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  #951  
Old 04-09-2018, 10:26 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
That actually made me laugh out loud. We have a crumbling infrastructure and Congress can't stop spending money on everything but infrastructure.
Again, not sure where you get your facts, but House Republicans were bragging just a few weeks ago that they added $21 billion to infrastructure spending across the government, with Department of Transportation spending going up by like 40 percent compared to last year's level.

Now, I'm pretty sure that President Trump is going to try to eliminate some of that spending, but I'd say a $21 billion increase in infrastructure spending is a respectable start. If only Republicans would stop cutting taxes that could pay for more roads and bridges....
  #952  
Old 04-09-2018, 10:33 AM
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Yes, of course my idea is terrible, that's why it's going to be what we get. I know it's impossible to see the sarcasm in what I wrote. Grouped chargers with some sort of power line based or near field wireless communication that can operate independently of any external computer would be ideal. An app or website to set default policies and exceptions is fine, but worst case should be the default policies are followed when no external data connection is available.
The problem is that if the data connection goes down, the breaker blows. This is why you don't use anything but a reliable method of data transmission. OR your charging speed goes to crap because the chargers are afraid to blow the breaker, not knowing what their peer chargers are doing.

An industrial serial bus - RS 422 or RS 485 - is what you need to use. I was suggesting ethernet, but for a mass produced product, it's worth the hassle of protocol design to use a lower level bus that has more robust hardware and lower cost of components.

With a dedicated wire, you just set it up once, and then it keeps on working, probably for decades. If electric cars became fully adopted, most residential garages would have a charger on each wall.
  #953  
Old 04-09-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
The advantage for one of the options identified by echoreply(distributed solar and local storage) is that it doesn't depend on infrastructure.
For my recently purchased EV, if I charge during the day it's from solar, and at night it's from the Powerwalls. With the tax credits and local credits, my powerwalls will yield a net credit (they're paying me). I didn't know about the local credit and if I did I would have bought more!
  #954  
Old 04-09-2018, 02:28 PM
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With a dedicated wire, you just set it up once, and then it keeps on working, probably for decades. If electric cars became fully adopted, most residential garages would have a charger on each wall.
My concern is that they will be designed with the level of care and foresight that goes into the typical Internet of Things device, not that goes into a proper industrial control component (which are also often terrible from a security perspective, if not from a safety and reliability perspective). Yes, they will be handling large amounts of power, but the electricity in a typical IoT 120 volt AC receptacle is still enough to kill you or burn down your house.
  #955  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:25 PM
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Dr S, have you had an opportunity to load up the car with 4-5 adults and see how it performs yet? Both in terms of the suspension bottoming out and acceleration/range.
Just a short drive, but yes. With 600+ lbs of people, the impact to acceleration was just barely noticeable. Still very zippy feeling. We have some crazy speedbumps around the office parking lot and did not experience any bottoming out--that's something that I usually have to be very careful about and it wasn't a problem at all. Obviously I didn't test the handling limits on public roads, but I did take turns faster than I usually would and there was basically no extra roll at all. Can't comment on range since I didn't go very far.
  #956  
Old 04-09-2018, 07:45 PM
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I actually like the look of the fabric better, based on those pics.
As a general-purpose interior material, it actually looks pretty crappy.

I guess there's some kind of shortage as well, which may explain the switch.

I think the main complaint was that it was some kind of bait-and-switch, since at some point the Model 3 website imagery was of full Alcantara and some deliveries weren't getting it. I configured already knowing what I'd get, so I can't work up any outrage.
  #957  
Old 04-09-2018, 07:54 PM
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I know it's not a completely accurate analogy, because we aren't going to charge cars with cell towers scattered around.
Yeah, I think it's a loose but fitting analogy--the point is that the overall context has changed, so the original constraints now seem laughable. We have more of a problem with landline underutilization than overutilization now. And likewise, we'll probably have more problems with electric grid underutilization in the long run, because local and neighborhood generation+storage will be cheap and widespread. And if not--well, that's fine too because it means there will be plenty of money available for grid upgrades.

People don't really get how quickly things can happen as soon as certain thresholds are hit. Not to mention political will as soon as there's a faintest sign of things going wrong. CA changed governors when a few blackouts happened. Hopefully future problems will be solved before reaching that point, but if not then heads will roll and things will happen.
  #958  
Old 04-10-2018, 01:13 AM
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Passed a car transporter with a load of Teslas yesterday. I think they were the cheap ones, and a couple of the expensive ones. Truckee, California, heading east.
  #959  
Old 04-10-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Yeah, I think it's a loose but fitting analogy--the point is that the overall context has changed, so the original constraints now seem laughable. We have more of a problem with landline underutilization than overutilization now. And likewise, we'll probably have more problems with electric grid underutilization in the long run, because local and neighborhood generation+storage will be cheap and widespread. And if not--well, that's fine too because it means there will be plenty of money available for grid upgrades.
Agree. Cheaper batteries, which required by definition for mass market EVs to be possible, would greatly reduce all these grid problems.

