria, who get irregularly medicated for ADHD, who are natural dancers and could easily jitterbug for six hours a day but who must learn math at their seats, who suck on thumbtacks for the stimulation it provides, who eat goddamned leaves on a dare, and THEN come back to tell us what overprotective pantywaists we teachers are.

Seriously, how insulting.

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  #136  
Old 01-26-2018, 09:15 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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Notice how the people (person) advocating for knives has never been in a class room other than as a student. Walk a kilometer in my Bass Weegens and you'll be singing a different aria.

And no, we do not have to show why knives ought not be allowed. The burden is on those who know nothing to prove that they should.
  #137  
Old 01-26-2018, 09:22 PM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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Seriously, how insulting.
I certainly didn't intend to insult you or teachers generally. And I apologize for doing so. I'm sure whatever rules you and your wife have in your classrooms are in place for very good reasons.

I was just explaining my philosophy of blacklisting versus whitelisting when it comes to raising kids and the prohibition of various items they might come in contact with, after being asked. They're going to grow up and be full fledged adults in the blink of an eye. I personally feel more comfortable when kids have been exposed to a wide spectrum of "the real world" before we send them out into it.

Despite coming from different perspectives, I suspect we would agree more than you might think based on this thread. I'd argue that "having a knife on school property" is not at all the same thing as "allowed to play with knives in class" for example. And there's also a huge difference between preschoolers and high schoolers.

Last edited by DrCube; 01-26-2018 at 09:22 PM.
  #138  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:27 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Because school isn't prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn't ban everything that doesn't have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn't have a good argument for banning it. I realize that's a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18.
Okay fine, so that's your argument. Others have, however, put forward some good reasons why allowing knives in school wouldn't be such a great idea. And it's not because they're trying to "protect their wittle soft bodies".

More like trying to avoid any additional hassles -- schools have enough shit to deal with.
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Last edited by Guinastasia; 01-26-2018 at 10:29 PM.
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