If there are never cheaper batteries, EVs will remain a niche product. Though they are almost cheap enough already to build a car around a ~60kWh pack and sell it at Toyota Prius prices. Just need another halving in cost.

With cheap batteries you could sell Samsung brand Powerwalls at home depot. Next time your roof needs replacing, get it upgraded to solar. Or add the panels on top.

The battery banks could act to reduce the peak load on the grid and thus on the wiring. The solar panels reduce the total watts drawn by each house per day. (since it doesn't do any good to reduce peak load if the average load is very high)

The last key element you have to have is communication. The power company needs to be able to communicate "hey, all you battery packs wired in? Please emit <a floating point number> percent of your capacity".

Then the power company would ramp up the request to the battery packs until the grid balances. You do this smoothly and slowly. Battery packs would begin to drop out, charge depleted, if you did this for hours, but you could increase the request if you had to.

This could prevent a brownout and buy you hours for the sun to come up, maybe a whole day to fix a generator.

And worst case, if the grid does brown out, every important home, business, or medical facility would have these battery backups set up as UPS units.

Last edited by SamuelA; 04-10-2018 at 09:14 AM.
  #960  
Old 04-10-2018, 11:49 AM
YamatoTwinkie YamatoTwinkie is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
As a general-purpose interior material, it actually looks pretty crappy.
Yeah, all the people screaming about how they were going to cancel their reservation over the headliner material, and whining about how the new fabric is less "premium" (whatever that means) than alacantra just left me puzzled. Alacantra/micro-suede looks tacky to me. I bet in an alternate universe where it was never marketed as a "luxury" fabric with a fancy name that makes it sound like it was somehow harvested from free range alpacas high in the Andes, those same people would be screaming about any inclusion of that "cheap synthetic suede crap."

On a separate note, I just got my invite to configure too! I figured since I was about ~100,000 in line, I wouldn't even be able to get the process started for another few months, so i was completely surprised when I logged into my account.
  #961  
Old 04-10-2018, 04:06 PM
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Congrats! I assume, based on your estimated position, that you ordered relatively late on 3/31 but still before the announcement? In-person or online? There was a Twitter exchange where Musk apologized for some online orders happening before in-person ones and promised to correct for that. So I think there's been a batch of in-person invites that went out.

Well, keep us posted on it. I'm curious if you have a similar experience to me. Or were you going to wait? The still-available $7500 rebate seems like a pretty good motivation to go with the current config.
  #962  
Old 04-10-2018, 05:10 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
On a separate note, I just got my invite to configure too! I figured since I was about ~100,000 in line, I wouldn't even be able to get the process started for another few months, so i was completely surprised when I logged into my account.
If you don't mind me asking, what sort of options are you looking at for your order?
  #963  
Old 04-10-2018, 05:49 PM
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Yeah, pre-ordered online on 3/31/2016 during the initial live-stream presentation. Not sure if my location (central fl) has anything to do with it, but I seem to be somewhat of an outlier for configuration- I certainly wasn't expecting to see it ready. I had considered waiting until the $7500 credit was almost exhausted, with the intent that (hopefully) more of the early production issues would have been fixed, but after about a day I gave in and put down the non-refundable deposit.

Other than the (currently) mandatory LR battery and interior package, just the regular Aero wheels & paint for me, figured I'd wait on forking over for Auto-pilot until either it stops killing people, or Tesla puts it on sale (yeah, I know they tell you its going to be extra if you download it later, but they'll probably adjust their pricing based on both autopilot adoption rate and entrance of competition). I don't think I've ever even activated *cruise control* on my current vehicle, so not a big loss right now.
  #964  
Old 04-10-2018, 07:35 PM
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Ok, online preorder--interesting. I think a lot of the configuration assignment is based just on where they have delivery capacity. It's pretty clear that the Fremont location is maxed out as far as deliveries go, and I suspect several other CA locations are the same. They may be putting through outlier orders simply because those are the only delivery centers that can handle them.

There's probably also the effect that there are only so many people that want the specific LR+PEP combo. They'll run through those sooner or later.
  #965  
Old 04-12-2018, 05:51 PM
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Nothing surprising to those that have been following along, but Top Gear did their Model 3 review. They liked it. The biggest complaint was just the waiting list.

One thing I worried about slightly before picking up the car was this: would the car just be incredibly boring to drive? I'm coming from a stick shift, and while sometimes it could be annoying (stop and go traffic), overall I liked having something to do. It was something of a game to rev-match perfectly, to correctly judge the right gear for a particular curve, etc. These are not difficult things but it added a bit to the driving experience.

The Model 3 loses those of course, but it adds another: regeneration. Judging how early to let off the throttle so I can hit a stoplight or curve without touching the brake but is also as late as possible is another "game" that adds to the interest of driving, and partially makes up for the lack of clutch/shifter.

Of course, the instant acceleration always puts a smile on my face, too.
  #966  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:11 AM
YamatoTwinkie YamatoTwinkie is offline
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Car and Driver wasn't so favorable, though.

Quote:
Push the Model 3 a bit closer to its handling limits, as we did on our 10Best loop, and the tires give up early and understeer becomes the predominant dynamic trait.
Quote:
while we did not observe any glaring fit-and-finish issues inside the Model 3, the exterior was a different story. Inconsistent panel gaps around the doors and myriad ill-fitting trim pieces were among the worst weve seen in recent memory.
Quote:
There were also some subtle yet annoying rattles and creaks in our test car, which had less than 2500 miles on the odometer.
Quote:
its difficult to gauge exactly how disappointing the Model 3s result is in our real-world 75-mph highway fuel-economy test. Our calculated range of 200 miles is far below the EPAs overall estimates of 310 miles in combined driving and 293 miles in highway driving, but it was certainly affected by the 28-degree-Fahrenheit ambient temperature.
  #967  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:42 AM
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I really do hope that Tesla can address these quality issues. There's nothing that drives me crazier that squeaks and rattles inside a car. I hate hate hate it.

There's a new story about starting Model Y production about 18 months from now:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1HI2ZV
  #968  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:12 PM
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I just got my invitation to configure. If I want to spend $49,000, I can get the car in 3-6 weeks. Unfortunately, I don't want to spend $49,000, I want to spend $35,000 so I'm looking at "Late '18".

The one upside, is this should let me decide if I want all wheel drive or not. It really depends on the price. I'd pay a few thousand more for all wheel drive, but at some point I'd rather save the money and put up with the hassle of swapping snow tires. Or just stick with all season tires and drive sensibly in the snow, like I've been doing for the last 25 years.
  #969  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:42 PM
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Here is my big question, particularly for Dr. Strangelove, and any others who have used a Model 3. Is the premium upgrade worth it?

Here is what the configurator says it includes:
  • Premium heated seating and cabin materials throughout, including open pore wood decor and two rear USBs
  • 12-way, power adjustable front seats, steering column and side mirrors, with custom driver profiles
  • Premium audio system with more power, tweeters, surround speakers and subwoofer
  • Tinted glass roof with ultraviolet and infrared protection
  • Auto dimming, power folding, heated side mirrors
  • LED fog lamps
  • Center console with covered storage and docking for two smartphones
I guess until we see what the standard interior looks like, it will be very hard to say. I want front heated seats, front USB, and an audio system. I do not care about premium materials, heated rear seats, or the glass roof.

This is my math:

$9000 [long range] - $7500 [tax rebate] = $1500 long range, which is worth it me.

$5000 [premium] - $1400 [Tires, timing belt, etc. on current car] = $3500 for premium, which I don't think is worth it to me.
  #970  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:07 PM
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Congrats on the config request! Seems like they're coming through at a rapid rate now.

I agree about the premium pack--without seeing the non-premium model, it's really hard to say.

I do like the glass roof and the (p)leather seats. Those alone are probably worth the upgrade for me (shit, I spent $3500 on a sunroof for my BMW that was 1/4 the size). The phone dock is convenient but actually not "working" for me at the moment, since I had to order the microUSB adapter and it hasn't come yet. It seems nice, though, especially as I generally use Pandora and want the phone to be at least a little accessible. The heated seats have no value to me, and the 12-way adjustment seems like overkill but does at least match my BMW, so less than that might feel like a downgrade. Not sure yet.

The premium audio is perfectly serviceable, though not spectacular. I'd say this has decent value if the non-premium audio is a significant downgrade, though it would kinda suck since it would mean the base audio is not that great at all.

What is your mental threshold price for LR and PUP? If you order the current config, your price will be $41.5k (49-7.5). If you wait for the base version, your price will likely be $31.25k. Are the two packages together worth $10k to you? And if that means not having to fix fix up your current car, that comes down to about $8.5k.

Although I'm not certain, I suspect the debundling of LR and PUP will come at the same time. That is, there won't be some point where you can leave off PUP but you're still obligated to get the LR (or vice versa).
  #971  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:15 PM
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I really do hope that Tesla can address these quality issues. There's nothing that drives me crazier that squeaks and rattles inside a car. I hate hate hate it.
No weird sounds yet, but I'll get back to you in a couple of thousand miles. It is better than the BMW, which came with a weird resonance in one of the door speakers and took a couple trips to the dealer to fix (despite having an easy repro). Nothing like that yet, but it'll take some time for any dodgy adhesive to shake loose.

CNBC got a factory tour with shots of Model 3 production:
https://youtu.be/lOz7cPJQd8E
https://youtu.be/AO33rOofFpg
https://youtu.be/gka9_r-c_rw
https://youtu.be/jQMHEXquK9A
https://youtu.be/Xf0BTZo7q7A

Only a few interesting bits in there (lots of time wasted on junk like "why the April fools joke?"), but it's good to hear that the 2000/wk production wasn't just an end-of-quarter burst (like the 1000/wk in Q4); it was actually a sustained rate.
  #972  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:31 AM
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he says the problem was too many robots, not enough people


https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/13/el...ion-a-mistake/

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  #973  
Old 04-14-2018, 01:02 PM
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Car and Driver wasn't so favorable, though.
I'm surprised the cornering wasn't a little better than .84 G's. Not a hateful number but this is supposed to be a sporty car. Probably feels like a Ford Escape and I suspect that's because of the weight of the car. Bigger tires would improve that. The acceleration is zippy and along the lines of a turbo 4 cylinder only more responsive with the electric motor torque. That .84G number is going to be enhanced (IMO) by the almost perfect 50/50 weight balance. Even if it's not glued to the pavement it will be very predictive and solid when drifting which is what you want. I'd rather have that than a 1G car that breaks loose and spins out because the balance is off.
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  #974  
Old 04-14-2018, 01:51 PM
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I'm surprised the cornering wasn't a little better than .84 G's. Not a hateful number but this is supposed to be a sporty car. Probably feels like a Ford Escape and I suspect that's because of the weight of the car. Bigger tires would improve that. The acceleration is zippy and along the lines of a turbo 4 cylinder only more responsive with the electric motor torque. That .84G number is going to be enhanced (IMO) by the almost perfect 50/50 weight balance. Even if it's not glued to the pavement it will be very predictive and solid when drifting which is what you want. I'd rather have that than a 1G car that breaks loose and spins out because the balance is off.
That is on all season tires. I'm sure all the other cars are also on all seasons, so it is a fair comparison, but I don't think you're going to get over 1g without summer performance tires.

I can remember when I was reading Car and Driver in the 80s, and a .79g was considered incredible. I'm just excited by the increase, not saying the Model 3 should be compared to a 1982 Mercury Marquis.

In my earlier post, I think my math needs to be revised. The actual cost, to me, of the long range options is $9000 - $3750 = $5250, which is difference in the tax credit between ordering the LR today, and ordering the SR at the end of the year. I just can't justify spending $5250 on the LR version. About the only advantage I can see with the LR version is I could drive to Vail and back on one charge. Of course, there is plenty of charging available in Vail, and $5250 buys a lot of lift tickets, even at Beaver Creek.
  #975  
Old 04-14-2018, 02:20 PM
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That is on all season tires. I'm sure all the other cars are also on all seasons, so it is a fair comparison, but I don't think you're going to get over 1g without summer performance tires.

I can remember when I was reading Car and Driver in the 80s, and a .79g was considered incredible. I'm just excited by the increase, not saying the Model 3 should be compared to a 1982 Mercury Marquis.
A 1988 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe pulled .89 on 16" tires which was a little better than the Mustang at the time. I think it's the weight of the Model 3 keeping the number down but I'm not an engineer.

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In my earlier post, I think my math needs to be revised. The actual cost, to me, of the long range options is $9000 - $3750 = $5250, which is difference in the tax credit between ordering the LR today, and ordering the SR at the end of the year. I just can't justify spending $5250 on the LR version. About the only advantage I can see with the LR version is I could drive to Vail and back on one charge. Of course, there is plenty of charging available in Vail, and $5250 buys a lot of lift tickets, even at Beaver Creek.
What's the real world loss of charge over time and does that work into your range requirements. Will you have an ICE car to back it up in which case you don't need the additional range. realistically, you're probably not buying an EV to travel cross country.
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  #976  
Old 04-14-2018, 06:29 PM
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What's the real world loss of charge over time and does that work into your range requirements. Will you have an ICE car to back it up in which case you don't need the additional range. realistically, you're probably not buying an EV to travel cross country.
It is an 8 year warranty to hold 70% of charge. If I'm really unlucky, I'll be at 165 miles at 8 years, which is 75% or original capacity. My 75% of usage requirement is 30 miles (two 15 mile trips) with heat or AC, and going to 60 miles (four 15 mile trips) will cover 98%. That's just beyond the abilities of a used Leaf.

105 miles to Vail doesn't concern me, because there is lots of charging available at the destination. Someplace like Leadville, with no guaranteed charging, will require more planning. Mostly just topping up before leaving I-70, or on the way home.

Playing with Tesla's route calculator, it looks like the only likely destination that isn't workable is Yellowstone National Park. Much further than that, and I'd rather fly. Also, if it's less than about $.50/mile, renting for a road trip is a good option.

Just to make sure I'm not too green, I'll have an ICE vehicle that gets 13MPG.
  #977  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:56 PM
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Just got back from a little mini road trip. Fantastic! I love this car.

There's a local road that motorcycle and performance car enthusiasts head to called Skyline Blvd. Getting to there means taking some 25-35 mph windies, and the road itself varies from 25 to 55 mph. Nice scenery and a nice mix of curves. Anyway, the Model 3 performed flawlessly; the regeneration is really pleasant to drive with, and the complete lack of body roll makes the curves a breeze.

Obviously, I didn't press the car to its limits (gotta watch out for bicyclists and crap), but regardless, it has a great overall feel. It doesn't handle like a frikkin' Escape. As echoreply said, the lowish skidpad score is almost certainly a function of the tires (all season and low rolling resistance).

Normally, Skyline is a gas hog since there is so much braking involved--I think a standard ICE car would be lucky to break 10 mpg on a typical drive. In the Model 3, there was no noticeable impact on efficiency. A hybrid would show some gains here but probably not at the same level unless the driver went very easy on the accelerator.

I took Hwy 280 on the way back and exercised Autopilot a lot. It's really a perfect use case: lots of well-marked lanes, not too much traffic, no construction zones, etc. And so of course it works great. It really does reduce the load and allow me to spend more time on spatial awareness, etc. Any driving involves allocating mental resources: short-range positioning, scanning the mirrors, looking farther down the roadway, etc. These are competing resources, so less mental energy spent on steering and acceleration/braking means more on more "strategic" factors. My only real complaint here is that it complains about holding the steering wheel too easily--that is, it requires too much force. I tend to hold the wheel near the bottom with a light touch, and this was enough for it to complain. I had to move my hand up a bit so that gravity provided enough force.

There is a bit more road noise than would be ideal. It's probably a little worse than an average car. On smooth roads it's fine but on (say) rough concrete it's a bit louder than it should be. There's probably some tradeoff here between noise and decent roadfeel--something the Model 3 is great at. The suspension feels tuned to not particularly favor any one frequency. This is one thing that I really don't like about a lot of cars (not BMW): the suspension doesn't just reduce the amplitude of the vibrations, it muffles them as well. It's like hearing a conversation through a closed door: it's quieter, but it also muffles the sounds, making the conversation impossible to hear. The Tesla and BMW suspensions feel tuned to just make the road quieter but not preferentially muffle high frequencies. This has the effect of making some roads rougher-feeling but gives a better overall roadfeel (IMHO).
  #978  
Old 04-15-2018, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Obviously, I didn't press the car to its limits (gotta watch out for bicyclists and crap), but regardless, it has a great overall feel. It doesn't handle like a frikkin' Escape. As echoreply said, the lowish skidpad score is almost certainly a function of the tires (all season and low rolling resistance).
I'm glad you're enjoying the car but the Escape out-handles it on the skidpads. I've driven it and it's pretty tight. You'll have to be content with looking at it in your rear viewmirror when you hit the straightaways.
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  #979  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:43 AM
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Skidpad sure ain't everything. SUVs, particularly ICE SUVs, have a high center of gravity. There's no way around them having significant body roll--something that the 3 doesn't have.

For all I know--and I'm genuinely curious about the physics here, because I suspect it isn't straightforward--a high CoG could help with skidpad numbers, to an extent. It may well be that putting more weight on the outside wheels (up to a theoretical limit of all weight on the outside) could be an advantage due to nonlinearities in the coefficient of friction of the tires. Whereas an even weight distribution--even under lateral acceleration--could be worse. Or, maybe it's the reverse. I really don't know but I'll bet there's some interesting physics here.

At any rate, the enjoyment of a car's handling can't be summed up in one number. It's the combination of several objective factors and several more subjective ones. The 3 has, IMO, an excellent feel. Maybe not quite BMW level but in the ballpark, and the EVness more than makes up for the rest.

And for what it's worth, it's not the long straightaways that the 3 gains the most ground. It's the short segments between curves where an ICE spends a precious second or two downshifting and maybe spinning up the turbos. I'm already braking for the next curve after accelerating from 25 to 40.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:46 PM
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I'm more impressed with the sound system than I was before. It's actually quite decent.

The previous limiting factor was me streaming audio from my phone. I dunno if my phone sucks, or Pandora sucks, or the Bluetooth connection sucks, or Bluetooth itself sucks, but this method of getting audio to the car is only adequate.

The built-in streaming, though, is great. It's much louder for starters, and I can actually hear the subwoofer kick in.

It would be nice to figure out how to get decent-quality audio from my phone, but the built-in streaming is good enough that I'll probably just use that. The USB port can also be used for local MP3 files, so that might be worth a go as well (I think it supports FLAC, too). Unfortunately, there's no hardwired aux jack.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:09 PM
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The previous limiting factor was me streaming audio from my phone. I dunno if my phone sucks, or Pandora sucks, or the Bluetooth connection sucks, or Bluetooth itself sucks, but this method of getting audio to the car is only adequate.
There are a variety of Bluetooth codes that have different audio quality. On my galaxy S8 I can go into developer options to see which one is being used. I'm curious as to which the Model 3 uses. It's my understanding that the base A2DP SBC is about the quality of a mid-level mp3, but aptX approaches CD quality.

On my home system I can easily tell the difference between streamed Pandora and flac files. It was enough to get me to rerip all of my CDs. In my car, and on my Bluetooth headphones I can't tell the difference.

My guess is the best will be some flac files on a USB stick. Can it do that?
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:05 PM
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Just tried FLAC over USB and it works great! That's probably the way to go, at least for music I own. There are two front USB ports, and I only need one for charging. Just bought a big USB stick for the other port.

I have a Galaxy S6. There was no obvious place where the codec was listed but I'll check out the developer options--thanks.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:53 AM
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I'm glad you're enjoying the car but the Escape out-handles it on the skidpads. I've driven it and it's pretty tight. You'll have to be content with looking at it in your rear viewmirror when you hit the straightaways.
Per Motortrend, the 2017 Escape has a skidpad measurement of 0.81/0.82/0.80 g, depending on the trim level, and figure 8 average g's of 0.63/0.59/0.57.

Per Motortrend, the tesla 3 has a skidpad of 0.87 g with a figure 8 of 0.74 g (avg)

Obviously, all this proves is that car magazine testing methodology can be somewhat inconsistent.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:14 PM
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Does the Model 3 have the audio features where you can basically play anything - just say "Play XXX" and it will find it, streaming, radio, podcasts, etc.?
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:37 PM
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Question on storage space. I've seen that the Model 3 is listed as having 15 cubic feet of storage, but I'm not clear if this is the trunk alone, or trunk plus frunk. Can anyone clear up?
  #986  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
Per Motortrend, the 2017 Escape has a skidpad measurement of 0.81/0.82/0.80 g, depending on the trim level, and figure 8 average g's of 0.63/0.59/0.57.

Per Motortrend, the tesla 3 has a skidpad of 0.87 g with a figure 8 of 0.74 g (avg)

Obviously, all this proves is that car magazine testing methodology can be somewhat inconsistent.
not surprising; skidpad/f8 performance is about grip, weight distribution, and weight transfer. the Escape is taller and has ~60/40 F/R weight distribution, so its behavior is unsurprising compared to the model 3 (48/52 F/R with much of it in the floor.)
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:44 PM
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Does the Model 3 have the audio features where you can basically play anything - just say "Play XXX" and it will find it, streaming, radio, podcasts, etc.?
I tried "play KQED" and it found the correct FM station. "play pink floyd", "play classic rock", and "play freakonomics podcast" all worked as expected. I could not get it to search songs on the USB stick, though, and couldn't find a way to just play from the stick generically.

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Question on storage space. I've seen that the Model 3 is listed as having 15 cubic feet of storage, but I'm not clear if this is the trunk alone, or trunk plus frunk. Can anyone clear up?
I believe it's both. However, the frunk is pretty small--well under 2 cubic feet. So it's not a tremendous loss if you decide not to include it in the calculations. I probably won't be using it much myself since I'm rarely at the limits of storage and the frunk is a bit less convenient than the trunk.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:07 PM
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I have a twin at work...
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:12 PM
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Someday one of you will walk up to the other and say "Oh man, I walked out and thought 'OH HOLY SHIT, what happened to my car!', then I realized it was your car."
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:22 PM
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That already sorta happened. The other day, I parked several spaces away, but he was in the exact spot that I'd been in the previous day. I guessed wrong when I got back to it and spent a minute or two trying to figure out if the phone key wasn't working or if I just had the wrong car. He still had the dealer plates on at that point, and we both keep a pretty tidy interior, so there was really no way to tell the difference physically short of checking the VIN.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:14 PM
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That already sorta happened. The other day, I parked several spaces away, but he was in the exact spot that I'd been in the previous day. I guessed wrong when I got back to it and spent a minute or two trying to figure out if the phone key wasn't working or if I just had the wrong car. He still had the dealer plates on at that point, and we both keep a pretty tidy interior, so there was really no way to tell the difference physically short of checking the VIN.
I guess you can press the "fetch" button, or whatever in the app, and see which one backs up.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:23 PM
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No summon mode yet. But yeah, realistically I can just make the lights flash or honk the horn. Or even just pop the trunk if I want to be subtle.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:17 PM
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Per Motortrend, the 2017 Escape has a skidpad measurement of 0.81/0.82/0.80 g, depending on the trim level, and figure 8 average g's of 0.63/0.59/0.57.

Per Motortrend, the tesla 3 has a skidpad of 0.87 g with a figure 8 of 0.74 g (avg)

Obviously, all this proves is that car magazine testing methodology can be somewhat inconsistent.
yah, I pulled the numbers from Car and Driver which was .85 for the Escape and .84 for the Model 3. Still, my point was that I was expecting more from a mid 13 second sport car.
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  #994  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:07 AM
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They are "pausing " production of the model 3

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1HO1QJ
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:18 PM
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The latest leaked (?) memo is that they will add a 3rd shift.

Did Musk say 5,000/week? He meant 6,000.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:46 PM
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Musk has been pretty clear about the numbers if you listen to the conference calls and other material.

First, he's always indicated that we should expect step-wise improvements in production. I.e, not a case of making 2000 this week and 2100 next week, but rather stretches of one production rate limited by some factor, and then a jump to a new rate after that factor is ameliorated. I believe the current limit is the parts distribution system in Fremont, though there are some indications that it's back to pack production in Nevada. Depends on whether the new German equipment is fully online or not.

Musk has also said (from pretty far back) that he believes around 6000/wk is doable without a new line. This should not be confused with the 5000/wk target that they've been aiming for. 6k is just the (theoretical) peak they can hit before requiring significant additional capital expenditures. 5k/wk is their public target from a while back. We should expect internal "aspirational" targets to differ from external "achievable" ones.

Let's also not forget that even a 2k/wk, the Model 3 is by far the best selling EV in the US.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:57 PM
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Musk has been pretty clear about the numbers if you listen to the conference calls and other material.
And he's been pretty wrong about the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
First I believe the current limit is the parts distribution system in Fremont, though there are some indications that it's back to pack production in Nevada. Depends on whether the new German equipment is fully online or not.
Have you decided what model year goes on your car's registration? Does the DMV just leave it blank? This has been going on for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Musk has also said (from pretty far back) that he believes around 6000/wk is doable without a new line. This should not be confused with the 5000/wk target that they've been aiming for. 6k is just the (theoretical) peak they can hit before requiring significant additional capital expenditures. 5k/wk is their public target from a while back. We should expect internal "aspirational" targets to differ from external "achievable" ones.
I haven't kept up with the conference calls. Was a 3rd shift part of the original plan? Is the extra cost of that shift theoretical or does it go on the books as an extra expense?
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:42 AM
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Have you decided what model year goes on your car's registration? Does the DMV just leave it blank? This has been going on for a long time.
It's 2018. There's no functional difference from 2017, but the year is encoded into the VIN.

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I haven't kept up with the conference calls. Was a 3rd shift part of the original plan? Is the extra cost of that shift theoretical or does it go on the books as an extra expense?
That was not mentioned, but the number was in the context of capital expenses--robots and shit. A third shift would not be in that category. I wouldn't be surprised if that was assumed in the number, since Musk was talking about theoretical limits here, and if they aren't running 24/7, then they obviously aren't at the limit. I'm actually a little surprised they aren't running 3 shifts already, but maybe they're still fine-tuning things so frequently that they need the downtime.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:05 AM
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I can't think of anyone who's having more irreverent fun being a billionaire than Elon!
Mark Cuban?
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:53 AM
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Just got back from a little mini road trip. Fantastic! I love this car.

There's a local road that motorcycle and performance car enthusiasts head to called Skyline Blvd. Getting to there means taking some 25-35 mph windies, and the road itself varies from 25 to 55 mph. Nice scenery and a nice mix of curves. Anyway, the Model 3 performed flawlessly; the regeneration is really pleasant to drive with, and the complete lack of body roll makes the curves a breeze.

Obviously, I didn't press the car to its limits (gotta watch out for bicyclists and crap), but regardless, it has a great overall feel. It doesn't handle like a frikkin' Escape. As echoreply said, the lowish skidpad score is almost certainly a function of the tires (all season and low rolling resistance).

Normally, Skyline is a gas hog since there is so much braking involved--I think a standard ICE car would be lucky to break 10 mpg on a typical drive. In the Model 3, there was no noticeable impact on efficiency. A hybrid would show some gains here but probably not at the same level unless the driver went very easy on the accelerator.

I took Hwy 280 on the way back and exercised Autopilot a lot. It's really a perfect use case: lots of well-marked lanes, not too much traffic, no construction zones, etc. And so of course it works great. It really does reduce the load and allow me to spend more time on spatial awareness, etc. Any driving involves allocating mental resources: short-range positioning, scanning the mirrors, looking farther down the roadway, etc. These are competing resources, so less mental energy spent on steering and acceleration/braking means more on more "strategic" factors. My only real complaint here is that it complains about holding the steering wheel too easily--that is, it requires too much force. I tend to hold the wheel near the bottom with a light touch, and this was enough for it to complain. I had to move my hand up a bit so that gravity provided enough force.

There is a bit more road noise than would be ideal. It's probably a little worse than an average car. On smooth roads it's fine but on (say) rough concrete it's a bit louder than it should be. There's probably some tradeoff here between noise and decent roadfeel--something the Model 3 is great at. The suspension feels tuned to not particularly favor any one frequency. This is one thing that I really don't like about a lot of cars (not BMW): the suspension doesn't just reduce the amplitude of the vibrations, it muffles them as well. It's like hearing a conversation through a closed door: it's quieter, but it also muffles the sounds, making the conversation impossible to hear. The Tesla and BMW suspensions feel tuned to just make the road quieter but not preferentially muffle high frequencies. This has the effect of making some roads rougher-feeling but gives a better overall roadfeel (IMHO).
I lived in NOVA for a number of years, Skyline Drive in the Fall is breathtakingly beautiful, and you're right: depending on time of day/year it was always a good place to "carve canyons".

RE: the road noise. If you decide to add summer performance tires and larger rims, that issue is going to get worse, not better. The Michelin Primacy mxm 4's are very good all season tires, and they're pretty quiet (especially on my 2015 Buick Regal).

LOL @ "I didn't want to press the car to it's limits" due to "bicyclists and crap" should be amended to include "steep cliffs and guard rails".





Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Skidpad sure ain't everything. SUVs, particularly ICE SUVs, have a high center of gravity. There's no way around them having significant body roll--something that the 3 doesn't have.

For all I know--and I'm genuinely curious about the physics here, because I suspect it isn't straightforward--a high CoG could help with skidpad numbers, to an extent. It may well be that putting more weight on the outside wheels (up to a theoretical limit of all weight on the outside) could be an advantage due to nonlinearities in the coefficient of friction of the tires. Whereas an even weight distribution--even under lateral acceleration--could be worse. Or, maybe it's the reverse. I really don't know but I'll bet there's some interesting physics here.

At any rate, the enjoyment of a car's handling can't be summed up in one number. It's the combination of several objective factors and several more subjective ones. The 3 has, IMO, an excellent feel. Maybe not quite BMW level but in the ballpark, and the EVness more than makes up for the rest.

And for what it's worth, it's not the long straightaways that the 3 gains the most ground. It's the short segments between curves where an ICE spends a precious second or two downshifting and maybe spinning up the turbos. I'm already braking for the next curve after accelerating from 25 to 40.
Even with the MXM 4 tires it should have achieved at least a moderately better skidpad than 0.84. My Regal gets the same skidpad rating on the same sized tires in a heavier, more body-roll prone car that has a higher center of gravity. The Tesla 3 really should be having that low center of gravity working to it's advantage with the batteries being somewhat centrally located and in the floor of the car. Having a higher center of gravity is worse for handling, not better. I can't think of any instance where it is.

Comparing to the Escape is just silly anyway, the 3 is a sports sedan and the Escape is a crossover SUV. The only handling element the Escape may have over the 3 is the narrow wheelbase helping to make up for that ride height.

I've read the steering described as "numb" by many critics, and your steering settings just add more weighted steering than anything else.

Curious: under full throttle (remember, there's no "break in period" with this car), how does the transmission bang out shifts? Is the response fairly immediate or does it "hunt" for gears? Speaking of which, I don't even know what kind of tranny the 3 even has...probably not a conventional one.

ETA: summer tires will not only improve your grip, but braking distances as well.
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